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Author: pinkbrain One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 176836  
Subject: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 4:53 PM
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Hello everyone,

My name is Ilyas Mohammed and I mostly post on the AMD board. I wanted to post yesterday, but did not as I was not sure how a Muslim's comments would be taken during your initial shock and grief.

What can I say? I could not believe it when my wife told me that world trade towers have collapsed. I thought she was surely mistaken. I saw it on TV, and I did not want to believe it. I changed channels and slowly I realized it is true. I could not speak.

Offering condolences is nice but they are only words. How can this horrible crime be done by anyone? And if the so-called Muslims have done this, I hang my head in shame. How can someone who believes in God and His punishment do this? The fireball they created that killed innocents is nothing compared to the fire in Hell.

I am in a quandary as to what to do. Short term, I can donate blood, but I have heard many threats against Muslims and rumors of actual attacks. I don't want to create tension by presenting myself at Red Cross where many volunteers are there to help and are full of grief.

Long term is where Muslims have to respond. The ball is in our court. If we want to live in this country, we have to provide assurance to our host country that this is not going to happen again. Even though it is only a handful of criminals who are responsible for this crime, the price is too high. We have to work closely with everyone including the political system, FBI, justice system, immigration and local officials to create an awareness and transparency that would sift out and bring to light those elements that are capable of these actions. This may require Muslims and their organizations giving up some of their privacy, but this is a small price to pay to win back the confidence of our fellow Americans. even though the above are only my thoughts, I know all the Muslim organizations are shocked by this event and are willing to do whatever is necessary.

Among many of the wonderful sayings of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), one of them that comes to mind is that he said, "He is not a believer, He is not a believer, He is not a believer, by whose actions his neighbors do not feel safe." I feel that some people with Muslim names have not only made their neighbors feel unsafe but have killed them in a very horrendous fashion.

I seek guidance and strength from God to make this world a place where His creatures can live in understanding and peace and seek frogiveness from the victims and their families and everyone that was affected by this crime.

Ilyas Mohammed
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Author: nikirae14 Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1609 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 4:56 PM
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May God be with you. I hope that you have neighbors who will allow you to feel safe, and not associate you with terror simply because of your religious beliefs. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, any more than every Christian believes that the tortures of the inquisition were just.

Niki

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Author: payumoff Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1619 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:04 PM
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Long term is where Muslims have to respond. The ball is in our court. If we want to live in this country, we have to provide assurance to our host country that this is not going to happen again. Even though it is only a handful of criminals who are responsible for this crime, the price is too high. We have to work closely with everyone including the political system, FBI, justice system, immigration and local officials to create an awareness and transparency that would sift out and bring to light those elements that are capable of these actions. This may require Muslims and their organizations giving up some of their privacy, but this is a small price to pay to win back the confidence of our fellow Americans. even though the above are only my thoughts, I know all the Muslim organizations are shocked by this event and are willing to do whatever is necessary.


Thank you for your post and your sentiments. I hope you and your family are safe and treated with dignity from your neighbors and community.


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Author: bozob Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1620 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:04 PM
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Ilyas,

I think the one big problem among greater Islam is the lack of condemnation from well known moderate muslems for many of the attrocious acts committed by fundamentalist muslems.

I am an Israeli Jew as well as a New York native. For the last 12 months I have been reading of the initial attack of radical Isalm on Western Civilization in their attack on innocent Israelis.

To me it was clear that it was only a matter of time before this conflict expanded to the US.

To get a better idea how they think you have to read what they say to
their own people. Check out the website WWW.MEMRI.ORG. They regulary publish translations of the Arabic media.

After looking at this it's no question that this was bound to happen and that it will continue unless strong measures are used to render these individuals and their organizations impotent.

bozob

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Author: Athalon One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1623 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:08 PM
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Ilyas,
I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of, as you yourself have not done anything wrong. I hope there are not going to be too many people who associate terrorists with being muslim or Islam. I am not muslim, but I do have some friends who are, and I know they feel terrible about what has happened.

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Author: exoracle Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1635 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:25 PM
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Ilyas,
You have nothing to be ashamed of and should hold your head high. You are no more responsible for the actions of the terrorists yesterday, than Christians are responsible for the actions of Timothy McVeigh. Unfortunately I fear you and your family will be subjected to the insults and abuse of the too numerous and too vocal narrow minded, mentally deficient, and bigoted minority in this country. May you find the strength in your faith to weather the storm.

