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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 35757  
Subject: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/7/2004 8:12 PM
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http://www.boundless.org/1999/features/a0000122.html

She starts noticing the mothers all around her–especially young, attractive mothers–pushing strollers down the street, cooing at their babies in supermarkets, and loading up their shopping carts with enormous quantities of meat, vegetables, cans, jars, boxes of detergent, and packages of diapers, as she purchases a few meager items for her own dinner. All the horrors she once connected with babies–their noise and messiness, their garish plastic toys, their constant crying and demands that wear down and dull even the most strong-minded of women–are eclipsed by their previously underestimated virtues; their cuteness, their tiny shoes and mittens, their love and wonder, and, perhaps most enviable of all, the change of life they cause, pulling a woman out of herself and distracting her from her own familiar problems.
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Author: 3muttsmom Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23500 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/7/2004 8:33 PM
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O...M...G!

Blech!

3MM

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23501 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/7/2004 9:13 PM
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http://www.boundless.org/1999/features/a0000122.html

I don't know if you posted the link as sarcasism or not, but I found it very interesting, and in some ways truthful. It is lonely when you are 34 and none of your friends can "come out and play" because they all have family obligations. It's a tough road, even if you know you don't want kids, trying to figure out whether you want to be totally alone, or married, or something in between. It seems nobody gives yong women all the gory details that come with it. Yes, it's wonderful having your independence, but it's also lonesome. It's great being able to travel all over, but that also means you don't put down roots. There's a lot to it that nobody lets us in on when we are growing up.

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Author: mctubbs Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23502 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/7/2004 9:36 PM
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OMG! I forgot to have children! Now it's to late!

I guess I'll have to go to Africa with my friend, instead of Six Flags with the hubby and kiddies. How completely unfulfilled I am.

MCT

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23503 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/7/2004 11:17 PM
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It seems nobody gives yong women all the gory details that come with it. Yes, it's wonderful having your independence, but it's also lonesome. It's great being able to travel all over, but that also means you don't put down roots

Gory? Some of us actually like being alone, and you don't need to have a family to put down roots.

pix
moved twice in the past 25 years

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23504 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/7/2004 11:21 PM
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Gory? Some of us actually like being alone, and you don't need to have a family to put down roots.

pix
moved twice in the past 25 years


Pixie, I simply meant there are trade-offs. I moved a whole heck of a lot more than twice in 25 years. Although I haven't moved in 8 years, before that I probably moved 15 times in 20 years. I've probably moved almost 30 times in my life. Not quite once a year until I got married, but close.

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23505 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:08 AM
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Pixie, I simply meant there are trade-offs

Of course there are trade offs! Every single decision you make leaves countless alternatives not taken. So? It's not the end of the world that I decided to have an omelet for dinner instead of salmon or chicken.

What I found so totally offensive about that article was its tone that a woman has a "use by" date, after which she's just some pitiable loser, at the mercy of horny divorced men that are only going to take advantage of her until some ripe young peach comes along to take him away. That once she reaches her 30s or 40s she will realize how shallow and useless the career she thought she wanted actually was, and she will spend the rest of her life as a pathetic, clingy creature, driving men away with her desperate need, regretting the "possibles" she threw away in the rashness of youth. That the only true happiness comes with Children! A cottage with a Garden! And a Husband! (Even if he's no great shakes--at least you're married! Better than nothin', eh?)

I find it so amazingly offensive that there are still people out there selling the idea that women are going to regret it later if they don't have a family. I'm fairly certain that most (not all--most) women who really want children know it before their clock starts ticking and make their decisions accordingly. They may not all be lucky enough to actually find a guy, but if they act as desperate as the women described in that article they're driving them away. It's that pitiful behavior that kept them from having families, not their careers. I know I wouldn't want to get involved with them.

I'm lucky that I did find a man to spend my life with. But if anything should happen to him, I doubt that I'm going to go hunting up a new hubby just so I'm not alone. I've always felt it takes a mighty good man to be better than no man at all and I know I'll feel a lot better alone than I would be stuck with any old guy just to have a husband.

I've got my roots, I've got my DH, I've got my friends, and I don't feel that I've been betrayed because my mother didn't "warn" me that I'll be a lonely, shriveled old raisin in my childless old age. I think that selling people a bill of goods like that--that you will only find true happiness through other people instead of inside yourself--there's the betrayal. Teach your kids to be true to themselves and the rest of life will fall into place. If it happens that they are unlucky enough to not find a lifetime companion, at least they'll be happy with the only person they can truly count on to be there through thick and thin--themselves.

pix

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23506 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 2:26 AM
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What I found so totally offensive about that article was its tone that a woman has a "use by" date, after which she's just some pitiable loser, at the mercy of horny divorced men that are only going to take advantage of her until some ripe young peach comes along to take him away.

I didn't get that same impression from the article. I thought it was simply going over (granted, much traveled ground) the fact that some women that actually want to get married put it off because they are busy building their career. I didn't notice the attitude in it. Oh well!

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23507 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:08 AM
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I didn't notice the attitude in it.

How could you miss it? It starts of with the tale of a young woman whose every friend views her impending wedding as a betrayal. Message: singles are like crabs in the fish market, pulling back down into the basket any who try to escape.

The author says We were fighting as much a battle against ourselves as against the snares of domesticity. And if one of us were to give way, the rest would feel weakened in our own inner struggles, betrayed by our friend's abandonment of the supposedly happy, autonomous life. For the truth is, once you have ceased being single, you suddenly discover that all that energy you spent propelling yourself toward an independent existence was only going to be useful if you were planning to spend the rest of your life as a nun or a philosopher on a mountaintop or maybe a Hollywood-style adventuress who winds up staring into her empty bourbon glass four years later wondering if it was all d--- worth it.

Hogwash. Until you learn to be content in your own skin, you are not likely to find happiness spending a life with someone else.

Then she says When a woman is young and reasonably attractive, men will pass through her life with the regularity of subway trains; even when the platform is empty, she'll expect another to be coming along soon. No woman in her right mind would want to commit herself to marriage so early and But if a woman remains single until her age creeps up past thirty, she may find herself tapping at her watch and staring down the now mysteriously empty tunnel, wondering if there hasn't been a derailment or accident somewhere along the line. When a train does finally pull in, it is filled with misfits and crazy men–like a New York City subway car after hours. . . The sensible, decent, not-bad-looking men a woman rejected at twenty-four because she wasn't ready to settle down all seem to have gotten off at other stations.

So, in other words, don't be so picky, missy--all you have to offer is your youth and the ability to breed. Once that starts to fade, no one worth having will give you a second look and you can look forward to spending your golden years in a tiny apartment with 40 cats, reviewing all the guys you let get away while you thought your career was important.

The phrasing throughout the article is negative: "confident twenty-five-year-old single career women" become "white-wine-drinking thirty-five-year-old executives huddled around restaurant tables, frantically analyzing every quality about themselves that might be contributing to their stubbornly unsuccessful romantic lives. " Puh-leeze.

And the capper: The more time that passes, the more the gearshift rattles, the more preoccupied the woman becomes with herself and all her possible shortcomings in the eyes of men until she can think about little else. Is she freakin' serious!?!

How much better is the message that we should all find things we like to do and learn to do them well. Get a strong sense of self esteem by succeeding at something. You will meet other people with the same interests doing those activities and they will be drawn to your confidence. If it happens that none of those people is a potential spouse, at least you know you can do just fine without one. Appearing desperate and needy is not an attractive feature.

pix

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23508 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:16 AM
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I didn't get that same impression from the article. I thought it was simply going over (granted, much traveled ground) the fact that some women that actually want to get married put it off because they are busy building their career. I didn't notice the attitude in it. Oh well!


I totally agree.

While I was offended at the assumption she made that all women wanted children "some day," I think she IS correct that most women want to have someone to love, a permanent commitment, for the rest of their lives.

I am 33 and have been married for 10 years. My girlfriends who are single are all complaining that the men their age are either immature, already married, single with children, or complete jerks.

I'm glad that I found someone special and grabbed him while I was still young. And I shudder to think what position I'd be in, relationship-wise, if I had put it off in favor of "building my career" and "discovering myself." I think THAT was what the article was saying.

Frydaze1
Who built her career after her marriage, and therefore has both.

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Author: ChocoKitty Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23509 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:23 AM
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The phrasing throughout the article is negative: "confident twenty-five-year-old single career women" become "white-wine-drinking thirty-five-year-old executives huddled around restaurant tables, frantically analyzing every quality about themselves that might be contributing to their stubbornly unsuccessful romantic lives. " Puh-leeze.

I laughed out loud when I read that phrase. Who has time to dwell so much on "unsuccessful romantic lives" anyway?

I'm 34, and rather than trying to figure out how best to get married (which I have no interest in anyway), I'm trying to figure out how to juggle being a law firm partner with writing a cookbook with a famous chef with fun knitting projects and my new foray into making blankets for homeless animals. Oh, and I still want to learn how to have faaaabulous parties for friends, both single and married alike (everyone needs some "grown-up time"), so I'm still working on my cooking skills. And that's just a few of the things I want to do in this lifetime.

