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Author: tpault Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 176669  
Subject: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 6:43 AM
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About 50% of Americans feel the U.S. president broke the law by wiretapping phones. About 50% feel opposite that.

100 million Americans have decided this is a timely and valid talking point and issue that cuts to the very core of being American.

About 49 percent of respondents said the president had definitely or probably broken the law by authorizing the wiretaps and 47 percent said he probably or definitely had not
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/14/poll.wiretaps/index.html

So it's funny when Canadians and Germans and a few extremists from various sides, try to characterize anyone who would speak of things such as privacy and rights and democracy as they relate to this issue and current administration, as invalid and without merit. 100 million Americans would beg to differ.

Thank God for our system here, because it allows us to completely sort through these issues, and this one will get sorted through as well, and if any wrongdoing has been done, it will be corrected. Our clothesline sits in the middle of our media yard and everyone sees our dirty laundry. We cannot hide very much for very long here. If nothing has been done wrong, great! If something has been done wrong, we'll get to the bottom of it! But never, ever will we listen to armchair Americans saying we should stop looking.

Paul T.
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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140173 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 7:08 AM
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A purported 100 million Americans, those exducated in the leftist controlled public education systems, dropouts in the tens of millions, all those who lap leftist spew regurgitated on Leftist blogs where this originated, never contrasting or even attempting to vett for any accuracy, let alone understanding the first thing about the actual laws and what is really happening.

Couple that with the origins, the Leftist spun campaign that concocted and elaborated this as a 'wiretapping' issue', 'picked up' and regurgitated by the plaint former MSM which will not 'report' this but simply continue the 'story'.

Clearly 'selective story telling'.

Carter 'wiretapped'... Clinton 'wiretapped'...

But THIS is THE story now. Bush does it and it's breaking the law.

Good luck Leftists.

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Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140187 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 11:29 AM
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...A purported 100 million Americans, those exducated in the leftist controlled public education systems, ...

Take that Paul, you wascally weftist you!

Exducated in the liberal thought-control gulags!

Quit listening to you weftist spew and learn the law from Canadians on the Motley Fool chit chat boards.

Get your JD degree (LLB in Canada!), and then come back and spew your weftist spew.

When have the Blind Bushies ever been wrong about anything? Ever. I dare you to come up with an example. :) They are super-geniuses. Regular Perry Masons.


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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140189 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 12:16 PM
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Clearly 'selective story telling'.

Carter 'wiretapped'... Clinton 'wiretapped'...

But THIS is THE story now. Bush does it and it's breaking the law.

Good luck Leftists.


So the republicans who are also objecting to the wiretapping....leftists also?


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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140191 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 12:29 PM
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"...So the republicans who are also objecting to the wiretapping....leftists also?"
----------

Clueless 'RINO's. Purposefully or not.

Since they have staffers, some of whom should clearly know the facts and should keep their principals from embarassing themselves, I'll go with both clueless and calculating.


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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140193 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 12:52 PM
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http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=23706344

couple of items on NSA... does seem to fit the pattern of "make accusations, make a lot of noise about it, then let it die quietly so that the truth doesn't get exposed.." but after watching the DEMs/media in action for the last 6 years, I am not surprised if this is how this one plays out.... I call it a "pattern"....

Democrats run away from NSA "scandal"

http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=4452

Democrats In Full Retreat On NSA

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/1329
-------------------------------

Leftists/Dems hitting the TV screens and print media first doesn't equal the 'truth' or the actual facts.

This was a probing/harassing attack on America's Warriors conducting Combat COMINT.

Dispicable and treasonous.

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Author: tpault Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140197 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 1:03 PM
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A purported 100 million Americans, those exducated in the leftist controlled public education systems

100 million refers to all adults basically. Half of whom support the wiretaps and half of whom don't. So by lumping all 100 million in as leftists, then by your own design you are saying that half of the leftists support Bush, and the wiretapping.

Are there really 12 people reading your post that are that dense to recommend it even though your premise cut's your own argument off at the knees?

Clinton 'wiretapped'

Then he should be caught and pay the price if he did it illegally. Do tell, die Clinton wiretap Americans illegally and would you please cite your sources if so?

Your quick retort that dem. presidents wiretapped to, suggests that you think anyone saying boo about Bush doing it is only doing so out of being a democrat.

It's sad that you youngsters don't know right from wrong anymore. Don't have a clue that it's not about which president or which party.

Here's a nice little concept for you. If Bush is illegally wiretapping, STOP IT. C'mon, what's your opinion now, all of you. If Bush is illegally wiretapping, should he stop it, or should he not? Answers, please, pronto.

My opinion is, that if he is, he should just stop it. I have no desire to hang him out to dry or make it be a fault of right wing republicans, or left wing demo's if some other president did it. I just want it stopped if it's illegally trouncing on our privacy and rights. And if you don't...I would say you fall into the category of 'against us' and not 'with us.' Because "us" is the true Americans, not some police state that'll lock you up and throw away the key based on secret info. That's the definition of every government we've went to war with to keep them at bay, basically.

