i had lunch w ken yesterday....he and his wife adhere to a DONT ASK DONT POLICY.i hope that satisfies you.s.
Um, no, it doesn't."don't ask, don't tell" means she doesn't know what's going on, therefore it is not above-board.I state again, if you can't sit down with her and discuss your relationship with her husband, there's something wrong.I also state this as a person who believes open and poly relationships can work, for the record.Ishtar
ocd: "you" meaning the disdainful ones....as for the rest--and you know who you are, thank you for speakingwith kindness in spite of your disapproval,and to the friends who didnt speak though they disapproved, thank you for staying silent rather than casting stones ......yours,sashamore
OCD; DONT ASK, DONT TELL
ishtar: with all respect, i dont agree...(surprise, surprise)DONT ASK, DONT TELL is, i believe, a sort of social contract inwhich nobody wants to know nothin'....sasha
Maybe so, but I would not be comfortable with it.My personal rules/guidelines do allow for the idea of open relationships. But by my rules, the wife would need to have a face-to-face conversation with me and explicitedly state that it was ok for me to have a relationship with her husband. (and yes, this has actually happened.)And I've also known men who CLAIMED to have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with their wives. But the wives were not aware of this. How do I know? I had someone ask the wife. The wives in this situation *always* thought their relationship was monogamous (in my experience).I have a friend this happened to, as well. Guy flirted with her outrageously at every event they were at together. She thought they were getting together at this one event, asked about his wife. "oh, you know, don't ask, don't tell; what happens at War stays at War (SCA events)" A mutual friend was having a conversation with the wife and asked, "just out of curiousity: is your relationship with X monogamous?" "Hell YES, it's monogamous; who said any different?"Unless you speak to the wife, can you be sure he's not lying?Of course, I'm not the sl*t I was 20 years ago, but my personal rules were created for a reason.Ishtar
ishtar.....first of all, i doubt you were ever a sl*t......second of all, i KNOW whereof i speak....she is a well-known person... but thank you for your cautionary tales.and now to bed......with pellie and mellie, the cats whose formalnames are peleaus and melisande....(pell and mell to their catty pals) sasha
first of all, i doubt you were ever a sl*t......Yeah, I was. Not getting into details, but, yes, I was.second of all, i KNOW whereof i speak....she is a well-known person...Um, being a well-known person doesn't mean you know anything about the details of her relationship with her husband unless you've spoken to her about it.Ishtar
yes, of course being a well known person means nothing.....but i'm reluctant to say more......let us just say she is a wellknown person who publicly documents her life and leave it that.....s.
"don't ask, don't tell" means she doesn't know what's going on, therefore it is not above-board.***************I get the feeling that the "don't ask, don't tell" means both of them have extra-curricular 'friendships', so I suspect she does know about his outside-the-marriage friends. I'm sure she also has 'friends' outside the marriage.
And after all, this policy has worked so well in the military. Why not apply it to personal lives?
i'm sure...whenever i've asked ken over the years, doncha think she knows...or doncha think she's seeing someone(s).....the answer is always the same: we dont ask, we dont tell.....of course she is.yrs,sasha
Let me ask you a question. Why would you believe him? Maybe he thinks they have a don't ask don't tell policy and she doesn't have any idea about it.At any rate, I will drop it. There is nothing you can say to me that would make this relationship OK. But you are the one living it. I just don't understand how someone who is seemingly so interested in the ethics of situations would do something like this.
anattafool added to your Favorite Fools list Can't think why I didn't do that ages ago. Thanks for saying what I was thinking better than I said it.Ishtar
anattafool......i am sorry i have personally offended you to such a degree that youfeel it is necessary to continue to denigrate me.....to make me your public whipping boy....but maybe that is just your way, and so i forgive you.i strive to do good...i care about other people and their feelings,i care about the human condition, about being kind, about beinggenerous in thought and deed, but i am not a saint...are you?s.
