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Author: TwinDeltaTandem Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 196088  
Subject: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/10/2001 11:08 PM
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1 Tim 1:3-7
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work-which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.

TDT

WHICH IS BY FAITH! Not knowledge. Or theology. Or rebuke and guilt. Faith. It is the work of God.

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69586 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 12:16 AM
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TDT,

Do you believe Muslims exercise saving faith in God by praying to Allah?

Are their prayers heard by God and answered with salvation?

Will they live forever in the kingdom of heaven with Christians?

J&R

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Author: TwinDeltaTandem Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69606 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 8:37 AM
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J&R,

Did you post this by mistake?

Do you have me confused with someone else?

Do you read anyone's posts before arguing with them?

TDT

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69650 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 12:44 PM
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TDT,

We have read your posts, and they do not quite fit your subject question, so we are confused.

You asked for thoughts on a matter you say you are quite sure of. Why?
And why are you so unhappy that we gave you our thoughts?

Were you just trolling, but not willing to hear ~all~ thoughts?

Is there any reason you cannot answer our plain questions?

Is there some reason you do not want to answer our plain questions?

Is there any reason to continue to be so irritated with us, and drag this out, when simple answers would clarify this entire exchange?

Or is there some reason you just refuse to answer our plain questions?


Confused,
J&R

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69663 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 2:28 PM
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I'm not TDT but I'll answer these questions.

Do you believe Muslims exercise saving faith in God by praying to Allah?

I have no idea and I'm certain you have no idea either. Even if you do have an idea, I give it no credence. Saving faith is up to God and whether or not He wants to answer to the name Allah is entirely up to God.

Are their prayers heard by God and answered with salvation?

That is entirely up to God. Given that God is merciful, just, and loving I have my biases. I suspect God hears all prayers and answers them as He sees fit.

Will they live forever in the kingdom of heaven with Christians?

I think that is up to God as well. I'll go on record as saying that I have no problem with God saving Muslims. Do you?

Did I pass? Or am I the weakest link?

Just out of curiousity, would you two be upset if it turned out that salvation was universal?

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69674 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 3:37 PM
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coralville,

God is very clear in His Word, that the only way to be restored and to have access to Him, is through the payment of our sins; which is death. The problem is, it takes an infinite death to pay for offending an infinite God. Thus, not one of us could ever satisfy the debt we own God for our sins, and so none of us are allowed near God in our filthy sins, for God is Holy.

The only way to be restored and reconciled and forgiven by God for our sins, was for the God/Man, Jesus Christ to die our deaths for us and suffer the infinite wrath of God on our behalf. Only infinite God, in the flesh could achieve such salvation.

Only by the sinner having faith in the work of Jesus Christ in His life, death and resurrection, can man be saved. God says so repeatedly throughout Scripture. Man needs ~God's~ righteousness . . .not self-righteousness to conquer sin and be fit to have relationship with Holy God.

All of these things the Muslim religion denies. They deny that Jesus was infinite God, or the Son of God. They deny the essence of the Godhead, Himself, by denying that God is Triune. They deny that the Man, Jesus died on the cross, or that He resurrected. They deny He was even a good prophet, for His earthly mission did not produce an earthly kingdom or earthly powers; which is remedied by their own prophet, Mohamed, who excels in achievements over Jesus Christ.

God will not consider such blasphemy as faith. God will not hear their prayers. God will not allow them access or reconciliation with Himself, or a place in heaven. They remain in their sins and unbelief.

Rather than preach a gospel of love for all and tolerance of all faiths, if you really cared for Moslem friends, you would tell them the truth of God and His Son, and hope for their true and actual salvation. For God will save some Moslems, just as He has promised to save men out of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues . . .but He will only do so through the means of the proclamation of the true Gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ, found within the Holy Scriptures.

No matter how you ~feel~ about it, God will save who He wills, how He wills, according to His revelation, and because of the work of His Son.

Will you be shocked when you see souls being consigned to Hell? Probably, for you think you have invented a better God than the God revealed in the Bible. Not so.

God is not only love. God is justice. And sinful men will be punished for not believing Him and His Word and for denying His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

J&R

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69682 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 4:14 PM
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No matter how you ~feel~ about it, God will save who He wills, how He wills, according to His revelation, and because of the work of His Son.

I agree. As I said, salvation is up to God. I suggest that how you feel about it is also irrelevant.

Probably, for you think you have invented a better God than the God revealed in the Bible. Not so.

Actually I believe you are the one who has spent much bandwidth telling God what He can and cannot do ("God will not consider such blasphemy as faith. God will not hear their prayers. God will not allow them access or reconciliation with Himself, or a place in heaven."). It seems to me that you are the one trying to define God according to YOUR image. In contrast, I cheerfully admit my unworthiness and will accept God's will. If God wants to save Muslims, conservative republicans, atheists, and even me, that's God's choice.

By the way, what makes you so sure you are going to heaven?



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Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69684 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 4:25 PM
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Coralville, I think one of the things you are saying is that one can't put God in a "box", ....He can't be boxed in by mere people. He is after all omnipotent. Agreed!

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69731 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 8:31 PM
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"It seems to me that you are the one trying to define God according to YOUR image. In contrast, I cheerfully admit my unworthiness and will accept God's will. If God wants to save Muslims, conservative republicans, atheists, and even me, that's God's choice. "

It seems to me that God wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of inspiring the Bible if He just wanted us to ignore it and make up our own ideas of salvation. You say it is God's choice, and of course it is, but don't you think we ought to take into account what God Himself has said on the topic? Why would anyone want to worship and serve a God whose primary communication to mankind is completely misleading, as it would have to be to encompass the expansive view of salvation you say is possible?

You once asked someone if they would be disappointed if salvation is universal. My answer is yes, I would be disappointed. NOT because I begrudge anyone salvation, but because I would have wasted my life worshipping and serving a God who is a liar. That is not a God I would care to spend eternity with, and it is not the God that has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.

God bless,

Rich


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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69734 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/11/2001 8:39 PM
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"He can't be boxed in by mere people. "

No one is trying to put Him in a box. We are saying that when He takes the trouble to reveal Himself and His plan of salvation we disregard that revelation at our own peril and the peril of anyone we convince to also ignore it.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: rev2217 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69879 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/12/2001 12:50 PM
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Jim & Ronda,

God is very clear in His Word, that the only way to be restored and to have access to Him, is through the payment of our sins; which is death.

Yes.

The problem is, it takes an infinite death to pay for offending an infinite God. Thus, not one of us could ever satisfy the debt we own God for our sins, and so none of us are allowed near God in our filthy sins, for God is Holy.

There's a fundamental problem here. This theological viewpoint emerges from a medieval culture in which an offensive against a nobleman was a greater offense than the same offensive against a commoner -- and the severity of an offense against a nobleman varied with the rank of the nobleman, so that an offense against the king was the greatest offense of all. The logical extension of such a world view was that an offense against an infinite being (God) was therefore an infinite offense that merited an infinite punishment. Unfortunately, such reasoning depends upon the fallacious assumption that the medieval social order is some sort of higher law that extends even to God -- thus making God subject to such a law of social order. As it is, this universe and its laws are subject to God -- not the other way around. Thus, the "infinite debt -- infinite payment" view of salvation is suspect at best.

The only way to be restored and reconciled and forgiven by God for our sins, was for the God/Man, Jesus Christ to die our deaths for us and suffer the infinite wrath of God on our behalf. Only infinite God, in the flesh could achieve such salvation.

The fact that only Jesus can restore unity is absolutely true -- but there's a theological viewpoint that considers his union of divinity and humanity to be of most profound significance with regard to salvation. This union has several consequences, ranging from restoring our fallen humanity to God's likeness in Jesus to enabling the resurrection. An ancient hymn expresses the incarnational view of salvation very profoundly:

Let all together praise our God
Upon his lofty throne,
For he uncloses heaven today
And gives to us his son.

He lays aside his majesty
And seems as nothing worth
And takes on him a servant's form
Who made the heaven and earth.

Behold the wonderful exchange
Our Lord with us doth make!
He takes upon our flesh and blood
While we of heaven partake!

The lofty gates of Paradise
The angel guards no more!
This day, again, those gates unfold!
With praise, our God adore!


True Christian faith is not "either-or" but rather "both-and" when we see dichotomies like this. The incarnation and birth are inseparable from the passion, death, and resurrection, for neither could happen without the other. This inseparability is also conveyed in some of our Christmas carols, like "What Child is This?"

What child is this, who, laid to rest
On Mary's lap, is sleeping,
Whom angels greet with anthems sweet
While shepherds watch are keeping?
This, this is Christ the king,
Whom shepherds guard and angels sing.
Haste, haste, to bring him laud,
The babe, the son of Mary!"

Why lies he in such mean estate,
Where ox and ass are feeding,
Good Christians, fear, for sinners near,
The silent Word is pleading!
Nails, spear shall pierce him through,
The cross be borne for me, for you,

Hail, hail, the Word made Flesh,
The babe, the son of Mary!

So bring him incense, gold, and myrrh,
Come peasant, king, to own him.
The King of Kings salvation brings,
Let loving hearts enthrone him.
Raise, raise, the song on high,
The virgin sings her lullaby.
Joy, joy, for Christ is born,
The babe, the son of Mary!"
(boldface added)

If I remember correctly, the fourth verse of "We Three Kings" also has very strong wording foreshadowing the passion and death of Jesus.

Only by the sinner having faith in the work of Jesus Christ in His life, death and resurrection, can man be saved. God says so repeatedly throughout Scripture. Man needs ~God's~ righteousness . . .not self-righteousness to conquer sin and be fit to have relationship with Holy God.

Amen!

All of these things the Muslim religion denies. They deny that Jesus was infinite God, or the Son of God. They deny the essence of the Godhead, Himself, by denying that God is Triune. They deny that the Man, Jesus died on the cross, or that He resurrected. They deny He was even a good prophet, for His earthly mission did not produce an earthly kingdom or earthly powers; which is remedied by their own prophet, Mohamed, who excels in achievements over Jesus Christ.

God will not consider such blasphemy as faith. God will not hear their prayers. God will not allow them access or reconciliation with Himself, or a place in heaven. They remain in their sins and unbelief.


This is true in so far as it goes. OTOH, one can never know what happens to a person in his or her dying moment. Many people who have had so-called "near-death" experiences have reported seeing Christ, often in the form of a bright light guiding the way through a tunnel that led into eternity. If in fact such experiences are genuine, for example, a person who is genuinely seeking God may well follow Christ the Light of the World through such a tunnel -- thus manifesting faith when it really counts. We who remain behind can never know.

Rather than preach a gospel of love for all and tolerance of all faiths, if you really cared for Moslem friends, you would tell them the truth of God and His Son, and hope for their true and actual salvation. For God will save some Moslems, just as He has promised to save men out of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues . . .but He will only do so through the means of the proclamation of the true Gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ, found within the Holy Scriptures. </I.

Of course, this is true of all non-Christians.

And the most powerful witness of the Gospel that we can give to the world is that of our lives, yielded completely to God and lived in faith under the headship of Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's the age-old question that all Christians should ask ourselves from time to time: "If I were brought to trial on charges of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict me?"

(BTW, this question can be turned into a rather unusual -- but very insightful -- guided meditation!)

No matter how you ~feel~ about it, God will save who He wills, how He wills, according to His revelation, and because of the work of His Son.

Rather God saves those who respond to the gospel in faith -- but we have been through that argument before, so let's not go through it again.

Will you be shocked when you see souls being consigned to Hell? Probably, for you think you have invented a better God than the God revealed in the Bible. Not so.

No, I won't be shocked. OTOH, I also know that every person whom God consigns to hell has chosen that eternal destiny by his or her personal rejection of God's invitation to eternal life in Christ Jesus.

God is not only love. God is justice. And sinful men will be punished for not believing Him and His Word and for denying His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Hmmm... It seems to me that scripture says that the saved are no less sinful than the damned....

Norm.


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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69887 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/12/2001 1:36 PM
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Norm,

The gospel is clear and simple . . .

". .He (the Father) made Him (the Son), who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." I Cor. 5:21

No tunnels . . .no bright lights . . .no human decisions . . .