A friend of mine from law school, who is also single, called two weeks ago telling me she made it to round four of screen tests for a new reality show dealing with weight loss. This is the same friend who spent her first two years out of school teaching law classes in Russia and Poland. How cool is that?

We all make choices, we all make trade-offs. Regret is such a time-wasting emotion. Funny how the author glosses over the trade-offs of getting married. Seeing my Mom now, doing what SHE wants to do, and sensing her frustration at not being able to do it earlier, makes me a little sad. But again, no regrets -- she's grabbing life NOW.

Funny how the author also makes aging sound like such an awful thing. WTF? It's gonna happen whether you fear it or not, so you might as well act from strength rather than fear. Getting married because you're afraid of being lonely or pathetic looking is NOT acting from strength.

OK, enough rambling. I need my coffee.

CK

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23510 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:51 AM
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Funny how the author glosses over the trade-offs of getting married.

You said it! I think of my sister, who thought she'd be a failure if not married by the age of 21, so she married the first jerk she could drag to the alter. After two disastrous marriages and decades of single motherhood (and raising a grandchild alone) she is finally finding a career that she enjoys now that she's in her mid-50s. Too bad her blood pressure is so high after years of repressed rage that she probably won't live long enough to enjoy it.

pix

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Author: ChocoKitty Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23511 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 10:15 AM
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By the way, is Danielle Crittenden any relation to Anne Crittenden (who wrote a book about how mothers should be paid for the services they provide, IIRC)?

CK

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23512 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 10:20 AM
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By the way, is Danielle Crittenden any relation to Anne Crittenden (who wrote a book about how mothers should be paid for the services they provide, IIRC)?

No; but they sure could be.


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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23513 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 10:26 AM
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is Danielle Crittenden any relation to Anne Crittenden

Could be. They resemble each other and both live in the Washington, DC area. (Of course, if that's their married names, maybe not.) Why am I not surprised that Danielle "marry early and propagate" Crittenden is married to a former speech writer for Bush?

pix

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Author: electrasmom Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23514 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 10:56 AM
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<I'm lucky that I did find a man to spend my life with. But if anything should happen to him, I doubt that I'm going to go hunting up a new hubby just so I'm not alone. I've always felt it takes a mighty good man to be better than no man at all and I know I'll feel a lot better alone than I would be stuck with any old guy just to have a husband.>

I recced you just for this. I feel the exact same way. Especially when I hear about other's husbands. I definitely hit the jackpot and doubt I could do it again!!

electrasmom

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Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23515 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:17 AM
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Who built her career after her marriage, and therefore has both.

I am a mother, so please pardon my trolling. :-)

I saw this thread on the Best Of and found the OP to be full of distortions and half-truths. The author paints Gen X women with an incredibly broad brush, and I suspect she only interviewed a narrow sampling of women in her "research." To begin with, over half of all women are already married by age 25, so her BIG problem is not even an issue for the majority of the population.

She also links delayed marriage and delayed parenthood as if the two were inseparably linked--but guess what, they're not! I got married at age 20 but didn't have a kid until age 26. She also presents child rearing and career as irreconcilable--but guess what, they're not! There are many ways to earn income while still being heavily involved in your children's lives. Worst of all, she assumes that all women, by their very nature, secretly long for a husband and children. Guess what, some DON'T!! It would have been nice if she'd at least acknowledged the fact that some people are happy, yes HAPPY, with the life they've chosen, yes CHOSEN! Maybe that was in another chaper. ;-)

Andrea
--mom with an attutude

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23516 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:29 AM
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Her apartment feels too quiet, her work, no matter how exciting or interesting, is less absorbing, and her spare time, unless packed with frenetic activities, almost echoes with loneliness: Think of an endless wintry Sunday afternoon unbroken by the sound of another voice.

What the bleeping bleep is she talking about? My work is an endless frantic nightmare, my apartment a messy cave, and my spare time neither packed nor lonely. I can't even read past this paragraph. What a loser.

And for the record, I NEVER had all night chats with my girlfriends about how we were determined not to marry until 30 no matter what. How retarded is that? Just because she's friends with a bunch of shallow c-words doesn't mean the rest of live in the same tiny little world.

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23517 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:31 AM
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There's a lot to it that nobody lets us in on when we are growing up.


That's just SO lame. I mean, really. If you're lonely, then go get married, and stop blaming whoever you think told you that you were guaranteed happiness if you stayed single.

6

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23518 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:36 AM
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Think of an endless wintry Sunday afternoon unbroken by the sound of another voice.

Add a cup of tea and a good book and it sounds like heaven to me.

pix

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Author: Azreela Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23519 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:41 AM
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Her apartment feels too quiet, her work, no matter how exciting or interesting, is less absorbing, and her spare time, unless packed with frenetic activities, almost echoes with loneliness: Think of an endless wintry Sunday afternoon unbroken by the sound of another voice.

Hell, I'll take any afternoon unbroken by the sound of another voice. Sounds like my idea of heaven.

People that think like this have never figured out the difference between being alone and being lonely. They are two separate states with little to do with each other.

Azreela
Excentric recluse in training<i/>


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Author: Joelsenior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23520 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:42 AM
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I guess I'll have to go to Africa with my friend, instead of Six Flags
MCT ==============================================================


Why would anyone want to go to Africa over Six Flags
Joelsenior, immature

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23521 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:43 AM
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Think of an endless wintry Sunday afternoon unbroken by the sound of another voice.
----------------------------------------
Add a cup of tea and a good book and it sounds like heaven to me.


My thought exactly.
I'll go whole weekends without speaking or listening.
=========================================================

I am truly amazed that the one poster didn't pick up the the whole nasty, condescending attitude of the article.


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Author: ChocoKitty Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23522 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:48 AM
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Language... has created the word "loneliness" to express the pain of being alone. And it has created the word "solitude" to express the glory of being alone. ~Paul Johannes Tillich

The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline towards the religion of solitude.
~ Aldous Huxley

CK

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Author: TweeKitten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23523 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:52 AM
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I've learned a lot about what not to do with my life from watching my mother. Specifically, I learned NOT to get married, give up my exciting career, have children I'm not emotionally equipped to deal with, and spend 30 years staring into a bottle wondering where my life went.


Twee

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Author: ChocoKitty Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23524 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:57 AM
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I was just wondering....does this author get real-life single women confused with the Sex and the City characters or something? None of my single friends resemble anything like the stereotypes she describes.

Also, why does she equate being married with being dependent? I found the article a bit insulting to BOTH single and married women.

CK

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Author: Joelsenior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23525 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:57 AM
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The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline towards the religion of solitude.
~ Aldous Huxley

CK
=================================================================

I concur! because as Joelsenior says;
"Most people are idiots"

Joelsenior, speaking in the 3rd person

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23526 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:12 PM
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I've learned a lot about what not to do with my life from watching my mother. Specifically, I learned NOT to get married, give up my exciting career, have children I'm not emotionally equipped to deal with, and spend 30 years staring into a bottle wondering where my life went.


Weird how you're not blaming her for not telling you the truth about how lonely the alternative is. Huh.

6

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Author: TweeKitten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23527 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:18 PM
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Weird how you're not blaming her for not telling you the truth about how lonely the alternative is. Huh.

My mom always wanted me to go to Oxford or win a Pulitzer, not get a husband. My parents don't care if I ever marry and they don't care that I'm not having kids. They are outstanding in that way.

I remember, back in the day, I was getting ready to go out to some nightclub or something and she looked at me and said "You know, most people lead lives of quiet desperation. You don't."

Her support when it became clear that I was destined for a non-traditional lifestyle made up for a lot of the crap from my childhood.

Twee


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Author: Joelsenior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23528 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:30 PM
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I've a mind to write an article about all those soccer moms who think they're living the good life, but who are going to be yearning for all those lost opportunities they had to pass up as they sit around watching Pugsley with his play dates. Something like "thirty-something mothers, sitting around the middle school playing fields, desperately trying to reclaim the energy and enthusiasm they had during their single years, as they sip white wine coolers from their trendy thermos flasks. They are only just beginning to realize that the condos and SUVs and all the other trappings of an apparently successful suburban wife are just hollow shells that are no substitute for the sense of accomplishment they had before they were forced to live their lives through someone else."

pix (from the forbidden, to me anyway, board)
===================================================================


Please don't.

All of us suburban dads will suffer when they start trying to
convince themselves how wrong you are.

Joelsenior, suburban dad


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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23529 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:38 PM
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Um, OK, so where are these highly passionate marriages from the people who got married in their 20's, because most of the women I know who got married in their 20's and have been married over 5 years tell me that marriage isn't all that great and that I should enjoy being single while I can.

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23530 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:47 PM
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Um, OK, so where are these highly passionate marriages from the people who got married in their 20's, because most of the women I know who got married in their 20's and have been married over 5 years tell me that marriage isn't all that great and that I should enjoy being single while I can.

