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Author: GenXYer Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 884986  
Subject: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 1:16 AM
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Just received my first paycheck of the new year and noticed it was smaller than expected. After a quick search I found out that the government raised the payroll tax by 2% back to the default 6.2% rate. We are all now 2% poorer.

I guess the economy is in much better shape than it was 2 years ago when this tax was reduced, but it does irk me a little to think that Obama has been pushing for the wealthy to shoulder more of the deficit burden, but then allows this ultra regressive tax (it cuts off at $113,700) to hit the people who need the money the most.

Time to rework the budget.
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Author: Retrograde Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870438 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 7:07 AM
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Just received my first paycheck of the new year and noticed it was smaller than expected. After a quick search I found out that the government raised the payroll tax by 2% back to the default 6.2% rate. We are all now 2% poorer.

You mean that 2% we used to send to our underfunded Social Security program is once again funding it? Outrageous!

I guess the economy is in much better shape than it was 2 years ago when this tax was reduced, but it does irk me a little to think that Obama has been pushing for the wealthy to shoulder more of the deficit burden, but then allows this ultra regressive tax (it cuts off at $113,700) to hit the people who need the money the most.

Do you know why the SS tax has an income cutoff? Clue: it isn't to screw the little guy. C'mon, take a guess. Hmmm...

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Author: ems79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870439 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 9:04 AM
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Just received my first paycheck of the new year and noticed it was smaller than expected.

You must not watch or read news much? ;-)

...the government raised the payroll tax by 2% back to the default 6.2% rate. We are all now 2% poorer.

I choose to take the optimists view--this tax is a good tax because it provides a reasonable security net and retirement pay (let's not get into the fact that government dumps in IOUs and uses like a piggy bank)--several years ago we got a "bonus" of around 2% in our pay checks and now we're not getting that bonus anymore...

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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870440 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 9:14 AM
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After a quick search I found out that the government raised the payroll tax by 2% back to the default 6.2% rate.

They didn't raise it, they set it back to what workers had been paying for decades. Most people realized it was going to be temporary - you should've considered that in your budget for the past 2 years.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870441 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 9:15 AM
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You mean that 2% we used to send to our underfunded Social Security program is once again funding it? Outrageous!

Yeah, I mean I am generally always for tax cuts (better if they come with spending cuts, but that never seems to happen!), but this one was always going to have to be put back and it was always going to hurt. It took a bigger bite out of my paycheck than I thought.

I'd feel better about it if I didn't think SS was a crapshoot for everybody under a certain age...

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870442 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 9:33 AM
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After a quick search I found out that the government raised the payroll tax by 2% back to the default 6.2% rate. We are all now 2% poorer.

If you really WERE researching, you'd have found out that our one-year "tax holiday" announced in 2010, took place in 2011, and was extended for 2012, has expired (properly) and that we are back to funding SS at the level that it was at for many, many years. This was a planned expiry, and we are fortunate to have gotten it for an extra year. Of course, everyone with short-term memory challenges are now saying exactly what you said: that they RAISED the taxes. No, they didn't. They simply allowed the CUTS to expire.

but it does irk me a little to think that Obama has been pushing for the wealthy to shoulder more of the deficit burden, but then allows this ultra regressive tax (it cuts off at $113,700) to hit the people who need the money the most.

And it also cuts off the benefit they receive down the line. And they'll need it "most" THEN, as well.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870443 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 10:03 AM
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After getting hammered over and over again the past month with news of the "fiscal cliff" in every media outlet 24/7, I'm surprised anyone could be unaware of this change.

But yes, we are back to the old rate. It affects the budget so plan accordingly.

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Author: jeffbrig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870444 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 10:06 AM
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it does irk me a little to think that Obama has been pushing for the wealthy to shoulder more of the deficit burden, but then allows this ultra regressive tax (it cuts off at $113,700) to hit the people who need the money the most.

Cap the pay-"in", cap the payout.

Social Security benefits are calculated based on your 10 highest years of earning. But what if you make $500k one year? You only get credit for the $113k max recognized by social security. Oh, and since they only consider that max for calculating benefits, they only take SS withholding out of that same amount. Seems perfectly logical to me.

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Author: ishtarastarte Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870445 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 10:10 AM
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Wow, um,

1. That was a temporary reduction from 6.2% to 4.2%. This was known it was going to happen. It should not have been a surprise.

2. You survived with that level of SS tax 2 years ago, and now you can't?

3. You didn't follow any of the news about the "fiscal cliff"?

Ishtar

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870446 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 10:17 AM
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Time to rework the budget.

When it was first announced and it was specifically temporary, it seemed like a good time to shore up savings. If the 2% is such a hit, are you LBYM or not ?

Since the beginning of the change, my family income dropped TO less than 50% of what it was. I guess I am fortunate in that the gov't took more of a hit than me ;) OTOH, much of my current income is self-employment so I pay both sides of FICA.

I knew and prepared for all of this. I am baffled at anyone not paying attention that the original 2% drop was always meant to be temporary.

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Author: mbarr Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870449 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 11:36 AM
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Of course taxes were raised. They were 4.2%, now they're 6.2%. That is a raise in taxes.