Only righteousness provided for sinners by God:

"Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe . . .being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus . . .Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness . . .that He might be just and justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Romans 4:22-26

Unconditional, sacrifical love and grace from God.

J&R

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69913 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/12/2001 4:17 PM
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rbednarski: You once asked someone if they would be disappointed if salvation is universal. My answer is yes, I would be disappointed. NOT because I begrudge anyone salvation, but because I would have wasted my life worshipping and serving a God who is a liar. That is not a God I would care to spend eternity with, and it is not the God that has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.

The alternative to God being a liar is that your interpretation of scripture is in error.

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69947 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/12/2001 6:50 PM
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All of these things the Muslim religion denies. They deny that Jesus was infinite God, or the Son of God. They deny the essence of the Godhead, Himself, by denying that God is Triune. They deny that the Man, Jesus died on the cross, or that He resurrected. They deny He was even a good prophet, for His earthly mission did not produce an earthly kingdom or earthly powers; which is remedied by their own prophet, Mohamed, who excels in achievements over Jesus Christ.

I too believe the Muslims are wrong on many theological issues. But then, I think that at best, we all have only a vague and approximate understand of the overwhelming Truth that is God. My question is how much knowledge do we have to have in order to be saved? Note that I am not talking about faith, I am talking about information. You claim that the Muslims misunderstand God sufficiently that their Allah is not the true God. Others here have indicated that Mormons misunderstand the Triune concept sufficiently that the God they worship is not the Christian God.

This strikes me as adding a new, extra-biblical criteria to the notion of salvation. Not only do you have to have faith in God, you also have to have a sufficient understanding of God. In other words, faith AND knowledge are necessary for salvation. For those who believe this, what is the minimal amount of knowledge necessary? How sophisticated an understanding of the Trinity concept does one need to acquire? How much of Jesus's historical life does one need to know and accept?

How does one know that the being one worships is the True God? Is it by a knowledge test? Or is it by inspiration via the Holy Spirit? Is it possible to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and still be wrong in one's understanding of theology?

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69966 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/12/2001 8:19 PM
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"The alternative to God being a liar is that your interpretation of scripture is in error. "

Sorry, but with all due respect this is nonsense. Sure there are places where the Bible is subject to interpretation. But there are too many places where in so many words the scriptures say that some will be damned. There is no wiggle room for interpretation when the Scriptures say that those whose names are not in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20) There is no wiggle room for interpretation when Jesus says that in the separation of the sheep and goats the goats will be cast into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons. (Matthew 25) There is no wiggle room when Jesus says that many will be condemned despite having prophesied and cast out demons in His name. (Matthew 7)

If salvation is universal those passages lie.

And if you "interpret" the meaning out of these passages then why even bother with the Bible at all? If these passages don't mean what they so clearly say, then the Bible is gobbledygook. I don't believe that is the case.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 69986 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/12/2001 9:50 PM
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AMEN!

if you "interpret" the meaning out of these passages then why even bother with the Bible at all? If these passages don't mean what they so clearly say, then the Bible is gobbledygook. I don't believe that is the case.


The final authority MUST be GOD. And what do any of us know about God, but from His Word? Thus, the supernatural Word of God, given to man, MUST be the final authority of all things!

J&R

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Author: hermonster Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70023 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/13/2001 1:06 AM
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In other words, faith AND knowledge are necessary for salvation. For those who believe this, what is the minimal amount of knowledge necessary?

Jesus' Short Course on Inheriting Eternal Life (Lk 10:25-28):

"Love the Lord your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and will all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself...Do this and you will live"

:-)

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70032 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/13/2001 8:31 AM
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"Love the Lord your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and will all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself...Do this and you will live"

I agree completely. This is all you need for salvation. All other theology is unnecessary.

Imagine a group living isolated on a desert island. No bible, no missionaries, no televangelists. Can these people still find God? I think so. God has no limits. Will the theology they create be orthodox? I doubt it. But I think they will still be saved if God wills it.

Personally I hope everyone is saved.



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Author: Gassendi Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70363 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/14/2001 5:18 PM
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Sorry, but with all due respect this is nonsense. Sure there are places where the Bible is subject to interpretation.

Consider

I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Colossians 1:20. 19 For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Romans 5:18: 18 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.


Any wiggle room for interpretation there?

http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm

Mike

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70480 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/15/2001 11:45 PM
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Mike,

Scripture interprets itself, and Scripture says much more about salvation than these three verses pulled out of context.

For example, to understand the above one must read:

John 5:28&29 which gives full explanation of I Cor. 15:22 . . .

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth . . .those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."

Yes . . .all dead people will be made alive, but made alive to stand judgment. Not all men will be resurrected to everlasting life, but all those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life, will be cast in to the Lake of Fire. Rev. 20:15

And to understand God's reconcilation of "things" to Himself in Col.1:20, one must also read how much God loves His entire creation ("kosmos") . . .

"Then God saw everthing that He had made, and indeed it was very good. . ." Genesis 1:31a

"For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:19-21

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . ." John 3:16a

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away . . .for the former things have passed away." Rev. 21:1,4

IOW's, the "things" in Col. 1:20 are created ~things~ in the world (flora and fauna) and not just people.

And Romans 5:18 is quickly interpreted and qualified, quantified and modifed by the Scripture immediately following:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made rightous." Romand 5:19

Further qualified, quantified and modified by:

"For if by one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Romans 5:17

"All that the Father gives to Me, will come to Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. . .No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . .Therefore I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to by My Father." John 6:39,44,65

"As You have given Him (Christ) authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him . . .I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me . . .I pray for them; I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours, and all Mine are Your's, and Your's are Mine . .Keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as we are One . . .O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me." John 17:2,6,9,10,11b,25

"I am the good Shepherd, and I know My sheep, and am known by My own . . .But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all . . ." John 10:14,26-29a

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many wills say to Me on that Day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'" Matt. 7:21-23

- - - - - - - - - - - -

So, if by pulling three Scriptures out of the Bible, and attempting to infer interpretation is complete by reading only the three verses, one could easily be misled and lured into the error of Universalism; the belief that all souls will be saved eventually by the atonement of Jesus Christ.

However, when ALL Scripture is read, studied, and trusted as able to interpret itself, one learns, without a doubt, that not all men will be saved universally, but indeed there will be souls cast into eternal Hell who will suffer a second death (Rev. 20:6, 14).

In order to distinguish whom Christ ~did~ save by His cross work, the above Scriptures must be read along with the entire Bible . . .letting all of Scripture interpret Scripture.

There is no other way to know the truth of God, for no private interpretation is allowed by Scripture (II Peter 1:20&21); especially interpretations based upon only a couple of verses pulled out of context from the whole.

To suggest so, is to describe the ground from which all heresies spring.

J&R


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Author: Gassendi Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70513 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/16/2001 1:25 PM
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I put GoldRushes in Italics, DeRose in teletype, and the Bible (when not quoted by GR or DeRose) in Bold

Gold Rushes writes,

For example, to understand the above one must read: John 5:28&29 which gives full explanation of I Cor. 15:22 . . . "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth . . .those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
Yes . . .all dead people will be made alive, but made alive to stand judgment.


DeRose writes,

I guess there can be some question about what it means to be made alive in Christ. A cynic might suggest that some might be made alive in order to stand judgment and be tortured forever. But that's very strained, especially after one's read the surrounding context of this passage and has also discovered what's usually meant by such phrases. It's very clear, I think, that those who are "made alive" in Christ are, as it's often put, "saved."

I'm not as sure as DeRose that the immediate context makes it clear that the universalist reading is right. But he is right about what the expression 'made alive' means elsewhere in the Bible.

Ephesians, 2:4-5: But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Colossians 2:13-14: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

GoldRushes appeals to Rev 20:15: Not all men will be resurrected to everlasting life, but all those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life, will be cast in to the Lake of Fire.

The view that I'm defending is that, if the Bible is literally true, then all humans will eventually be saved. It doesn't follow from fact that some of the dead will be cast in the Lake of Fire that they won't eventually be fished out.

GoldRushes writes, And to understand God's reconcilation of "things" to Himself in Col.1:20, one must also read how much God loves His entire creation ("kosmos") . . .
"Then God saw everthing that He had made, and indeed it was very good. . ." Genesis 1:31a
"For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:19-21
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . ." John 3:16a
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away . . .for the former things have passed away." Rev. 21:1,4
IOW's, the "things" in Col. 1:20 are created ~things~ in the world (flora and fauna) and not just people.


Well, that's all fine, but I don't see how it undermines the point. My claim is that the Bible, taken literally, implies that everyone will be eventually saved.

Col 1:20 says that For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Now to show that this passage, taken literally, doesn't imply that all humans will be saved, you have to show either 1) Paul doesn't include humans among the things that the crucifixion reconciles to God or 2) that a human can be literally reconciled to God while suffering eternal torment.

Do you mean to maintain (1)? The relevant achievement of the crucifixion is that God is reconciled to flora and fauna, not including human beings? Aren't the relevant things described in verse 16:

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.? And don't those include human beings?

If you mean to maintain (2), I'm not sure what to say, except that I think that you are mistaken.

GoldRushes writes, And Romans 5:18 is quickly interpreted and qualified, quantified and modifed by the Scripture immediately following:
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made rightous." Romand 5:19


Here, I suspect that you haven't read on the link. DeRose writes,

[O]ne could plausibly claim that while v. 19 doesn't strictly imply that fewer than all will be made righteous, it does strongly suggest this. Reply: But even the suggestion of fewer than all disappears when we look at the NIV's translation of v. 19. (Above is the RSV translation.) The NIV translates as follows:

19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The key difference, for our present purposes, between the translations is between the RSV's "many" and the NIV's "the many." To say that the many will be made righteous, while it doesn't imply that all will be made righteous, neither does it imply, nor even suggest, that fewer than all will be. In fact, v. 19, translated the NIV's way, especially following on the heels of 18, seems to suggest, if anything, a positive answer to the question of whether all are covered, turning v. 19 from something that counts a bit against a universalist reading of v. 18 to a verse which, if anything, reinforces the universalist implications of v. 18. My experts have informed me that the original Greek here is like the NIV, and unlike the RSV, in that there is not even a suggestion carried by 19 that fewer than all will be made righteous. It's no doubt in response to such considerations that the revision of the RSV, the NRSV, follows the NIV in using "the many" rather than "many." (But it was worth first presenting the RSV translation because many use English translations of the Bible, which, like the RSV, employ the inferior translation of this phrase.)


The point of verse 19 is a comparison of Adam and Christ and the ability of a single person to get others in and out of trouble. Who are 'the many' who were made disobedient by Adam's sin? All humans (we may set aside worries about Eve and Mary). If 'the many' refers to the same thing in the second half of the verse (and why shouldn't it?), then verse 19 supports universalism as well.

GoldRushes quotes Romans 5: 17For if by one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

OK, but who is it who will receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness? The next verse tells us that the answer is all men: Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.

Gold Rushes quotes John 17:2, which is worth looking at (along with the previous verse) since it seems to me to be a good universalist passage:

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

To whom is the Son supposed to give eternal life? To all whom the Father has given him. I take it that the natural way to take the passage is that the Father is giving people to the Son and not the other way around. (The other passages that GoldRushes quotes confirms this.)

Whom has the Father given the Son? This is the crucial question for this and the other passages from John that GoldRushes quotes. I take it that the answer is 'all people'. When the Father gives authority over all people to the Son, he gives all people to the Son. From the passage, it certainly doesn't seem like the Father is holding back on the Son.

In John 10:26, Jesus tells some Jews that, since they aren't his sheep, they the don't believe and in verse 28, he says that all of his sheep will have eternal life. Will they eventually believe? Will they eventually become his sheep? In order to tell against universalism, the passage would have to imply that they won't, but it doesn't. Romans 11:25-27 implies that all Jews will eventually be saved (including, presumably, the one Jesus said weren't his sheep): I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[6] my covenant with them when I take away their sins."[7]


GoldRushes quotes Matt 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many wills say to Me on that Day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

It's a good problematic text for the universalist. Suppose we decided to read scripture by scripture and tried to make this passage compatible with I Corinthians 15:22, Colossians 1:20, and Romans 5:18. Is there any way we could do it while still interpreting Matt. 7:21-23 literally and reasonably. The universalist who bases his view on a literally interpretation of the Bible has to say that on the day of judgment many will be damned to punishment for a very long time, though not forever. (Look at DeRose for details) Given that background, it would be reasonable to take Jesus as saying that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven on that day of judgment. Many evil-doers will be turned away, and turned away for a long time, but not turned away forever.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I don't believe that everything in the Bible is literally true. I do believe that if everything in the Bible were literally true, then all will be made alive in Christ, reconciled with God, and made righteous.