I don't think anyone should get married who doesn't want to/hasn't found the right person/whatever.

where are these highly passionate marriages from the people who got married in their 20's
HERE I AM!!!
33 years old. Married 10 years. Together 16 years. Passionate marriage. Very happy. Great career. No kids.

I enjoy my time alone. DH and I spend time together AND time separately, and I do love having a day or 3 with just the cats and a book. But then, I really enjoy having a partner. And I'm glad I found a good one. It works well for me.

I should enjoy being single while I can.
If you enjoy being single, then by all means, enjoy it! Just as people who enjoy kids should have them, etc.


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Author: Joelsenior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23531 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:54 PM
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33 years old. Married 10 years. Together 16 years. Passionate marriage. Very happy. Great career. No kids

Frydaze1 ==========================================================


I'm pretty sure the having kids business is the problem.
All the married cats I know are in 2 groups

A. Passionate marriage. Very happy. Great career. No kids
B. Some or none of those. Kids

Joelsenior

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Author: HuffyLilPoon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23532 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 12:58 PM
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It seems nobody gives yong women all the gory details that come with it. Yes, it's wonderful having your independence, but it's also lonesome. It's great being able to travel all over, but that also means you don't put down roots. There's a lot to it that nobody lets us in on when we are growing up.

Do you really think that people are rushing out to give young women the gory details of how bad it is to be married to the wrong person? Of course not, they're too busy trying to convince us that being married is the only way to be. You only get bits and pieces of that picture.

Like:
-The ex-BF who mournfully recounts how Sundays seem to drag endlessly because he knows he's married the wrong person.
-The friend who's engaged, but still asking The One Who Got Away why they can't work things out.
-The friend who asks if you want to be married one day, who bleakly asks "Why?" when you say yes.
-The countless extramarital affairs, and the emotional fallout from those.
-The way my parents snark at each other over every little thing because they don't have the guts to say outright that they're unhappy.
-The quiet desperation they must feel knowing they're stuck with the other person for the rest of their life because they can't fathom starting over agin in their 60s.
-The quiet desperation I once felt thinking that I couldn't bear to leave the guy with life goals diametrically opposed to mine.
Etc. etc etc.

Being single in one's thirties is no picnic, but I'd take it any day over settling down with someone I didn't absolutely adore and shortchanging us both in the process. And frankly with the amount of divorces and broken homes happening these days, I should think that we'd be applauded for not rushing out to replicate those "marry/procreate/divorce/repeat" mistakes. Instead, we're treated to this mindless treatise about how we should all just marry the next guy who looks at us sideways because God forbid we should become "old maids." A pox on the house of anyone who tries to peddle this neoconservative claptrap in the year 2004. My feminist foremothers fought tooth and nail to give me better options than that.

HLP

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Author: WasPokey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23533 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:03 PM
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Being single in one's thirties is no picnic, but I'd take it any day over settling down with someone I didn't absolutely adore and shortchanging us both in the process. And frankly with the amount of divorces and broken homes happening these days, I should think that we'd be applauded for not rushing out to replicate those "marry/procreate/divorce/repeat" mistakes. Instead, we're treated to this mindless treatise about how we should all just marry the next guy who looks at us sideways because God forbid we should become "old maids." A pox on the house of anyone who tries to peddle this neoconservative claptrap in the year 2004. My feminist foremothers fought tooth and nail to give me better options than that.


Now I want to marry you.

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23534 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:05 PM
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I am 33 and have been married for 10 years. My girlfriends who are single are all complaining that the men their age are either immature, already married, single with children, or complete jerks.

I'm glad that I found someone special and grabbed him while I was still young. And I shudder to think what position I'd be in, relationship-wise, if I had put it off in favor of "building my career" and "discovering myself." I think THAT was what the article was saying.


Well for some of us 30-something women when some of us were 23, the guys we were still meeting at that time were still already in relationships, immature, or complete jerks. Not all of us are lucky enough to meet the person we want to spend the rest of our lives with, and who also wants to spend their rest of their life with us, at 23.

Just because a woman's in her 30's, has a career, and is single doesn't mean she chose one over the other. But when you're 22 and single, should you just sit at home in your parents house until Mr. Right comes along, or should you create a life for yourself.

And I think it's pretty sad that in 2004, some women shudder to think what position I'd be in, relationship-wise, if I had put it off in favor of "building my career" and "discovering myself." Men think they're better "catches" if they know who they are and have built somekind of life for themselves so they have more to offer to potential mates. It's sad that some people still think a woman's worth is youth and ignorance about herself.

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23535 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:05 PM
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Um, OK, so where are these highly passionate marriages from the people who got married in their 20's, because most of the women I know who got married in their 20's and have been married over 5 years tell me that marriage isn't all that great and that I should enjoy being single while I can.

I'm going to assume that "highly passionate" doesn't necessarily limit itself to the concept of pure sex and instead means that in addition to the wonderful physical intimacy that they have a deep partnership with their spouse (since we are talking about marriage, I'll say that instead of "significant other.")

I got married at 24, I'd been with him since I was 20. I got quite a bit of that "Why are you getting married so YOUNG?? Why not wait???" from a lot of people and it annoyed the heck out of me. I'd found the guy I wanted and I knew very well what that meant. What was "waiting" going to accomplish? We did "wait" to have children, because we had things we wanted to do and see first. But putting off getting married because someone decided there was some arbitrary rule about "too young"? Did they want me to break up with him "just in case"???

I have never, ever regretted my choice. Every day I am grateful for who he is, how he treats me, the life we have together, and every other joy he brings to my life.

Is he perfect? No. But neither am I - and he is perfect FOR ME.

I'm thrilled to be married to my DH (can't say how thrilled I'd be married to someone else). For me, marriage IS all that great.

Do I occasionally watch those "Hollywood first kisses" with a small frisson of jealousy, for all the newness, the discovery, the "high" that comes with the first blush of a relationship? Sure. But it's not because I want to be kissing "that guy", it's more of a nostalgia that you get for a lot of things that you really enjoyed but can't necessarily revisit, like the high school prom (assuming you went and actually DID enjoy it. It's an example.).

Enjoy being single - absolutely. Enjoy WHATEVER you're doing when you're doing it, hopefully. And the whole "while you can" part is silly - you CAN be single until you die, if you want to be, it's your choice.

But marriage can be really, really great.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23536 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:06 PM
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Well for some of us 30-something women when some of us were 23, the guys we were still meeting at that time were still already in relationships, immature, or complete jerks. Not all of us are lucky enough to meet the person we want to spend the rest of our lives with, and who also wants to spend their rest of their life with us, at 23.

Thank you. I was 32 when I met the first really decent man I've ever dated, and I've been around a bit.

6

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Author: morgaine1 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23537 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:08 PM
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Being single in one's thirties is no picnic, but I'd take it any day over settling down with someone I didn't absolutely adore and shortchanging us both in the process. And frankly with the amount of divorces and broken homes happening these days, I should think that we'd be applauded for not rushing out to replicate those "marry/procreate/divorce/repeat" mistakes. Instead, we're treated to this mindless treatise about how we should all just marry the next guy who looks at us sideways because God forbid we should become "old maids." A pox on the house of anyone who tries to peddle this neoconservative claptrap in the year 2004. My feminist foremothers fought tooth and nail to give me better options than that.

<wild applause>

What she said.

cathy
recently divorced, no kids, will never marry again


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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23538 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:15 PM
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Her apartment feels too quiet, her work, no matter how exciting or interesting, is less absorbing, and her spare time, unless packed with frenetic activities, almost echoes with loneliness: Think of an endless wintry Sunday afternoon unbroken by the sound of another voice.

If marriage and parenthood were so great, and singlehood so awful, my closest friend wouldn't have stopped talking to me when I told her I couldn't watch her child for the evening so she could run up to New York City to party with a 20 year-old.

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Author: HuffyLilPoon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23539 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:16 PM
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I am 33 and have been married for 10 years. My girlfriends who are single are all complaining that the men their age are either immature, already married, single with children, or complete jerks.

Substitute "have a girlfriend, or are gay" for married and single w/kids, and you could say that sentence about the dating scene in the 20s, too. Good for you for finding someone, but there's no magic window in which ideal mates appear. Nor do all available men fit so neatly into the little boxes people seem to want to assign them to.

I'm glad that I found someone special and grabbed him while I was still young. And I shudder to think what position I'd be in, relationship-wise, if I had put it off in favor of "building my career" and "discovering myself." I think THAT was what the article was saying.

Interesting how the married people all think this article more benign than those of us to whom it was directed. The article was essentially saying that marriage (and don't forget the children!) above all things is important. Forget your career, friends, aspirations, education, travel, interests, life of your own-if you don't have a hubby, ANY hubby, even a complete troll will do-then you're nothing. If you don't have kids, you're less than nothing. You're a shriveled up, undesirable old hag swilling your Pinot Grigio and waiting to die. Where of course, you'll be unmourned, because YOU HAVE NO HUSBAND OR CHILDREN. What a sad and myopic existence the author must live. Thank God I don't live in that world.