Yes, it was designed to be temporary and I have no sympathy for someone who doesn't realize that because you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a fiscal cliff story, but it's still a raise in taxes.

So, in review: Two years ago, taxes were lowered to 4.2%, now they have been raised to 6.2%.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870451 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 12:10 PM
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When it was first announced and it was specifically temporary, it seemed like a good time to shore up savings.

That's what I did. I put 2% into savings (specifically allocated for retirement since this was a chance to get something back from that yearly 12% regardless of what happens with politics: I now have a grand ready to start a roth which has been a goal for a while) for the last two years. However, in that time I have had a couple pay raises so my 2% savings didn't keep up with my actual 2%.

So, it wasn't fun to see my newly fuller paycheck drop, but this was one tax cut we absolutely knew would have to go back. SS isn't sustainable as is.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870452 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 12:10 PM
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You mean that 2% we used to send to our underfunded Social Security program is once again funding it? Outrageous!

It must be doubly outrageous to you that we are still getting George Bush's tax cuts rather than paying what we used to send in under Bill Clinton's tax rates.

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Author: GenXYer Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870453 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 12:17 PM
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Apparently it is new "news" because the WSJ is running a story today about this very subject on the front page. Retailers are worried that consumers will start cutting back on spending, especially on everyday consumption.

I myself view Social Security as simply a "tax" and not an investment because the program has been mismanaged for so many years that it is expected to have negative cash flow within the next 10-15 years. I for one do not realistically expect to receive anything from this program, and if you are 15+ years from retirement and depending on SS as a source of retirement income in your planning then you are better off believing in Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

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Author: VUCommodore Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870454 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 12:48 PM
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Of course this was not the only change in the fiscal deal. So while you are paying 2% more tax (effective rate), somebody with a $1mm annual income is paying 4% more tax (effective rate). The net change is generally progressive.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870458 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 2:32 PM
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Apparently it is new "news" because the WSJ is running a story today about this very subject on the front page. Retailers are worried that consumers will start cutting back on spending, especially on everyday consumption.

Buh buh buh but taxes don't affect behavior, according to libruls.

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870462 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 3:05 PM
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I myself view Social Security as simply a "tax" and not an investment

It's a set of programs to prevent poverty. It includes spousal income, survivor income, and disability income as well as retirement income. It's sort of like light--it's a wave and a photon.

because the program has been mismanaged for so many years that it is expected to have negative cash flow within the next 10-15 years.

No. Because of the recession, SS revenues are down. If our nation can ramp up employment despite automation, off-shoring, H1-B visas, and ramp up paychecks despite greedy executives, SS revenues will be back up where they belong. I emphasize that because of the low SS income cap, moving more $$ into the pockets of the rich and even upper middle class doesn't capture SS revenue the way bigger paychecks for the middle class does.

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Author: jakalant Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870463 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 3:36 PM
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the program has been mismanaged for so many years

Who told you that and why do you believe them. I know of no evidence of this. Would you please share a link about it if you have one.

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870464 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 4:07 PM
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Social Security benefits are calculated based on your 10 highest years of earning.

35 highest years of earnings (adjusted by average wage index), not ten.

-synchronicity

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870465 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 4:10 PM
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<< Apparently it is new "news" because the WSJ is running a story today about this very subject on the front page. Retailers are worried that consumers will start cutting back on spending, especially on everyday consumption. >>

Buh buh buh but taxes don't affect behavior, according to libruls.


Note that it's the WSJ trotting this out, not MotherJones or DailyKos. Hint - do you think the WSJ, now a Murdoch entity, just MIGHT have some particular POV they're trying to support?

Eh, never mind.

-synchronicity

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Author: spl241 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870466 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 4:23 PM
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I do not realistically expect to receive anything from this program, and if you are 15+ years from retirement and depending on SS as a source of income in your planning, then you are better off believing in Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

I definitely think you will receive an SS benefit, and I will end this reply with something to hopefully make you feel somewhat more confident. But first, let's have a quick look at just how dependent the elderly are on the program. It's not cheery.

For nearly 65% of beneficiaries, SS provides the majority of their income. For more than 36%, it provides more than 90% of their income. For 24% of beneficiaries, SS is the sole source of retirement income.....about $1240/month. Multiply that X 12 months and get a shot of depression.

Now for some hopeful re-assurance I alluded to above. This comes from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a non-profit agency that's been around since 1981. It has a staff of 80 and a budget of $16 million provided by donors....no government money goes to them to "say what we want you to say to make people feel good."

SS can pay full benefits through 2033 without any changes. Relatively modest changes would place the program on sound footing for 75 years and beyond. Since the mid-80s, SS has collected more in taxes and other income each year than it pays out in benefits and has amassed combined trust funds of $2.7 trillion, invested in interest-bearing Treasury securities. One of SS's 2 funds, the Disability Insurance (DI) trust fund, faces exhaustion in 2016. The much bigger Old-Age and Survivors Insurance trust fund would last until 2035. Combined, the two funds would be exhausted in 2033. Policymakers should address DI's pending depletion in the context of action on overall Social Security solvency. If they are unable to agree on a sensible solvency package in time, they should reallocate revenues between the two trust funds, as they have often done in the past. After 2033, when the combined trust funds will be exhausted if no changes are made, SS would still be able pay 3/4 of scheduled benefits using its annual tax revenue. Alarmists who claim that Social Security won’t be around when today’s young workers retire either misunderstand or misrepresent the projections.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3261

Cheers (???).....spl, not quite getting $1240, DW a little less....