Mike



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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70515 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/16/2001 2:34 PM
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Mike asked:

OK, but who is it who will receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness?

Those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. The elect. Souls saved by the grace of God "out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation . ." Rev. 5:9b&7:9

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." Eph. 1:3&4

Whom has the Father given the Son?

Those children under the Covenant of Grace. The "children of promise" will receive and share the kingdom of God with Christ and His everlasting inheritance.

For you see, there are two kinds of people and two covenants from God.

God cursed the seeds (offspring) of the devil, and they became "children of bondage", for they are enslaved to theirs sins and Satan.
(See Genesis 3:15)

At the same time, God promised He would send the Seed of woman (the Messiah; Savior; Jesus Christ), to crush the head of the devil, and those found in Him. (See Genesis 3:15) again.

This antithesis between the two peoples; the "children of bondage" at enmity with the "children of promise" is seen immediately in Cain and Abel. Later in Ishmael in contrast to Isaac. Esau in contrast Jacob. Saul fighting David. etc.etc.

The "children of promise" are all those God saves by His grace, through faith in His Son.

"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. . .So then brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Gal. 4:28, 31

Christians are born of faith, and thus are of the Spiritual Seed that came from Abraham; the promised Savior. (Read Romans 4:12-5:2, and Romans 9:11)

The "children of bondage" are all the rest of humanity, not found written in the Book of Life, about whom the Scriptures say:

" . .'Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.'" Gal. 4:30

We suggest you read the entire portion of Galatians 4:21-31. It makes the "Universalistic" theory untenable.


Many evil-doers will be turned away, and turned away for a long time, but not
turned away forever.


You are forced to declare this untruth in attempt to uphold your faulty speculation, but you contradict Scriptures by doing so. For example, the Scriptures clearly teach the following in regard to wicked, lost souls . . .

"These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit; twice dead (see Rev. 20:6,14), pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever." Jude 12&13

"Then He (Christ) will say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41

"The devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever . . .And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:10,15

"Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no shall pass through it forever and ever." Isaiah 34:9-10 (The entire chapter of Isaiah 34 reveals the judgment of God against the unsaved, wicked men of all nations of the world, with a final comparison of the land that the "children of promise" will inherit in vss 16&17)

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I don't believe that everything in the Bible is literally true.

Neither do we take the entire Bible literally. Much is poetic, figurative, parabolic and/or symbolic. However, we believe every Word of God is truth, and that Scripture interprets Scripture, and thus infallible and without error.

And Scripture teaches that only those found in Jesus Christ, with their names registered in heaven, will receive the Covenant of Grace and the promises of eternal life from God. Else, why would Jesus Himself say,

" . . .Rejoice because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20b

There will not be a singular book with every soul's name written in it, for there are many other books containing all the wicked works of the "children of "bondage", by which they will be judged and cast into eternal punishment which is the second death.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead (in sins) were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." Rev. 20:12&13

Only those found safe and saved IN JESUS CHRIST, having their names written in ~His~ Book of Life, will be spared this judgment . . .For Jesus Christ has already suffered the wrath of God on their behalf, and been judged by God in stead of the "children of promise"; those who placed their faith in His works and His righteousness, rather than their own.

J&R



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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70564 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 1:14 PM
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"Scripture interprets itself, and Scripture says much more about salvation than these three verses pulled out of context."

Thanks, J&R, I was going to reply to that but you have done so more eloquently and comprehensively than I would have managed.

God bless,

Rich

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Author: Rizzo21 Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70568 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 2:03 PM
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There is no wiggle room for interpretation when Jesus says that in the separation of the sheep and goats the goats will be cast into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons. (Matthew 25) There is no wiggle room when Jesus says that many will be condemned despite having prophesied and cast out demons in His name. (Matthew 7)

And if you "interpret" the meaning out of these passages then why even bother with the Bible at all? If these passages don't mean what they so clearly say, then the Bible is gobbledygook.


Couldn't agree more!

What else can you say about, for example, Matthew 7? That Jesus REALLY says "....that LESS will be condemned...." and hope that all Islamic followers, Hindus, New Agers, Christians, etc. will be singing Kumbaya together in Heaven?

Look, I don't think I have it all together by a long shot but I check my behavior and beliefs against the book that I have put my trust in (the Bible). If something the Bible says is inconvenient to me, I don't try to bend, twist, change or mold it so that I can somehow feel better about doing something my FLESH is pulling me into.

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70572 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 2:30 PM
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There is no other way to know the truth of God, for no private interpretation is allowed by Scripture (II Peter 1:20&21); especially interpretations based upon only a couple of verses pulled out of context from the whole.

I'm confused. Where in 2 Pet 1:20-21 is there any forbiddence of private interpretation of the Bible? Those verses refer to the origion of prophecy, not the reading of the entire Bible. I see a huge, clear distinction.

I don't understand how any person could possibly read the Bible without bringing to bear his own interpretation of it, nor do i think anyone ever has.

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70573 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 3:24 PM
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Bon,

It is the office and ministry of the Holy Spirit to teach the Holy Scriptures; thus there will only be one Godly revelation; thus truth is declared directly to the heart and mind of man ~from God~ under His authority and infallible wisdom. (I Cor. 2:9-16, John 16:7-15)

It is this one, absolute truth, that unites saints of like minds, for "There us one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all . . ." Eph. 4:3-6

Christian minds are still fallible; thus we must study with the "mind of Christ", which is ours, only through the Spirit's indwelling. (I Cor. 2:16). Scripture should be approached, read and studied in earnest prayerfulness, open hearts and minds, asking in faith for God to reveal His absolute truth to us according to His will.

Teaching of any portion of the Word, direct through the Holy Spirit, will not vary in interpretation. And any conclusions, if from Him, will always be explained and supported with the rest of the Scriptures.

If there is a variance of interpretations between men, it will be due to men coming to Bible study with sinful presuppositions and reading things into the Word of God, or by sinful men taking away from the Word of God in their attempts to alter and reinvent God to their liking; all without diligently testing their views to see if they hold up under the scrutiny of the entire Scriptures.

Again, we say, Christians may differ in the ~amount~ of truth they may have acquired, depending on how long they have walked in Christ and studied the Bible . . .but the truth that God Himself has revealed, even if only a tiniest portion, is absolute truth of infinite ~quality~ when it accords with all the Word of God. The Christian can rest upon the objective reality of God's revelation of Himself to mankind, when it is delivered to the soul through the Spirit of God.

For God is not the author of confusion . . .(I Cor. 14:33)

J&R




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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70578 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 4:39 PM
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J&R,

I think you have some good points, but i'm still not positive i entirely understand what you're saying. I want to be clear on that, so we don't just talk past one another, all the time missing what the other actually means.

I agree with you that there is one perfect God, and He has ordained one perfect truth for this world. I do not believe that one "truth" can be "right" for one person while another, completely opposite and irreconcilable "truth" is "right" for another person. If you believe one thing about God and His plan for mankind, and i believe something completely different, then one or both of us is wrong, and God's truth must be found somewhere in between our views or elsewhere.

So, i do not believe that personal interpretation is "ok" in the sense that we can simply put our own spin on God's truth and claim that it equally as valid as what God Himself ordained. I think the three of us are all in complete agreement up to this point, correct?

I guess where i depart from the two of you is the "obviousness" of God's perfect truth witnessed to in the Bible. I don't believe that every truth God desires for mankind to comprehend is made self-evident in the Bible. Let's set aside the inerrancy debate for a moment, because i believe something significantly different from you on that topic. Simply for the sake of this discussion, i'll go along with you and make the assumption that the Bible is inerrant in all that it affirms. Even for those who believe that to be true, discerning God's will for every situation we encounter is no easy task.

My primary assertion here is that it is impossible for any human to read the Bible without arriving at a "personal interpretation" of scripture. I do not believe it is possible for the two of you nor for any other person on earth to read the Bible completely objectively and discern God's perfect truth. You have the lens of your life experiences which color your reading.

Please take a look at the poll on the evangelical perspectives on inerrancy that is linked to in both postings of the FAQ. Here's the link:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15620615

You'll notice that only about 30% of posters on CF believe in "Complete Inerrancy." Which of course means 70% believe Christians must make some kind of judgement call with regards to the Bible. We have to study to attempt to answer questions such as "Why was this book written? What does the purpose seem to be? Who was the original intended audience? How did it apply to them? How does it apply to me?" Many other questions should be raised and answered if possible.

For example, regarding the numerous laws in Leviticus. The simple fact that you believe Christians are not bound by the laws ragarding facial hair is evidence that you interpret the Bible. You've answered many of the questions above, and no doubt some of your own, and come to the conclusion that those laws do not apply to modern Christians in a strict, literal sense. That's exactly what i am referring to when i say we interpret the Bible.

Of course it would be wonderful if we all just intuitively knew God's will, but that's not the case. We are imperfect animals reading an imperfect document. Even though you believe we are imperfect animals reading a perfect document, you cannot lightly dismiss your own imperfection in your attempts to discern God's truth as revealed in the Bible.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70579 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 5:02 PM
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<<Again, we say, Christians may differ in the ~amount~ of truth they may have acquired, depending on how long they have walked in Christ and studied the Bible . . >>

So if someone is old and have studied the Bible a lot they are more accurate than someone who just read it for the first time.

This is not true. I have heard truth from a Christian that was still drip drying from the Baptistry and absurd doctrines from gentlemen who had studied the scriptures diligently for many years. The elderly gentleman had relied on his teachers, church leaders and commentaries for so long that he no longer looked for truth ... he thought he knew the truth. He studied just to know the scriptures better.

We should study the scriptures in order to draw closer to Jesus and the Father! To seek truth even if we are wrong. Many study the scriptures to prove they are right. And they succeed in their goal and lose the Truth in the process.



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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70581 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 5:53 PM
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Our God is a mighty God. When, out of His unconditional love, He sent His Son to die for our sins, He told us we would not perish if only we would believe in the Son. When the Son was crucified, He paid with His blood the debt for all sins for all time. When the Son departed for heaven, He left with us the helper: the Holy Spirit.

The Truth of God and Jesus is testified to, not by the scriptures, but by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

When we give our witness, it is not to the power and truth of the scriptures, but instead, we give witness that through the Power of the Holy Spirit is revealed to us the salvation given by our Lord Jesus Christ, given freely to all those who believe.

The scriptures are given by the inspiration of God, and are "useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.*" Notice it does not say "salvation," which I believe we all recognize comes by grace through faith.

For some reason, I sometimes have a difficult time keeping that ol' Holy Spirit in my head and heart. Anytime I find myself struggling with doctrine, apologetics, righteousness, temptation, weakness, pride, etc. it's invariably because I have not surrendered myself completely to the immeasureable power of the Holy Spirit.

We can talk and argue and discuss Holy Scriptures until we're blue in the face, but in this age, it's really the Holy Spirit who is our mediator and our help in times of need. It's really the Holy Spirit who will work a miracle in our hearts and render our eyes and ears receptive to the Truth in the scriptures.

In the next age, it is the Messiah who will rule with us for 1,000 years.

In the final age, after Armageddon, it is our God to whom we will be redeemed by the Lamb. The Book of Life will be opened and God will judge mankind. Those judged worthy will be made anew and will dwell in the New Jerusalem with God forever. Hallelujah!

Urban

*http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2TIM+3:16-17&language=english&version=NKJV&showfn=off

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Author: Gassendi Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70585 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:03 PM
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Jim, Ronda, and I gave different answers to the questions

who is it who will receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness?

and

Whom has the Father given the Son?

