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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1967443  
Subject: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 3:23 AM
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I could not believe it when I read through this thread.

http://boards.fool.com/why-cant-we-help-carnival-30542441.as...

Up until now, I thought that the majority of the folks on PA had compassion for their fellow human beings. Now I'm not at all sure.

I've been on four cruises in the last 3 years. I love cruising...and now I realize that the main reason is that I've met so many wonderful people on cruises. It HURT to watch these people suffer!

I've also been concerned about the obvious problems with this form of recreation. I was not at all surprised with what happened on the Carnival Triumph. I think it was inevitable.

But I didn't expect the reaction on PA. The same people who supported Obamacare and countless other efforts to help the lest fortunate in our society, now saying "skrew the idiots on that cruise."

The primary responsibility for the welfare of their customers was clearly that of Carnival. But they obviously couldn't (or wouldn't) handle it. If EVER there was a time for “big government” to step in, I think this was it.

OK…..the cruisers were “merely in discomfort.” (like someone without health insurance????)

And Carnival is the poster child for side-stepping laws. So why should we help them?

Because American citizens were in danger. Really! Carnival is lucky that nobody
DIED (yet – that we know of). But the health of about 3,000 cruisers was threatened.
How many are (or will be) sick????

I doubt very much that Carnival will make significant changes. My experience with
cruising tells me otherwise. And people will rush to sign up for a cruise in spite of
this disaster.

The one bright spot was the way that the passengers banded together and took care
of each other. They formed their own society. Good thing, too. Because ours
will not help them.

And the sentiment on PA seems to be that this is OK. Could somebody tell me
why?

Jack
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Author: saunafool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860060 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 4:05 AM
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The primary responsibility for the welfare of their customers was clearly that of Carnival. But they obviously couldn't (or wouldn't) handle it.

The same people who supported Obamacare and countless other efforts to help the lest fortunate in our society, now saying "skrew the idiots on that cruise."

And the sentiment on PA seems to be that this is OK. Could somebody tell me why?


Jack,

I think it is just a matter of whether the people on the boat were truly in danger. From everything I've seen, the boat was on its way to port, the people were uncomfortable but safe, and there were no threatening developments.

It is unfortunate, but it quite possible was the best way to get everyone home safely.

sf

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Author: saunafool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860061 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 4:09 AM
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Jack,

I also suspect that some of the snarkiness you picked up was because one of the "free market will solve everything" posters was asking "Why can't the government help?"

The way I saw it, the snark was directed more towards the OP than the people on the boat.

sf

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Author: bufftrainer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860062 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 4:11 AM
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Rescues are inherently dangerous; inconvenient and unpleasant experiences are not.

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860064 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 5:38 AM
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Because Leftists are extreme. They think that just because some of us don't believe government should interfere with our doctor, or our dinner, we deserve to be stranded on a cruise ship or in a hurricane.

Also, because be it Benghazi or Algeria or Carnival, American lives just don't mean what they used to because it's less of a country now.

One more reason why giving up was the right thing to.

JediG

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860075 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 8:24 AM
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"Could somebody tell me"

So you're suggesting that when American citizens I don't know, go on vacation outside the territorial USA (and why not then within?) and have setbacks amounting to less than a tragedy I through my government have some obligation to bail them out? With my tax dollars? When there is a billion dollar corporation on the hook that hasn't?

I don't think so.

Ken

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860088 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 9:41 AM
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I didn't participate in the thread and haven't been following the cruise-incident story. As I understand it, there were no deaths or casualties, nobody became dangerously dehydrated or starving or unable to get to a bathroom equivalent in time. The inconvenience, while very unpleasant, doesn't seem like an emergency. But I'd never sneer at worried, nauseated, embarrassed, frightened people.