Paul T.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140198 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 1:05 PM
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Only 1 reply on the PA thread, I'm not surprised. The *last* thing they want is for Hayden to put 'Able Danger', 'NSA', and 'Atta' in the same sentence.

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140201 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 1:13 PM
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"...It's sad that you youngsters don't know right from wrong anymore. Don't have a clue that it's not about which president or which party.

Here's a nice little concept for you. If Bush is illegally wiretapping, STOP IT...."

"...My opinion is, that if he is, he should just stop it...."
...............................


My opinion is;

Bush is working in the White House and this Leftist originated and highly spun-spewed agitprop item is clearly misdirected to the Leftists' 'Whipping boy' Bush, instead of addressing the NSA, who conduct the Combat COMINT.

When you swim your way out of that messy cesspoll the Leftists have you in, try to figure out exactly how this became about Bush, and not those individuals who specifically are alleged to be doing this 'illegal wiretapping'.

Good luck.



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Author: waterfell Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140209 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 1:42 PM
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Thomas Sowell brings up an interesting point.

Hundreds of raw FBI files on Republicans were sent to the Clinton White House, in violation of laws and for no higher purpose than having enough dirt on enough people to intimidate political opponents. But domestic spying against Republicans did not shock nearly as many people as intercepting phone calls from terrorists.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_14_06_TS.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The double-standard is clear. The Main Stream Media is unconcerned with the spying activities of Democrat presidents on Republicans. Afterall, Republicans deserve to be spied on, don't they? But if a Republican president follows the advice of his Attorney General on stopping terrorist activities, then suddenly that is an impeachable offense.

Nobody (nobody sane, anyway) is saying Bush ordered this surveillance for his own personal gain. He was trying to protect Americans. This is something he feels strongly about. Can anyone say Clinton was behaving in the best interest of the citizens when he got a look-see at those FBI files?

-waterfell

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140239 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 6:12 PM
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Afterall, Republicans deserve to be spied on, don't they? But if a Republican president follows the advice of his Attorney General on stopping terrorist activities, then suddenly that is an impeachable offense.

Oh please, cut the histrionics. The FBI file imbroglio was investigated by Ken Starr. He spent $50 million dollars investigating it. When he asked to interview Hillary Clinton, she sat down with him within days. No executive privilege was called, there was no stonewalling, an actual interview took place. A low level staffer was implicated, and he was fired within days. And what did Ken Starr find out about it? Well, after spending all that money, nothing. Exactly - nothing. You can look it up. His report is public information.

Now, the president isn't "stopping terrorist activities". He is using thousands of wiretaps for which he clearly could not show "probable cause", the basic constitutional test which has been in place for 200 years. If he could show probably cause, he would, and he would go to the FISA court, as he did, and as Clinton did, and as Reagan did, and as Carter did after the law was passed.

Instead we have a President who has decided the law - and the Constitution - are inconvenient, and that he knows better; and he has installed an Attorney General who has decided that the President is King, and has written opinions saying that the President doesn't have to follow the law.. He has decided that torture is OK, even if innocents are swept up in it. The President has decided that cherry picking intelligence is a fine idea, that telling the rest of the world to go spit in their hat is wonderful politics, that black is white and up is down.

And you and Thomas Sowell sit there applauding, knowing in your heart that if a Democratic President were doing the exact same thing you would be howling like a banshee and crying to your mama all the way home.

Pathetic.
 


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Author: satiranarchist Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140245 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 6:44 PM
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Nobody (nobody sane, anyway) is saying Bush ordered this surveillance for his own personal gain.

Well, we do not know that, yet. Nobody, other than the administration and the spying authorities, know who was monitored due to the secrecy.
This is exactly why the FISA courts and laws were established, to avoid the abuses and corruption that is far too easy to have happen.

What is it exactly about the rule of law that bothers you folk?

*JR*

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Author: ep0001 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140263 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/15/2006 9:52 PM
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Thank God for our system here, because it allows us to completely sort through these issues, and this one will get sorted through as well, and if any wrongdoing has been done, it will be corrected. Our clothesline sits in the middle of our media yard and everyone sees our dirty laundry. We cannot hide very much for very long here. If nothing has been done wrong, great! If something has been done wrong, we'll get to the bottom of it! But never, ever will we listen to armchair Americans saying we should stop looking.


The key is we'll fix it. The biggest disappointment to me is that we don't seem to be able to fix it with civility.


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Author: CVSUSN Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140266 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 12:22 AM
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Now, the president isn't "stopping terrorist activities". He is using thousands of wiretaps for which he clearly could not show "probable cause", the basic constitutional test which has been in place for 200 years.

To say President Bush isn't "stopping terrorist activities" demands proof. That proof is probably classified one way or the other. The comment can't be supported.

My opinion, ill-informed as it may be: The issue is not one of "probable cause", rather an issue of what is included in Article II of the Constitution placing the president as Commander-in-Chief over the military. Two examples immediately come to mind when aspects of the Constitution were suspended in times of extremis. The writ of habeus corpus during the Civil War and the internment of Americans of Japanese descent during WWII.

At inauguration the President takes an oath to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Were the actions at the time taken by Lincoln and Roosevelt appropriate?
More correctly, were these steps in concert with Article II? Did Lincoln and Roosevelt uphold their oath? Is the constitutional test probable cause or Article II?