HLP

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Author: dlkeiley Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23540 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:18 PM
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Being single in one's thirties is no picnic, but I'd take it any day over settling down with someone I didn't absolutely adore and shortchanging us both in the process. And frankly with the amount of divorces and broken homes happening these days, I should think that we'd be applauded for not rushing out to replicate those "marry/procreate/divorce/repeat" mistakes. Instead, we're treated to this mindless treatise about how we should all just marry the next guy who looks at us sideways because God forbid we should become "old maids." A pox on the house of anyone who tries to peddle this neoconservative claptrap in the year 2004. My feminist foremothers fought tooth and nail to give me better options than that.


Now I want to marry you.



Cheating beeatch.


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Author: WasPokey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23541 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:20 PM
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Cheating beeatch.

Oh stop. I would never ruin our relationship with marriage.

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Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23542 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:22 PM
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Interesting how the married people all think this article more benign than those of us to whom it was directed.

I'm married and think it sux. Nothing is worse than getting married for the wrong reasons--except maybe having a baby for the wrong reasons.

Andrea

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23543 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:23 PM
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HERE I AM!!!
33 years old. Married 10 years. Together 16 years. Passionate marriage. Very happy. Great career. No kids.


Congrats to you and your husband. But the no kids part I'm not surprised by, the few (actually only 2) couples I've known married >5 years and truely in love were ones that didn't have children. Maybe they were so happy because they had more time to spend on each other.

Just as people who enjoy kids should have them, etc

That's true, but should you settle on a spouse just to have children? I think that's the question for some 30 something women when they start becoming afraid Mr. Right wont arrive in time for them to still have children together.

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23544 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:26 PM
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Interesting how the married people all think this article more benign than those of us to whom it was directed.

For the record, I'm married with children and think it's a stupid, asinine article. However, I will not be surprised if it re-appears linked in an LBYM post.

rad

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23545 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:29 PM
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but I'd take it any day over settling down with someone I didn't absolutely adore and shortchanging us both in the process

Ever notice how we always imagine we're the ones settling, and not that someone else is settling to be with us?

I mean, if someone proposed to you with "I'm not crazy in love with you, but I'm afraid to be alone, plus I really want to have kids before I get too old, so I figure settling for you is the best way to accomplish this, so lets get married" Would you really want to say "Yes" to that proposal???

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23546 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:29 PM
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Her apartment feels too quiet, her work, no matter how exciting or interesting, is less absorbing, and her spare time, unless packed with frenetic activities, almost echoes with loneliness: Think of an endless wintry Sunday afternoon unbroken by the sound of another voice.

Lying on the couch in front of a blazing fire, thucydides and my labrador retriever my companions, watching the snowflakes cover the trees outside my window. hard to beat, isnt it?

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23547 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:38 PM
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33 years old. Married 10 years. Together 16 years. Passionate marriage. Very happy. Great career. No kids.

Wait a few months, I'm sure there'll be a new article telling married, childless 30-something women they better hurry and have kids before it's too late, or else once their husband's reach 40, they'll change their mind and decide they really do want children, and therefore trade-in their post-menapausal wives for a "newer model" who can procreate.

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Author: PanemetCircenses Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23548 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:42 PM
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Wait a few months, I'm sure there'll be a new article telling married, childless 30-something women they better hurry and have kids before it's too late, or else once their husband's reach 40, they'll change their mind and decide they really do want children, and therefore trade-in their post-menapausal wives for a "newer model" who can procreate.

And that article will be just as pointless and idiotic as this one was.

--B+C, only together 10 years but everything is still going strong...

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Author: WasPokey Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23549 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:51 PM
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I'm married and think it sux. Nothing is worse than getting married for the wrong reasons--except maybe having a baby for the wrong reasons.


Not to be nosy, but why stay married if it sucks so bad?

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Author: Joelsenior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23550 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:52 PM
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I mean, if someone proposed to you with "I'm not crazy in love with you, but I'm afraid to be alone, plus I really want to have kids before I get too old, so I figure settling for you is the best way to accomplish this, so lets get married" Would you really want to say "Yes" to that proposal???

MaestroCindi ==============================================


It worked for me
Joelsenior

ps I only thought everything after "crazy in love with you"

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23551 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:56 PM
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I mean, if someone proposed to you with "I'm not crazy in love with you, but I'm afraid to be alone, plus I really want to have kids before I get too old, so I figure settling for you is the best way to accomplish this, so lets get married" Would you really want to say "Yes" to that proposal???

I once had a guy propose and then say he was tired of cooking and cleaning up after himself. At least he didn't say he wanted a dozen kids.

pix

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23552 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 1:57 PM
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Not to be nosy, but why stay married if it sucks so bad?

<whisper> I think she meant that the article sucked. I hope so, anyway.

pix

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23553 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 2:03 PM
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Wait a few months, I'm sure there'll be a new article telling married, childless 30-something women they better hurry and have kids before it's too late, or else once their husband's reach 40, they'll change their mind and decide they really do want children, and therefore trade-in their post-menapausal wives for a "newer model" who can procreate.


Actually:
1) I've been told by people here (not on THIS board) that I'd better hurry and have kids. My response: Pthththth
2) DH will be 41 in a couple of weeks. I think we're safe


Yes, there will always be people to tell me I've chosen poorly. But I'm happy, so screw 'em.

:-)

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23554 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 2:08 PM
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And I think it's pretty sad that in 2004, some women shudder to think what position I'd be in, relationship-wise, if I had put it off in favor of "building my career" and "discovering myself." Men think they're better "catches" if they know who they are and have built somekind of life for themselves so they have more to offer to potential mates. It's sad that some people still think a woman's worth is youth and ignorance about herself.

I think you misunderstood me. I said the above quotes in the context of my friends who are 30 something, single, and can't find men they respect. If I had passed on a good man so that I could build my career (as the article was indicating that women do) then I might be scrambling to find another person that I loved as much as DH. Instead I have both.

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Author: andryia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23555 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 2:09 PM
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Not to be nosy, but why stay married if it sucks so bad?

<whisper> I think she meant that the article sucked. I hope so, anyway.

ROFL!!

Yep, although it was much funnier the way WasPokey read it. I'm generally happy with my marriage--DH and I are both passionate, stubborn and opinionated, but we also both learned to say "I'm sorry" early and often. Like other posters here, I've often been told I got the last good one. There are few things more fun than getting into a hot political, cultural, or religious argument, then making up afterwards. ;-)

Andrea



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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23556 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 2:10 PM
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That's true, but should you settle on a spouse just to have children? I think that's the question for some 30 something women when they start becoming afraid Mr. Right wont arrive in time for them to still have children together.


And I can understand and sympathize with that concern. What if I DID want kids and DIDN'T have a partner yet? It is a scary thought. If being a mommy was a lifetime dream of mine, that might cause me to compromise on the partner more than I should.

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23558 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 2:13 PM
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I once had a guy propose and then say he was tired of cooking and cleaning up after himself. At least he didn't say he wanted a dozen kids.

pix


Good grief - and I always told DH I'm not his cook or maid.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23559 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 2:38 PM
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Being single in one's thirties is no picnic, but I'd take it any day over settling down with someone I didn't absolutely adore and shortchanging us both in the process. And frankly with the amount of divorces and broken homes happening these days, I should think that we'd be applauded for not rushing out to replicate those "marry/procreate/divorce/repeat" mistakes. Instead, we're treated to this mindless treatise about how we should all just marry the next guy who looks at us sideways because God forbid we should become "old maids." A pox on the house of anyone who tries to peddle this neoconservative claptrap in the year 2004. My feminist foremothers fought tooth and nail to give me better options than that.

I agree. That was whatI got from the article, too. Basically, the "d*mned if you do, d*mned if you don't" of it.
I am extremely glad I waited until much later to marry. I was able to do a lot of things I would not have been able to do once I was married (husbands seem to frown upon their wife taking off for a week or so to the Cayman's without them). By the same token, I kissed a lot of frogs to meet my prince.

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Author: TMFJeanie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23561 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 3:31 PM
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I was able to do a lot of things I would not have been able to do once I was married (husbands seem to frown upon their wife taking off for a week or so to the Cayman's without them).

The trick is finding one who doesn't frown on it :-)

Oh, he might pout for a minute, but he's also practical enough to realize that spending an entire week sunbathing and reading trashy novels on a Carribean beach is not his idea of a good time. My friends and I can't be the only married women who have husbands willing to indulge these occasional women-only getaways.

How is this different from all those sales meetings he's attended over the years that are always held at posh golf resorts? You know the kind: the opening night dinner with speeches, one day of meetings and two days of <yawn> golf? My idea of hell.

Happy long-term marriages also include recognition of the need for separate activities that round out one's life. Not every leisure interest or growth experience needs to be shared as a couple.