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Author: ems79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870467 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 4:47 PM
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For nearly 65% of beneficiaries, SS provides the majority of their income. For more than 36%, it provides more than 90% of their income. For 24% of beneficiaries, SS is the sole source of retirement income.....

I would argue that this may be a case of spinning facts by careful use of specific terms... In this case I'm questioning the term "income":

Just because your investments do not generate much regular income that appears on a tax document does not indicate you lack means. You may have significant assets in tax advantaged accounts like 401K/IRA/bonds which shield the returns until withdrawal, or you may simply have investments where the value grows, but do not throw off dividends or interest--like Berkshire or Apple.

Cash in a savings account generates very little income now... even if you had $200,000 in cash in savings, you are likely not earning much more than 1% per year, or roughly $165/mo.

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870468 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 5:18 PM
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Note that it's the WSJ trotting this out, not MotherJones or DailyKos.

Or you could say the reverse. Decreased income for just about everyone is likely to effect economic behavior. WSJ is a financial paper, motherjones and daily kos are primarily political.

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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870469 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 5:22 PM
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I guess the economy is in much better shape than it was 2 years ago when this tax was reduced, but it does irk me a little to think that Obama has been pushing for the wealthy to shoulder more of the deficit burden, but then allows this ultra regressive tax (it cuts off at $113,700) to hit the people who need the money the most.

I am actually 100% fine with this regressive tax being restored to it's standard level. The 2% payroll tax cut was one of the stupidest, most ridiculous attempts to buy votes that I have ever seen in my life. When there isn't a soul in Washington who is willing to reform Social Security so that it can actually remain viable longer given our country's demographics, it's asinine to cut the tax that pays for the system.

</soapbox>

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870471 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 6:50 PM
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The 2% payroll tax cut was one of the stupidest, most ridiculous attempts to buy votes that I have ever seen in my life.

Because of the severity of the recession and pain of the middle class as he entered office, many possible tax cuts to help the middle and lower middle classes were discussed within the Obama Administration. This was the tax relief decided upon (with some heated disagreement, I might add). Buying votes was not likely part of the equation. That said, I, too, disagreed with this approach and am glad it's finally over.

Rejected ideas that I can remember:
Gasoline tax cut
Income tax cut for first one or two brackets (objection to this was that a lot of lower middle income folks pay no income taxes, just FICA taxes)
Increase level of income eligible for EITC (earned income tax credit)

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Author: MissEdithKeeler Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870472 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 7:12 PM
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Apparently it is new "news" because the WSJ is running a story today about this very subject on the front page. Retailers are worried that consumers will start cutting back on spending, especially on everyday consumption.

I myself view Social Security as simply a "tax" and not an investment because the program has been mismanaged for so many years that it is expected to have negative cash flow within the next 10-15 years. I for one do not realistically expect to receive anything from this program, and if you are 15+ years from retirement and depending on SS as a source of retirement income in your planning then you are better off believing in Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.


Social Security is going to be there. Seriously, there's so much chicken little "the sky is falling" over this issue, but Social Security will be there. It may pay a little less than what it does right now, but it will be there in some form. Remember, SS pays current benefits out of current funds. So when they talk about "reserves running dry," that means there is no "padding" to shore up any deficits that aren't being collected by current monies.

The worst case scenaios being forecasted are that SS, if the reserves run dry, will still collect enough money to pay 3/4 of promised benefits through 2086.

I'm not planning my retirement around SS, so any money I get will be gravy.

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Author: martybl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870474 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/14/2013 8:04 PM
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[I]t does irk me a little to think that Obama has been pushing for the wealthy to shoulder more of the deficit burden . . .

To be fair to the President, the final "fiscal cliff" deal is a long ways from what he was advocating, and what he would have really liked. His role in the negotiations reaffirmed the impression that he probably ought not to plan on high-stakes poker as a post-Presidential career, however.

The Republican Party was able to exert significant influence on the final bill, for better or worse, depending on your political perspective. LBYM tie-in - IMHO, the Republicans were able to soften the bill enough that a contribution to the RNC seems like money well invested.

martybl

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Author: MisterFungi Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870486 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 9:36 AM
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<... it does irk me a little to think that Obama has been pushing for the wealthy to shoulder more of the deficit burden, but then allows this ultra regressive tax (it cuts off at $113,700) to hit the people who need the money the most. >

Obama??? You think that "Obama" is the reason why the Social Security tax holiday was not renewed???

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Author: llamalluv Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870487 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 9:37 AM
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Maybe he lives in Illinois, where we never actually got to experience the holiday? That FICA cut paid for our state income tax increase (from 3% to 5%) over the last two years, and we have another two years before the rate is scheduled to decrease (if it actually does) down to 3.75%.