I've been deathly ill a few times and my husband once while traveling, and I've lived long periods without A/C and short periods without a working bathroom. I've been backpacking and pooped in the woods, on a 4-month tent camping trip using mostly pit toilets, been sailing just with the family on a rented 30' sloop and had a fire aboard one time (mea culpa--alcohol stoves can be tricky), and all the electricity fail, and the engines fail so we had to sail into a strange harbor and onto a mooring, and no loran when crossing open water with a shipping lane, and crossed it in the other direction in heavy fog so the hubster had to dust off his dead-reckoing skills). I feel like I know something about the difference between unpleasantness and emergencies, and this seems like unpleasantness.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860106 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 10:28 AM
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Could somebody tell me .... why should we help them?

Absolutely.

"We" did help them.... Carnival got superb oversight and assistance from the USCG from the very second the call went out from the Triumph.

A vessel disablement offshore is a dynamic event. The USCG was "on it" from the very moment they were notified of the fire.

USCG NMC immediately dispatched resources including air crews, cutter, and began planning for a possible evac, and the various needs of the vessel and the people onboard.

The fire was quickly contained by the automated fire control system, engines secured, and damage assessment completed. Damage assessment was confirmed by a USCG boarding team.

The USCG approved the salvage plan and continues coordinating and supervising, standing by to assist as necessary... and assist they did.

In this event, the USCG and Carnival determined that the danger of transferring roughly 4000 people in open water was riskier than having them remain on the vessel. Discomfort is always preferable to death.

The USCG did evac all those who had immediate medical issues. The USCG provided an escort that supervised the entire ordeal and also assisted with delivery of essential supplies and all necessary evacs.

This was a very successful salvage. The people are safely back on the beach. The vessel is secured at a dock. Nobody died.

Now the fun begins: investigation, review what happened, and consider what could/should be done differently.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860116 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 11:27 AM
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152591724900241&am...

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860119 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 11:34 AM
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152591724900241&am......

_______________________

I agree, Americans have had it too good for too damn long, time to take the SOBs down a few notches

Sincerely Barrack, because you can not move forward being led by the productive, you need to make sure nobody get's more.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860122 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 11:46 AM
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I agree, Americans have had it too good for too damn long, time to take the SOBs down a few notches

Sincerely Barrack, because you can not move forward being led by the productive, you need to make sure nobody get's more.


Lowstudent continues to sit in his basement, employing his "Random Insult of Obama Generator".... and posting the non sequiturs that emerge.

Do you ever address a topic? Or is every topic simply the opportunity to insult those with whom you disagree? Even though the topic has nothing to do with your responses?

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860124 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 11:52 AM
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The same people who supported Obamacare and countless other efforts to help the lest fortunate in our society, now saying "skrew the idiots on that cruise."

I can't believe the same people who say "get gov't off the backs of business" want direct and indirect gov't subsidies for those businesses.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860148 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 2:42 PM
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Because Leftists are extreme. They think that just because some of us don't believe government should interfere with our doctor, or our dinner, we deserve to be stranded on a cruise ship or in a hurricane.

________

That's because they think that when a Conservative like myself speaks of limited government, we are talking about Somilia or the Wild West.

Limited government is just that, but a prime responsibility of the Government is to protect the people. As the OP on that post, I was writing about helping the people on the boat, not Carnival. It's why Carnival should be fined and forced to pay whatever the rescue costs are.

If it leads to Carnival going out of business so be it.

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860149 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 2:43 PM
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That's because they think that when a Conservative like myself speaks of limited government, we are talking about Somilia or the Wild West.

no righties are just reprehensible not comprehensible.

Dave

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860151 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 2:45 PM
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To The Left. those Americans are crooked just for taking part in something offered by the private sector.

As if government never has accidents.

Space Shuttles, Friendly fire, on and on and on.

But these Leftists are Mullah's. It's either government in all aspects of our lives, OR Somalia. Nothing in the middle is acceptable to these extremists.

That's whty I support Obama giving them what tehy deserve.

Obama 2012

JediG

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860152 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 2:50 PM
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That's because they think that when a Conservative like myself speaks of limited government, we are talking about Somilia or the Wild West.
_____________________

C'mon you know that is not what they think

They are merely dishonest. They want to win an argument, it makes them feel better.