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Author: Moonage1962 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1648 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:35 PM
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I really feel for you right now. The drawback to living in the land of the free is we cherish the freedom of speech above all else. As such, the typical American has to deal with the incredibly stupid "free speech" as well as anything else. I posted earlier that when bit by a Rottweiler, a person will fear Rottweilers. You will have to deal with that. This is the US. And we have been bit. Time will cure the pain and mistrust, and this country is probably best at that, but I feel safe in saying you will be the brunt of a very p*ssed off country for a while.

That is not right I know, but this is the land of the free.



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Author: katinga Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1652 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:37 PM
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I do hope that people in your community with close ties abroad come forward to volunteer for humint. Dangerous work and unsung heroism, but we need infiltrators, and the result will eventually be a special place in our history, alongside the Japanese-Americans who fought on our side even when their relatives were interned.

God forbid that we repeat the mistakes of WWII vis-a-vis internment or any other human rights violations against Muslims.

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Author: rigoletto39 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1654 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:39 PM
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Ilya:

My thoughts and prayers are with you, as well as those who died on Tuesday, and also with American Muslims in this country.

Anybody who has studied the Koran (and I admit that I haven't, but this is what I've heard from some who have) knows that God does not sanction or approve of these things. The pepople who do them are twisting their faith to their own evil ends. (And Muslims are not alone in this. Over the centuries, Christians have massacred in the name of God. Even Buddhists are not immune from it.)

We must realize that in this country, there are many different people of many different faiths. Judge them by their actions, not by their appearance.

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Author: Rimbo Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1660 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:44 PM
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Ilyas,

I hope that my advice is not bad advice, but if I were you, I would get in line to donate blood. People need to see that this was not an act by Muslims, but an act by cowards. People need to see a counterexample to the bad example set by these terrorist scum.

But I understand your fear. I just heard from a friend of mine who lives in rural New York, and he's had a hard time trying to explain to people around him that not all arabs are terrorists, and that true Muslims do not kill innocents.

I myself work for a company which was founded (and primarily staffed) by a family of first- and second-generation Egyptian immigrants who are Muslims, and my CEO's comments on the footage were, "We [the USA] should go after those bastards." Also, as a moderate Christian in California, I see how people view a religion only in the terms of its extremists, and I know how difficult that can be.

So I know that most arabs and moslems are as horrified by this as the rest of us, but I also know it's important to be seen and to be heard so that people know that these people do not represent what Islam is about. Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, teaches the Golden Rule: Treat others as you'd have them treat you. And your post is a great start on this.

It may not be safe to be in line, but you may find it worth the risk to get the word out. To be seen. To be a representative of what Islam truly stands for.

I pray for you, and every other Arab and Muslim who lives in this country now, that innocents will not be harmed by a backlash.

--Rimbo
http://mp3.com/Rimbo?tmf

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Author: OrlandoBob Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1670 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 5:51 PM
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Ilyas:

You wrote:

Offering condolences is nice but they are only words. How can this horrible crime be done by anyone? And if the so-called Muslims have done this, I hang my head in shame. How can someone who believes in God and His punishment do this? The fireball they created that killed innocents is nothing compared to the fire in Hell.

God bless you for being so concerned. Americans hopefully will realize that this terrorist attack was the work of radicals and not that of the Muslim community. We live in a country composed of all nationalities and religious beliefs, which proves that it is possible to live in peace together and abide by the same laws. We have our own radicals in this country, so everyone should understand that this is not the way of the Muslim religion, but the work of radicals. I wish you peace and I thank you for your perspective.

OrlandoBob

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Author: VodounGroove Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1678 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 6:07 PM
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There's not much I can say to respond to such a moving post, Ilyas, except to send you the biggest hug I can manage. :-)

I must say, tho, that anyone who would just condemn all Muslims because the evidence points to a few violent extremists (who happen to claim to be Muslim), is, IMHO, no better than those who committed this atrocity. Threatening (and carrying out) acts of violence against our friends, family, and neighbors just because a handful of monsters claim to be of the same faith, makes the perpetrators beneath contempt and places them on the same level as the monsters they condemn.

My best wishes to you and yours, and if I adhered to any particular faith, I would pray for you along with the victims of yesterdays's events and their families.

Kaiti


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Author: Thelonius101 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1682 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 6:10 PM
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I agree completely. We play the same game as the terrorists in blanket searches for enemies to blame and punish.