Jeanie

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Author: synchronicity Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23567 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 4:08 PM
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<<I was able to do a lot of things I would not have been able to do once I was married (husbands seem to frown upon their wife taking off for a week or so to the Cayman's without them). >>

The trick is finding one who doesn't frown on it :-)


Syncspouse once took two weeks to go see her cousin in Australia. I had to stay here 'cause it was "busy season" at work. She had a great time, and I was glad she did.

Flip side: I once took a long weekend (3 day holiday weekend, took an additional day off before and after to make it a 5 day trip) to visit an old college friend in London. Syncspouse stayed home working on a project, I got to spend time together with my friend for the first time in ages.

Since when does "being married" mean "joined at the hip" (no bad jokes, please)?

And yeah, we'll be having a kid this September. FWIW, syncspouse is in her forties. For the longest time we hadn't made up our minds about trying to have a child. Finally we decided to, and things have gone well so far. But if it hadn't happened, our lives would have gone on just fine.

Oh, and when syncpouse met me she was in her mid-30's, we married when she was over 40. Now granted, one could argue that if she decided to marry me she must have been desperate, but no, she apparently likes everything about me (so no, it wasn't desperation, it must have been mental illness).

People should get married when they've met when someone that they want to marry, not to satisfy other people's preconceived notions about what one should do. They should have children if they want to have children and are prepared (as much as one can be) to shoulder the responsibilities of being a parent, not to make their parents or relatives or neighbors or local magazine article writers happy. People should know themselves well enough to know what will make them happy and fulfilled with their lives. If marriage and/or children are part of that, great. If not, great.

But fer cryin' out loud, people like the bozo who wrote the article referenced at the start of this thread seem completely unable to reconcile the fact that other people make different decisions than they do, but darn it, they still appear happy! How can this be? You can just hear the thought process: "Well, they may be happy now, but eventually they'll regret it! Ha ha! And then I can sing the 'toldjaso' song and do the little dance that goes with it! Whew, for a second I almost lost my superior and condescending atttitude by having my narrow version of reality threatened."

There's a whole world of people out there, and guess what, they're all different. And no, most of them are not stereotypical characters out of (as was mentioned earlier) Sex and the City.

-synchronicity

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Author: overspent Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23568 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 4:14 PM
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My friends and I can't be the only married women who have husbands willing to indulge these occasional women-only getaways.

I'm one of them, too. :) For the past two years, I've gone by myself to Tokyo for a couple weeks in the spring to visit friends. DH doesn't love Japan like I do, and was fine with me going solo. Not that he didn't miss me, but he knows how much I look forward to those trips and how important they are to me.

Happy long-term marriages also include recognition of the need for separate activities that round out one's life. Not every leisure interest or growth experience needs to be shared as a couple.

Thank goodness -- if DH insisted on dragging me on his five-day White Mountains hiking excursions, I think the trip would end in divorce. I love to hike, but prefer a nice hot shower and soft bed at the end of my day on the trail. Low-impact backpack-camping at high elevations is my idea of hell. :P

On the flip side, I know better than to try to drag DH up to NYC for a weekend more than twice a year -- his left eye starts to twitch after about 36 hours in the city. I do have some mercy in me. ^_~


overspent

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23571 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 5:03 PM
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I was able to do a lot of things I would not have been able to do once I was married (husbands seem to frown upon their wife taking off for a week or so to the Cayman's without them).
===========================================
The trick is finding one who doesn't frown on it :-)

Oh, he might pout for a minute, but he's also practical enough to realize that spending an entire week sunbathing and reading trashy novels on a Carribean beach is not his idea of a good time. My friends and I can't be the only married women who have husbands willing to indulge these occasional women-only getaways.


I think she meant running off with a man.

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Author: WeeBeastie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23573 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 5:16 PM
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Um, OK, so where are these highly passionate marriages from the people who got married in their 20's, because most of the women I know who got married in their 20's and have been married over 5 years tell me that marriage isn't all that great and that I should enjoy being single while I can.

<shrug> I got married at 23 and here we are 11 years later. I'll take being in my marriage over being single any day. My marriage is the most precious thing to me, because I realize how absolutely lucky I am to have a happy marriage. Now, more than ever, I would be absolutely devastated if I lost my spouse.


InLoveBeastie


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Author: WeeBeastie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23574 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 5:31 PM
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Um, OK, so where are these highly passionate marriages from the people who got married in their 20's, because most of the women I know who got married in their 20's and have been married over 5 years tell me that marriage isn't all that great and that I should enjoy being single while I can.

I should have added more info I think as I spotted the passionate part again. I'll be honest, the days of shagging 7 times a session are long gone, so maybe you wouldn't think of my marriage as "passionate" compared to what it was. But that's reality. Perhaps I went into marriage with more realistic expectations of what romantic love is like long term, I don't know.

For your friends, say they got married when they were 22 so they're maybe 27 or 28 now. I don't remember thinking that being single was better than being married when I was that age, but I will say now at the grand old age of 34, that I am incredibly glad I got married when I did. What exactly is it that your friends are missing out on? Anything I wanted to do when I was single, I can still do now. Dating pretty much sucks and that's about the only thing I can't do - no loss!

When I got married so many people said I should wait. I would reply "Why? I'm going to marry him whether I'm 23 or 28, so what difference does it make."

IMO, the most important thing is not whether you're married or single, it's about how happy you are being where you are. I have a friend that goes on and on and on about how lucky I am to be married, so for her the dating scene sucks big time. I also see people in incredibly unhappy marriages, for them marriage sucks big time.

If you like being single, enjoy it. But whether it's better to be single than married depends on you and your spouse.


MarriedBeastie.


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Author: WeeBeastie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23575 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 5:47 PM
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Forget your career, friends, aspirations, education, travel, interests, life of your own-if you don't have a hubby, ANY hubby, even a complete troll will do-then you're nothing.

You know I really don't get it. Why DO people give up the above (not the troll-husband!)? What does marriage have to do with giving up your career, friends, dreams, eduction etc etc etc. I see this all the time IRL. But why? Do people think that marriage means you give up being an individual?

I would never in a million years have gotten married in those circumstances, especially if I had to give up my career (I'm a bit more jaded on that front now!).

Often when I go out to one of my friend's party I always hear "Where's DHBeastie?". Often I shrug. I dunno. It seems that people think unless you do everything together, you're not properly married or something. These are probably the very people lamenting the departure of their single days.

Suckers.


IndependentBeastie.

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Author: WeeBeastie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23576 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 5:53 PM
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That's true, but should you settle on a spouse just to have children? I think that's the question for some 30 something women when they start becoming afraid Mr. Right wont arrive in time for them to still have children together

If there's one thing worse than being stuck in a bad marriage, it's being stuck in a bad marriage with children.


ScareyBeastie




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Author: WeeBeastie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23579 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 6:04 PM
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My friends and I can't be the only married women who have husbands willing to indulge these occasional women-only getaways.

Snap! A few years into my marriage a group of 10 of us went for a week to Gran Canaria. What a blast I had!

Happy long-term marriages also include recognition of the need for separate activities that round out one's life. Not every leisure interest or growth experience needs to be shared as a couple.

I think DH and I are probably even more extreme in this than most. We even lived in seperate countries for a couple of years as we were both at critical points in our careers. We took a LOT of criticism for that one - "how can you call that a marriage?" I didn't think it was odd though - we were married to commit for life, not to share mundane chores like the grocery shopping.


ThickSkinnedBeastie

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Author: snie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23581 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 6:15 PM
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If there's one thing worse than being stuck in a bad marriage, it's being stuck in a bad marriage with children.

Or staying in a bad marriage "for the sake of the kids".

My parents divorced when I was 14, as far as I can see, they were married for about 15 years too long. I was the product of "maybe another kid will make things better".

Snie

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23587 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 7:27 PM
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Oh, he might pout for a minute, but he's also practical enough to realize that spending an entire week sunbathing and reading trashy novels on a Carribean beach is not his idea of a good time. My friends and I can't be the only married women who have husbands willing to indulge these occasional women-only getaways.

Mine either - but it sounds more along the lines of stuff my Hubby would do. I prefer to be scuba diving or parasailing.

Happy long-term marriages also include recognition of the need for separate activities that round out one's life. Not every leisure interest or growth experience needs to be shared as a couple.

Yep, and he didn't want to take up diving and be my dive buddy, so I'm grooming our daughter. See! Kids are good for something!

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23588 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 7:44 PM
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Sounds like spouses who don't have kids are more respectful of "alone time" than spouses who do.

Most of my married friend now have kids. With my ex-close friend (the one who stopped talking to me over babysitting), anytime she'd come to visit just over night, her husband would call about 100 times, literally calling my place before she even arrived.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23589 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:27 PM
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How could you miss it? It starts of with the tale of a young woman whose every friend views her impending wedding as a betrayal. Message: singles are like crabs in the fish market, pulling back down into the basket any who try to escape.