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Author: GenXYer Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870491 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 11:00 AM
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I do live in Illinois and thank you for pointing out that the state increased our income taxes by 2%, which basically negated the "windfall" courtesy of our friends in Washington D.C.

I suppose I was fortunate back then to not have to rework my budget to account for the extra 2% I was supposed to receive.

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Author: Brooklyn1948 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870495 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 11:21 AM
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I'm not planning my retirement around SS, so any money I get will be gravy.

My husband and I weren't planning our retirement around SS either but DH started getting laid off in his early 50's. We had to sell our house of 14 years to raise cash. We had to relocate to another state to take a job that paid 50% less. The job was horrible so we sold another house and came back to NY where DH landed a job and a year and a half later the company went under. The company that took over kept the department that my husband worked in so he got lucky in that respect.
My DH is nearing 66 years of age and has been working 12 hour days for the past 7 years. No pay for overtime. No raise last year. They know they've got you in this economy and they take advantage.
We will be retiring in a few months and heading out of state. We will be living a much simpler lifestyle on 50% less money. If it hadn't been for social security, we'd been living under the Brooklyn Bridge instead of walking over it!
One never knows what ones circumstances will be in the future. I am glad that you were able to plan for yours!

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870497 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 11:28 AM
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I'm not planning my retirement around SS, so any money I get will be gravy.

That's all well and good but when the government is confiscating 12 percent of my income for my entire life, ostensibly for my retirement, it would be nice if I got to see some of it eventually.

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Author: Brooklyn1948 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870500 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 11:44 AM
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That's all well and good but when the government is confiscating 12 percent of my income for my entire life, ostensibly for my retirement, it would be nice if I got to see some of it eventually.



AMEN!

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Author: Watty56 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870501 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 11:48 AM
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... then allows this ultra regressive tax (it cuts off at $113,700) to hit the people who need the money the most. ...

Actually when you consider benefits social security greatly favors low income people since they proportionally get a much higher benefit compared to what they paid than higher income people.

For example using this quick calculator;
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/cgi-bin/benefit6.cgi

Someone making $20,000 a year would get $825 a month at the age of 66.

Someone making five times as much, $100,000, would get $2,128 which is about 2.58 times as much even though they paid five times as much into social security.

This of course does not factor in people making millions of dollars a year but to call it "ulta regressive" is very incorrect.

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Author: Watty56 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870502 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 11:51 AM
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I also forgot to mention that high income people will likely have to pay income taxes on most of their social security so they get even less benifit from it.


http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Taxation_of_Social_Security_b...

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Author: ed1007 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870507 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 1:40 PM
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He was and is a politician. As are most if not all representatives and senators. I hold out hope that there are still one or two between the several hundred that are truly citizens serving their country, but not much hope.

That said.

>>Buying votes was not likely part of the equation.<<

Of course is was part of the equation, for BOTH parties. The biggest term in the equation... depends on who is asking. But certainly it was part of the equation.

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Author: ed1007 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870508 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 1:42 PM
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>>I do live in Illinois and thank you for pointing out that the state increased our income taxes by 2%, which basically negated the "windfall" courtesy of our friends in Washington D.C. <<

Well not entirely if you were itemizing. State tax is deductable of federal income tax SS tax is not. Just saying....

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870513 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 3:18 PM
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<<Do you know why the SS tax has an income cutoff? Clue: it isn't to screw the little guy. C'mon, take a guess. Hmmm...


>>



Why yes, I do know.


The idea is to keep the amount of taxes people pay roughly proportionate to the benefits people receive.



Seattle pioneer

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Author: ems79 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870514 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 3:30 PM
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The idea is to keep the amount of taxes people pay roughly proportionate to the benefits people receive.

That explains SS and Medicare...

But not income tax :) ... well unless the proportional benefit is that you're able/allowed to work in the US which being the land of opportunity has given you the environment needed to make tons of income...

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Author: llamalluv Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870517 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 4:26 PM
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Only two more years! (Fingers crossed Quinn doesn't change his mind!)

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Author: llamalluv Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870518 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 4:28 PM
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That does make the pill slightly less bitter. :)

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870521 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/15/2013 7:37 PM
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You should just drop your 401K contribution by 2% to make up for it.

6

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870542 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 3:35 PM
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<<and we have another two years before the rate is scheduled to decrease (if it actually does) down to 3.75%.
>>



I would suppose that there is perhaps a 1% chance that the tax rate will actually go down as scheduled.


Among the oldest playbooks for politicians is a "temporary" tax increase which then is made permanent at a convenient moment.


I wonder if there are any Illinois bookies taking bets on the tax increase actually expiring?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870545 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 4:07 PM
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<<We will be retiring in a few months and heading out of state. We will be living a much simpler lifestyle on 50% less money. If it hadn't been for social security, we'd been living under the Brooklyn Bridge instead of walking over it!
One never knows what ones circumstances will be in the future. I am glad that you were able to plan for yours!
>>


People tend to assume that they will be able to work at a high paying job as long as they wish. That's a mistaken assumption, in my opinion. Perhaps your experience is common enough these days that people aren't making that assumption as often.