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Author: spikie Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1702 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 6:36 PM
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America is open to all people, all religions, all racial and ethnic backgrounds. That has not changed.

Barbarians would lump all of a race or all of a religious group under a single category. I would pray that the American people as a whole, are not barbarous in their behavior toward you or your family or your people simply because of your religion or your national background.

We in America, including the so-called Native American Indians, are all immigrants. We came here over a time span of centuries and put down roots. In the 1700's the immigrants from European countries came and forever changed the course of the land. People have immigrated ever since.

The only thing America should ask is that an immigrant sell out to America, just as they once did to their native land. If we are to be your home, part of your family, treat us as such. We will grow to understand you and treat you the same.

Welcome Ilyas Mohammed.

May God Bless you, yours, and the U.S.A.,
Spikie

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Author: mymacsys Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1712 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 6:45 PM
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Ilyas,

I am with you. I am professional who happens to be a Muslim woman, a visible Muslim woman--I wear the head-dress. The immediate concern that I face right now is getting people to get past that head-dress, get pass that stereotype, and know that I am too, affected by this horrid tragedy. Since the attack, I personally have not been the target of harassment, but I have not really ventured out of the university neighborhood. Tonight will be the test where I will be commuting home.

This morning, I read some reports on Muslim women harassed verbally (so far) and mosques being targeted. Sometime mid afternoon, I called one Islamic group and the news was not great either--more people called in claiming they have been harrassed. Some Muslim women are wearing their head-dresses "differently" and some even think of not wearing them for now, at least until the situation sort of cools of a bit. Everything I gathered from what I read, from people I talked to, only point to paralysing fear.

But you know what...why am I allowing this fear get to me? I should not be afraid to go to work, I should not be scared stiff in my own neighborhood. I am doing all I can as a resident of New York City, I love this City and its people and I am not going to despise it overnight.

Yesterday and today, all of my colleagues (who are all non-Muslims) offered me a place to stay till things calm down, they offered company, even volunteered to take turns to be my "bodyguard." I was touched by these random act of kindness out of concern. It brought the best in everyone.

God bless,
-Mymacsys

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Author: Spagheddie Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1723 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 7:02 PM
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llyas,

Thankyou for your thoughts. I'm sure people around you see your compassion too.

Ed


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Author: Spagheddie Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1731 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 7:07 PM
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bozob,

llyas had an excellent post; must you continually cast these tragedies and other peoples posts into some extension of Israel's problems. Do you have some proof of this. If so, please tell us. Otherwise it you sound like some kid saying, "my problem is worse than yours" or "see how you hurt yourself by not helping us more." You wrote:

I am an Israeli Jew as well as a New York native. For the last 12 months I have been reading of the initial attack of radical Isalm on Western Civilization in their attack on innocent Israelis.

To me it was clear that it was only a matter of time before this conflict expanded to the US.



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Author: dakotatycoon Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1735 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 7:10 PM
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llyas Mohammed:



I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.




Even if I did. The risks are too high.


Ty

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Author: realizer2000 One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1751 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 7:31 PM
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Nor I.

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Author: exwa Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1757 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 7:38 PM
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Nor I.

================

i was greatly impressed with the posts which followed the first on this thread - until these.

it doesn't really matter if you believe him - he speaks the truth just the same.

i am a muslim convert - born and raised in america - and i in no way condone the attack on the wtc. it went against the tenants of islam in many ways, and many muslims i know are horrified by the loss of innocent lives here and across the world.

i hope and pray that these forums open the minds of at least a few - unfortunately the hatred and bigotry i have witnessed here today have left me quite disturbed.

e

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1779 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 8:10 PM
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Thank you Ilyas, and please accept my apologies for the inappropriate and sometimes outright bigotted responses of some Americans.

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Author: fireguy600 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1787 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 8:18 PM
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Ilyas-- please donate blood and encourage our friends to do the same, all Americans must begin to conserve gasoline and donate blood

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Author: DrVelocity Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1790 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 8:22 PM
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Ilyas, pay no attention to the nay sayers.

And by all means do not fear to donate blood. I'm sure you will not upset the staff at the facility.

We pray for all, including the followers of Islam, murdered in New York and in the Pentagon.



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Author: exoracle Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1793 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 8:27 PM
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DAKOTATYCOON said: "I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. Even if I did. The risks are too high."

Completely assinine.