Instead we have a President who has decided the law - and the Constitution - are inconvenient, and that he knows better; and he has installed an Attorney General who has decided that the President is King, and has written opinions saying that the President doesn't have to follow the law.. He has decided that torture is OK, even if innocents are swept up in it. The President has decided that cherry picking intelligence is a fine idea, that telling the rest of the world to go spit in their hat is wonderful politics, that black is white and up is down.


The Constitution "inconvenient"? Instead of a declarative statement, ask yourself a question, "Is the Constitution a national suicide pact?"

It is not the policy of the US to torture. That said, the liberal jurist Alan Dershowitz makes a compelling case for when torture is appropriate. Personally, I'd attach the battery leads to Mohammed Atta's nuts if he had knowledge of an attack on Goofy and his family. Forget his family . . . if it was just Goofy, I'd do it. Same for tpault, and little Mikey. In my ethically challenged mind, it's the right thing to do.

One more question. When would you lose sleep, torturing someone with actionable knowledege of a catastrophic that could save lives or NOT torturing someone with actionable knowledge and knowing your inaction KILLED thousands of innocents? I'll sleep well and take my chances before any court.





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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140267 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 12:32 AM
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"One more question. When would you lose sleep, torturing someone with actionable knowledege of a catastrophic that could save lives or NOT torturing someone with actionable knowledge and knowing your inaction KILLED thousands of innocents? I'll sleep well and take my chances before any court."

How much sleep would you lose if it turned out you had been torturing the wrong man/woman/child?

Ken

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Author: tpault Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140271 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 6:25 AM
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The issue is not one of "probable cause", rather an issue of what is included in Article II of the Constitution placing the president as Commander-in-Chief over the military

Yes, he is Commander, but by law, we are not a military ran government. We are a civilian ran government. And it becomes very dangerous when a leader begins to resemble a military ran government, since it is very clear that we are not and civilian, not military affairs, dictate our executive, judicial, and legislative branches of government. Military isn't even a branch of U.S. government, let alone one in which the Commander can say takes authority over all three actual branches, and all civilians. The irony is that we just removed someone ruling their country militarially. Now, the president is applying military authoritarianism over us.

Paul T.

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140272 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 6:28 AM
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"...Now, the president isn't "stopping terrorist activities"..."
---------

A statement you can't back up.

............................................................

"... He is using thousands of wiretaps for which he clearly could not show "probable cause", the basic constitutional test which has been in place for 200 years...."
-----------

This is the crux of the failure for the Leftists and America haters on this Combat COMINT.

All their efforts to restrict our American Warrior's efforts from intel to preclude attacks and continue to find cultist perps is failing.

War time intel work and law enforcement are different animals.

And when Americans see these orgs working to cripple our Warriors in the hunt, the American public will do the right thing.
Leftists and their ilk think they can spin Americans, and for some that's true, but the thinking and rational Americans see straight through this constructed agitprop that is purposefully harming America's efforts.

The American people can see through the anti-American spin when they are presented these facts.
This is going to bite the Dems, who've joined the Leftists in this big time this year, and it looks like into 08 as well.

Americans are patriotic and they will punish the leftists and the clique controlling the Dem party in concert with Soros, Moveovertotheleft.org., go-underground.spew...

When the duplicity of these America haters, the Leftist allies, and the pliant and accomodating Dem leftists is exposed, it's hammer time at the ballot box.

America needs a two party system for checks and balances, but not at the cost of our freedoms, our institutions and even our American way of life.



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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140277 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 8:54 AM
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To say President Bush isn't "stopping terrorist activities" demands proof.

"...Now, the president isn't "stopping terrorist activities"..."
---------
A statement you can't back up.


I don't have to back it up. The Constitution clearly places the onus for government interference, seizure, wiretapping, arrest or detention on probable cause, not on "I'm the President, so whatever I say goes."

If anyone has to "back up" a statement, it is those who are making the claim that "the President is stopping terrorist activities." The PRESIDENT should have to "back up" his statement, not merely say it and have you slavishly fall in line. Do you not understand? If Hillary Clinton says "Those FBI files were nothing to worry about", were you not worried about them? Did you not demand an investigation? Did you not get one?

The Constitution "inconvenient"? Instead of a declarative statement, ask yourself a question, "Is the Constitution a national suicide pact?"

Then you think the Constitution should have been abrogated when the Black Panthers began killing people in the streets of America? How about when the right-wing militia of Montana began executing lawmen, or robbing banks? When organized crime was machine gunning people in the streets of Chicago and other cities? When the labor movement was fomenting riots in the 1920's? When the whiskey tax rebellion happened in the first days of the Republic? During the draft riots of the pre-civil war? When there were race riots in Los Angeles? What is the magic tripping point for you? That "this time it's different"?

This is quite simple. The Constitution is the Constitution. You follow it, or you don't live in America. Now if you want to change it, that's OK with me, there is a mechanism for doing so. You don't simply declare "I'm the President, and I don't have to follow it because it's old and inconvenient."