My financial planning method was to LBYM when I was working and savinf and investing the money I didn't need, rather than spending it on junk and wasteful travel.

When working lost its appeal at age 57, I retired, and at age 63 I have a lot more money than I will ever need, because I still LBYM and still don't spend much on junk and wasteful travel.

You may spend less in retirement, but my own experience is that you can live on less and have a quality life that is worth living!

Today in Seattle the high temperature will be about 40 degrees, but the sun is shining and I've been out bicycling, including a local library where I'm busily using their free internet service.


Good luck and don't feel bad about not spending as much as you thought you would. I would hope that with some ingenuity you will find you have a quality life to live!



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870549 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 4:25 PM
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<<The idea is to keep the amount of taxes people pay roughly proportionate to the benefits people receive.

That explains SS and Medicare...

But not income tax :) ... well unless the proportional benefit is that you're able/allowed to work in the US which being the land of opportunity has given you the environment needed to make tons of income...
>>



The Federal income tax was sold by Democrats as a method to gouge the rich. It's still being sold that way.


The great irony is that for most of that time, it has been used to gouge the middle class, and Democrats are anxious to repeat that ASAP.


Perhaps it's worth remembering that Woodrow Wilson got both the Federal Income Tax approved and the Federal Reserve Bank approved about a hundred years ago. In that time, the dollar has declined in real value by 99% and the Federal income tax has grown into a moster of complexity, if not rapacity.


Thank you, Democrats!


( Hey! I DIDN'T start this thinly disquised political thread!)



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870552 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 4:37 PM
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<<Because of the severity of the recession and pain of the middle class as he entered office, many possible tax cuts to help the middle and lower middle classes were discussed within the Obama Administration. This was the tax relief decided upon (with some heated disagreement, I might add). Buying votes was not likely part of the equation.>>



Be serious! The political fallout of taxes is something pretty much all politicians are sensitive to! And well they should be.


Taxes amount to a legal way to rob people. It is well for government to take care when they use that power.

Taxes are a necessary evil. It is well to keep in mind that they are evil as much as they are necessary.


Republicans tend to place too much emphasis on taxes being evil. Democrats tend to regard taxes as being a positive thing. Being a necessary evil seems about the right balance to me.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: GenXYer Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870572 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 6:38 PM
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<<When working lost its appeal at age 57, I retired, and at age 63 I have a lot more money than I will ever need, because I still LBYM and still don't spend much on junk and wasteful travel.>>

I agree with frugality, saving, and enjoying a high quality of life well into retirement, but I take offense to calling travel wasteful. In my mind travel (even if it is not to an exotic island, or to see a famous world heritage site) is meaningful and often one of the most valuable experiences one can have in life. I encounter way too many ignorant Americans who live in their own tiny bubble and think nothing matters outside of their home, town, or even country.

To me, if I cannot travel to places I have never been to, talked to people who have lived much different lives than I, experienced cultures that unlike our own, and made wonderful memories with my BW as we explore this fascinating world, then life is not worth living.

We delay gratification and live an LBYM life for a purpose, and I hope that purpose is not to simply hoard money that you will never enjoy. I know far too many uninteresting people like that. Life is simply too short and too beautiful. I would hope that many of use live frugally in order to enjoy the fruits of our "harvest" as some might say, and to make our lives that much more interesting, unique, and extraordinary.

Sure, travel can be expensive and some regard it as "wasteful," but to me there is a line between living below your means and not living at all.

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870576 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 6:51 PM
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When working lost its appeal at age 57, I retired, and at age 63 I have a lot more money than I will ever need, because I still LBYM and still don't spend much on junk and wasteful travel.

Or, more importantly, kids.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870577 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 7:29 PM
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When working lost its appeal at age 57, I retired, and at age 63 I have a lot more money than I will ever need, because I still LBYM and still don't spend much on junk and wasteful travel.

Or, more importantly, kids.


Adult kids should be supporting themselves.

(When there are mental health issues this can be difficult. Another relative has been laid off a few times because of employers downsizing or closing.)

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Author: determinedmom Big red star, 1000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870579 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/16/2013 7:57 PM
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I myself view Social Security as simply a "tax" and not an investment because the program has been mismanaged for so many years that it is expected to have negative cash flow within the next 10-15 years. I for one do not realistically expect to receive anything from this program, and if you are 15+ years from retirement and depending on SS as a source of retirement income in your planning then you are better off believing in Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

I think you are perhaps confusing the financial projections for Medicare with those for Social Security. As others have posted SS is in pretty good shape needing some relatively minor tweaks to insure solvency for a long time. I am actually confused by the statement of mismanagement. I think the program itself is managed fine. (I did disagree with the 2% cut in payroll tax from the outset and in my personal budgeting and projections always considered it temporary)

Medicare does have solvency problems which need to be addressed. The problem isn't with Medicare itself but with the rising cost of healthcare. That does need to be addressed.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870595 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 9:44 AM
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I agree with frugality, saving, and enjoying a high quality of life well into retirement, but I take offense to calling travel wasteful.