May I say in defense of my readings that they are based on either the verse in question or on the verse after the verse in question?

Jim and Ronda refer to various conflicts in the Bible, between the children of Even and the children of the Serpent, between Cain and Abel, between Ismael and Isaac, between Esau and Jacob, and Saul and David.

None of these passages are inconsistent with Paul's assertions that, eventually, all will be made alive in Christ, reconciled with God, and made righteous, so none of these passages require a reinterpretation of I Corinthians 15:22, Colossians 1:20, or Romans 5:18.

Jim and Ronda suggest that I read the entire portion of Galatians 4:21-31. It makes the "Universalistic" theory untenable.

I don't believe that it does. It does imply that those are born in accordance with spirit are free and those that those born in accordance with flesh are slaves, and that the children of flesh won't inherit with the children of the spirit. But that's compatible with the children of the flesh eventually being reconciled to God, as Col. 1:20 implies.

I suggested:
Many evil-doers will be turned away, and turned away for a long time, but not turned away forever.

Jim and Ronda replied:
You are forced to declare this untruth in attempt to uphold your faulty speculation, but you contradict Scriptures by doing so.


You told me that I ought interpret scripture by scripture, and I was just trying my hand at that.

As for the parable of sheeps and goats in Matthew, and John's dream in Revelation, you might find what DeRose has to say on the subject interesting.

As for the book of Jude, two things are worth noting. First, it's a metaphor. Those who defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile angels are compared to planets traveling through the darkness. Second, the word you translate as 'for ever' can also be translated as 'for ages'. See: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1008657259.html and http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

As for Isaiah 34:9:9-10, what is said to burn forever are the streams and soil of Edom, not the wicked. You don't deny that at Romans 11:26, Paul says that all of Israel will be saved, I presume. (In any case, Isaiah 34 needs to be reconciled with Isaiah 35, describing the restoration of Zion.)

I don't really expect to convince you. I just think that it's a remarkable, little known, fact that there's good evidence for universalism in the Bible. If your interpretation is entirely guided by the Holy Spirit, then, of course, your interpretation is right. But when Rich denied that there was any room for interpretation here, he was, I believe, mistaken.

Mike


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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70586 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:14 PM
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Bon,



I agree with you that there is one perfect God, and He has ordained one perfect truth for this world. I do not believe that one
"truth" can be "right" for one person while another, completely opposite and irreconcilable "truth" is "right" for another person.


Absolute means, "perfect", "complete; whole", "not mixed; pure", "not limited", "not conditional", "unrestricted", "positive", "certain", "definite" (according to Webster's).

The objective reality of God's truth is absolute. There is no such thing as an "opposite truth" when you speak of the truth of God.

So matter what man makes of God's truth, or how sinners and the devil attempt to twist or alter God's truth, it does not change. Truth is immutable because God is immutable. Nothing or no one can (successfully) oppose or eliminate the truth of God found in the Holy Scriptures. The absolute truth of God is eternal and it is written down in the Bible as God's revelation of Himself.

If this absolute truth is not believed by persons, those persons are wrong and condemned, and God's truth is still absolutely right.

If
you believe one thing about God and His plan for mankind, and i believe something completely different, then one or both of us is
wrong,


This is so.


and God's truth must be found somewhere in between our views or elsewhere.

Why do you think God's truth must compromise or arbitrate ~our~ differences? God is not a referee of human opinion or interpretations.
If you and we differ, all of us must go to God's Word and find the absolute truth . . .looking for ~God's~ final answer, and not looking to establish a middle ground.

When two men differ, both may be wrong in God's sight. When two men differ, one may be wrong and one may be right in God's sight. When two men differ, never are they both right in God's sight, (one or both will ~always~ be wrong) for there is only one Godly, absolute truth.


So, i do not believe that personal interpretation is "ok" in the sense that we can simply put our own spin on God's truth and claim
that it equally as valid as what God Himself ordained. I think the three of us are all in complete agreement up to this point, correct?


We agree that personal spin is useless, dangerous and not allowed.

I guess where i depart from the two of you is the "obviousness" of God's perfect truth witnessed to in the Bible. I don't believe that
every truth God desires for mankind to comprehend is made self-evident in the Bible.


Actually, we do not differ with you on this point. The Bible can be quite "veiled" to those who are perishing. Illumination of the truths contained in Scripture are doled out by the Holy Spirit, according to grace and the purposes and timing of God, and God can withhold His truth from being understood. God is sovereign over all things, including the teaching of His Word. That is why we said one must approach Scripture in reverance by faithful prayer and petition that the Holy Spirit would open it up to one's mind and heart. Learning the Scriptures is not an exercise of the flesh, but a privilege of the soul and spirit.

Let's set aside the inerrancy debate for a
moment, because i believe something significantly different from you on that topic. Simply for the sake of this discussion, i'll go
along with you and make the assumption that the Bible is inerrant in all that it affirms. Even for those who believe that to be true,
discerning God's will for every situation we encounter is no easy task.


Bible study and learning the will of God is a life-long pursuit, for sure!

My primary assertion here is that it is impossible for any human to read the Bible without arriving at a "personal interpretation" of
scripture. I do not believe it is possible for the two of you nor for any other person on earth to read the Bible completely
objectively and discern God's perfect truth. You have the lens of your life experiences which color your reading.


Indeed, you are correct. That is what is called "presupposition". All of us come to the Bible with cluttered minds that are filled with much sinful garbage and distracting data. All of us will come to self centered interpretations and conclusions that are the result of our circumstances, backgrounds and finite thinking and reasoning powers . . .but we must not indulge this!

We must take all our "conclusions" and test them against the bulk of Scripture. Our ideas and interpretations MUST stand the scrutiny of every other passage in the Bible, in order for them to stand according to the mind of Christ and the will of God.

Please take a look at the poll on the evangelical perspectives on inerrancy that is linked to in both postings of the FAQ. Here's the
link:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15620615

You'll notice that only about 30% of posters on CF believe in "Complete Inerrancy." Which of course means 70% believe
Christians must make some kind of judgement call with regards to the Bible.



The Scriptures are not evaluated by men or polls. Men are evaluated by the Scriptures.


God is 100% absolutely right and true, and it does not matter how many persons there are that do not believe it. Their unbelief has never changed God or His truth . . .their unbelief only causes their own condemnation and death. (John 3:18)


We have to study to attempt to answer questions
such as "Why was this book written? What does the purpose seem to be? Who was the original intended audience? How did it
apply to them? How does it apply to me?" Many other questions should be raised and answered if possible.


Agreed. Bible study should consider full contexts to understand application.

For example, regarding the numerous laws in Leviticus. The simple fact that you believe Christians are not bound by the laws
ragarding facial hair is evidence that you interpret the Bible. You've answered many of the questions above, and no doubt some of
your own, and come to the conclusion that those laws do not apply to modern Christians in a strict, literal sense. That's exactly
what i am referring to when i say we interpret the Bible.


The only conclusions we have come to regarding the Levitical laws, is by the teaching of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled all the details and principles of those laws in His own lifetime, on our behalf, and saved us by His grace. That is not interpretation. That is what the Bible teaches quite plainly in the Pauline epistles.

Of course it would be wonderful if we all just intuitively knew God's will, but that's not the case.

We agree intuition would be a most dangerous tool, but we must also remember that the Law (Word of God) has been written on our hearts if we have been born anew from above. Instead of learning God's will from tablets of stone, we have been given a ~love~ of God's Word and will in our hearts, from the Holy Spirit. The Law is no longer an obligation to be met in order to find salvation, but a desire in our hearts and minds to obey, because we are ~already saved!~


We are imperfect animals

Agreed!

reading an imperfect document.

Disagree! "Every word of God is pure" Prov. 30:5a

Even though you believe we are imperfect animals reading a perfect document, you cannot lightly dismiss
your own imperfection in your attempts to discern God's truth as revealed in the Bible.



No, we certainly do not dismiss our own imperfections. Because we have been corrected of errors in many instances. And there are depths and many riches in the Scriptures, we still do not fully grasp, even though we have both studied and taught for many years. One must always be open to the Spirit's correction and learning, through continuous study of the Scriptures. The Bible is an inexhaustible book, for it reveals an infinite God.

J&R

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70587 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:17 PM
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<<The scriptures are given by the inspiration of God, and are "useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.*" Notice it does not say "salvation," which I believe we all recognize comes by grace through faith.>>

Urban those that think the scriptures save them base it on this verse.
James 1:20-22 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
But the Word is living and active. The word was made flesh. to me this verse says the same thing as John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
Hebrews 10:16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

The difference between the scriptures and the implanted Word is made obvious by the following verse:
John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life




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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70589 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:27 PM
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Larry "interpreting" GoldRushs who stated,

"Again, we say, Christians may differ in the ~amount~ of truth they may have acquired, depending on how long they have
walked in Christ and studied the Bible . ."

So if someone is old and have studied the Bible a lot they are more accurate than someone who just read it for the first time.

Read our statement again, Larry. We emphasized "amount" of truth, not accuracy or quality of knowledge.

This is not true. I have heard truth from a Christian that was still drip drying from the Baptistry and absurd doctrines from
gentlemen who had studied the scriptures diligently for many years. The elderly gentleman had relied on his teachers, church
leaders and commentaries for so long that he no longer looked for truth ... he thought he knew the truth. He studied just to know
the scriptures better.


Amen! What you say can be so true!


The point we were trying to make, is that even a little bit of absolute, Godly truth is wonderful. One does not have to have volumes of knowledge to know God's truth! But what portion one ~does~ learn through the Spirit, they can be sure it is infinitely pure and holy.

We should study the scriptures in order to draw closer to Jesus and the Father! To seek truth even if we are wrong. Many study
the scriptures to prove they are right. And they succeed in their goal and lose the Truth in the process.


This is the greatest statement yet on the subject!!!! We agree wholeheartedly. . .yes, yes, yes.

Seeking knowledge of ~God~ should be our motivation to read and study the Scriptures, for Jesus said that
~He~ is the truth! (John 14:6) All of the Bible is about ~Him~ and reveals His Person, love, and grace. (Luke 24:44).

The legalistic Jews searched the Scriptures all their lifetimes, looking for eternal life through knowledge (John 5;39) but never found truth or salvation, because they were not searching for God and/or ~His~ righteousness.

J&R

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70590 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:27 PM
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<<I guess where i depart from the two of you is the "obviousness" of God's perfect truth witnessed to in the Bible. I don't believe that
every truth God desires for mankind to comprehend is made self-evident in the Bible.

Actually, we do not differ with you on this point. The Bible can be quite "veiled" to those who are perishing. Illumination of the truths contained in Scripture are doled out by the Holy Spirit, according to grace and the purposes and timing of God, and God can withhold His truth from being understood. God is sovereign over all things, including the teaching of His Word. That is why we said one must approach Scripture in reverance by faithful prayer and petition that the Holy Spirit would open it up to one's mind and heart. Learning the Scriptures is not an exercise of the flesh, but a privilege of the soul and spirit.>>

I do not think we will know the truth unless we are willing to do the will of God. Only when Christ is Lord of our lives, not in word but in deed.


<<Let's set aside the inerrancy debate for a
moment, because i believe something significantly different from you on that topic. Simply for the sake of this discussion, i'll go
along with you and make the assumption that the Bible is inerrant in all that it affirms. Even for those who believe that to be true,
discerning God's will for every situation we encounter is no easy task.

Bible study and learning the will of God is a life-long pursuit, for sure!>>

I may find God's will for me in a scripture that does not apply to you. That same verse may mean something different in your life. There are differences in interpretion that are valid. However these should not lead to differing faiths or doctrines, just different actions.

For example this verse may lead different people to different actions:
Galatians 6:1-2 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.






