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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 40756  
Subject: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/3/2006 8:14 PM
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I suffered a non-life threatening and not even particularly serious injury Aug. 12 and was taken by an ambulance from the local police station (where I happened to have been near) to the ER at Beth Israel Hospital a dozen blocks away for a tetanus shot. The bill from Beth Israel was something like $637, which was surprising considering the clerk at the desk told me tetanus shots go for $675.

Last week I was shocked to receive a bill from a private ambulance firm in Buffalo, NY, I had never heard of before. I just assumed the ambulance was a New York City police function, paid for by me and other local taxpayers. The two officers who escorted me to the hospital never mentioned I'd get a bill for about $520 for the short ride. I could have easily walked or taken a cab and would have if I had been told the price of the ambulance trip.

The lawyer who lives next door told me he received an $800 bill for a four-block ride in an ambulance after a minor foot injury in New Jersey before he was a lawyer. He ignored the bill and never paid it, and suffered no legal or financial consequences despite receiving bills for a year after the event.

I asked him how this sort of stuff can happen, and he pointed out that city governments make contracts with private providers for all sorts of services on behalf of "the people," and that "the people" are presumed to consent to this nonsense.

Well, not this person.
I'm not paying, period.

He also pointed out that these "services" are sometimes put out for bid and sometimes not put out for bid, and that there are often kick backs and backhanders rendered to grease the wheels of government-business "commerce," especially in corrupt cities like New York, Newark, Chicago, etc.

Why am I shocked--shocked--I tell you!

He also said that if people stood up for their rights and fought this nonsense it wouldn't happen, or at least there would be more light on it and more competition for these services. Prices would certainly come down and a short trip that costs $10 in a taxi wouldn't cost $500+ in a "private" ambulance.

The way I figure it, taxi drivers probably make $20/hr. or $800/wk.
Let's make a heroic assumption and assume ambulance drivers deserve a 50% premium for superior driving skills, so they make $30/hr. My guess is that there's a state/muny law requiring two cops/ambulance employees to do the work, where in this case one would have been sufficient.
(It wasn't like I needed O2 or a blood transfusion or had been shot. IOW, there was no medical heavy lifting.)
Throw in another $60-$90 for overhead/profit and the cost of the ambulance and we're looking at maybe $120-$150.

Obviously some of that $520 is going to the company ($200?; $300?) and the rest is going to the police and maybe to the city treasury.

So let's go back to basic econ 101.
Demand side first. I wasn't given an option to "shop," where I would have had at least three: the ambulance, a cab, walking. Throw in a private car for four. Can you say, artificially inflated demand, with a higher price?

(You get brownie points for drawing a shifting demand curve on the black/whiteboard.)

Supply side next. I don't know the details of the contract between NYC and the Buffalo ambulance company, but I do know that there are fewer options on the supply side than there would be in a free market. Maybe the Buffalo firm was the low cost and best choice and maybe it wasn't. But at $520 for a short trip, my money would be on a monopoly/duopoly situation at work here (there is at least one other service, a Jewish ambulance service I see around).

So here in microcosm is a small part of what's wrong with healthcare in America. At almost every turn, you run into the government, and you know what that means for prices and quality of service.
Let's cut the market some slack and see if prices don't come down and if service doesn't improve.

Otherwise, prepare yourself for sticker shock if you're ever so unfortunate as to need a short ride in an ambulance.

Oh, btw, my lawyer neighbor pointed out that most people look on medical professionals as authority figures and don't question their treatment, bills, etc. However, some people do get second opinions and bully for them.

And some of us don't pay outrageous, monopoly-driven bills, which would quickly decline toward market levels if more people did the same thing.

So stand up for your rights and get some knowledge wherever you can.

VS
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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27963 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/3/2006 9:14 PM
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I suffered a non-life threatening and not even particularly serious injury Aug. 12 and was taken by an ambulance
*************************************
So you chose to go via ambulance.




Last week I was shocked to receive a bill from a private ambulance firm in Buffalo, NY, I had never heard of before. I just assumed the ambulance was a New York City police function, paid for by me and other local taxpayers
*************************************
And I'm guessing you didn't give them your insurance info (BTW, I have never heard of an ambulance company not leaving the ER without this info). And the word assume...hmmm. Never a good idea.