Hey Tim - I don't believe that you are not sympathetic with Timothy McVeigh's Oklahoma bombing. After all- YOU ARE BOTH CHRISTIANS! What more do I need to distrust you completely?

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Author: RidinTheTide Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1813 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 9:05 PM
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This may require Muslims and their organizations giving up some of their privacy, but this is a small price to pay to win back the confidence of our fellow Americans.

I look at what happened and it occurs to me that there is absolutely no way for our society to exist in a meaningful form and simultaneously prevent this type of occurrence.

My sincere hope is that the worst result is a loss of convenience, not a loss of freedom or privacy.

The best minds in the world now need to solve the problem of applying our vast, yet limited resources, to minimize the chances for, and effects of, such merciless, barbaric behavior -- without compromising the values upon which our society is based.

This is a daunting task. After seeing what those responsible for this act are capable of, I have to wonder what else they can justify.


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Author: wildstreet Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1840 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 9:45 PM
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"I know all the Muslim organizations are shocked by this event and are willing to do whatever is necessary."

I have not heard signs of regret from the muslin world except those few individuals that post in places such as this. Speaking in such a manner is very bold and inclusive, perhaps misleading. Maybe I missed it...

"I seek guidance and strength from God to make this world a place where His creatures can live in understanding and peace and seek frogiveness from the victims and their families and everyone that was affected by this crime."

For better or worse, we have all changed. Before this, muslims were another religious group, but now I now look at muslins with a whole lot new perspective. Newly found bigotry? Maybe, actually yes! One thing is for sure, in this day and age, few religions or political factions commit suicide for their God of their cause.

Agustin
(praying with my head above my shoulders...)


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Author: ClubJuggle Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1850 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 9:55 PM
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"I know all the Muslim organizations are shocked by this event and are willing to do whatever is necessary."

I have not heard signs of regret from the muslin world except those few individuals that post in places such as this. Speaking in such a manner is very bold and inclusive, perhaps misleading. Maybe I missed it...


WPVI-TV news in Philadelphia showed the leaders of several Muslim-American organizations in Philadelphia, and leaders of the Muslim-American community in Philadelphia, denouncing the acts of yesterday and expressing their personal horror at the tragedy.

-Terry


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Author: mkarim Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1859 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 10:12 PM
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Agustin,

Hold your thoughts for a minute. When Tim McVeigh bombed the building
in Oklahoma City, did you develop animosity towards Christians or Americans (h was both Christian and an American)? Did you look at Christians and Americans "with a whole lot new perspctive" like you look at Muslims now? Did you develop "newly found bigotry" then as you do now? Did you?

Why apply different standards to this situation?


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Author: carnescarnes Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1881 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 10:46 PM
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llyas Mohammed:



I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.



Why not? What in that post is difficult to believe?


carnescarnes


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Author: wildstreet Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1887 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/12/2001 10:55 PM
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American Christians? Wow you bing on a great point!

As I recall, religious faith was not the basis to bomb the Federal Building. Animosity towards the establishment "government" was.

Religious fanatism as a way and means to carry out the killing of fellow human beings to forward a hidden political agenda is a whole different story. Does the term "Jihad" ring a bell?

Agustin
(how many Christian Americans do you know that strap a bomb to their chest?)

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Author: findingmyway Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1961 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 1:42 AM
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Please - do not allow this incident to cause you shame. ALL decent and just people of the World MUST hold their heads up proudly at this time. Any other response suggests defeat - a defeat that CANNOT be allowed!

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Author: barleyhops Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1969 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 2:21 AM
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Religious fanatism as a way and means to carry out the killing of fellow human beings to forward a hidden political agenda is a whole different story. Does the term "Jihad" ring a bell?


To Augustin:

This is proof that fear is the result of ignorance. To blame an entire culture, ethnicity, religious group, etc. for the acts of an extremist group makes you just as extreme and fanatical as those you fear. Even if a population may share the same faith, political views, social opinions, etc., people are individuals who have their own understandings of "right" and "wrong". To make generalizations about any group is to deny even your own individuality as a person. There are people, of all different faiths, that commit crimes. What about the anti-abortionists who have killed doctors. Or who bombed the clinics? You may point out that there were not thousands of people involved. But murder is murder. And you can be certain that many of these murderers have been Christian Americans. So are you just as guilty, and as much of a criminal, by association since you share the same faith?

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Author: ClubJuggle Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2009 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 5:16 AM
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American Christians? Wow you bing on a great point!