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Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:38 PM
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Urban,

All the praises you direct to the Holy Spirit are right and deserved by Him, but please know that the ministry of the Spirit is to call souls to salvation through the means of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the Word of God proclaimed. (Romans 10:17)

The Holy Spirit never works apart from the Word of God, nor is man saved but by the Spirit's washing by the Word of God:

"Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible; through the Word of God, which lives and abides forever, because,
'All flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers and its flower falls away, but the word of the Lord endures forever.'" I Peter 1:23-25

For the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, and the Son is the Word come in the flesh. They are all inseparable from the Father who gave the Word to the Son to give to His people (John Chapter 17). They are all eternal and One in the Godhead.
(Matt. 24:24)

J&R



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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70594 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:43 PM
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J&R,
Thanks! :-) It is nice to be in agreement!
It is a start.
L

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Author: JavaTraveler Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70595 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:46 PM
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Bon said:

For example, regarding the numerous laws in Leviticus. The simple fact that you believe Christians are not bound by the laws
ragarding facial hair is evidence that you interpret the Bible. You've answered many of the questions above, and no doubt some of
your own, and come to the conclusion that those laws do not apply to modern Christians in a strict, literal sense. That's exactly
what i am referring to when i say we interpret the Bible.

J&R said:

The only conclusions we have come to regarding the Levitical laws, is by the teaching of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled all the details and principles of those laws in His own lifetime, on our behalf, and saved us by His grace. That is not interpretation. That is what the Bible teaches quite plainly in the Pauline epistles.



I am not sure you addressed what Bon was saying. Obviously people live very differently from the ancient days. Men do have facial hair, we(as a society) work on Sundays, etc.. Obviously there has been an interpretation at work. The Levitical laws were written for certain monks. Does it not stand to reason that we would not be held to those rules? Is there not a differing of interpretation?

Charlie

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70597 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 6:50 PM
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Larry,


For example this verse may lead different people to different actions:
Galatians 6:1-2 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you
also may be tempted.



O.K. We can go with that explanation, for you are speaking of differing applications for different persons in different circumstances.

But . . .the principle is absolute. It is the eternal principles of God, revealed in the Scriptures that we speak of.

J&R

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70598 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 7:00 PM
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Java,

Obviously people live very differently from the ancient days. Men do have
facial hair, we(as a society) work on Sundays, etc.. Obviously there has been an interpretation at work.



People do pretty much anything they want to do these days. Just because they do things as they interpret things, does that make them right and God's O.T. laws wrong?


The Levitical laws were
written for certain monks.


Monks? Do not know of any "monks" spoken of in the Bible. The Levitical laws were written for the entire nation of Israel, with some specific ceremonial laws added for the Levite priests to adhere to. Are they who you refer to?

Does it not stand to reason that we would not be held to those rules? Is there not a differing of
interpretation?



All of the unsaved world is under the moral Law of God, for His moral Law is eternal. (Civil and ceremonial laws are invalid, because the societies and cultural worship ceremonies no longer exist.) All of the dead in their graves, will be resurrected to stand under judgment according to the eternal, moral Law of God.

Only those saved by the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ, Who, in His flesh, fulfilled all the Law for His people, and died their deaths to satisfy their debt for sin, and suffered judgment and the wrath of God on their behalf, will be spared judgment under the Law of God.

The Law of God has not gone away. Only by the grace of God, are some of escaped from obligation to it!!!

J&R

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Author: JavaTraveler Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70599 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 7:07 PM
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People do pretty much anything they want to do these days. Just because they do things as they interpret things, does that make them right and God's O.T. laws wrong?



J&R,

I was not saying OT laws were wrong, or anything like that. I guess I am trying to figure out what you are saying, and you are dancing around the question. Saying that people do anything they want is not much of an answer. Obviously a majority of Christians see it differently, and have interpreted those parts of Leviticus differently, or no one would work on Sunday.

I have not read many of your posts, what is your religious background? What denomination, etc..?

Charlie



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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70600 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 7:51 PM
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Charlie,

People that work on Sunday, are either in circumstances where they ~have~ to work on Sunday, against their Christian inclinations, but are covered by the grace of God, or people work on Sundays in total defiance of the principle of keeping one day out of seven holy to the Lord as a day of worship, which is not covered by the grace of God.

IOW's those saved by the grace of God, no longer ~have~ to go to church on Sunday to be or stay saved, but they usually really ~want~ to go to church on Sunday, because the eternal principle of the sabbath has been written on their hearts and minds by the same Holy Spirit who saved them.

Unsaved people give the matter no thought at all and violate all of God's Law through their total unbelief and hard hearts, bringing condemnation upon their souls, not so much because they do not go to church, but because they have no desire to worship God at all.

Our spiritual background was Plymouth Brethren (Arminian and Dispensational) for the first seven years after salvation, Orthodox Presbyterian after we learned the truth of the Bible through private study, Reformed Baptist for several more years, and the last I was ordained an Elder in an independent Reformed church out here in the country that had both Orthodox Presbyterian and Christian Reformed Pastors leading the flock.

We believe in the five doctrines of grace (TULIP) and emphasize the Sovereignty of God in our teachings. We also hold to the Reformed views of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Solus Christos, Sola Gratia and Soli Deo Gloria if you are familiar with those convictions. We confess the Apostles' Creed, The Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Canons of Dordt and support the Westminster Confession of Faith, differing on only one important point contained therein.

Jim & wife, Ronda
. . . who post jointly.

You can visit our web site at:

http://www.mlode.com/~jrrush

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Author: JavaTraveler Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70601 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 8:06 PM
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Thank you for sharing the information, I appreciate it. Your website is very interesting.

You really have not answered my question though. While you give plenty of info on people saved and not saved(which was not part of the question). you are not addressing what I am asking.

Perhaps I have not been as clear. I will try one more time. Then I will go back to lurk mode on this topic.

Clearly it stands to reason that society has changed since the ancient times of the Bible. Let's assume for arguments sake, people followed every word of Leviticus. Something had to change, or someone read it differently for us to even have business open on Sunday, or men to have facial hair, etc.. Does that not show that people interpret parts of the Bible differently?


Charlie






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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70607 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 8:38 PM
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"People that work on Sunday, are either in circumstances where they ~have~ to work on Sunday, against their Christian inclinations, but are covered by the grace of God, or people work on Sundays in total defiance of the principle of keeping one day out of seven holy to the Lord as a day of worship, which is not covered by the grace of God."

Third possibility. They keep another day.

God bless,

Rich


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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70609 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 8:43 PM
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Charlie,

Clearly it stands to reason that society has changed since the ancient times of the Bible.


Cultures change, societies change, but mankind does not change and neither does God or His principles (Word).


Let's assume for arguments sake,
people followed every word of Leviticus.



But no man was ever able to follow every word of the Levitical Law. That was the problem.

The Levitical Law expressed the will of God and His righteousness, and men ~tried~ to follow it to earn salvation, but ALL failed to do so. Thus proving that salvation can never come from the sinful flesh.

Something had to change, or someone read it differently for us to even have business
open on Sunday, or men to have facial hair, etc.. Does that not show that people interpret parts of the Bible differently?


Something had to change all right, but the Law of God never changes. His Word, His statutes, His Law are all eternal.

What had to change, was someone being able to fulfill the Law to provide salvation . . .and that required a perfect Man with the holiness and righteousness of God. . .ergo, Jesus Christ came as Savior to fulfill all the Law and righteousness on man's behalf.

It makes no difference how men interpret facial hair. Beliefs or practices in context of facial hair have nothing to do with salvation.

Salvation is God's righteousness being met. Men cannot meet it. Only the God/Man could and did follow the laws to the letter, so that God's justice and demands for righteousness were satisfied. Then, that same Man traded His righteous standing with God for our sins and debt of death. He did for us what we could never do for ourselves, whatever the details or interpretations of the Law. He fulfilled it every jot and tittle, so that we are free from the obligation to do so ourselves.

That is grace.

Grace saves our souls . . .not trimming or not trimming a beard.

We do not have to "interpret" the law of God, because now the Holy Spirit has written it on our hearts, so that we, by the new sanctified nature, naturally love the Law of God, and desire to live in obedience and according to the will of God.

We suspect there is some old "law" that you object to, that conflicts with a practice in your life, and you are looking for ways around it through "interpretation" (or differences, thereof). ???

Well, only one Person gave us the Law. Only one Person interprets the Law. Only one Person fulfilled the Law. And only one Person frees us from the Law. That means that out of love for that one Person, we do not practice what the Law forbids, by nature and affection for the holy Person of God our Lawgiver; for repentance from all sin is still a command of the gospel of Jesus Christ and evidence of a regenerated and heavenly nature.

For where the "seed of Christ" dwells, there is no practice of things declared sinful.

J&R

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70610 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 9:19 PM
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Amen, brother Lawrence. I agree with your post... as usual!
{:~ )

Urban

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Author: JavaTraveler Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70611 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 9:28 PM
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We suspect there is some old "law" that you object to, that conflicts with a practice in your life, and you are looking for ways around it through "interpretation" (or differences, thereof). ???


I resent the fact you think that. I am just trying to make sense of what you are saying. I am trying to find out about interpretation. You seem to indicate there is no interpetating, and yet, people do. All you do is dance around what I am asking. So forget it. I do not need to be insulted.


Charlie
...will go back to lurking on this issue...

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70613 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 9:37 PM
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J&R said: "For the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, and the Son is the Word come in the flesh. They are all inseparable from the Father who gave the Word to the Son to give to His people (John Chapter 17). They are all eternal and One in the Godhead.(Matt. 24:24)"

Yes, I believe we've discussed this point before, and I agree.

Still, I think for those not yet born again, still looking from the outside, it's difficult to see why and how we Christians get so much out of that ol' Bible book. Of course, we wouldn't but for the power of the Holy Spirit. Reading the scriptures without the Holy Spirit is a little like reading the owner's manual for a Buick... and you drive a Toyota! Sure, it makes sense generally and is internally sufficient but, until the Word is illuminated by the Holy Spirit for you (that is, until you first realize that the sinner's life it describes is your life) it is difficult to see how (if at all) the Bible applies to your life specifically and to the rest of all creation.

Another point of clarification: When I see the word "word" used in scriptures, I try to see if the verse makes more sense by using the "word/ element of speech" connotation, or the "Word/ Jesus Christ," i.e. John 1:1 connotation.

Christ's love to the two of you Ronda and Jim,
Urban



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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70614 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/17/2001 10:21 PM
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Urban,

Both Jim and I understand the point you make regarding the Bible being void and perhaps meaningless to those unsaved and without the Spirit of God indwelling, but one night, I was saved from the dark world of the occult, and drawn into the kingdom of God, by picking up the Bible and randomly reading Ezra 9:8.

There is no explaining it, other than the Spirit revealed to me in that randomly chosen and obscure passage, the actual existance and grace of God.

One minute I believed in weird spirits, the next I believed in God, and was ashamed of my nonsensical practices! Only by the power and calling of the Spirit through my reading God's word.

It changed my life, and indeed gave me "a peg in His holy place."

It was so profound a miracle in the eyes of both of us, and life changing for both of us, that we have devoted our lives to getting the Scriptures (and hopefully, respect for the Scriptures) to as many persons as we can around the world, in the hope that such miracles of salvation will be repeated, if God wills!

Ronda

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70634 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 8:26 AM
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Everything you stated from this:
Absolute means, "perfect", "complete; whole", "not mixed; pure", "not limited", "not conditional", "unrestricted", "positive", "certain", "definite" (according to Webster's).

All the way through this:

When two men differ, both may be wrong in God's sight. When two men differ, one may be wrong and one may be right in God's sight. When two men differ, never are they both right in God's sight, (one or both will ~always~ be wrong) for there is only one Godly, absolute truth.

was simply reaffirmation of what i stated in my earlier post, so we all agree on everything there.

So, as i suspected, the degree to which i disagree with the two of you on Biblical interpretation is actually quite small. Yet somehow it seemed to me to be a wide chasm as i've read some of your eariler posts. Always interesting how that works.

I know no one's beliefs on all this will be altered here, but i would like to try to sum up, for academic purposes.

The only conclusions we have come to regarding the Levitical laws, is by the teaching of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled all the details and principles of those laws in His own lifetime, on our behalf, and saved us by His grace. That is not interpretation. That is what the Bible teaches quite plainly in the Pauline epistles.

Well, you're going to have to point me to the verses in the Pauline epistles which state that because Christ fulfilled the details of the Levitical laws, it's ok to not apply the ones regarding facial hair in a strict sense, but we must still apply the ones regarding tatoos in a strict sense. I'm still confused on that point.