The lawyer who lives next door told me he received an $800 bill for a four-block ride in an ambulance after a minor foot injury in New Jersey before he was a lawyer. He ignored the bill and never paid it, and suffered no legal or financial consequences despite receiving bills for a year after the event.
**********************************
Despite actually using the service rendered. I don't care if you feel it's overpriced, you USED the service. Sigh, that's part of overhead, dealing with deadbeats.


Prices would certainly come down and a short trip that costs $10 in a taxi wouldn't cost $500+ in a "private" ambulance.
**************************************
Let's see, 2 drivers that are certified (far more so than any taxi driver that I'm aware of), the medicolegal joys (yes, EMTs get sued too), medical equipment that I know no taxi has, the cost of the vehicle itself, inspections that taxis aren't subject to; I can see why taking an ambulance may be more expensive than a taxi.


Well, not this person.
I'm not paying, period.

****************************
Than why did you agree to the ambulance if you had self-diagnosed a minor injury?

Shesh.
Kristi

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27964 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/3/2006 10:33 PM
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I suffered a non-life threatening and not even particularly serious injury Aug. 12 and was taken by an ambulance
*************************************
So you chose to go via ambulance.

No, I haven't given all the circumstances, which I don't think are necessarily relevant. I placed two small items on a table in a restaurant and walked to the bar to order tea, during which time a semi-homeless guy took them after walking into the restaurant and sitting down on a bar stool next to my left at the bar by the front window. When I returned my stuff was gone, so I asked him politely if he'd seen them or seen anyone else take them. He said he hadn't, so I walked around the place before going back to me chair. I then spotted one of the items under his newspaper when he moved it, then grabbed it back and asked for the other item, which he'd obviously taken as well.

He said he hadn't taken it, that it was there when he sat down, which was an outrageous lie. I then said he had taken it and that I wanted the other item back. At this point he claimed I was "in his face," when I hadn't stood up or shifted my position other than to life up my arms three inches off the table, palms up, as I was pleading with the guy to give me it back.
He then stabbed me with sharp brass knuckles on his right hand, the kind with sharp metal points that are meant to kill and maim (you don't use them for target practice or game shooting, and the only people I've ever seen wearing them are folks you don't want in your home), which caused two sharp puncture wounds to the top of my left arm about four inches above my wrist. One was close to a vein, but fortunately not an artery. I noticed blood spurting on my pants and shirt and down my arm, which covered the top of my left hand. He had a glazed, blank look in his eyes and was staring at the street, as if he hadn't done anything wrong and as if I were an ant or cockroach that he'd stepped on.

I looked at his late 50s and obviously very out-of-shape carcass (it turned out he's on med. for diabetes and high blood pressure), did a nanosecond mental calc., and decked him with a right hook. Then for good measure and because he had what the cops described as a knife, I walked two steps and kicked him in the head when he tried to get up.
(I feared he'd try to hit me again, and I wanted him to know who was in control, physically. My other option would have been to wrestle him onto his stomach, then try to remove the knuckles, which might have risked further injury had he landed a lucky shot with them.)

The cops came and took us into custody outside the restaurant, charging me with disorderly conduct (rather absurdly, I thought, given several witnesses who saw him hit me first and who saw the blood all over me after he was down (which contradicts his lie to the cops that I hit him first)--one of them gave the manager his card, who later gave it to me, and will testify for me before the court if the charge isn't dismissed); and him with a more serious offense of cutting me with a knife and drawing blood. He had to go before a judge that evening, while I went to the ER.
Now, I contend that physically I was in good enough shape to walk there or take a cab, and that morally my mode of transportation should have been my choice, and would be in a libertarian court system.

(A cop I saw on the street tonight, who listened to my story, told me it's not my choice after being taken into custody, but he was amazed to hear of the $520 ambulance bill. I told him--gently, and he agreed with me!--that the institutional incentives of a monopoly police dept. work against consumers' choice, competition, better service, and lower prices.)

(Amazingly, the cops told me they were going to go back to the scene to interview people and gather evidence, but according to the employees there, they didn't. I put a formal complaint into the Civilian Complaint Review Board about this and am awaiting their call.)
After being given a summons to appear before a judge Oct. 12 at 346 Broadway at 9:30 AM (and anyone who doesn't believe my story is free to turn up), I went to the ER in the ambulance.

I don't know what they would have said if I had requested a less costly choice of transportation, but again, it should have been my call.

As for insurance info., I gave that to the hospital. The ambulance driver certainly didn't ask, nor would I have expected him to.