Why would you take offense? He was talking about his own spending and interests.

PSU

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Author: Jeanwa Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870601 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 12:15 PM
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<<When working lost its appeal at age 57, I retired, and at age 63 I have a lot more money than I will ever need, because I still LBYM and still don't spend much on junk and wasteful travel.>>
===================================
I agree with frugality, saving, and enjoying a high quality of life well into retirement, but I take offense to calling travel wasteful.
-------------------------------

He didn't call travel wasteful. He said he didn't spend money on wasteful travel.

There is a difference.

Since I know SP travels, I'm pretty sure he doesn't consider all travel wasteful.

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870604 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 12:59 PM
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still don't spend much on...wasteful travel.

Are some kinds of travel wasteful and others not, or are all kinds wasteful?

Is camping OK but other types of travel wasteful?
Are tents OK but RVs wasteful?
Is visiting the wilderness & National Parks OK but visiting cities wasteful?
Is visiting family OK but other visiting wasteful?
Is flying always wasteful?
Is visiting the USA OK, but visiting other cultures wasteful?
Is visiting countries with conservative governments OK but visiting other countries wasteful ;-)
Are cheap motels OK but nice hotels wasteful?
Are pickup campers OK but other RVs wasteful?
Is living your whole life in the same county OK but any moving wasteful?
Is travel you can afford OK but borrowing to travel wasteful?
Is living any way but the way you do wasteful?!
Is the Zero Waste Home lady wasteful (she pays for her family's annual summer trip to France to visit family by renting out her house)?

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870605 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 1:12 PM
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Travel to family reunions is wasteful.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870612 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 3:24 PM
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<<To me, if I cannot travel to places I have never been to, talked to people who have lived much different lives than I, experienced cultures that unlike our own, and made wonderful memories with my BW as we explore this fascinating world, then life is not worth living.

>>




You are certainly entitled to your values. But your comment above is a good example of the arrogance so common among the wealthy middle and upper classes these days.


I would put it right up there with the comment ascribed to Marie Antoinette about bread and cake.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870614 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 3:31 PM
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<<I think you are perhaps confusing the financial projections for Medicare with those for Social Security. As others have posted SS is in pretty good shape needing some relatively minor tweaks to insure solvency for a long time. I am actually confused by the statement of mismanagement. I think the program itself is managed fine>>


I think you are mistaken.

Social Security tax rates were raised under Reagan with the idea that a funding surplus would be created to finance SS for baby boomers.

Instead, that surplus was effectively spent. While Federal bonds theoretically preserve that "savings", in fact redeeming those bonds could only be done by issueing additional debt, cutting spending or increasing taxes.

The "savings" are really imaginary. The WWII gweneration played the boomer generation for suckers with that one.

If there are no savings, how are benefits for the large boomer generation going to be paid for? We shall see, but I'll bet that it will be done by yet more tax increases on Gen X, Y and Z.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870619 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 5:11 PM
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He didn't call travel wasteful. He said he didn't spend money on wasteful travel.

There is a difference.

Since I know SP travels, I'm pretty sure he doesn't consider all travel wasteful.


So, would flying from Dallas to Chicago one morning so one's daughter could play in the Children's Museum-sponsored play area at O'Hare for a few hours, then flying back to Dallas later that afternoon, be considered "wasteful"?

I'm just asking for a friend.

-synchronicity

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870620 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 5:17 PM
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So, would flying from Dallas to Chicago one morning so one's daughter could play in the Children's Museum-sponsored play area at O'Hare for a few hours, then flying back to Dallas later that afternoon, be considered "wasteful”?

Just having the daughter would be considered wasteful.

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870621 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 5:20 PM
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Just having the daughter would be considered wasteful.

What if you sell the kid for parts later? I mean, aren't healthy kidneys worth a fair bit on the black market?

-synchronicity

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870622 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 5:26 PM
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You are certainly entitled to your values. But your comment above is a good example of the arrogance so common among the wealthy middle and upper classes these days.


I would put it right up there with the comment ascribed to Marie Antoinette about bread and cake.



Seattle Pioneer


I aspire for a wealthy middle to upper class retirement.
(Doesn't mean that it is going to happen).

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870623 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 5:28 PM
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What if you sell the kid for parts later? I mean, aren't healthy kidneys worth a fair bit on the black market?

Why not fly her to Juarez instead of Chicago?

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Author: synchronicityII Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870624 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 6:11 PM
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Why not fly her to Juarez instead of Chicago?

Well, it's cheaper to fly to Chicago.