Were the actions at the time taken by Lincoln and Roosevelt appropriate?

My opinion is that they were not. It is also my opinion that this analogy is absurd. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus when he had an invading army a few miles from the nation's capital, when there was an armed insurrection within the borders of the country and tens of thousands of soldiers were marching on the citizens of the land, armed with artillery, cannon, and rifles. Roosevelt's ill-advised move was undoubtedly racist (we didn't bother interning German-American citizens, who happened to be white), and when we were in a declared war with three nation states equipped with the latest in war materiel and the means to deliver it.

I do not mean to minimize the threat of terrorism, but it's ridiculous to make a comparison to the situation today, particularly within the borders of the United States where more terrorist incidents over the past 20 years have been caused by politically extremist white men than by religious Arab fundamentalists.

It is not the policy of the US to torture. That said, the liberal jurist Alan Dershowitz makes a compelling case for when torture is appropriate.

Yes, he does. And, IIRC, he also believes it should be used only with the approval of the court, with appropriate checks and balances, by issuance of a "torture warrant", based on probable cause and the anticipated size of the terrorism threat, and done only under "extraordinary cirsumstances." You may note the difference between that position and what you imply, that "Alan Dershowitz says torture is OK", which is very close to your "wiretapping must be OK because the President says so."

One more question. When would you lose sleep, torturing someone with actionable knowledege of a catastrophic that could save lives or NOT torturing someone with actionable knowledge and knowing your inaction KILLED thousands of innocents?

I guess you're asking me if I feel like torturing people who might be innocent on the chance that they might have information which could be useful. The answer is no. We have had government who tried that: Joe Stalin comes to mind. Adolph Hitler. And the ever popular Saddam Hussein. Those are the role models for your theory of torture?

Oh, wait, I remember. It's George Bush, so we don't have to worry. Just a quick question. Who follows George Bush? You're OK if the next President after him also tortures people without any court intervention? And the guy after that?

You should read the history of the Roman Republic, which became a dictatorship replete with the worst excesses imaginable, just because people like you said "It's OK. Anyway, this 'Republic' thing is sometimes inconvenient, and this time the threat is really big.'" From that point forward, "citizens" such as you and I had no rights at all. And all because you didn't think enough of them to care about them when you had them.
 


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Author: TerryMcK Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140278 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 9:02 AM
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The irony is that we just removed someone ruling their country militarially. Now, the president is applying military authoritarianism over us

Up until that statement you were making an honest point. However, it is talk like this (aka hate-speech) that has caused the deep divide we see today. (a) I don't believe the US is removing anyone from running a country militarily (nor do you if you are honest), and (b) I don't think you can compare Bush to Saddam.

The statement is not irony, it is false and hateful.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140280 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 9:10 AM
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"The statement is not irony, it is false and hateful."

No. It's not. It's actually fairly mild.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Ken

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Author: TraderJim3 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140304 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 10:27 AM
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This is quite simple. The Constitution is the Constitution. You follow it, or you don't live in America.

THe real

Love It or Leave It.

Is it just a piece of cloth?


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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140324 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 11:50 AM
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"The statement is not irony, it is false and hateful."
No. It's not. It's actually fairly mild.


Hateful seems to be a new buzzword for the right.... if they want to obfuscate an issue they calll the contrary position "hateful", so the person with the contrary position feels compelled to explain hate has nothing to do with it.

It's the old "When did you stop beating your wife" trick. If you don't respond, it's considered admission of the allegation of hate. If you do respond, they have successfully misguided the meat of the matter.

Talkradio slop all the way.


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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140335 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 1:03 PM
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I do not mean to minimize the threat of terrorism...

Why not. The threat of terrorism is pretty minimal.

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Author: slaramee Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140337 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 1:17 PM
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One more question. When would you lose sleep, torturing someone with actionable knowledege of a catastrophic that could save lives or NOT torturing someone with actionable knowledge and knowing your inaction KILLED thousands of innocents? I'll sleep well and take my chances before any court.

Clearly, your missing the point.

If these guys we are torturing at Gitmo and elsewhere for information were actually guilty of crimes based on the information obtained by this torture, they would be paraded on the news everywhere and tried just like Mossasoui is being tried right now. The reason for such coverage is obvious- it would validate the basis for Gitmo itself, the presumption of guilt, and it would certainly make the White House and its supporters damn good in the public eye as this whole "trust us" argument would be validated in the eyes of many.

Any guess why we haven't seen much of that? Because they aren't guilty. If they were, we'd be doing exactly this publicly and kudos would be going around to GWB and Co., among others.

IMO, Gitmo, and Abu Gharib are serious black marks on our credibility and morality as a country and reason #1 why we've lost the moral high ground as a country in the world and the benefit of the doubt of much of the world used to offer us.

-Scott


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Author: ggiovanni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140340 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 1:22 PM
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100 million Americans have decided this is a timely and valid talking point and issue that cuts to the very core of being American.

That makes it right? I voted for Bush in 2000. I was wrong. Heck, with your very own logic, millions of Germans couldn't be wrong when they voted for Hitler.