As I recall, religious faith was not the basis to bomb the Federal Building. Animosity towards the establishment "government" was.

Religious fanatism as a way and means to carry out the killing of fellow human beings to forward a hidden political agenda is a whole different story. Does the term "Jihad" ring a bell?


How aobut the word "Crusades?" Maybe, "Inquisition?"
-Extremists of virtually ALL major religions, my own (Judaism) included, have at some time in their history been guilty of killing innocent people for their beliefs. They do not represent the mainstream view, but rather a militant faction.

We do not honor those who died as victims of prejudice, by responding with more prejudice.

-Terry

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Author: betalife Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2018 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 6:23 AM
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Reading through this thread, I applaud you, Ilyas Mohammed, on your courage and sincerity. Let us now move beyond the religious squabbling and treat each other with respect and dignity as human beings. These crimes were committed by a few misguided fanatics in the name of religion and more praying will just be a waste of time. Religion is not the issue here, but the rule of law. We need to move beyond religion as a solution to problems in the 21st century.

Like most Americans, I went through the stages of fear, anger, and frustration as I watched the attacks unfold. Unlike many, one of the first things I thought of is I hoped none of my Moslem neighbors would come to harm in retaliation.

I would willingly lay down my life to protect a fellow human, who happens to be a Moslem, from a backlash of violence. I would also willingly execute those who are responsible, if they can be identified beyond a reasonable doubt. These crimes are so heinous that these terrorists and their assosciates deserve to be hunted to the ends of the earth. Let us be careful, though, not to take innocent lives in the quest for justice.

Our response needs to be careful, measured, and deadly. Those who choose to live outside of society's rules have given up the right to live.


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Author: jimmayfool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2034 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 7:05 AM
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American Christians? Wow you bing on a great point!

As I recall, religious faith was not the basis to bomb the Federal Building. Animosity towards the establishment "government" was.

Religious fanatism as a way and means to carry out the killing of fellow human beings to forward a hidden political agenda is a whole different story. Does the term "Jihad" ring a bell?

How aobut the word "Crusades?" Maybe, "Inquisition?"
-Extremists of virtually ALL major religions, my own (Judaism) included, have at some time in their history been guilty of killing innocent people for their beliefs. They do not represent the mainstream view, but rather a militant faction.

>>>>

This does not follow.

Religion, by definition, is a matter of faith. As such, it is exclusive of reason, and vice versa. It has to be, simply because it can never be rational to be irrational! That's why, in order to mix faith and reason in one's life, faith itself must be the ultimate arbiter -- and if it is, there can be no absolute, final standards of measurement outside of that faith.

As you cannot prove or disprove matters of faith, there can be no ultimate resolution of disagreements. You say that Islam does not sanction the attack? Well, maybe not _your_ particular sect. Theirs did. How can you prove that they were "wrong"? You can't; to attempt to prove a matter of faith is to place reason in the role of arbiter. Reason cannot arbitrate such matters, since subordinating faith to reason entails abandoning it.

NO religion can claim to be "better" or "worse" than another, unless you apply a standard outside of and antecedent to both -- a concept ALL religions inherently cannot accept, since they are supposed to supply one's ultimate framework of judgement. Judging the legitimacy of someone's beliefs by the standards of common decency elevate the latter to a position of judgment over and above that of the religion it supports/condemns.

Therefore, as a rational man, I can accept that a particular Muslim writing in these forums says that *his* faith condemns the attack. The same goes for particular Christians, Jews etc; I can accept their *word* as individuals. But I cannot accept a statement such as "the terrorists are not 'true' Muslims". "True" -- to what standard? What standard is this, such that Islam is subject to it? The Quran? Well, whose interpretation of that is valid? How is that determined? Who sets this standard? and on and on.

If you attempt to decide that by faith, you wind up with the same problem -- one faith's conclusion will bear no connection to another's and an impasse remains. One must go outside of faith as such to resolve it, but that's a problem, too, because the only thing there is reason.

Reason rejects all faith out of hand, equally. Therefore, from the viewpoint of reason, the beliefs of all religious people have equal status: arbitrary. From its standpoint, any actual truth or falsehood in any particular religion is "accidental", coincidence; no particular religion is "better" at determining truth than another. Distinctions between faiths, sects/denominations or between so-called "moderates" and "extremists", are therefore similarly arbitrary. There is no reason why genocidal or murderous beliefs can't be the majority view. It's happened many times.