Seems to me any time you say "this verse (or law) does not apply to me in the same way it applied to the original audience," you've privately interpreted the Bible. Even if you've used other parts of the Bible to do so, you are still the one doing the synthesis, and since there is no "Guideline to synthesizing the Old and New Testaments" published by God, you must realize you are applying personal judgements to your reading of the Bible. You are interpreting.

Which i of course think is wonderful. I think the nature of the document necessitates that we interpret, so i applaud your ability to do so in a thorough, intelligent manner. Only you claim that private interpretation is not allowed, which i think is a misleading statement. I always prefer that people in general not claim that "X is not allowed" while simultaneously performing "X" as they see fit.



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Author: JavaTraveler Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70635 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 8:31 AM
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Well, you're going to have to point me to the verses in the Pauline epistles which state that because Christ fulfilled the details of the Levitical laws, it's ok to not apply the ones regarding facial hair in a strict sense, but we must still apply the ones regarding tatoos in a strict sense. I'm still confused on that point.



THANK YOU Bon! That was what I was trying to get across(obviously not clearly enough). I hope J&R do not question your sincerity in asking this, like they did mine.


Charlie





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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70638 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 8:39 AM
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We also hold to the Reformed views of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Solus Christos, Sola Gratia and Soli Deo Gloria if you are familiar with those convictions.

Scripture alone. Faith alone. Christ alone. Grace alone. Glory to God alone.

I'm confused again. If you were to hold to any one of those "alone," wouldn't you have to abandon the others? Doesn't the very fact that you hold to them all simultaneously mean you don't hold to any of them "alone?"

With head spinning,

Bon

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Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70644 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 9:49 AM
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Dear Ronda,

I have had a similar experience, albeit not with the occult, but more "run-of-the-mill" sinfulness. *s*

If I can say so without starting an entirely different discussion, I believe that you and I had such a profound intervention by the Holy Spirit because we are part of the "chosen." In those moments, far from the grace of God, and through no merit of our own, the Holy Spirit moved upon you and me and guided us towards salvation. All glory and honor to Him, the almighty Father!

Eph 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

2 Thess 2:13-14 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

In other words, the Spirit moved in you and me, guided us towards the appropriate scriptures because that was God's will, and because since we cannot "receive" the Spirit (John 14:16-18; i.e., we cannot actually see, hear or touch the Spirit, except through the Prophets and the scriptures that record their words 2 Pet 1:19-21) we are by necessity guided towards the scriptures to hear His Holy Word.

That said, if I mailed a Bible to Osama bin Laden, there is no reason to believe that he could read and understand the scriptures no matter how fervently he is praying to Allah right now because the Holy Spirit is far, far from him, IMHO. It is the necessary action of the Holy Spirit which, as you indicate, may or may not come as a result of our exhortation to God for His help. Sometimes, the Spirit comes into our hearts in spite of, not because of our desire that it be so. Think of the experience of Moses, Jonah, Paul, etc. If it is God's will, nothing we or any man/ woman can do will stop it. (Acts 6:10)

Your brother in Christ,
Urban

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70668 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 3:48 PM
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Bon,

So, as i suspected, the degree to which i disagree with the two of you on Biblical interpretation is actually quite small. Yet
somehow it seemed to me to be a wide chasm as i've read some of your eariler posts. Always interesting how that works.


Yes, we agree. And this is often the case on forums such as these. We are all guilty of jumping to conclusions, making rash accusations, becoming defensive instead of edifying, before getting to know each other through more extensive communication.

Sunonun and we butted heads for weeks, before realizing we were really not enemies, but simply expressing mutual convictions, but with different approaches.


Well, you're going to have to point me to the verses in the Pauline epistles which state that because Christ fulfilled the details of
the Levitical laws, it's ok to not apply the ones regarding facial hair in a strict sense, but we must still apply the ones regarding
tatoos in a strict sense. I'm still confused on that point.




O.K. Here is probably the source of confusion between us.

The civil laws that ruled the nation of Israel are no longer in effect, for we do not live any longer as a corporate theocracy before God.

The ceremonial laws that ruled the worship of the nation of Israel are no longer in effect, for we do not worship in tabernacles or temples any longer.

However, underlying all the civil and ceremonials laws, were teachings through shadows and types, of the Messiah promised that would come. God was continually teaching of the Savior, through all the civil and ceremonial statutes, so they are still beneficial for us to study, to learn and appreciate Jesus Christ fully.

The moral law; the ten commandments, is eternal, and still existant today, but instead of being written on stone tablets, the moral law of God has been written on the hearts of believers by the hand of the Holy Spirit. Why? So that we learn to LOVE the moral law of God and its holiness, and follow the moral law of God naturally, from our new hearts and minds.

What has changed, is not the ten commandments and all holy morality, but the obligation to perfectly follow those morals in order to find salvation. It is impossible for any man to follow all of God's moral law perfectly. One slip, and one is declared to be under the wrath of God and deserving of death.

Only Jesus Christ was able to perfectly follow all the moral law. And because He did so, and died to pay the penalty for our failure to do so, we are out from under obligation to the law. The law is still there, but we do not try to be saved by following it. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ who successfully did obey it.

So, we now live by the holy, moral law of God, because we love God and love His holiness . . .not under bondage, but as free men, under the grace of God.

Paul taught:

". .Now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6

The old "letter" of the law demanded our obedience, or death.
The new "Spirit" of the law is Christ obeying for us, and living in us, cleansing and freeing us from the penalty of death and Hell.

So take the example of tatooes. It used to be, if a man desired salvation, he dared not get a tatoo. The tatooing determined whether he lived or died. Now, under grace, a man can get a tatoo, but still have everlasting life, because Jesus Christ did not tatoo His body, and Christ's perfect righteousness has been given to the man. But the man does NOT WANT to tatoo his body, not to gain salvation that way (he is saved under grace), but because his heart tells him that God never liked His creatures marking up their bodies that He created. The saved man follows the Law out of love for God. The man still finds his salvation though, by faith in Jesus Christ . . .not his own righteousness by not getting a tatoo.

Does this make sense?


Seems to me any time you say "this verse (or law) does not apply to me in the same way it applied to the original audience,"
you've privately interpreted the Bible.



Not if we are quoting Scripture to give the interpretation, as we did above by quoting Romans 7:6. That is the Scripture itself giving explanation and interpretation, not Jim & Ronda. We are simply putting our faith in what the Word of God says about following the Spirit of the Law, now, instead of the letter of the law.

If someone differs with us, one of us is wrong, because the Bible does not teach two different truths regarding the obligations or freedom from the moral Law of God. So who differs, must provide Scriptural proof that they are believing correctly and prove us wrong, or vice versa. And we are very happy to be corrected and proven wrong, if we do not teach the Scriptures properly. But it will be the Scripture that will have the final say and be the final authority.

Forbidding "private interpretation" prevents any person from stepping up and claiming "Thus God sayeth", without producing Scriptural evidence that indeed, "God sayeth".

J&R







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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70669 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 4:00 PM
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Bon,


Scripture alone. Faith alone. Christ alone. Grace alone. Glory to God alone.

I'm confused again. If you were to hold to any one of those "alone," wouldn't you have to abandon the others? Doesn't the very
fact that you hold to them all simultaneously mean you don't hold to any of them "alone?"

With head spinning,



Ha! Sorry about that!

This is a handy package to describe our view of soteriology (salvation).

We believe that salvation is revealed only by Holy Scripture, and that all Scripture reveals Jesus Christ, and this Person Jesus Christ saves sinners by grace through faith in Him, to the glory of God alone.

No legal conditions, no manmade writings, no human works, no other worship of deities, but salvation performed by God alone to His glory alone and sovereignly given from Him alone.

There is nothing else to be added to that package. It stands alone while inseparable in design.

Much like the concept of Trinity. One Godhead; three Persons; one truth indivisible, divine and Sovereign over all.

Five truths reveal the one purpose, works and means of salvation of God; each factor indivisible from the whole; but all equal in necessity and intent.

J&R

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70670 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 4:06 PM
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Urban,

You have expressed beliefs of the Reformed Faith precisely.

You have covered four points of TULIP, and only did not mention the Fifth doctrine of grace; everlasting "Perseverance" of those whom the Holy Spirit indwells, which we are sure you also believe in!

You sincerely testified to our faith, much better than we could have, ourselves!

God bless,

J&R

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70672 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 4:12 PM
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J&R,

Thank you for your civil and insightful post. I genuinely appreciate the effort you put into your posts. Your point of view truly helps me examine various issues from a different perspective.

That said, i have a few more questions/points. (of course : )

The civil laws that ruled the nation of Israel are no longer in effect
.......
So, we now live by the holy, moral law of God, because we love God and love His holiness . . .not under bondage, but as free men, under the grace of God.


I do believe i agree 100% with everything you wrote in that whole section of your post. Nice to know we're one the same page there.

So take the example of tatooes. It used to be, if a man desired salvation, he dared not get a tatoo. The tatooing determined whether he lived or died. Now, under grace, a man can get a tatoo, but still have everlasting life, because Jesus Christ did not tatoo His body, and Christ's perfect righteousness has been given to the man. But the man does NOT WANT to tatoo his body, not to gain salvation that way (he is saved under grace), but because his heart tells him that God never liked His creatures marking up their bodies that He created. The saved man follows the Law out of love for God. The man still finds his salvation though, by faith in Jesus Christ . . .not his own righteousness by not getting a tatoo.

Does this make sense?


It does make sense, and is very well put, but i'm not sure i agree, and i'm not sure it addresses why you Jim, as a man living under grace, do not want to tattoo your body because your heart tells you that God never liked His creatures marking up their bodies that He created BUT, you do want to shave your facial hair, which God also expressed His displeasure with in the same book and chapter of the Bible as the restriction on tattoos. So although you've provided tremendous amounts of valuable insight, you still have not addressed why you feel compelled to obey one law but not the other.

I know letting your beard grow is not a means to salvation under the grace brought to mankind through Christ, but as per your explanation, shouldn't Christians want to let our beards grow to please God?

Not if we are quoting Scripture to give the interpretation, as we did above by quoting Romans 7:6. That is the Scripture itself giving explanation and interpretation, not Jim & Ronda. We are simply putting our faith in what the Word of God says about following the Spirit of the Law, now, instead of the letter of the law.

I appreciate your methodology, but i still think you are making personal judgement calls on how to apply scripture to interpret scripture, which qualifies as private interpretation, even though you do not believe it to be so.

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70680 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 5:02 PM
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Bon,

I know letting your beard grow is not a means to salvation under the grace brought to mankind through Christ, but as per your
explanation, shouldn't Christians want to let our beards grow to please God?


How do you know I do not grow a beard? Ha! (. . .Jim)

Any law of God was given with intent and significance, and Christians are to follow the Spirit of the law, while at the same time are not obligated to follow the letter of the law in order to be saved.

I can get tatooes and shave, and still be saved.

I do not tatoo my body because of the Spirit of that law. The context of the forbidding of marking and defacing the flesh, was wrapped up in false worshiping of strange gods. A tatooed man of the O.T. would be immediately recognized as one that worshiped idols and not the true Jehovah . . .right?

Same thing with beards. Jewish men were told precisely how to trim their beards, in order to have an identity as followers of the one true God, Jehovah. Jewish men stood out from the whole world, according to the growth and trim of their beard.

Would I stand out as a Christian today by how I trim my beard, or even whether I have one or not? Or do I find my identity and witness for the true God, through my open confession of faith in Jesus Christ? Is it not the indwelling Holy Spirit that sanctifies me from the rest of the world, and His fruit seen in me that tells others I am a Christian? Am I not following the "spirit" of the beard-trimming, by openly confessing Jesus Christ and witnessing to the gospel?

Same thing could be said about circumcision . . .are Christian men still required to be circumcised to please God? Or has the rite of circimcision been bettered by the rite of baptism, for the eyes of the world? Both practices display the putting off of the flesh, and living in the pure sanctification and holiness that comes from God, so am I not following the "spirit" of the laws of circumcision, when I freely (without seeking salvation through the means)choose to be baptised?