i am sorry i have personally offended you to such a degree that youfeel it is necessary to continue to denigrate me.....to make me your public whipping boy....but maybe that is just your way, and so i forgive you.i strive to do good...i care about other people and their feelings,i care about the human condition, about being kind, about beinggenerous in thought and deed, but i am not a saint...are you?I didn't see where she denigrated you. I see her calling you on something that seems hypocritical. If you were truely concerned with other people's welfare, you would not have carried on a 20+ year affair with a married man.I have mentioned that I have been on all three sides of the triangle, so I'll tell you my story. My only excuse is that I was young.I was 20. He was 30. He was a married officer (Navy). We were stationed in Italy. He was funny, charming, dynamic and we just clicked. When I first met him, I didn't know he was married. I invited him to a house-warming for my first apartment.He showed up, with his wife. My first thought was, "oh, darn, he's married" quickly followed by, "and he likes brunettes." And I wrote him off my 'potentials' list. Over the next several months, we found ourselves at some of the same parties & get-togethers, since overseas military communities are usually pretty small. We always had a good time talking to each other about everything under the sun. At some point, he transferred to my department. One day he needed a ride home, and I was there with a working vehicle. He had been catching rides to and from work from several people in the dept, so that wasn't a huge deal.It became a big deal when we were half-way there and he said he didn't want to go home. We stopped an picked up some wine and went to a near-by beach. In Italy. How freaking romantic could you get? he talked, I listened. His wife didn't get him. She trapped him into getting married by getting pregnant (at this point they had a 4 year old and a 9 month old). They'd been together 10 years and he'd never really been with anyone else, because she followed him from their hometown to his first real duty station. He had twice recently moved into a hotel, but couldn't afford it, so kept moving back in with her but was sleeping on the couch. He knew how that sounded, but he assured me, they really were seperated emotionally. Knowing me was giving him the courage to really seriously think about leaving her. (with 2 small children, don't forget.) He was helping her pay to finish grad school so she'd be able to get by without him, and that was IT, once she was finished with grad school, he'd be gone. Would I be even half-way interested in him?Well, duh, we're sitting on a beach in Italy sharing a bottle of wine, and I was already half-drunk as it was. Sure I was interested. We did not have sex at that point, but we did kiss.He moved out of her house and was staying with friends of his/mine that lived down the road from me. For a few weeks, he even stayed at my place. We did not have sex until he had moved out and was starting to take steps to get divorced. That was what I clung to, to ease my guilt. He was leaving her anyway, he was not leaving her for me.It was exciting. Not only was he married, but by this point, he was an officer in my direct line of command, which is an extreme no-no. That simply added to the excitement. He'd sneak away from the friend's house and walk the two blocks to my place and then sneak back to the friend's. He borrowed the XO's car when she was out of town, and we drove up the coast to some small town where we could walk holding hands. I was maintaining a public casual relationship with another guy as a blind, to make people think I wasn't seeing LTJG. I was out by myself at this one popular nightclub one night. Casual guy was there and so was LTJG's wife. He kept staring at her all night. He knew I wasn't serious about him, and I wasn't out with him that night. She came up to me and talked to me for a bit, recognizing me from my housewarming party. OMG! This was embarrassing and tricky. She had NO IDEA I was seeing LTJG. She knew he was seeing someone, but not who it was. She thought we were friends. Casual guy realized I knew her and asked for an intro. They danced a bit, I danced with other guys. By the end of the night, she had told me her side of the story, calling her husband all kinds of filthy names, and actually asking my advice about whether or not she should hook up with casual guy.I'm ashamed to say that I pushed her to hook up with him, even letting casual guy know I'd be ok with him hooking up with her, without either of them knowing that what I was thinking was, "if she's busy with him, she won't be worried about what her husband is doing with me." And she took my advice.We were together, on and off, for about a year. I finally broke it off because I couldn't stand people not knowing we were together, waiting for him to show up, but never knowing if he would or not. Can he get away today? Tomorrow? Afraid to leave my house because I'd miss him if he stopped by. I was going crazy. I should have waited 2-3 weeks longer to break up with him, though, because he tanked my evaluations that year, preventing me from being promoted, even though I had the highest test score in the dept.By the time I left that command, I was an emotional wreck. And he was still legally married to her.I've had opportunities since then to be the other woman. One time in particular, a guy had everything I was looking for and was so nice to me. He was having trouble with his wife. Before we were friends, I had heard about him being separated and getting back together with his wife several times. I was single with a 4 month old baby. He came over to "get away" from his wife. We were talking, just hanging out, totally innocent and then sparks started flying. And I squashed it. I told him that if he ever did get divorced, look me up the day it gets finalized, because I couldn't take that chance of getting involved when he might work things out with his wife. Because it was the right thing to do.Six months later, when he and the wife were getting along better, he thanked me.No idea where he is right now, either, or if they stayed together. But if they broke up, it is not my fault.Other times, other situations. . .Having also had someone cheat on me, I know what the emotional betrayal feels like. I will never put another woman in the position I was in. Having cheated on someone in the past, I'll never do that again, either.All three sides are just too painful for all involved. Sometimes, society's rules make sense and are there for a reason. I learned all of this, the hard way, by the time I was 25. It seems amazing to me that you haven't learned it at your age.Ishtar
yes, it is amazing.when do we cut out all the holier-than-thou crap.....s.
let me amend that:when do we cut out the PERSONAL holier-than-thou attacks...