In many cases the "every friend views her impending wedding as a betrayal" is true. At one point when I was single, I finally got sick and tired of hearing people say, "You've never been married?? Why not?" with the unsaid comment of "What's wrong with you?", and started telling people I was divorced. It was easier than dealing with the BS.
I know for a fact I was not the only person to get this, and it was applicable to men and women I knew. You think people get an attitude about being childfree, they REALLY get it when you have taken a few strides down the aisle. What's wrong with our country when it's better to have gotten married just for the he77 of it, than to actually wait for someone you might want to spend your life with?

How much better is the message that we should all find things we like to do and learn to do them well. Get a strong sense of self esteem by succeeding at something. You will meet other people with the same interests doing those activities and they will be drawn to your confidence. If it happens that none of those people is a potential spouse, at least you know you can do just fine without one. Appearing desperate and needy is not an attractive feature.

I agree whole-heartedly, but the attitude is there. I've been on the receivingend.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23590 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:35 PM
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That's just SO lame. I mean, really. If you're lonely, then go get married, and stop blaming whoever you think told you that you were guaranteed happiness if you stayed single.

Um, I am married - and quite happily, I might add. And I was quite happily single when I was single.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23591 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:37 PM
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I am truly amazed that the one poster didn't pick up the the whole nasty, condescending attitude of the article.

I apologize, but it seemed more like it was "telling the other side" rather than knocking them down.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23592 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:43 PM
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Well for some of us 30-something women when some of us were 23, the guys we were still meeting at that time were still already in relationships, immature, or complete jerks. Not all of us are lucky enough to meet the person we want to spend the rest of our lives with, and who also wants to spend their rest of their life with us, at 23.

Just because a woman's in her 30's, has a career, and is single doesn't mean she chose one over the other. But when you're 22 and single, should you just sit at home in your parents house until Mr. Right comes along, or should you create a life for yourself.

And I think it's pretty sad that in 2004, some women shudder to think what position I'd be in, relationship-wise, if I had put it off in favor of "building my career" and "discovering myself." Men think they're better "catches" if they know who they are and have built somekind of life for themselves so they have more to offer to potential mates. It's sad that some people still think a woman's worth is youth and ignorance about herself.


That's basically what I was trying to get out, but apparently offended the entire effen board instead.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23593 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:44 PM
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I got married at 24, I'd been with him since I was 20. I got quite a bit of that "Why are you getting married so YOUNG?? Why not wait???" from a lot of people and it annoyed the heck out of me.

I got married at 34 and STILL heard that same crap.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23594 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 9:50 PM
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I once had a guy propose and then say he was tired of cooking and cleaning up after himself. At least he didn't say he wanted a dozen kids.

I had one guy "interview" me for the "position of wife". Seriously, he asked questions just like a manger does when looking for a new hire. That was our only date.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23597 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 10:08 PM
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I was able to do a lot of things I would not have been able to do once I was married (husbands seem to frown upon their wife taking off for a week or so to the Cayman's without them).
===========================================
The trick is finding one who doesn't frown on it :-)

Oh, he might pout for a minute, but he's also practical enough to realize that spending an entire week sunbathing and reading trashy novels on a Carribean beach is not his idea of a good time. My friends and I can't be the only married women who have husbands willing to indulge these occasional women-only getaways.


I think she meant running off with a man.

I did originally, but I figured I'd let it slide.
Kathleen
BTW, he still won't let me take off to the Cayman's without him.

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Author: MitsouR Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23602 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 10:34 PM
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I married at age 34 so I feel I have some experience in these things.

Most of my girlfriends married at age 33 or older. Truth be told, few of us deliberately "put off" marriage. We all refused to marry someone we didn't love. We all dealt with numerous seriously commitment-phobic men. We met weirdos too. All in all, I never met anyone that was both suitable for marriage (in that I loved him and he loved me) and interested in getting married until I met my now husband late in my 32nd year.

This article oddly and inappropriately points the finger at women. I guess some women choose not to marry early. I didn't and most of my friends didn't. Indeed, I don't personally know a single woman who deliberately put off marrying or refused to marry a suitable match (someone who loved her and whom she loved back with an interest in serious commitment and marriage.) I was interested in marrying much earlier than I did marry and most of my girlfriends were too. In my experience, it is today's men that elect to "put off" marriage and serious commitment even as women begin to be interested in their mid-20s or so.

By suitable match - I do not mean a "good provider" or other similar qualifier. I only mean a man the woman loves and who loves her and is interested in marrying in the relatively near term.

MitsouR

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23603 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/8/2004 11:49 PM
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I agree whole-heartedly, but the attitude is there. I've been on the receiving end.

And yet you didn't recognize it in the article.

pix

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23604 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/9/2004 12:04 AM
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Sounds like spouses who don't have kids are more respectful of "alone time" than spouses who do.

Most of my married friend now have kids. With my ex-close friend (the one who stopped talking to me over babysitting), anytime she'd come to visit just over night, her husband would call about 100 times, literally calling my place before she even arrived.


He needs to be slapped.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23605 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/9/2004 12:09 AM
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>>I agree whole-heartedly, but the attitude is there. I've been on the receiving end. <<<

And yet you didn't recognize it in the article.


No Pixie, I'm sorry I did not see it in the article. Maybe I'll re-read it just so that I can say agree with your point of view.

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23606 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/9/2004 12:17 AM
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Pixiecakes - How much better is the message that we should all find things we like to do and learn to do them well. Get a strong sense of self esteem by succeeding at something. You will meet other people with the same interests doing those activities and they will be drawn to your confidence. If it happens that none of those people is a potential spouse, at least you know you can do just fine without one. Appearing desperate and needy is not an attractive feature.

Zsimpson - I agree whole-heartedly, but the attitude is there. I've been on the receiving end.

Pixiecakes - And yet you didn't recognize it in the article.

From the article:
I suspect that few things are more off-putting to a man eating dinner than to notice that the woman across the table is looking at him more hungrily than at the food on her plate–and she is not hungry for his body but for his whole life.

Maybe if you had read the article without the pre-conceived notions that the writer must hate women, you might have caught that.


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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23608 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/9/2004 9:11 AM
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Maybe if you had read the article without the pre-conceived notions that the writer must hate women, you might have caught that.

I'm confused now. That quote, taken out of context, agrees with me and the parts before and after emphasize my point--the writer, who I think underestimates women rather than hates them, is saying that women are hungry for a man's life and has to go through acrobatics in order to not drive him away.

You said At one point when I was single, I finally got sick and tired of hearing people say, "You've never been married?? Why not?" with the unsaid comment of "What's wrong with you?", and started telling people I was divorced. So what attitude was it that you said you faced firsthand if not the one that an unmarried woman was to be pitied? That's the attitude I'm complaining about in this article.

Then you said What's wrong with our country when it's better to have gotten married just for the he77 of it, than to actually wait for someone you might want to spend your life with?

I think you are agreeing with me and you're just arguing with yourself now.

pix

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23609 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/9/2004 9:53 AM
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I think you are agreeing with me and you're just arguing with yourself now.

Hey, be nice with my psychosis.

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Author: XWordPhile Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23612 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/9/2004 4:45 PM
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Most of my girlfriends married at age 33 or older. Truth be told, few of us deliberately "put off" marriage. We all refused to marry someone we didn't love.

By suitable match - I do not mean a "good provider" or other similar qualifier. I only mean a man the woman loves and who loves her and is interested in marrying in the relatively near term.


I too got married at 34. I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in marriage before I was 30 (in fact, I used to tell people I wasn't even going to *think* about marriage until I was 30, and then I wouldn't take myself seriously! :-)) I also refused to marry someone who didn't meet my exacting criteria (which were *not*: makes more money than me, is older than me, is taller than me, etc.) I think that's also something this article misses--she's assuming women can only marry older men. Why? Why do women so limit themselves by only considering men who are wealthier/taller/older than they are? Those factors have absolutely nothing to do with what kind of person the man is, or how good a husband he'll be.

I also think it's very important for both partners in a marriage to have built themselves a life before merging it with someone else, and for them to have "sown their wild oats." JMHO.

Ellen
coming up on 4 years with the ball-and-ch...I mean, my wonderful hubby :-)

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Author: ogrecat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23613 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/9/2004 7:43 PM
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I too got married at 34. I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in marriage before I was 30 (in fact, I used to tell people I wasn't even going to *think* about marriage until I was 30, and then I wouldn't take myself seriously! :-)) I also refused to marry someone who didn't meet my exacting criteria (which were *not*: makes more money than me, is older than me, is taller than me, etc.) I think that's also something this article misses--she's assuming women can only marry older men. Why? Why do women so limit themselves by only considering men who are wealthier/taller/older than they are? Those factors have absolutely nothing to do with what kind of person the man is, or how good a husband he'll be.

I thought I would never get married.
Somehow he talked me into it when I was 26.
The divorce 7 years later was also his idea.
I will nor remarry.


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Author: DeeLeigh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23614 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/10/2004 8:13 AM
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I was living with my boyfriend from age 24 to 33. We had gotten into our thirties, he didn't want to make any decisions about the future (pro OR con marriage, pro OR con kids) and it had gotten very annoying. So, I went off to grad school, and while I was there I fell in love with another man. Now the two of us are talking marriage; we might even decide to have children.