Actually, it all boils down to where the heart is. Do I try to please God by paying attention to every word out of His mouth, and apply my faith to learn the signifance of all His statutes. Or do I still follow the Law to the letter, hoping to be saved in that manner, apart from grace and faith?
It makes a difference, for only by faith can we be saved. We are to cease from works, as God did His works, and rest in Jesus Christ.

Does that mean that because I am under grace, and I have faith and rest in Christ, that I can practice anything that goes contrary to O.T. laws? "Certainly not!" Romans 6:2 As James said, if we are going to profess faith, we must prove it and make our faith alive, by bearing "good works" and fruit of the Holy Spirit, repenting of old practices and lusts of the flesh. Not in order to be saved, but to witness that we are saved already!

J&R



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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70684 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 5:44 PM
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Goldrushs,

< Actually, it all boils down to where the heart is. >

Anticipate applause from Bonhoeffer because this is one of his hot topics.

Rick, the glampig (still searching for appropriate Church history and Scripture cannonization sites)

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70688 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 6:10 PM
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"How do you know I do not grow a beard? Ha! (. . .Jim)"

http://communities.msn.com/5TULIPTheFlowerofChristianity/goldrushranch.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=49

Ha! (g)

God bless,

Rich

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70689 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/18/2001 6:15 PM
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"Would I stand out as a Christian today by how I trim my beard, or even whether I have one or not? Or do I find my identity and witness for the true God, through my open confession of faith in Jesus Christ? "

But the same thing can be asked about tatoos. Israelites were identified as such ny their beards. Were they not also identified as Israelites by their lack of tatoos? FWIW, I view the OT prohibition as falling into the civil or cedemonial aspect of the law, but I'm not positive so I wouldn't get one. But since I'm not positive I wouldn't criticize or condemn a Christian brother or sister who did. Who knows, maybe on this issue I am the weaker brother that Paul talks about in relation to eating food offered to idols.

"Actually, it all boils down to where the heart is. "

I think this is the key. To him who beleives it is sin to do it is sin.

God bless,

Rich



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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70704 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 8:30 AM
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Actually, it all boils down to where the heart is.

Exactly. That's my philosophy of life. Rather than worrying about the details of tattoos, beards, shellfish, and which animals are clean and unclean, i do my best to focus my heart on God. The sole question i ask to determine whether any action is sinful or not is, "Is this for God's glory, or mine?" Sadly, most of what i do falls into the latter.

I can get tatooes and shave, and still be saved.

I do not tatoo my body because of the Spirit of that law.......
Same thing with beards.


Ok, once again, let me thank you for the effort you are putting into these posts. I really do appreciate what you've said on this matter. But at the moment, i'm feeling a bit dense in the noggin. I understand what you're saying in general about the Spirit of the Law, but the finer differences between these two particular commands are still escaping me, especially since they fall "back to back" in the Bible. You may be tired of answering this, but i hope you'll suffer me to ask one more time, why do you personally refrain from getting tattoos yet still feel comfortable shaving? I think i understand as well as i ever will about why these commands were given to the Jews, but i still don't understand how you have used the Bible to interpret this portion of Leviticus in such a way that you would not want to get a tattoo, but you feel shaving is acceptable. How does the Bible itself allow you to make that distinction?

Again, i apologize for not "getting this" sooner. I thank you for your patience.

Bon

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Author: FairfaxScott Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70716 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 11:04 AM
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Bon:

While I respect your view, aren't some interpretations clearly inaccurate? People bring their own baggage, some good, some bad.

Scott

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70720 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 11:13 AM
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While I respect your view, aren't some interpretations clearly inaccurate? People bring their own baggage, some good, some bad.

Have you read the rest of the thread, after that post you just replied to? I feel like the Goldrushes and i have covered this pretty thoroughly.

But to address your question, briefly, yes. Some interpretations are of course going to be closer to God's ultimate truth than others. I have never claimed all interpretations are equal.

My point is that the nature of the Bible is such that we all must interpret it for it to make any sense. Another one of my points is that it is literally impossible for any person to read anything at all without "interpreting" it. That's just the nature of human communication. Even as you read this, my intentended meaning may be 100% clear in my head, but as you read it, you will come away with an understanding that is at least slightly different from how i intended it. Probably close enough to get my point, but you will have run my words through the lens that you've developed through your own life experiences. As a human being, you are incapable of discarding that lens, no matter what text you read, or speech you listen to, or movie you watch, etc. etc.

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70726 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 12:00 PM
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rbenarski: "And if you "interpret" the meaning out of these passages then why even bother with the Bible at all? If these passages don't mean what they so clearly say, then the Bible is gobbledygook. I don't believe that is the case."

I also don't believe the bible is gobbledygook. But I believe our interpretations of the bible, even yours, can be gobbledygook. Here is something the Catholic dissident Hans Kung wrote that provides an alternative POV from yours.

Exerpt from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/kunghell.html:

But, however the scriptural texts are interpreted in detail, the "eternity" of the punishment of hell may never be regarded as absolute. It remains subject to God, to his will and his grace. And individual texts suggest -- in contrast to others -- a reconciliation of all, an act of universal mercy. As Paul -- for instance -- says in the Letter to the Romans: "God has imprisoned men in their own disobedience only to show mercy to all mankind" (Rom. 11:32). And anyone who thinks he knows better should listen to the verses immediately following, which Paul takes almost entirely from the Old Testament: "How rich are the depths of God -- how deep his wisdom and knowledge -- and how impossible to penetrate his motives or understand his methods! Who could ever know the mind of the Lord? Who could ever be his counsellor? Who could ever give him anything or lend him anything? All that exists comes from him; all is by him and for him. To him be glory for ever! Amen" (Rom 11:33-36).



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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70738 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:06 PM
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Bon,

but i still don't understand how you have used the Bible to interpret this portion of Leviticus
in such a way that you would not want to get a tattoo, but you feel shaving is acceptable. How does the Bible itself allow you to
make that distinction?



No problem . . .how to approach O.T. laws as a Christian is not an easy concept. Being a Christian is truly a balancing act of avoiding two extremes: a. Legalism . . .or b. Lawlessness (antinomianism)

If a Christian places himself under obligation to keep all the O.T. laws with the thought of thereby pleasing God, he denies the grace of God that has saved his soul. Galatians 2:21-3:3, Romans 11:6

And if a Christian determines the O.T. is no longer applicable in any way to his life, because he was saved by grace, and he concludes he has liberty to live as he pleases, he also errs, for the command to Christians is "be holy for I am holy." (I Peter 1:16 from Lev. 11:44,45; 19:2; 20:7)

As far as the shaving versus tatooes, I say this . . .

"All things are lawful for me . . ." (I Cor. 6:12a)

I am saved by the grace of God, and am no longer obligated to follow either the law prohibiting tatooes or beard trimming. I live by faith, and not by my works any longer.

However:

". . . all things are not helpful. . ." (I Cor. 6:12a)

I must consider the intent and significance of God's instructions and O.T. laws, in order to distinguish whether my freedom to practice shaving or getting a tatoo is helpful to my witness of the Lord, or helpful to His cause. I have the freedom of reasonable, mental deduction and logic, to distinguish by studying the Scriptures, that getting a tatoo was related to the practice of shedding of blood, and defacement of body, to appease strange gods. Because I have believed the gospel message that Jesus Christ shed ~His~ blood and sacrificed ~His~ flesh to defacement and destruction for my sins, I determine that getting a tatoo may not be a helpful Christian witness, and that it is actually offensive to God, and it is not the will of God.

Then I study the laws about beard trimming, and see that this instruction was not a matter of grave offense against God, but only a matter of God giving the Jews an obvious identity. There is no point in my copying the identity of an O.T. Jew, for God does not witness to the world through the nation of Israel any longer, so there is no need to worry about that law. It does not offend God either way, and is not necessary to my holiness. I make a distinction that tatoos have more of a "religious" and anti-Christian significance, than mere beard growing has. I do not tatoo my body, out of desire to be "holy" as He was holy, and I shave because it simply does not affect my holiness in the eyes of the world or God.

The Christian should study the O.T. laws, and approach each one, with this kind of evaluation according to as many Scriptures as one can find on each subject. These civil and ceremonial laws, as a whole, are easily put aside. It is the moral Law (the ten commandments), that must always be adhered to, for all of them are eternal and must still be lived, in order to be holy Christians. And of course, Jesus reiterated the entire moral Law, in His summation, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind (that takes care of the first five commandments) . . .and the second it like it: You shall love your neighbors as yourself (this covers the last five commandments)." Matt. 22:37, 39 (See Exodus 20:2-17)

None of these laws, civil, ceremonial or moral, can save us. Only the grace of God can save our souls. Only faith in Jesus Christ, who successfully followed every jot and tittle of these laws, is counted as our personal righteousness. However, the moral Law is written on our new hearts by the Holy Spirit, and it is our guide to sanctified holy living, and the true child of God, who lives by faith, loves this Law and will obey its commandments out of gratitude and love for God.

"He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." I John 1:4&5

"His commandments" are those that Jesus Christ reiterated during His earthly ministry. Any O.T. Laws that Jesus teaches are to be observed; not to find salvation, but to live a holy life, and to evidence our faith is genuinely Godly. (James 2:14-26)

Any O.T. laws that Jesus did not mention, are not to be ignored, and must still be studied and understood spiritually, but most are no longer in effect to the letter, usually for civil or ceremonial reasons. One must look through all the statutes, though, for moral laws are intertwined with civil and ceremonial laws, and discernment is necessary. All of this takes careful Bible study, and an attitude of prayerful desire to truly conform to Christ's image and live in holiness rather than indulging the flesh with license.

Then there is another consideration to factor in on this subject. One thing that may be lawful to my conscience, may not be lawful to another's conscience, "for none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself." (Rom. 14:7)

Remember, " . . .whatever is not from faith is sin." (Rom. 14:23)

"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. . .Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and things by which one may edify another." Romans 14:14-21

So here we come back to the matter of heart, again. The above verses should be our Christian heart attitude regarding what to practice or what not to practice. We have freedom under grace, to not worry about following dietary, civil, ceremonial laws any longer, in order to please God, but it is sometimes helpful to our fellow man, to abstain from practices that might offend a brother.

Example: I can drink wine, with a free conscience before God. I am saved by grace, and a glass of wine will not affect my salvation at all. However, if I drink too much wine, I am not living holy, but as a drunkard, and that would evidence my faith might be a profession only, for I do not evidence love of God but offend Him. Or, if I drink wine in the face of a brother, who had a drinking problem in his past, and is tempted in that area, that practice may offend that brother, who cannot drink freely in his faith. I am free to drink wine, but I must not offend God or my brother by doing so. I must abstain from wild indulgence in my Christian liberty and exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit, called "self-control".
(Gal. 5:23)

None of this is very simple, is it?

J&R






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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70739 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:18 PM
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FS,

We agree, and the prohibition against "private interpretation" is exactly to prevent that kind of problem.

Any person can stand up and say "Thus God sayeth".

If a person does so, and attempts to explain such a teaching, he must show where God indeed did ~say so~!

That person must explain and apply (greek, "epilusis" . . ."interpret") not from his private thoughts and conclusions, but only from the teachings and conclusions found in the Holy Scriptures.

All of us who study the Bible, come to conclusions. These "conclusions" are what Bon is referring to as "interpretations". Conclusions are unavoidable, for God reasons with the reasoning minds He Himself created.

And it is our many ~conclusions~ we must put under Scriptural scrutiny. We, as Christians, must be sure that what we conclude from study of the Bible, is in accordance with the will of God. Our conclusions must be in harmony with God's conclusions, else they are "private" and worthless, and might even be deceptive and constitute lying.

So the Christian must also test all other teachers of the Scriptures, and not " . .Believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
I John 4:1

IOW's . . .being a Christian is not passive or easy. The Christian must be active and diligent in his studies of the Word of God, lest he be deceived, either by himself or enemies.

J&R

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70740 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:22 PM
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None of this is very simple, is it?

Definitely not. But i do appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks.

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70743 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:33 PM
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Goldrush states:
Teaching of any portion of the Word, direct through the Holy Spirit, will not vary in interpretation. And any conclusions, if from Him, will always be explained and supported with the rest of the Scriptures.