The election was a resounding victory for the National Socialists who became the largest party in the Reichstag. The National Socialists won 37.6% of the vote and 230 seats in the election. Hitler refused any offer of coalition unless he was appointed Chancellor.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/europe/hitrise.htm

History shows that the majority is usually wrong...Heck, there was a time you would be killed if you stated that the world was not flat.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140342 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 1:39 PM
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Any guess why we haven't seen much of that? Because they aren't guilty. If they were, we'd be doing exactly this publicly and kudos would be going around to GWB and Co., among others.

And you know this how again...? Your premise is false.

The idiots at Gitmo are jerks we pick up *on the battlefield* who we catch taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs. In other words, caught in the act.

They're being held at Gitmo because 99% of them are al Qaeda members and thus not affiliated with a another government. "Affiliated" meaning they aren't drawing a paycheck from Jordon, Egypt, Iran or wherever.

They're not being tried as criminals because they fall into the grey area of Enemy Combatant. They're being held for intelligence purposes until we can figure out what to do with them.

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140343 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 1:48 PM
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The idiots at Gitmo are jerks we pick up *on the battlefield* who we catch taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs. In other words, caught in the act.

Link, please.


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Author: slaramee Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140349 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 2:26 PM
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They're not being tried as criminals because they fall into the grey area of Enemy Combatant. They're being held for intelligence purposes until we can figure out what to do with them.

And when will that be? That was not an issue in the months after it was set up, but going on 4+ years, it is.

Will anything be done about these guys, good bad or indifferent, ever? Even serial killers are given a day in court. And I for one support justice being carried out on the guilty.

My concern rests with us losing the long held perception of our country doing what's right for the good of man. If we simply jail all our enemies and not allow them a day in court (my and many others definition of justice), then we've sunk to a level we've traditionally accused the oppressionist regimes of the world and those very organizations we're fighting. Fear of being attack never justifies such an action. Attacking our enemies, is justified, IMO, when they attack us, but that's not the issue being discussed here.

Saddam's trial has a likely outcome of him being found guilty and being hanged. That doesn't mean someone like him, a murdering dictator, shouldn't have his day in court.

But this continued use of the legal gray area seems to be simply a very poor excuse for not carrying out the rule of law and justice becuase it might be inconvenient or occasionally result in some of them being released or their erroneous internment look bad. It should look bad if people end up going free after being held for years, because it is. Releasing persons imprisoned that aren't charged isn't going to errode support for fighting terrorist. If anything, it would strengthen our cause both here and in the world as it would be seen by all that when someone is not charged they are released, just like we do here in the US every day. It's not a novel concept for us either- it's happening in US prisons as DNA evidence is exonerating people locked up for years.

This very gray area allows us to simply lock them up and never, ever, ever, decide what to do with them. The internment camps were closed after WWII. They as history has shown, were a mistake. Hey, maybe this isn't a mistake- I think it is, but you could be right. But unlike WWII, this "war" will not end in 4-5 years, it's going to be a generational conflict. So are those locked up there simply to spend the rest of their lives imprisoned without a charge or conviction? It would seem that's exactly the long term plan there.

And ironically, the longer Gitmo remains open, the longer I suspect we'll see terrorism on the rise, so the end of the war on terror is unlikely.

Among our freedoms as a nation is the presumption of innocence, even if it occurs at the expense of the guilty occasionally going free. So it should be here- that's my point.

-Scott


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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140352 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 2:32 PM
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And when will that be?

Until people remove their objections for military tribunals. Remember those? They're by far the best way to handle this.

My concern rests with us losing the long held perception of our country doing what's right for the good of man. If we simply jail all our enemies and not allow them a day in court (my and many others definition of justice), then we've sunk to a level we've traditionally accused the oppressionist regimes of the world and those very organizations we're fighting. Fear of being attack never justifies such an action. Attacking our enemies, is justified, IMO, when they attack us, but that's not the issue being discussed here.

Your concern is noted, and I certainly understand it. However, ponder this:

Would another country have even taken these people prisoner? And saw to their religious needs?

I submit that *no one*, not the French, not the Germans, not anyone, would have brought them to Cuba alive.

I support millitary tribunals - they get their day in court.

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Author: JoeDeutsch Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140362 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 3:46 PM
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And when will that be? That was not an issue in the months after it was set up, but going on 4+ years, it is.

Good point; this is going to take a while, and we need to have a method of reasonable disposal of the detainees.

The internment camps were closed after WWII. They as history has shown, were a mistake.

Straw man here. Gitmo and AG are not camps to hold denizens of the US that have been rounded up here because of their ethnicity. They were captured in the commission of a crime or are suspected of being involved in the commission of a crime. However, that doesn't change the need to reasonably dispose of them.

Among our freedoms as a nation is the presumption of innocence, even if it occurs at the expense of the guilty occasionally going free. So it should be here- that's my point.

Our freedoms have been earned by our people, for our people, and to those that we wish to extend them to in this country. Enemy combatants do not enjoy our freedoms, nor should they. However, they are entitled to some form of reasonable disposition.

I propose, like Dope, that we commence military tribunals. However I also support another choice. I actually prefer that we return them to their country of nationality provided their country of nationality is not one defined by the US as a state sponsor of terrorism. Should that be the case, then there would be no alternative to the tribunal.