While I was at school, living by myself in a big city, I had a lot of guys (many of them younger) interested in me. I'm in my mid thirties, a bit geeky, and slightly fat (no, really). So, I don't understand the "train full of weirdos" metaphor in the article. I just didn't see a shortage of worthy men - even for someone (me) who a lot of people would consider very imperfect. Okay, so I wasn't "hunting a husband," and many of them were younger (nothing wrong with that - I make decent money when employed & don't need a gravy train, and, well, you know about the advantages of young men :-). In fact, I originally had no intention of dumping my ex, who is a wonderful person in most ways. (Anyone need a cute, intelligent, domesticated, but somewhat indecisive 36 year old? 'cause he's available now.)

Anyway, the article sounded like a bunch of b.s. to me... Even with all the talk about independance and career, it sounded like the woman who wrote it and her friends have unwittingly bought into the 1950s idea of femininity, and that what's causing their problems. Love and family are important, but you can't get onto the internet and order a "soul mate" or even an "appropriate husband" like a pair of shoes. The close relationships you have with others are what they are, you choose which to pursue, and if you haven't had kids by the time you're 35 or so, than you obviously consider them optional anyway (I do), so why waste energy obsessing about it?

Equal opportunity is not in any way a betrayal. The fact is, 50 years ago most women couldn't support themselves. That made them vunerable and forced them to put up with some really unjust and abusive family situations. Just being able to pay our own way and make our own life choices is a wonderful advancement, and we should apprieciate it. The next thing that we (and men) need to realize is that having a child with someone should either be considered an gift to them (and ourselves), or something that shouldn't be pursued. We're the ones who pay the price, physically, and we often end up taking on most of the responsibility for raising the children. If you want kids, why would you be interested in a man who doesn't recognize his luck in finding an intelligent, healthy, resourceful woman who's willing to have them with him? Going around with an attitude that we NEED kids, are desperate for a man to have them with, and will be grateful for anyone's grudging support and approval is pitiful and unattractive. Sheesh! Better not to have them at all. There are enough children in the world.

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Author: PanemetCircenses Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23615 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/10/2004 10:34 AM
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I think that's also something this article misses--she's assuming women can only marry older men. Why?

Because she's an idiot. But I thought that was already established.

--B+C, married to a woman a few years his senior

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23627 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/10/2004 7:28 PM
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At one point when I was single, I finally got sick and tired of hearing people say, "You've never been married?? Why not?" with the unsaid comment of "What's wrong with you?", and started telling people I was divorced.

I rememeber seeing an interview with Salma Hayek talking about how she's not in a rush to get married, but so many people in her opinion act like if you're not married it must mean nobody loves you. I think a lot of women use marriage as a kind of approval criteria, like you're OK if someone, anyone wanted to marry you, but maybe not OK if they didn't. Almost as if they're saying "see, I have a wedding band, I'm attractive".

Well, I may not have a wedding band, but I've got white men, black men, hispanic men all wanting to get to know me. Older men, men my age, and even men too young (I don't want to end up in jail) offering to take me out. Hell, I even had a woman come on to me at a party once.

So, if I feel I'm getting the "what's wrong with you attitude", I'll just let the person in question know it's easy to decide to get married if you've only got one person interested in you, but when you've got as many people interested in you as I've got interested in me, it makes it so much harder to make a decision ;P

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23628 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/10/2004 7:58 PM
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I've got white men, black men, hispanic men all wanting to get to know me. Older men, men my age, and even men too young (I don't want to end up in jail) offering to take me out. Hell, I even had a woman come on to me at a party once.

Yeah, but how many of 'em wanted to marry you?

pix
it's all about the wedding...

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Author: XWordPhile Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23629 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/10/2004 8:58 PM
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Yeah, but how many of 'em wanted to marry you?

pix
it's all about the wedding...


OMG...this reminds me of an episode of The Love Boat...(yeah, I watched it; hey, I was in like grade school, OK?)

Anyway, one of the cruisers on this episode was an older, single woman who was desperate to get married. She'd gone on the cruise specifically to snag a husband. Of course, during the episode she learns that marriage isn't everything, and learns to love herself, and once that happens, she get a marriage proposal. But she turns it down. Because, as she explains to the ship's bimbo (sorry, forget her name and position) she'd received 5 times as many propositions, and once she'd accepted a proposal, she couldn't accept any more propositions! Pretty cool story line, now that I think of it :-)

(Can you only imagine how such that would play out today?)

Ellen

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23630 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/10/2004 10:06 PM
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All of us suburban dads will suffer when they start trying to
convince themselves how wrong you are.


You asked for it:

Okay, I was home sick all day so I worked on my "article." I fit in the Starbucks mom with the obnoxious kid, the pretentious parents with the PoshTots playhouse and status lives, and the family with the same initials and creative spelling. Like any good journalist, I did exhaustive research by eavesdropping and watching other people in line at the supermarket, and then I made everything else up. (I started out intending it to be funny, but as I got going I didn't see all that much humor in it. Guess I'm never going to be Erma Bombeck.)
pix
___________________
There's a new resurgence today toward traditional values. The uncertainty of life these days is reinforcing the desire for the safety and comfort of days gone by. Young women who never knew the reality of life before Women's Lib are longing for the simpler times as depicted in '50s sitcoms like The Donna Reed Show and Leave it to Beaver--where, rather than doing daily battle in the board room, they have meaningful interaction with their children, and husbands who depend on them to create a haven from their own cut-throat office lives. These young women have come to believe that it's less stressful to have others make the decisions, to be protected and cared for, to be a feminine wife and nurturing mother. So many of them have decided to forgo personal careers in favor of more traditional roles. But is it really all that they thought it would be?

Some of these suburban mothers are beginning to feel that they were sold a bill of goods; that, in fact, the promise of a more rewarding life outside of themselves was an empty promise, and that as cute as they are to dress up in ultra-trendy Oilily for Kids outfits, children don't provide an awful lot of intellectual stimulation.

Hunter T., an athletic young mother, met with me at a nearby Starbucks. As she wheeled in her SUV stroller, Tyson, 4, was already tearing himself out of his harness. "He's really spirited," she said as he began spinning around the table. "I don't like to inhibit him--I think it's important for him to discover the world around him." I asked her how she felt about spending most of her day with a person with a limited vocabulary. "Well, he's certainly not going to pick up the big ideas by watching The Wiggles or anything, so I like to come here with my laptop and set up in a corner to work on my writings."

We get interrupted by a man a few tables over who points out that Tyson might possibly injure himself while spinning out of control, but Hunter dismisses the thought, letting him know that he does that all the time and never gets too dizzy. "I don't think some people realize how resilient children are," she says, as she continues on with her train of thought. "Tyson gets to roam around and interact with the other people here, so he's really actually getting exposed to a much more adult environment and that does enrich his vocabulary."

"LADY! Get your f---ing kid under control! Stupid little s--t." The man is outraged and now dripping with coffee after Tyson has bumped into his table. This is not, apparently, the sort of vocabulary Hunter has in mind as she gathers up the now crying Tyson and hauls him out the doorway. "Odious little man. If he's so afraid of getting a little coffee on himself, he should stay out of coffee shops."

Then there are the mothers who thought that raising a family would be a welcome change from the pressures of fast paced careers. I spoke recently with Amanda L., mother of Branson, 5, and Madison, 3, and wife of Jerome, a CFO for a metropolitan brokerage firm. "I thought I would be able to run my business from home while the children slept," she says, "and I did--for a while. But once they started making friends, it became a constant caravan of getting them to all their play dates and classes and such. It's so important for them to have the proper background in society so they can get into the right schools and make the right connections--I don't think Jerome realizes that. He just kind of dismisses it when I call him about things like that during the day. I need his help to get little Madison into the junior golf group with his colleagues' children, but he expects me to handle everything involving the children by myself. He doesn't appreciate how much work it is for me to run our two households plus get the children hooked up with the right people!" As we walk around the lushly landscaped grounds, Amanda points out the PoshTots playhouse built as a miniature duplicate of their own house. "I had my decorator have smaller versions of our furniture made for the playhouse so that everything's to the children's own scale," she says, and then pauses. "I guess that makes it three households I have to run."

Finally, there are the moms who are surprised to find that raising a family is a job that does not come with paid vacations. I spoke with Mishelle H. as she headed out to do the grocery shopping. She buckled 14-month-old M'Lyssa and M'Lynda into the cart, with 3-year-old Matthew sitting in the front. "Aren't these new 'toy truck' grocery carts the greatest idea?" she says. "I'm in here three or four times a week and I don't know what I'd do without them!"