They have no actual successes, and they need all the practice in the world in spinning that all failure is due to someone else.

There are so many just flat out dishonest arguments that they use as their core platform it is impossible to take them seriously as they do not take themselves seriously, they think somehow by winning an argument with a bunch of garbage that is too much trouble to unravel that the truth of the failure of socialism is going to somehow be modified.

Yeah, I know they are not socialists, they keep telling me that as their implementations become more and more soacilist in nature. But it is not sociist it is fairness, and equality and purity and light

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860166 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 3:52 PM
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C'mon you know that is not what they think

They are merely dishonest. They want to win an argument, it makes them feel better.

___________

Actually, I do believe they think that way because that's what the propaganda from Obama and his media outlets tell people. If they were able to think rationally for themselves, they wouldn't be Obama supporters.

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Author: alchook Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860175 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 4:08 PM
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It sounds to me as if these cruisers had a real adventure out there!

Now they have a terrific story to tell.

In a few weeks they'll probably look back at the whole experience and laugh.

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860197 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 5:58 PM
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Limited government is just that, but a prime responsibility of the Government is to protect the people.

I don't thinkk libertarians like Ron Paul would agree. is this much different than a fire in one's home?

As the OP on that post, I was writing about helping the people on the boat, not Carnival.

And, apparently, according to what Sano wrote, you were dead wrong. haven't heard you acknowlwedge it. Sometimes, the government does know what it is doing and doesn't deserve knee-jerk criticism.

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Author: mschmit Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860219 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 7:53 PM
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is this much different than a fire in one's home?

When you have a home fire the fire dept shows up and puts out the fire and makes sure everyone is out of harm and tends to any injuries.
The Red Cross (in most/many locations?) shows up to help with the uncomfortable part of finding a meal and a place to sleep, etc.

In this case, as I understand the USCG showed up, the fire was put out on the ship and the USCG would have evacuated any medical emergencies.

The Red Cross didn't show up to help because they don't have boats.

Mike

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Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860245 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/15/2013 11:33 PM
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Limited government is just that, but a prime responsibility of the Government is to protect the people. As the OP on that post, I was writing about helping the people on the boat, not Carnival. It's why Carnival should be fined and forced to pay whatever the rescue costs are.


This is a complex issue.
First of all, evacuating 4000 people from a huge cruise liner in the middle of the ocean is a difficult, risky and lengthy operation.
How do you get them off the ship?
(Short of having them jump overboard)
Even disembarking them at a harbor takes hours.
Evacuating them at sea (without telling them to jump overboard) would take days, carry risks and be very expensive.
If evacuation takes 3 days and getting to harbor takes 5, is it worth the expense and the risk?

Secondly, it is questionable whether the government has any legal basis to force Carnival to go that route, if they don't want to. (Remember that this was taking place in international waters)
Carnival obviously didn't want to (for whatever reason), or they could have organized such an evacuation themselves.

Thirdly, it is doubtful whether the government has any legal basis to get reimbursed by Carnival.

And lastly, the media reports from the ship seem to have pasted a picture that was perhaps a bit overdramatized.
People on the ship weren't wading ankle-deep in their own sh1t, they (generally) had enough to eat and drink.

This wasn't like Lord of the Flies.

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Author: JohnEBgood Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860254 of 1967443
Subject: Re: A Sad Day for PA Date: 2/16/2013 1:02 AM
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Good post, sano.

Now the fun begins: investigation, review what happened, and consider what could/should be done differently.

I'm willing to bet that there will be no substantial changes as a result of this incident.

For one thing, stuffing 4000 humans on a big raft and putting them out to sea (as this case demonstrates) can cause huge problems.

After giving this more thought, and reading all the replies, I now think that it is AMAZING that things didn't get worse.

But cruising is all about money. Even the huge Carnival (or is that Cannibal?) corporation is not going to make huge changes in the way they do business.

And I, like millions of others, will line up to make reservations. Maybe not with Carnival. And I'll give some thought to what could go wrong when I plan my next trip.

Jack

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