-synchronicity

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Author: Brooklyn1948 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870625 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 6:36 PM
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I have never been to Europe and as far as I am concerned, no big deal.
I live in a fantastic neighborhood just one subway stop from Manhattan.
We have gotten to see lots of Broadway plays because there is a TKTS booth in Brooklyn now and we can see the best plays at 50% off.
I don't feel that I am missing out by not traveling. There is so much
diversity in this city that we don't need to travel to see people from other countries as they are our neighbors. A ten minute walk from my block brings me to a neighborhood with lots of Lebanese stores and restaurants. I think maybe there are more Lebanese in our section of Brooklyn than in Lebanon. (maybe). My husband works for an international company and has traveled to Mumbai, London, Switzerland. He was always eager to come back home.
So, not all of us feel cheated if we don't travel. It's very expensive and I'd rather travel around my own neighborhood which means walking over the Brooklyn Bridge, looking out my window to see what progress is being made on the new Freedom Tower, etc. etc.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870627 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 7:54 PM
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"wasteful" pretty much means - "stuff I don't like and therefore think others shouldn't do." Apply that in any context you like where the word is used.

Me, I make travel a priority and would rather spend my money on that than just about anything else in my budget with the possible exception of food. It's not a waste for me, and I cannot think why anyone else would care how I spend my money.

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870628 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 8:31 PM
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I cannot think why anyone else would care how I spend my money.

Neither could Marie Antoinette.

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Author: squirmyworm Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870635 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/17/2013 11:03 PM
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Guess there is a little bright side to being in a lower income bracket--I barely noticed my paycheck was smaller until I was entering the amount in quicken and compared it with the one before. I figured I had worked fewer hours than the previous pay period. Totally forgot about the tax cut expiring.

I've also received pay raises and barely noticed the increase in my paycheck as well.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870637 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 12:14 AM
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Nonsense.

Love, love, love travel. I'd rather spend my money on that than anything. You might spend it elsewhere, but again - not your money, so not your business.

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870638 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 4:24 AM
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and here, again, is where a sarcasm font would come in handy.


peace & Marie Antionette
t

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Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 8:33 AM
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Me, I make travel a priority and would rather spend my money on that than just about anything else in my budget with the possible exception of food.

Wasn't there some study a while back that said we remember and get more true enjoyment out of experiences (like travel) than most of the things we spend money on? In that case, it seems like spending on travel or experiences should be prioritized, where the money is there.

Whether that means a trip to Paris or camping in your own state is up to the individual. What will bring you the greatest happiness?

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Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 12:09 PM
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I have never been to Europe and as far as I am concerned, no big deal.
I live in a fantastic neighborhood


The process of finding my way and dealing with the necessities of life in an unfamiliar milieu can be as much fun as anything I see, hear, or do there. But some sights/experiences are just unforgettable. I think it's similar with camping...taking care of yourself outdoors is as interesting as the views.

You're lucky to be living in such an interesting and beautiful place as Brooklyn (my home town!). You might miss it when you move to the MA burbs, but then, MA may feel exotic to you ;-)

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Author: Brooklyn1948 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870652 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 1:09 PM
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You're lucky to be living in such an interesting and beautiful place as Brooklyn (my home town!). You might miss it when you move to the MA burbs, but then, MA may feel exotic to you ;-)


I like living close to the water but not on the water. In my new town I will be able to sit and watch the whale watching boat while relaxing with a cup of coffee.
I have 3 grandchildren in the past three years and see them infrequently because everyone is so busy and they are a few hundred miles away. We are moving so that we can unite as a family again.
I am thrilled that there is a commuter rail right in the town and it goes into Boston. The town itself has much to offer. Above all else I want and need peace and quiet at this time in our lives. The city is very noisy. Living in an apartment building with 80 apartments means that someone is always renovating or making noise. There's noise inside, outside, above us from police and tourist helicopters. And every time the President was in town, two Chinook helicopters flew low and right over my building.
It's maddening. I will not miss any of it!

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870654 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 2:41 PM
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<<Veblen is famous in the history of economic thought for combining a Darwinian evolutionary perspective with his new institutionalist approach to economic analysis. He combined sociology with economics in his masterpiece The Theory of the Leisure Class (1899) where he argued that there was a basic distinction between the productiveness of "industry", run by engineers manufacturing goods, vis-a-vis the parasitism of "business" that exists only to make profits for a leisure class. The chief activity of the leisure class was "conspicuous consumption", and their economic contribution is "waste," activity that contributes nothing to productivity.>>



Were Thorsten Veblen writing today, I don't doubt that he would identify mindless "travel" about the earth in jet transports one of the new forms of parasitism and waste with which this society is afflicted.

While the fashionable class of such parasites usually makes war on the lifestyle of the working class in the name of global warming, they do nothing to curb their own consumption of "travel" on eco vacations or whatever around the world.

And of course travel lends itself nicely to conspicuous consumption. Explaining your travels about the water cooler is one of the privileges of such behavior, and the leisure class in the audience can be depended upon to "ooh and ahh" about travel as a precursor to explaining ones own next trip.

Of course our leisure class today will protect it's fashionable habit of "travel" from any challenges.


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870655 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 3:02 PM
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You know, SP, it's perfectly acceptable to say, "I could never understand why people travel," and end the discussion there. It is not necessary to damn and denounce those people who do like to travel.

You don't like it, fine. Some of us do.

Nancy

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Author: Lea77 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870659 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 4:11 PM
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You don't like it, fine. Some of us do.

Indeed, Nancy. If I had never traveled I would never have seen an ocean, or a desert. It's not all snotty chats around the water cooler.