I ask her how she's dealing with caring for three children under the age of four essentially alone, with a husband who travels four to five days a week for business. "Don't get me wrong. I love the twins and all--I wouldn't trade them for the world! But... well, I didn't really expect to get pregnant again so quickly and we REALLY didn't expect to have twins! And M'Lynda had a few medical problems when she came out, so we have that to deal with too. Gosh, I don't know what I'll do if Michael gets me pregnant again!" she adds with a little laugh. "And can I just say something? Stretch marks? Do they EVER go away? And my FEET! They're two sizes larger now! I used to be able to wear these really cute capri pants and sandals but now every pair of shoes I own makes my feet look like canoes and I have to wear these shapeless linen shift things all the time because there's so much extra room in my belly I could pack enough for a weekend. Not that I get the chance to go away for a weekend much anymore," she added wistfully. "But we're planning on taking a vacation to Disney World when the kids get a little older--that will be fun, won't it Matty? Matty?"

Looking around, we see that Matty has managed to escape from behind the wheel of the plastic truck part of the cart and is sitting on the floor back at the end of the cereal aisle, tearing into a box of Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs. "No, Matty!" cries Mishelle, "Bad sugar! BAD sugar! We don't eat sugar, remember?" as she places the box back on the shelf and cleans the sticky mess off of Matthew's hands and face.

"Of course, who knows when Michael will be able to take time off from work to go away for a couple of weeks anyway? Besides, he's always traveling all the time, so he'd rather just stay home and sit in the hammock all day." Her voice drops a bit and she adds, "I just know he's boinking Miranda at the office. He's always talking about the interesting things she does." She sighs and says, wistfully, "My brother and sister were real handfuls as kids and my mother always used to say, 'Never have kids!!!' I kinda wish I'd listened to her."

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23631 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 2:12 AM
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"Of course, who knows when Michael will be able to take time off from work to go away for a couple of weeks anyway? Besides, he's always traveling all the time, so he'd rather just stay home and sit in the hammock all day." Her voice drops a bit and she adds, "I just know he's boinking Miranda at the office. He's always talking about the interesting things she does." She sighs and says, wistfully, "My brother and sister were real handfuls as kids and my mother always used to say, 'Never have kids!!!' I kinda wish I'd listened to her."

D*mn Pixiecakes! if that's what all the parents you know are like, no wonder you think all kids are the devil's spawn.

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23632 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 8:09 AM
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if that's what all the parents you know are like, no wonder you think all kids are the devil's spawn.

Not all the parents I know, but quite a few. The Starbucks mom is a compilation of some relatives and the other two are compilations of people at work, although I have to say that the pretentious mom's kids are actually quite nice--it's just that she's a bit hard to take. The supermarket mom is more typical of the moms in my area--overworked and with little backup.

pix

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23633 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 8:13 AM
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Besides, I was working more on doing a biased take-by-take parody of the other real article than I was on an actual balanced depiction of everyday suburban life. No one I know can think of a woman who passed up marriage to a realistic potential spouse in favor of a career yet that article made it sound like it was epidemic.

pix

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23634 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 10:40 AM
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Yeah, but how many of 'em wanted to marry you?

pix
it's all about the wedding...


Have you seen most women's husbands? I think there's a reason weddings have gotten more elaborate -- to anestitize women to the reality that they're going to be spending the rest of their lives next to that guy.

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Author: ChiliChild Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23635 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 11:15 AM
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Have you seen most women's husbands? I think there's a reason weddings have gotten more elaborate -- to anestitize women to the reality that they're going to be spending the rest of their lives next to that guy.



Whoa. You would judge a marriage "good" based on the looks of the individuals? (I won't single out just men.)

I must have misinterpreted your post. That can't be what you meant.

Gayle

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23636 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 12:08 PM
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I didnt take it that way at all. i took it to as meaning that the bride knew who she would be marrying, and she would need quite a ceremony and a lot of liquor to cope with the idea.

if you believe that a significant number of women are marrying "mr right now" and compromising many important things in order to be married to someone, then you might believe that the brides are choking down a lot of things with champagne. i dont really believe that to be the case, but i havent interviewed a lot of brides either.

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Author: XWordPhile Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23637 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 1:34 PM
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if you believe that a significant number of women are marrying "mr right now" and compromising many important things in order to be married to someone, then you might believe that the brides are choking down a lot of things with champagne. i dont really believe that to be the case, but i havent interviewed a lot of brides either.

I do believe it to be the case, because I unfortunately know many women who got married just to have a wedding and be princess for a day. And yeah, they're all divorced now. It's not a new thing, either--my mother said it was common in her day as well.

Ellen

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23638 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 8:28 PM
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Whoa. You would judge a marriage "good" based on the looks of the individuals? (I won't single out just men.)

I don't mean seen as just whether they're good looking or not. But if you've been around some people's spouses (or LTR) you can tell if they're slovenly, haven't read a book since high school but are up on all the latest video games, etc.

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23639 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/11/2004 8:32 PM
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I do believe it to be the case, because I unfortunately know many women who got married just to have a wedding and be princess for a day. And yeah, they're all divorced now. It's not a new thing, either--my mother said it was common in her day as well.

I know a lot of women too who at about 26, they decided they wanted to "be married" and either they married the next guy they dated (amazing how Mr. Right turns up the moment you're ready) or every guy they dated for 6 months once they were ready to be married got the "where is this relationship going" speech. When it's the same friend asking this of 3 boyfriends in a row, it's really hard for me to believe all 3 guys were her soulmate.

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23640 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 12:38 AM
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well, youre more likely to have accurate information than i am. i just cant understand marrying someone you dont love and respect. i just dont understand a lot of things tho

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Author: pixiecakes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23641 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 11:30 AM
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every guy they dated for 6 months once they were ready to be married got the "where is this relationship going" speech.

I had a friend like that. She was very businesslike about it all. If she found a guy she liked, she started in on the "where is it going" stuff because she wanted to start a family and didn't want to waste time and a twinging utereus on a guy who didn't have the same goal. I'm not so sure she thought of them all as soulmates so much as potential sperm doners.

pix

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23642 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 12:25 PM
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Another thing I realized last night:

If a guy's in his 30's and is single, a very popular assumption will be "He probably hasn't met the right woman yet".

But, if a woman in her 30's is single, a popular assumption will be "She's probably too picky".

Anyone else notice this?

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Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 12:32 PM
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If a guy's in his 30's and is single, a very popular assumption will be "He probably hasn't met the right woman yet".

Actually, if he has never been married the most popular assumption is that he is gay.


RJ....almost 33....never married...NOT gay.




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Author: XWordPhile Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23644 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 2:51 PM
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If a guy's in his 30's and is single, a very popular assumption will be "He probably hasn't met the right woman yet".

But, if a woman in her 30's is single, a popular assumption will be "She's probably too picky".


This is just saying the same thing, different ways, really.

Ellen
was picky and so didn't meet Mr. Right until her mid-30's...

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Author: zsimpson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23645 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 8:34 PM
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But, if a woman in her 30's is single, a popular assumption will be "She's probably too picky".

Anyone else notice this?


Yes.

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Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 9:17 PM
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Interesting how the married people all think this article more benign than those of us to whom it was directed.

Not ALL the married people. I thought it was just plain awful!

I am married (no kids), and love DH very much. BUT, when looking back (I'm 44), one of the happiest times of my life was when I was stationed in Montery, CA in the army, living in a studio apartment, alone. I really think it depends on the personality of the person. Some people just NEED lots of people around all the time. Neither DH nor I are like this and I think that's the reason why we get along so well. We spend alot of time together, but also a lot of time alone in the same house, doing our own thing.

I was married to a "needy" guy before and it was just not pretty.

3MM

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Author: Esconopeles Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23647 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/12/2004 10:04 PM
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<in Montery, CA in the army, living in a studio apartment, alone.>

Sounds like heaven to me, except for the army part, of course. :-) (And high gas prices, and der gropenfuhrer, and way too many people, and. . .) Hmmm. I think I'll just stay put.

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Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/13/2004 2:41 PM
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When it's the same friend asking this of 3 boyfriends in a row, it's really hard for me to believe all 3 guys were her soulmate.

I bet we all know of those girls.

6

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23661 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/14/2004 12:07 PM
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If a guy's in his 30's and is single, a very popular assumption will be "He probably hasn't met the right woman yet".

But, if a woman in her 30's is single, a popular assumption will be "She's probably too picky".

This is just saying the same thing, different ways, really.


I don't see it as saying the same thing two different ways. The first gives the impression the right woman hasn't come along for the guy in question, but when she does he'll know it. The second gives the impression plenty of right men have come along, but the woman has too many requirements to see it.

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Author: Joelsenior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23667 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/14/2004 12:26 PM
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If a guy's in his 30's and is single, a very popular assumption will be "He probably hasn't met the right woman yet".

But, if a woman in her 30's is single, a popular assumption will be "She's probably too picky".
MaestroCindi ====================================================


I thought the popular assumption will he is a homo and she's ugly

Joelsenior

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Author: Joelsenior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 23668 of 35757
Subject: Re: a cautionary tale - :) Date: 6/14/2004 12:28 PM
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Actually, if he has never been married the most popular assumption is that he is gay.

RJ....almost 33....never married...NOT gay.
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Ouch! Note to self, read ahead before replyling

Joelsenior

ps NOT gay, sure


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