If this was not the ethics board, I never would have said a word. But this is the ethics board, and YOU ASKED what people thought.And you keep defending the affair.Ishtar
excuse me? where did i ask what people thought about my relationshipwith ken?...i asked how people thought i should handle michael's threat.....this has got to be the stupidest thread ever......especially the part where some of you ladies(?) who are so perfect andself-righteous NEED, for some reason best known to yourselves, to keeptelling me what a horrible person i am....i guess that makes you feelgood about YOURSELVES.....and suddenly i feel sorry for you.i'd rather be immoral than mean any day of the week.sasha.looking for her scarlet letter
"When is an affair not an affair" Even with your lack of puncutuation, it reads as a question.Ishtar
Oh. I'm sorry. I thought this was a board where we discussed ethics. I didn't realize it was the sashamore support board. I will stop posting here immediately.
Can we let this thread and discussion end?It is doubtful that there will be a change of opinion by any of the main parties.How many of us would want our personal decisions and life choices examined by a bunch of anonymous strangers on a public board and thrown up for judgement? There are many decisions I have made that in retrospect I slap my forehead and say "what the heck was I thinking?!" There are others that I still believe were the best ones for me to make but I doubt I can explain such that someone else could understand. Is there anyone here who is so perfect they can't say the same?How many of us hold some slightly (or not-so-slightly) hypocritical positions in our lives that are somehow rationalized to help us get thru the night? Probably a high percentage, unless there's some self-delusion going on too.I suggest sasha stop responding -- it is unlikely that you will change some parties' opinions. I suggest others stop going on with this unless you absolutely have to get in the last word. If you do have to get in the last word, then do so and let it rest.
thank you rael...........a voice in the wilderness.i quit....why doesnt someone come up w a new topic and get this off the frontpage.sasha
and, ANATTAFOOL is right...i have been extremely self-indulgent, andi apologise for that.....and for taking up so much time and space.i am leaving for my beloved kenya in a few days, so this is probably the end for a while.endo na baracka...(go with blessings)sasha
i am leaving for my beloved kenya in a few days, so this isprobably the end for a while.Hope you have a nice trip and come back with plenty of stories about your adventures. :)
Ishtar,You are a very wise girl!! At least you learned all this at a young age, some people NEVER do!Allie
Sorry, I didn't read the rest of this thread til just now. I'll shut up now and keep my opinions to myself....sorry guys.
when do we cut out the PERSONAL holier-than-thou attacks... sasha,I mean this in the nicest possible way....You're a frakkin' train wreck.Nobody is playing "holier-than-thou". You are on an ethics board trying to defend behavior that is completely unethical.Doing the right thing is hard. That's why so many people don't do it.Heck, I don't always do the right thing. As I get older, I find it easier to do the right thing rather than the expedient thing, but still it's hard. So, I completely understand that it is difficult to figure out how to proceed with regards to your ..... not-quite-partner. If I found someone who was the love of my life and I cared for deeply but they were married and in a relationship I believed to be quasi-open, I would have a difficult time deciding what to do as well. My personal values do not allow for me to be in a non-monogamous relationship, but if i were inclined to poly or open relationships, I might just continue the "relationship".But even if I did....I would not be so naive as to think that the relationship was ethical, unless and until I knew from the wife (NOT the husband) that there was no problem. If that occurred, then I would not LOVE the situation, but I could be at peace with it.And that, my friend, is what all the people who you are calling "holier-than-thou" are trying to tell you.d
But even if I did....I would not be so naive as to think that the relationship was ethical, unless and until I knew from the wife (NOT the husband) that there was no problem. If that occurred, then I would not LOVE the situation, but I could be at peace with it.And that, my friend, is what all the people who you are calling "holier-than-thou" are trying to tell you.Exactly. Much more succinct than I put it, but exactly what I was trying to convey.Ishtar
i am leaving for my beloved kenya in a few days, so this isprobably the end for a while.Have a wonderful time in Kenya, Sasha! Wish I could get away for awhile as well:0)LWW
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