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870666 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 5:20 PM
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Explaining your travels about the water cooler is one of the privileges of such behavior, and the leisure class in the audience can be depended upon to "ooh and ahh" about travel as a precursor to explaining ones own next trip.

Next thing you know people will start talking about their kids.

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Author: snippee Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870667 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/18/2013 5:53 PM
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It is not necessary to damn and denounce those people who do like to travel.


Sure it is. It's not like he claims to be libertarian or anything.

Oh, wait.

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Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/20/2013 12:46 AM
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I don't feel that I am missing out by not traveling. There is so much
diversity in this city that we don't need to travel to see people from other countries as they are our neighbors.


First, usually when people talk about enjoying traveling, they mean leisure travel when you get to actually see sights and experience the culture versus work travel where one usually sees an office and a hotel and airport and that's about it.

I live in a very international area too - Metro DC. However, there's a BIG difference between having a diverse city versus traveling to another part of the world. Having a diverse city means "I like to meet people from other cultures, as long as it's within my culture/country/language". Traveling to a foreign country means it's the traveler who has to conform in some way to the country they're visiting - they have to put themselves outside of their normal comfort zone - of a city they might not know, a language they may not speak, and customs they might not be very familiar with. Some people don't like that - they're not comfortable being out of their element, and want their regular comforts, habits, and things that are familiar to them. And that's OK too.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870720 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/20/2013 12:12 PM
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mindless "travel"
Nothing mindless about it. My travel experiences have been formative, and have made me in large part who I am. To me, they are irreplaceable - the people I have met along the way, and the experiences I have had are part of me.

Easy to criticize others for doing stuff you personally don't like. That's silly. You don't like something, don't do it. You think it's wasteful, don't spend your money on it. To me, it's an important thing I value.

I may not spend time foraging - or going to a shooting range - or golfing - or building model planes - or [fill in anything you like here] - but I wouldn't criticize others for spending their time and money on these things. To do so would be to be an arrogant meddler.

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Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/20/2013 5:12 PM
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<<I live in a very international area too - Metro DC. However, there's a BIG difference between having a diverse city versus traveling to another part of the world. Having a diverse city means "I like to meet people from other cultures, as long as it's within my culture/country/language". Traveling to a foreign country means it's the traveler who has to conform in some way to the country they're visiting - they have to put themselves outside of their normal comfort zone - of a city they might not know, a language they may not speak, and customs they might not be very familiar with. Some people don't like that - they're not comfortable being out of their element, and want their regular comforts, habits, and things that are familiar to them. And that's OK too.
>>



Most people's leisure travel to foreign parts is properly compared to a visit to Disney World.

Most people don't bother to learn the language, history, politics, business, economics and culture of the countries they visit, which would require actual WORK.

They are a lot more like visitors to Disney World, expecting to be entertained. And that's the way most tourist destinations function.

Leisure travel is usually about entertaining the rubes who come for a visit, and separating them from as much of their money as can be managed.



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Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/20/2013 5:16 PM
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<<I may not spend time foraging - or going to a shooting range - or golfing - or building model planes - or [fill in anything you like here] - but I wouldn't criticize others for spending their time and money on these things. To do so would be to be an arrogant meddler>>



If people compared their leisure travel to golf I probably wouldn't be so critical.


You'll notice that our liberal friends are in one of their periodoc frenzies to burden those who might like to own guns and use them for target practice.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870727 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/20/2013 5:39 PM
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Leisure travel is usually about entertaining the rubes who come for a visit, and separating them from as much of their money as can be managed.

And you know this how?

Nancy

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Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870732 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/21/2013 5:27 AM
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Most people's leisure travel ...

Most people don't bother ...



I very much appreciate that you wrote MOST.


peace & ik probeer te leren
t







(someone who makes more of work travel, when possible)

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Author: Brooklyn1948 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870737 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/21/2013 11:55 AM
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They are a lot more like visitors to Disney World, expecting to be entertained. And that's the way most tourist destinations function.


Would you believe that our family has never even entertained the thought of going to Disney World, Disney Land or any other large amusement park? When I was a kid I do remember going to Coney Island which has pretty much been destroyed due to storm Sandy.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 870769 of 884986
Subject: Re: 2% pay cut Date: 1/22/2013 9:58 AM
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Leisure travel is usually about entertaining the rubes who come for a visit, and separating them from as much of their money as can be managed.
First of all - how would you actually know - since you never travel?

Most people don't bother to learn the language, history, politics, business, economics and culture of the countries they visit, which would require actual WORK.
Secondly - many of us who really, really value travel DO these things. I've done it for every place I have visited. And the implications have rippled out from there beyond study for the time I am there.

The fact that I am studying Hindi now, and subscribe to not one but TWO Indian magazines for the ex-pat community, and that I watch Bollywood, and that I deeply understand Indian culture in a way that typically only someone who is either desi or married to a desi understands it - all directly relates to my trips to Nepal and India a decade and a half ago.

Every trip I have taken, I have made an effort to understand the local history, economics, language, culture and community. I am not sure why you assume one wouldn't. To me that's half the fun of going on a trip.

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