If there is a variance of interpretations between men, it will be due to men coming to Bible study with sinful presuppositions and reading things into the Word of God, or by sinful men taking away from the Word of God in their attempts to alter and reinvent God to their liking; all without diligently testing their views to see if they hold up under the scrutiny of the entire Scriptures.


So what are we to take from this? That your interpretation of scripture is correct because it is Divinely inspired, while those who disagree with you do so because of our "sinful presuppositions"? You seem to have skipped over the scriptures describing the importance of humility.

I believe that God tells us what we need to know, not necessarily what we want to know. I think we don't always get answers to our questions because God wants us to try to figure some things out for ourselves. Having been an educator, I know that the process of learning is often more important than the concept being learned.

Teaching of any portion of the Word, direct through the Holy Spirit, will not vary in interpretation. And any conclusions, if from Him, will always be explained and supported with the rest of the Scriptures.

Why can't it vary in interpretation? Again, I believe the Holy Spirit tells us what we need to know. Hence I think it possible for you and I to ask God the same question and get different answers. Each answer will emphasize a different facet of the truth that best fits our own specific needs. Ask a thirsty man, a fireman, a dirty man, and a fish what is good about water and you will get different answers. It is not that any one answer is wrong, rather it is that the nature of water is sufficiently complex that there are many ways to accurately answer the question.

Therefore I don't think the "variance in interpretations" of scripture between men is due to variations in sinfullness. Rather the moral issues are complex and our knowledge is limited. We are attempting to see an infinite God with mortal eyes, an impossible task to say the least. Therefore, I think it to be hubris to the extreme for any one person to claim that their vision encompasses the truth to the exclusion of other visions.

...but the truth that God Himself has revealed, even if only a tiniest portion, is absolute truth of infinite ~quality~ when it accords with all the Word of God.

Yes, but note the following. God made this universe such that the physical unit of light, the photon, acts as both a solid particle and an energy wave. The notion that the photon can be simultaneously both wave and particle is contradictory to the human mind, yet is absolutely true. Therefore, it is entirely possible for two ideas to seem contradictory to us, but be simultaneously true to God.

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70744 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:34 PM
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coralville,

Romans 11:32 is "interpreted" in Galatians 3:22.

And Romans 11:33-35 must be interpreted while also factoring in I Cor. 2:7-16; particularly verse 16 that repeats the Isaiah portion quoted in Romans 11:34&35:

"Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, or as His counsellor has taught Him?" Isaiah 40:13

I Corinthians 2:16 repeats the question and declaration of Romans 11:34&35, by promising . . .

"For 'Who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?' But we (Christians with the indwelling Holy Spirit) have the mind of Christ." I Cor. 2:16

The Christians can reach Scriptural conclusions with surety, through the Holy Spirit, who reveals the conclusions of the mind of God, to them.

"Now we (Christians) have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God." I Cor. 2:12

And the Word of God, that Christians can learn and know, by the guidance and teaching of God's own Spirit, does not teach Universalism.

If any man says, "Thus God sayeth" that all men will eventually be saved from everlasting destruction, that man has to prove with the Holy Scriptures, exactly where God proclaims that conclusion. In all our years, we have never known a "Universalist" who holds that particular private conclusion ("interpretation")who was able to prove it is truth from the mind of God, and is thus God's conclusion or promise to the world.

The belief of "Universalism" always ends up being nothing more than mere wishful thinking . . .

J&R

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70745 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:46 PM
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Goldrush: In all our years, we have never known a "Universalist" who holds that particular private conclusion ("interpretation")who was able to prove it is truth from the mind of God, and is thus God's conclusion or promise to the world.

I don't doubt this is true. But I would also suggest that your own beliefs are based on equally private intrepretations that depend on which scriptural passages you choose to emphasize and which meanings of ancient Greek or Hebrew words you choose to use, not to mention what aspects of the truth the Holy Spirit decides you need to know.

The notion that your beliefs are more true than others who disagree may also be wishful thinking...

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70746 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:52 PM
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coralville,

Your argument is completely devoid of acknowledging the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

No human, with his finite mind, will ever understand the things of God; but the regenerated Christian soul, indwelt by God's Spirit, and miraculously given a new life, heart, and mind by God's grace, can and will receive and understand the infinite truths of God.

Jesus promised, right before His death . . .

"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth . . .He will take of Mine and declare it to you." John 16:12,13,15

"The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you, and will be in you." John 14:17

". .The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name; He will teach you all things . . ." John 14:26a

"Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints, according to the will of God." Romans 8:27

J&R

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Author: TMFSelena Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70748 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 2:58 PM
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<<Your argument is completely devoid of acknowledging the ministry of the Holy Spirit.>>

Huh? Did we read the same thing? I understood coralville definitely addressing (and acknowledging) the Holy Spirit.

<< No human, with his finite mind, will ever understand the things of God; but the regenerated Christian soul, indwelt by God's Spirit, and miraculously given a new life, heart, and mind by God's grace, can and will receive and understand the infinite truths of God.>>

This doesn't seem contrary to what coralville suggested.

Selena

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Author: FairfaxScott Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70756 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 3:48 PM
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Bon:

Your explanation of interpretation is fairly innocent and innocuous.

Often, however, a false interpretation can be truly harmful to others.

Such interpretations can not be condoned, and must be condemned.

Here's a perfect, albeit extremely obvious, example:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=16311570

Scott

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70757 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 3:50 PM
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Your explanation of interpretation is fairly innocent and innocuous.

Often, however, a false interpretation can be truly harmful to others.

Such interpretations can not be condoned, and must be condemned.


We're all just doing the best we can, eh?

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Author: FairfaxScott Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70758 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:02 PM
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Bon,

Many people want to misinterpret the Bible for their own purposes, or even just to ridicule people who have fealty to God.

These kinds of interpretations are not valid interpretations.

The word of God does not change. People have been sinners all through time, and continue to be so today. There is a lot of political capital in the Bible, so people who want to change American society start with Biblical deconstruction and false interpretations.

Scott

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70760 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:03 PM
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Many people want to misinterpret the Bible for their own purposes, or even just to ridicule people who have fealty to God.

These kinds of interpretations are not valid interpretations.

The word of God does not change. People have been sinners all through time, and continue to be so today. There is a lot of political capital in the Bible...


All of this i am fully aware of. Why are you putting this in a post directed to me?

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Author: FairfaxScott Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70761 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:07 PM
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All of this i am fully aware of. Why are you putting this in a post directed to me?

I was just concerned about the extent to which you felt that various interpretations should be given validity.

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Author: GoldRushs Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70762 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:17 PM
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Selena,


Huh? Did we read the same thing? I understood coralville definitely addressing (and acknowledging) the Holy Spirit.

coralville speaks generically of "God" and has only referred to the Holy Spirit in passing, three times, and that in the belief this Spirit only "tells man what he needs to know." That is not a Scriptural or truthful job description of the Person of the Holy Spirit.

<< No human, with his finite mind, will ever understand the things of God; but the regenerated Christian soul, indwelt by God's
Spirit, and miraculously given a new life, heart, and mind by God's grace, can and will receive and understand the infinite truths
of God.>>

This doesn't seem contrary to what coralville suggested.

We speak of "infinite truths" coming via the Person of the Holy Spirit.

coralville speaks of a generic "God" whose Holy Spirit "tells men what they need to know".

This entire discussion is whether private interpretations (what men decide they want or need to know) is allowed, or if Scripture must be interpreted by all of the Scriptures, because the Word of God alone reveals and teaches men, through the Person of the Holy Spirit, the absolute, infinite truths of God with final authority.

What are people looking for when they pick up a Bible?

Reasons and excuses to do what they are doing, or believe as they are believing, or discovering any version of truth that will fit their needs?

Or are they looking to know God, and learn God's will, and do God's will, according to God's eternal holy principles?

We see a big difference between the two attitudes.

J&R



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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70763 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:20 PM
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I was just concerned about the extent to which you felt that various interpretations should be given validity.

If you go back through this thread, you'll notice i never said one word about the validity or lack thereof of any specific interpretation nor method of interpretation nor purpose of interpretation. I was intentionally very general, and my only purpose in this thread has been to point out the necessity and inevitability of Biblical interpretation. I have had no agenda pushing any particular interpretation nor any "school" of interpretation.

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Author: FairfaxScott Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70765 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:30 PM
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This is may sound somewhat metaphysical, but I believe that a person can only come to grips with scripture after they have "died" and been reborn with Jesus in the holy spirit.

Part of this is putting away the human nature and dwelling peacefully in the presence of God, as in prayer.

This is really wonderfully described in Romans 6 and 7.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Romans+6%2C+7&version=NIV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70766 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:36 PM
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What are people looking for when they pick up a Bible?

Many different things.

Reasons and excuses to do what they are doing, or believe as they are believing, or discovering any version of truth that will fit their needs?

I hope you do not believe you have have presented all possible reasons people "pick up a Bible."

Bon

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Author: FairfaxScott Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70767 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:38 PM
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Bon,

If you go back through this thread, you'll notice i never said one word about the validity or lack thereof of any specific interpretation nor method of interpretation nor purpose of interpretation. I was intentionally very general, and my only purpose in this thread has been to point out the necessity and inevitability of Biblical interpretation. I have had no agenda pushing any particular interpretation nor any "school" of interpretation.

Sorry, I should have been clearer that I do respect your intellectual integrity. You strike me as a sincere person in your posts. :)

Not everyone is as scrupulous or sincere as you are!

Scott




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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70768 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:42 PM
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Sorry, I should have been clearer that I do respect your intellectual integrity. You strike me as a sincere person in your posts. :)

Thanks. I genuinely appreciate the compliment.

Have a good one.

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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70771 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 4:59 PM
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Goldrushs,

(from an earlier post) Your argument is completely devoid of acknowledging the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Oh I acknowledge the Holy Spirit. The difference between us is that I don't claim that the Holy Spirit will give us all knowledge of all things whenever we demand it. Instead, I believe God will provide the knowledge that is in our best interests and that will fulfill His purpose. Here's an analogy. I plan to one day teach my son to drive. However, given that he isn't two years old yet, it seems silly to put him behind the wheel now. He lacks the physical and intellectual maturity to learn that skill. Knowledge requires a certain level of maturity, there is a proper time for all things. The Holy Spirit makes an understanding of the Truth possible, and it will occur when we are ready for the Truth.

What makes you think you curently have the moral maturity to accept the infinite knowledge of the Holy Spirit? With all due respect, from what I've seen you have some difficulty with the relatively mundane task of maintaining polite discussion with folks on an anonymous discussion board. To now presume you are capable of accepting and understanding the Infinite Truths seems a bit presumptuous.

I believe that I have accepted God. I also know that I am far from ready to understand the Truth in its entirety. It would turn me into a blathering idiot (rather than my current state as a run-of-the-mill idiot). I believe the Holy Spirit will reveal to me what I need to know when I need to know it in order to continue whatever it is God has planned. That's enough for me.

coralville speaks generically of "God" and has only referred to the Holy Spirit in passing, three times, and that in the belief this Spirit only "tells man what he needs to know." That is not a Scriptural or truthful job description of the Person of the Holy Spirit.

You now refer to my referencing a "generic God". This is what I find most irritating about the two of you. On the basis of little knowledge of what I believe, you are so ready to denigrate my faith in God. Well that's up to you of course, but it makes me wonder whether the two of you are really worshiping God or the image you see in the mirror. Pride is seductive.

I'm not sure why it is such an anathema to claim the Holy Spirit tells us what we need to know. The Holy Spirit is not a servant to man. God answers our prayers as He sees fit, not as we demand.


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Author: JavaTraveler Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 70814 of 196088
Subject: Re: 1 Timothy 1:3-7 Date: 12/19/2001 11:44 PM
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What makes you think you curently have the moral maturity to accept the infinite knowledge of the Holy Spirit? With all due respect, from what I've seen you have some difficulty with the relatively mundane task of maintaining polite discussion with folks on an anonymous discussion board. To now presume you are capable of accepting and understanding the Infinite Truths seems a bit presumptuous.



Plus they do not apologize when they have been rude.


Charlie

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