Yes, I did use the service, but it's priced like the monopoly it is, at least the transportation part, which, amazingly, was almost as costly as the hospital's services. That makes no economic sense.

Obviously an ambulance would be more expensive than a taxi for the reasons you cite, although I should point out that taxis in New York and many other cities are subject to byzantine regulations, supply restricitons (medallions), etc., that make them more expensive than they would be in a free market. This has been shown in several famous studies that are well known even to undergraduate economics students.

I'd pay a reasonable charge, but not $520 for a short trip with a non-serious condition. Since the lawyer didn't pay, I won't either.
If they start doing full disclosure and allowing choice where appropriate, then I'll pay.

I'm also told that the charge against me is likely to be dismissed.

VS


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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27965 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/3/2006 10:48 PM
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I forgot to mention that the libertarian rebuttal to the police officer's view that they couldn't release me because of liability exposure (the example the cop tonight used was what if I went in a taxi, which then had an accident on the way to the ER) is that I could sign a release absolving them of liability exposure and taking my fate into my own hands.

And after I received the summons to appear Oct. 12, I was told at least three times that they'd issue a summons for my arrest if I fail to show up then. So obviously there was no reason to keep me in their custody all the way to the ER other than the liability issue/nonissue.

Btw, the officer who first questioned me told me I might spend the weekend in jail! This happened on a Sat. at 2:30 PM.

VS,
an (obviously!) hardened criminal

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27966 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/3/2006 10:59 PM
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The bill from Beth Israel was something like $637, which was surprising considering the clerk at the desk told me tetanus shots go for $675.


Weird. I had to get a tetanus shot 2 years ago after two very bad cuts from falling down the subway stairs. I elected not to go to the ER. Saw my doctor on Monday. She gave me my tetanus shot. And it didn't add much to the standard fee for a visit.


sheila


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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27967 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/3/2006 11:37 PM
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Weird. I had to get a tetanus shot 2 years ago after two very bad cuts from falling down the subway stairs. I elected not to go to the ER. Saw my doctor on Monday. She gave me my tetanus shot. And it didn't add much to the standard fee for a visit.

I have heard a similar story about getting a shot from a family physician.
I think part of my motivation was just to get out of that awful police station; if you've ever been in one, you know what I mean.
The first cop's declaration that I might be spending the weekend there didn't exactly make my day, so I wanted to determine any way to get out.
(Whatever the opposite of a green building is--brown building?--would be a good description of the several NYC police stations I've seen. They are just terrible environments with horrible flourescent lighting overhead, pictures of dead cops on the wall, etc. A friend tells me flourescent lighting is bad for your health. I actually mentioned to the cop tonight that they should look at that. I think he thought I was on crack.)

I haven't thought enough about ER economics, but a first run would be that that's where you go if your in extremis, poor and w/out insurance, etc. In other words, some of the toughest and/or most indigent cases. That's a recipe for high fixed costs and probably even high variable costs, which include the cost of the godawful queues there (it took me two hours to see the doctor).
Queues are one way of rationing ("pricing") medical care, and they are probably as long or even longer at ERs than anywhere else.
So the real cost to me was the bill plus the value of my time, which folks often overlook. The guy next to me, a hedge fund manager, was in to have a splinter removed after taking off his shoe on his dock. His time ain't cheap if he's any good.

Spending time in queues is a "hidden" cost of America's medical system.
The good news is that's queues are even worse in other countries, such as Canada, where you can't even get some procedures, or have to wait weeks.

Contrast how queues move at Trader Joe's or other places with how they move at hospitals. True, it's hardly an apples to apples (bandaids to bandaids?) comparison, but the economics of queues applies in both places and can shed some light on the institutional structures and incentives facing consumers of both types of services.

VS

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27970 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 9:39 AM
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I'd pay a reasonable charge, but not $520 for a short trip with a non-serious condition.

Well, the $520 was the charge for a short trip with a non-serious (trivial?) condition.....it was because it was a trip in an ambulance.

Since I doubt there are special ambulances laid aside for short trips ferrying folk who don't have serious injuries or medical conditions, this is most likely to be the true cost of your trip (and would still be the true cost if it'd been free to you and absorbed by other taxpayers) Only a complete moron could equate an ambulance trip with a taxi service, seeing as ambulances are equipped a bit differently from taxis and staffed with personnel with different qualifications than taxi drivers routinely possess and are expected to respond in a timely fashion 24/7 to any and every emergency call. Add to that the cost of swallowing the unpaid bills that're inevitable with such a service in today's society....heck, it was probably a discounted fee.