I realize that many of the detainees would be tortured or killed if returned to their country; however, that's really an issue for those countries and the UN. It's simply not our business to protect them once we've returned them to their countries. All that cannot be returned should stand trial before a military tribunal. There they can provide their evidence. It's not open to the public for all to see for very valid reasons, but it has worked over the centuries during wartime here.

Simply holding the detainees indefinitely poses too great an image problem for the US to the rest of the world. Send them home where they can be locally tried (or not...), or try them here!

JD

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Author: JDCRex Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140369 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 4:19 PM
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The idiots at Gitmo are jerks we pick up *on the battlefield* who we catch taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs. In other words, caught in the act.

This guy (released after over three years) was picked up on a bus. He was only arrested because he remonstrated with authorities arresting others he did not know:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamdouh_Habib

Your argument will be that he had terrorist sympathies and was connected to al Qaeda. You'd be right.

However, it was plainly obvious that this somewhat pathetic character who is probably mentally ill didn't have aything like the insider knowledge that he was accused of having, or engaged in stuff like training terrorists in martial arts. Dr. Ruth could probably beat him up. The evidence of this is that he was released. Why the hell would they do that if he was such a heavy hitter?

You'll say that his release shows that the system down there works. The thing is that he patently wasn't "taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs" as you have asserted.


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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140370 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 4:27 PM
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The thing is that he patently wasn't "taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs" as you have asserted.

And there's probably a dragnet out there catching guys who are AQ associates in addition to the above type. So what? Not all terrorists actually pull the trigger.

The fact that this guy was questioned and released puts paid to the sentiment that we're rounding up random people for the fun of it.

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140371 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 4:34 PM
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And there's probably a dragnet out there catching guys who are AQ associates in addition to the above type. So what?

So, you said:

"The idiots at Gitmo are jerks we pick up *on the battlefield* who we catch taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs. In other words, caught in the act."

You don't know what you're talking about. You made it up and got caught. Admit it.


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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140372 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 4:40 PM
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You don't know what you're talking about. You made it up and got caught. Admit it.

Okay. You busted me. I was sloppy and didn't post every single possibility of every single type of terrorist in the world. Sue me.

Now you Admit It. You run around the boards trying to stir up trouble. I don't have the inclination to bother with it anymore.

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Author: JDCRex Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140373 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 4:51 PM
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And there's probably a dragnet out there catching guys who are AQ associates in addition to the above type. So what?

So what?

The "what" is that your initial claim that those in Cuba are and/or were all caught-in-the-act types is wrong.

The fact that this guy was questioned and released puts paid to the sentiment that we're rounding up random people for the fun of it.

Who said that?

I addressed the issue of "taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs".


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Author: slaramee Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140374 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 4:53 PM
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JD,

You make a couple valid points here and I'll acknowledge them.

I agree you're absolutely right on other countries not doing this. I love the idea behind the International Criminal Court, but in practice I'm certain it will never work without a unified body with the authority ti enforce its will. Currently there is no such world government nor do I want one as I prefer individual country sovereignty above all else (and the UN is not such a body).

A military tribunal is an option (Dopeman, this applies to your comment as well), and has potnetial to work. However, I don't agree with them as being effective.

The main reason for my opinon is that tribunals aren't the same as civilian courts, mainly because the military plays all roles- judge, jury, and potentially executioner- but also because the tribunals have an inherent bias in that "the enemy" is seen more as black and white and subject to the bias of the country detaining them.

Political dissidents in the Gulags in the former USSR and modern China are given tribunals- but this does not mean they are fair. I do not think we are as bad as these examples, but the proof that the "taking the gloves off" approach has major flaws is evident in the AG record. Not everyone's guilty of that kind of atrocious behavior, but any of it is completely acceptable- if not, then every confession should be suspect as coerced and under duress and not grounds to incriminate even the hardiest dregs there.

The fairness is my issue- we can't expect nor will we get the kind of unbiased judgement form a military tribunal that can be gotten in a jury of ordinary citizens.

With that said, I realize these men/women are not US citizens. Accordingly, no, I too do not think they should be given every right we have. But this fair representation as found in a true jury trial is to me the most basic of human rights and one which should be afforded to them regardless of nationality.

As for deportation, I consider that a somewhat better alternative than tribunals, but not as good as a jury trial for the reasons you've identified. On principal, I have no problem with it as how each country executes it own laws is its business IMO. I guess that makes me laissez-faire, which is certainly not very popular these days.

-Scott


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Author: TMFSpeck Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140398 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 5:50 PM
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100 million Americans cant be wrong

Sure they can.

Speck

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140399 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 5:51 PM
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I was sloppy and didn't post every single possibility of every single type of terrorist in the world.

Sloppy? You were quite specific and emphatic and even included asterisks when you wrote that all the Gitmo detainees were caught on the ***battlefield*** shooting at U.S. soldiers or planting IEDs.

If by "terrorists" you mean irritable loudmouths and by ***battlefield*** you mean buses in Karachi, then I guess you're right.

