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Subject:  Re: Cardinal Carlo Martini Date:  10/3/2012  12:12 PM
Author:  NigelGlitter Number:  183189 of 196947

I further claim that this explains our experience of the world, and specifically morality, better than the subjective view. It is the only way to make sense of the claim "raping little girls is wrong". It's wrong because ultimately it violates the unchanging, good nature of God.

It's wrong because as social animals we require particular behaviors from our members, just like all social creatures. We do this by balancing individual rights and freedoms against the need for social order, and the fulcrum point is where your freedom infringes on anothers. We enforce this balance through mores and laws. Other creatures use chemical markers, biting, physical aggression, etc.

That's the common intuitive insight that brings about a fairly common morality through most religions, philosophies, and cultures. Folks know themselves, not god.

I think god was an easy and brilliant invention that provided an imaginary police officer. Live life this way, or else. It might not sway everyone, but it certainly keeps some, perhaps many folks from committing acts that society would use police, courts, and/or jails to deal with.

It's a beautiful thing when it comes to the golden rule, helping the less well off, not killing or stealing, less so when it comes to killing infidels, or bashing gays.

I'm claiming that there is an objective basis for morality, found in the commands of a good God to us, which we're obligated to follow. That I don't perfectly know God's mind on morality is an entirely different issue.

As to an objective morality existing, I don't see anyone, anywhere, from any culture, background, or historical era, ever trying to convince anyone else as to objective truths and realities. No lengthy threads here at the fool or on other message boards about whether or not 2+2=4 or that the Earth actually orbits the Sun.

When it was proven that the Earth did actually orbit the Sun, there was a large segment of society that had their entire belief system threatened, and it took some time before they pulled their head's out of the sand. BUT an objective truth is an objective truth that can be verified by anyone, and does not require someone's word on it. Locking up the guy that let the cat out of the bag couldn't stop the inexorable mudslide of truth from finally prevailing.

Your objective morality is what you believe your god wants. To me, the inability to know perfectly what god wants is not a different issue. Morality is derived from the totality of our existence, which has evolved over millions of years. The only place I see disagreement is where that nature comes from, nature itself, or god. We're both fumbling as best we can to understand what exactly we are, and what type of life leads to the highest success for we humans and ourselves.
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