Since the lawyer didn't pay, I won't either.

As imaginative a justification for deadbeat behaviour as we're likely to hear, I guess.


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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27971 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 9:57 AM
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Queues are one way of rationing ("pricing") medical care, and they are probably as long or even longer at ERs than anywhere else.

Queues exist in ERs becuase the demands placed on ER services outstrips the resources society is willing to invest there......and are made exponentially worse by folk attending for routine first aid procedures following trivial injuries such as splinter removal.

ERs are intended for the use of folk who're taken suddenly and seriously ill or who suffer serious accidents requiring major interventions. That they've become the default for the uninsured to receive free care doesn't make ther service any cheaper.

While you and your hedge fund buddy were sitting thinking how valuable your time was (while continuing to sit and wait) what do you imagine was happening behind the scenes.......maybe someone perhaps, possibly having a heart attack/being treated for a sucking chest wound/someone's infant having febrile convulsions/maybe a road traffic accident or six???

You weren't in a "queue".....you were relegated to the end of the list because your condition didn't warrant immediate attention over and above those who were there for more legitimate reasons.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27972 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 10:40 AM
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Weird. I had to get a tetanus shot 2 years ago after two very bad cuts from falling down the subway stairs. I elected not to go to the ER. Saw my doctor on Monday. She gave me my tetanus shot.

Not so weird if you think about it. The difference in cost for identical procedures in the ER as compared to your physician's office would be like the difference in cost of the identical fillet mignon as served up in, say, La Bernadine or Per Se compared to your favourite "nice" restaurant.

The costs of that tetanus shot in the ER has to pay for the extra staffing and technology to handle what ERs are supposed to be handling, the burden of providing non-ER services for those without insurance (and often without the means/willingness to pay)....I've come across folk who've elected not to provide themselves with medical insurance, have used the ER for something routine and then adopted the "let them find me" attitude when presented with the bill after the fact...and the extra "tax" that accrues from having to provide energency services for all comers...with or without insurance.

The true cost of getting an aspirin in the ER is probably about $50.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27973 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 10:45 AM
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is that I could sign a release absolving them of liability exposure and taking my fate into my own hands.

Do you carry a folio of such 'release forms' to cover all the various real life situations a libertarian constantly encounters?

Imagine the cost savings one could realize if we just walked around wavering when it seems convenient and financially beneficial to do so.

A couple observations: * somer people go into shock from minor traumas. The cop knows this. * most taxis don't want a dripping bloody scuffler messing up their back seats * ambulances are staffed for the stuff it normally encounters which includes lots of CPR. It takes 2 for that. * any emergency transport business has to charge enough to cover 24/7 ops, regardless of whether the units are on a response or not * also, you forgot to include the time spent RTB and cleaning the unit in your libertarian fantasy.

Other than that.... good story.




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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27974 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 10:48 AM
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Either you didn't read my previous post in which I acknowledged the higher cost of a ride in an ambulance and agreed with a previous poster (while also pointing out that taxis are more expensive than they would be in a free market), or you spent a bit too much time in the public schools and haven't developed proper reading skills.
There is no question that the cost of an ambulance ride is higher than it would be without all the regulations and taxes that New Yorkers have to put up with.

I don't think not paying an outrageous bill qualifies me as a deadbeat, particularly when I had no contractual relationship with the ambulance.

You need a course in anger management and probably need medication for high blood pressure.

VS
BP: 98/56
jog three miles daily
100 push ups/situps
weights

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27975 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 10:58 AM
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You werent' there and have no idea of the conditions in the ER.
I saw one person with what could be described as a serious injury, but it wasn't a gun shot. He was in a bed off to the side and had been there for quite some time, or so I had the impression. He was also being attended to by two physicians. (This was Sat. at 3 PM, not 3 AM, when far more vioent street crimes occur.)

The hedge fund guy was not my "buddy." We were conversing, that's all.

He'll no doubt be glad to hear of your characterization of his injury as "trivial." I don't think doctors in the area are open on Sat. at 2:30, so the ER was probably his only option. In any event, he thought it was serious enough to see a doctor. Maybe he was in more pain that I realized, although perhaps you know better.