So, excusing religion as such from any role in the psychology of the terrorists, is ultimately itself wrong. There can be absolutely no rational justification for the attack, but there certainly can be a religious one, even if every other religious person on earth would have opposed it.

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Author: siren1957 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2126 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 10:20 AM
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Hi Ilyas..
What a lovely message you wrote. I can only imagine your horror at having your religion become synonomous with rapacious terror and souless acts. I so appreciate your willingness to acknowledge people's anger and hatred, while not directed at you personally will be directed at your religion. Jews have been through this for centuries and are used to being the outcast ones. Maybe this understanding will bring you closer to your jewish american brothers and sisters.

However, you live in the United States, you are an American citizen just like all your fellow moslems in our country. You came here because of our religious freedom and the ability to pursue prosperity for yourself, your children and your children's children. You do not need to do anything more than other American's are doing right now. Volunteer, give blood, be kind to your neighbors. You have no need to apologize. These animals are NOT muslims. They are fanatic fundamentalists who have twisted the Koran to their own blood thirsty means and use it as a false flag and justification for their murderous self serving acts. This is not you or your fellow muslims in the United States..or throughout the world for that matter.

The one thing you can do is educate your friends and neighbors who are not muslim about your religion. Encourage the members of your mosque to do the same. Thank you for that beautiful quote..it is so appropriate right now.

God bless you and your family...you have a right to be here.

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Author: feelex Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2134 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 10:27 AM
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Ilyas,

How nice of you to give us your side, no need to worry.

Americans go to EVERYONES aid, but no other Countries ever come to ours.

If you came to AMERICA to become an AMERICAN, you will have the same attitude. This is all we ask of you!!

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Author: LoMoney Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2153 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 10:49 AM
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I had hopes that thousands of Muslim religious leaders worldwide would have joined together by now to denounce this violence. I am troubled by their great silence.

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Author: earlmedwards Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2261 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 12:33 PM
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Mohammed
Thank you for sharing this with us.
I know this tragedy weighs as heavily on you as it does on us.

Es Sa'allem Alleh Akoum [not sure if I got that right,
but "Welcome to this place."]

Peace be with you,
and again I would remind my fellow Americans that the great
majority of Muslims and Arabic peoples share our hopes, dreams and ideals.

George W Bush this morning also warned against thoughtless "blanket" comdemnation as an angry reaction to our grief.

With God's help, and that of Allah [who IMHO are likely one and the same] we will someday lerarn to live together in peace.

EarlM


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Author: hph459 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2363 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 2:14 PM
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Be weary. I now know how my mother and father felt when they heard about Pearl Harbor. Let us react the same way they did, in defeating tyranny and terrorism. I agree that targeting Muslims in this country because of their color or religion is foolish. But be warned. Ben Ladin has supporters in this country. Groups all around us who have donated to his coffers of terrorism. There is a known group in Dallas that support him financially and maybe otherwise. Don't forget that the two men in Boston had lived here for fifteen years. So not every Muslim is happy about Tuesday, but there are those in this country that are jumping for joy inside. He might be a neighbor or co worker. These people who support the death of our citizens must be found and dealt with as co conspirators towards this tragedy. Perhaps we should look inside our country first before we strike outside our borders.This is not a racist outlook but a common sense observation of the enemy inside our own country. God bless true Americans no matter the color, religion, or background. God be with the families of the people who have been murdered or injured.

Pete

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Author: greet Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2449 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/13/2001 4:12 PM
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American Christians? Wow you bing on a great point!

The Aryan Nation and their proudly racist kin make a point of calling themselves "Christian". Just as the extremists who committed the carnage on Tuesday probably call themselves "Muslim".
I can call myself a hardboiled egg, but that doesn't make me one.

greet.



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Author: catdaddy1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2903 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/14/2001 10:00 AM
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Long term is where Muslims have to respond. The ball is in our court. If we want to live in this country, we have to provide assurance to our host country that this is not going to happen again. Even though it is only a handful of criminals who are responsible for this crime, the price is too high. We have to work closely with everyone including the political system, FBI, justice system, immigration and local officials to create an awareness and transparency that would sift out and bring to light those elements that are capable of these actions. This may require Muslims and their organizations giving up some of their privacy, but this is a small price to pay to win back the confidence of our fellow Americans. even though the above are only my thoughts, I know all the Muslim organizations are shocked by this event and are willing to do whatever is necessary.


pinkbrain,

Let me start by saying that I appreciate your sentiment in this post. You reflect values which we all should be seeking.