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Author: tpault Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140408 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 7:00 PM
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That makes it right? I voted for Bush in 2000. I was wrong. Heck, with your very own logic, millions of Germans couldn't be wrong when they voted for Hitler

Ya'll are missing the point. I have not said that a hundred million Americans said such'n such, so it must be true. I said 50 million Americans said our rights are being violated through covert government actions. The other 50 mllion said our lives might be snuffed through terrorist attacks, if we don't let the government have some covert tools like this. The fact that the implications are so serious, and valid concerns for both sides, makes this exactly what I said it was...a valid talking point. A valid and timely issue that cuts to the core and heart of what being American means.

Now, please, don't nobody else respond as though I'm saying well, 100 million democrats said something so all you republicans are wrong.

Paul T.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140413 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 7:33 PM
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TheDope1 says

The idiots at Gitmo are jerks we pick up *on the battlefield* who we catch taking shots at our guys or planting IEDs. In other words, caught in the act.

They're being held at Gitmo because 99% of them are al Qaeda members and thus not affiliated with a another government. "Affiliated" meaning they aren't drawing a paycheck from Jordon, Egypt, Iran or wherever.

Got any sort of substantiation for those claims? My recollection is the government has acknowledged that many of them were caught up in random sweeps, not on the battlefield, and that very few are Al Qaeda members.

crassfool

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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140419 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/16/2006 8:50 PM
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.....
I guess you're asking me if I feel like torturing people who might be innocent on the chance that they might have information which could be useful. The answer is no. We have had government who tried that: Joe Stalin comes to mind. Adolph Hitler. And the ever popular Saddam Hussein. Those are the role models for your theory of torture?

Oh, wait, I remember. It's George Bush, so we don't have to worry. Just a quick question. Who follows George Bush? You're OK if the next President after him also tortures people without any court intervention? And the guy after that?

You should read the history of the Roman Republic, which became a dictatorship replete with the worst excesses imaginable, just because people like you said "It's OK. Anyway, this 'Republic' thing is sometimes inconvenient, and this time the threat is really big.'" From that point forward, "citizens" such as you and I had no rights at all. And all because you didn't think enough of them to care about them when you had them.


That's the kind of post that makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. One of the biggest reasons I hate you so much, Goofy, is that you have an ability to say exactly the right thing. You can segue from a sarcastic statement, the intended truth of it shining like the sun, to a historical example, to a perfect parting comment.

Sometimes you write a post that gets recced just based on your reputation. I feel a little better when that happens, until you post a post like this one that just reminds me of why you have that reputation.

You raise the curve so far above my writing ability, I am destined to remain barely adequate.

Damn you, Goofy. Damn you to Hell. :o)

k



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Author: TMFJeanie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140434 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/17/2006 1:46 AM
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Roosevelt's ill-advised move was undoubtedly racist (we didn't bother interning German-American citizens, who happened to be white),

Oops, Goofy. Yeah we did. There was a number of both German-Americans and Italian-Americans rounded up and held during the WWII years. Primarily "persons of interest" who had previously attracted notice as being linked to suspicious organizations or unsavory activities.

Nothing on the scale of what we did to Japanese-Americans however.

What has always amazed and impressed me were the Japanese-Americans who donned the U.S. uniform and fought in Italy. My DH's uncle was the Commander of the 442nd Regiment (The Nisei)-- and it's my understanding it was one of the most-decorated regiments in our armed forces, including one Medal of Honor winner. Imagine that kind of dedication from young men whose own family members were being held for years in detention camps back home.

Other than that small correction, I agree with the rest of your post.

Jeanie

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140435 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/17/2006 1:55 AM
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What has always amazed and impressed me were the Japanese-Americans who donned the U.S. uniform and fought in Italy. My DH's uncle was the Commander of the 442nd Regiment (The Nisei)-- and it's my understanding it was one of the most-decorated regiments in our armed forces, including one Medal of Honor winner. Imagine that kind of dedication from young men whose own family members were being held for years in detention camps back home.

The 442 Regimental Combat Team was *The* most decorated American unit in World War II (for its size). Their motto was "Go For Broke", and boy, did they.

Some stats (these are amazing):

http://www.goforbroke.org/history/history_historical.asp

21 Medals of Honor (20 awarded on June 1, 2000)
33 Distinguished Service Crosses
559 Silver Stars with 28 Oak Leaf Clusters (in lieu of second Silver Star)
8 Presidential Unit Citations
1 Distinguished Service Medal
22 Legion of Merit Medals
15 Soldier's Medals
4,000 Bronze Stars with 1,200 Oak Leaf Clusters (in lieu of second Bronze Star)
9,486 Purple Hearts
12 French Croix de Guerre with 2 Palms (in lieu of a second award)
2 Italian Crosses for Military Valor
2 Italian Medals for Military Valor


Heroes all.



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Author: TMFJeanie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140436 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/17/2006 2:05 AM
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Some stats (these are amazing):

http://www.goforbroke.org/history/history_historical.asp


Wow, thanks Dope. I've always heard they were legendary, but didn't realize to what extent. Obviously DH's Uncle Bob is also a legend among my in-laws, but I only ever heard about one Medal of Honor.