Your first point about queues seems to be consistent with mine and certainly doesn't refute my economics, except we were in a queue, which is a fancy word for a line, contrary to your assertion that we weren't.

VS

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27977 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 1:42 PM
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You need a course in anger management and probably need medication for high blood pressure.


Perhaps you're looking in the wrong direction. Your BP may be just dandy, but I can't recall your ever posting anything but angry narratives and jabs. True, I know you from only two boards--this one, and Folly in New York--but your posts in both places have ranged from put-downs to outrage, first at whatever situation/condition you are railing and ranting against, then at the people who find your views, or your expression of them, unpleasant or offensive.


sheila

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27978 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 2:27 PM
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The lawyer who lives next door told me he received an $800 bill for a four-block ride in an ambulance after a minor foot injury in New Jersey before he was a lawyer. He ignored the bill and never paid it, and suffered no legal or financial consequences despite receiving bills for a year after the event.

Do you know that he's checked his credit score to make sure the bill was never reported as past-due? Plus as a lawyer I would think he'd be aware that NJ State law is probably somewhat different than New York State and City law, and what happened to him may not happen to you when it comes to ignoring a bill.

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27979 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 5:00 PM
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Queues are one way of rationing
***************************************
No, lines exist because people use the ER for minor, nonemergent things. It's called triaging - deciding who needs emergent attention and who, quite frankly, can wait for hours. I have been to the ER twice in the last year, both times with my DS who has asthma and I wasn't able to control the attack at home. The first time, he was in the PICU 40 minutes after I signed in. The second time, he was seen within minutes (you don't mess around with a toddler having an asthmatic attack).

YOU waited because it was deemed that you could wait without further endangering your health.
Kristi

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27980 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 9:45 PM
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I probably responded to what's her name in kind, but certainly my few posts this week don't fit that bill.
I remember her attack immediately after my first post a while ago, which certainly didn't merit that sort of response.
Unless you think an economic analysis of healthcare is ipso facto an "angry narrative"--maybe you could paste in an example in which I did this. I see some people agreed with my posts, people who have presumably posted like-minded things. I don't recall you saying they had "angry narratives."

Let's fact it: what's her name is in permanent attack dog mode.
It's about her, not me. I don't know why The Fool lets her get away with it, I wouldn't.

And for the record, I haven't read this board in ages, but responded to
(I think) a post of the day here that was about an issue I have an interest in, namely the economics of healthcare.

I've never put down anyone at either board, except politicians, who gain their living by the political means, as opposed to the economic means, and generally make a botch of things, particularly in New York.

You might not want to hear this, but politiciians and politics are responsible for our current healthcare mess. The market works everywhere it's actually tried, so I suggested letting it work in healthcare. If pointing this out is an "angry narrative," it's you who has an anger mgmt. issue as well. I would suggest engaging the issue and making reasonable criticisms where you think my analysis is incorrect. The fact that you didn't but instead essentially attacked my character speaks volumes for yours.

There was one post in particular you directed at me on the NY board last year, in which you basically insinuated that I'm a moron with a one-word putdown. I didn't respond, but will note know that it might apply to you.
It was predictable that you'd respond this way, as what's her name did, but at least she engaged the issue and made a reasonable statement, although I disagreed with her assertion that queues don't exist in ERs and no economist would agree with it. I certainly don't think my rejoinder her was an "angry narrative."

So look in the mirror if you wish to find the source of "angry narratives," clean up your own act, and make a positive contribution to this important issue, which I'm sure you could. I feel my recent posts here are such a contribution, and I'm sorry for having put up so much stuff on the restaurant issue, but had to explain the circumstances.

You are also free to ignore my posts or those of others who argue for the free market in healthcare and against heavy-handed government intervention in this field.

VS

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27981 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 9:50 PM
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Do you know that he's checked his credit score to make sure the bill was never reported as past-due? Plus as a lawyer I would think he'd be aware that NJ State law is probably somewhat different than New York State and City law, and what happened to him may not happen to you when it comes to ignoring a bill.

I asked him about his credit score and he said it's fine. That is a concern, and you are right to point it out. At the time of his incident, he wasn't a lawyer, but this could affect me differently, no question. I'll probably do a rethink.

VS

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27982 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 10:21 PM
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I reviewed my posts since 9/2 and none attacks any specific person's character, either on this board or anywhere else.