I do, however, take exception to this copied paragraph.

You are an American. As such, you are free to hold any religious beliefs that you wish. We, as a society, cannot use those beliefs as an excuse to curtail you liberty any more so than we do any other citizen. You cannot open yourself or your islamic bretheren to violations of privacy and liberty above that which all suffer at the expense of an event like this.

The solution is not to allow yourselves to be treated any different than any American, for that is what you are. Setting yourselves aside will only cause resentment and create rifts. These divides must be closed. Americans will just need to learn to deal with the fact that that they live in a country where there are people of all races and religions and to acknowledge that the bonds created by "American brotherhood/sisterhood" are too important to allow any group to perform self-sacrificing acts such as what you suggest.

If we cannot live together as equals, we have failed miserably. I am not willing to admit failure.

catdaddy

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Author: themeateater Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2948 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/14/2001 10:45 AM
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catdaddy I disagree with you and think Pinkbrain is absolutely right. War requires that all our liberties and privicies will suffer. The object is to win it as quickly as possible with minimal loss of life to ourside.

We're facing a determined and STEALTHY foe. Our well being and freedoms can only be restored if this foe is defeated quickly. I would implore any American Muslim who finds himself in an organization preaching treason and terror to violate their privacy forthwith.

Bruno

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Author: catdaddy1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2952 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/14/2001 10:51 AM
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Bruno: catdaddy I disagree with you and think Pinkbrain is absolutely right. War requires that all our liberties and privicies will suffer.

catdaddy1: You are an American. As such, you are free to hold any religious beliefs that you wish. We, as a society, cannot use those beliefs as an excuse to curtail you liberty any more so than we do any other citizen. You cannot open yourself or your islamic bretheren to violations of privacy and liberty above that which all suffer at the expense of an event like this.

Quoted from post: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15742692


Bruno,

Perhaps you should reread my post before you disagree. I will simplify my terms. I think Muslims should not be expected, nor should they volunteer, to give up their liberties ANY MORE SO THAN ANY AMERICAN. Clear enough?

Also, we are not at war. Not yet, anyway. Until we are at war, there is no reason for any of us to have to give anything up.

catdaddy

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Author: exoracle Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2995 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/14/2001 11:52 AM
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catdaddy - beautiful.

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Author: greet Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3318 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/14/2001 4:54 PM
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May God/Allah bless and protect you and your family.

As you know from the number of recommendations your post received on the Current Events board, most Americans can distinguish people of good will from people who are twisted and violent.

My husband has an uncle-in-law from Jordan, and although he is not Muslim, he was forced to leave his home when Israel became a state. We realize that there are at least two sides to every story.

I have friends who are Jewish, Christian, pagan, atheist. There are very few Muslims in my environment, but a co-worker is the usual spokesman for the local mosque, and he spoke today at an interfaith
gathering in our city. I wish him well, and hope that his family is protected from the misplaced anger that's in the air.

Thank you for your courage in speaking what's in your heart.
I hope you are safe, and that your neighbors and friends support you too, in these sad and frightening times.

I don't know how to say it in Arabic, but "Peace be with you."

greet.



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Author: billgwen Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 4032 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/15/2001 9:16 PM
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May God be with you at this time; our common belief in Him makes us brothers. You should not have to live in fear any more than I as an American should.

I pray that God will take control of this situation and not allow us with our human frailty to be the ones in charge.

God bless all of us and our great nation.

gwen

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Author: LoMoney Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 5939 of 176836
Subject: Re: A Muslim's thoughts Date: 9/21/2001 10:10 AM
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/* catdaddy I disagree with you and think Pinkbrain is absolutely right. War requires that all our liberties and privicies will suffer. The object is to win it as quickly as possible with minimal loss of life to ourside.

We're facing a determined and STEALTHY foe. Our well being and freedoms can only be restored if this foe is defeated quickly. I would implore any American Muslim who finds himself in an organization preaching treason and terror to violate their privacy forthwith.

Bruno */

I hope this country isn't so brainwashed by political correctness that it turns away from good advice. I don't pay much attention of "recs", but yours warranted at least as many as the post you responded to (14 at last count). Yet there were none before I added mine. Why?

This bears repeating:

"I would implore any American Muslim who finds himself in an organization preaching treason and terror to violate their privacy forthwith."

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