21 Medals of Honor (20 awarded on June 1, 2000)

Guess that explains it. Oh well, better late than never :-)


Jeanie

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Author: CVSUSN Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 140490 of 176669
Subject: Re: 100 million Americans cant be wrong Date: 2/17/2006 3:03 PM
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Me: The Constitution "inconvenient"? Instead of a declarative statement, ask yourself a question, "Is the Constitution a national suicide pact?"

Goofy: Then you think the Constitution should have been abrogated when the Black Panthers began killing people in the streets of America? How about when the right-wing militia of Montana began executing lawmen, or robbing banks? When organized crime was machine gunning people in the streets of Chicago and other cities? When the labor movement was fomenting riots in the 1920's? When the whiskey tax rebellion happened in the first days of the Republic? During the draft riots of the pre-civil war? When there were race riots in Los Angeles? What is the magic tripping point for you? That "this time it's different"?

This is quite simple. The Constitution is the Constitution. You follow it, or you don't live in America. Now if you want to change it, that's OK with me, there is a mechanism for doing so. You don't simply declare "I'm the President, and I don't have to follow it because it's old and inconvenient."


No, I don't think the Constitution should EVER be abrogated! The issue, again, is Article II of the Constitution.

Me: Were the actions at the time taken by Lincoln and Roosevelt appropriate? (Ah, but Goofy, you forgot the following questions that provide context. "More correctly, were these steps in concert with Article II? Did Lincoln and Roosevelt uphold their oath? Is the constitutional test probable cause or Article II?")

Goofy: My opinion is that they were not. It is also my opinion that this analogy is absurd. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus when he had an invading army a few miles from the nation's capital, when there was an armed insurrection within the borders of the country and tens of thousands of soldiers were marching on the citizens of the land, armed with artillery, cannon, and rifles. Roosevelt's ill-advised move was undoubtedly racist (we didn't bother interning German-American citizens, who happened to be white), and when we were in a declared war with three nation states equipped with the latest in war materiel and the means to deliver it.

I do not mean to minimize the threat of terrorism, but it's ridiculous to make a comparison to the situation today, particularly within the borders of the United States where more terrorist incidents over the past 20 years have been caused by politically extremist white men than by religious Arab fundamentalists.


The analogy is not absurd. It goes directly to what powers the president has in time of war as Commander-in-Chief. The actions taken by Lincoln and Roosevelt may have proved inappropriate, but were they unconstitutional? Are there conflicts within the Constitution? What takes precedence? Under what conditions?

Goofy: Yes, he does. And, IIRC, he also believes it should be used only with the approval of the court, with appropriate checks and balances, by issuance of a "torture warrant", based on probable cause and the anticipated size of the terrorism threat, and done only under "extraordinary cirsumstances." You may note the difference between that position and what you imply, that "Alan Dershowitz says torture is OK", which is very close to your "wiretapping must be OK because the President says so."

I'm glad Dershowitz has those checks and balances in place.

Let's be very clear. At no point have I ever said wiretapping must be OK because the President says so. First, wiretapping is an inappropriate term. It is data mining. Second, the question again is whether the actions taken by the president are constitutional based on Article II?

Me: One more question. When would you lose sleep, torturing someone with actionable knowledege of a catastrophic that could save lives or NOT torturing someone with actionable knowledge and knowing your inaction KILLED thousands of innocents?

Goofy: I guess you're asking me if I feel like torturing people who might be innocent on the chance that they might have information which could be useful. The answer is no. We have had government who tried that: Joe Stalin comes to mind. Adolph Hitler. And the ever popular Saddam Hussein. Those are the role models for your theory of torture?

I made a point of asking the question very specifically about an individual who had actionable knowledge and using the name Mohammed Atta as the example. If it's not obvious, I wasn't talking about innocents. How one jumps to that conclusion isn't apparent. If Mohammed Atta is no longer a name familiar over the years, then recall Khaleed Sheikh Mohammed, one of the captured heads of planning and operations for bin Laden. He was less than cooperative over a period of time and the US required detailed steps to use more strenuous means. He submitted.

The moral and/or ethical question in the previous post and restated above still stands and is a valid question. I perfectly understand the dilemma we would all face . . . as individuals. That was how it was posed and answered. From a position of governmental responsibility does the dilemma change? I don't know. My inclination is that my answer would not change.

Goofy: You should read the history of the Roman Republic, which became a dictatorship replete with the worst excesses imaginable, just because people like you said "It's OK. Anyway, this 'Republic' thing is sometimes inconvenient, and this time the threat is really big.'" From that point forward, "citizens" such as you and I had no rights at all. And all because you didn't think enough of them to care about them when you had them.

Goofy, as you know I spent my adult life defending the Constitution and protecting Our democratic republic. I voluntarily gave up some of those rights you refer to in order to protect all of yours. While I'm retired, the oath I took is always inside. Fortunately, I have a job that still has impact, however small that may be. I don't need you or anyone else to take the liberty to explain to me how important those rights are that we all enjoy.

Recall that one of those fundamental privileges we enjoy is difference of opinion. I'm enjoying it.


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