VeeEnn's 9/4 response to a post of mine contains "moron" and "deadbeat" used in reference to me. Again, my rebuttal to her was perfectly reasonable. Not paying a bill a few days after receiving it doesn't make me a deadbeat and there certainly are contestable bills, as I think this one is.

As for any reference to posts of mine a year or more ago, that is bizarre and has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I stand behind everything I've written since 9/2, typos and all.

VS

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27983 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/4/2006 10:39 PM
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What astonished me from the very beginning was that you actually left possessions on an empty table in NYC and--however briefly--turned your back on them. I was speechless. That goes against the most basic self-protective reflex here. Same as you never ever leave your pocketbook or backpack hooked over your chair where someone could get into it without your awareness.

Doing what you did courted theft. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not implying that you caused the ensuing problems. But....


sheila

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27986 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 6:54 AM
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That particular restaurant is sometimes hard to get a seat in, and I do that occasionally and never had a problem. I was ten feet away making my order. Yes, this can be a problem.

But please stop with the faux "speechlessness." For the record, the items were a magazine and chocolate bar with a street value of about zero. I wouldn't leave something like a cellphone, etc.
You should get the facts before leaping to conclusions.

Btw, I might have done the jerk a favor by punching him out. He might think twice before doing it again. The next guy might be a lot more brutal than I was.

VS


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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27987 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 6:55 AM
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I remember her attack immediately after my first post a while ago, which certainly didn't merit that sort of response.

Boy, anti-alkalyzing barbs run deep. Actually, on this board, inaccurate information always merits correction.

IIRC, most responses that've pointed out the errors in your thinking or shortcomings in your knowledge....regardless of source or your subject matter... have usually been perceived as attacks. Somewhat reminiscent of watered down CatherineCoy.

I believe I also asked in that memorable post for any evidence that the US public is suffering from too much protein, per your statement (although it might've been the resonse to your second post) You still haven't responded. Is this an example of selective memory......or inability to validate your dogmatic statements?

Seems like your main reason for posting on this board is to provoke responses that allow you to claim personal attacks. I'd normally say better that than provoking real-life attacks but considering the subject matter of this thread, it seems like it's a redundant statement.

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27990 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 7:29 AM
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"coupla reccers"

translation to English?

I don't know if the guy had pysch. issues and don't care.
I am not so naive to think he'll permanently alter his behavior, but he deserved what he got, as he had stabbed me.

The only guys who provoke and respond violently to situations like this are, well.....morons.

Huh?

I provoked nothing, and any normal guy who isn't a girlymon would have done what I did, and some probably would have done more.
My response to being stabbed was normal and justified.

So now it's the m word.

I'd say you have a "psych. issue."

VS

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27991 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 7:42 AM
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VeeEnn continues to make ad hominem attacks, which I have reported.

I have responded to her similarly, albeit without calling her a moron.

Apparently she thinks this board is her personal fiefdom and she'd rather chase people away than see things she disagrees with.

Standing up to bullies is a time-honored tradition that I believe in; usually they back down if you call their bluff.

VS

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27992 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 10:12 AM
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Apparently she thinks this board is her personal fiefdom and she'd rather chase people away than see things she disagrees with.

Standing up to bullies is a time-honored tradition that I believe in; usually they back down if you call their bluff.


Truth be told, I actually do wish that dreary non-contributors (and you're not the only one) wouldn't bother with this board....especially when such contributions as they believe they're making are full of factual errors. However, it's not really for me to chase them away and, as chris often points out, it does tend to keep us on our toes when irrational beliefs and faulty reasoning rear their heads from time to time.

Your mistake (and again, you're not the only one who makes it) is to transform a disagreement with your POV or a rebuttal to your mis-statements as an ad hominem attack and launch of into a seemingly valid self defense diatribe....the perfect Straw Man argument.

Your overfocus on being called a moron and a deadbeat would be a perfect example of this. I believe I opined that only a complete moron would equate an ambulance trip with a taxi service and that your statement that the lawyer didn't pay so neither will I amounted to a justification for deadbeat behaviour. You can choose to believe that these are personal attacks on you and are examples of bullying but since you're possibly again not the only one who might fall into these two categories, you can't rightly call it a personal attack....more like a blanket judgement of behaviour patterns.


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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27993 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 10:23 AM
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For the record, the items were a magazine and chocolate bar ....

Let me count the number of times I have gotten into physical altercations over stuff "with a street value of about zero."

Answer: "zero"

Would I "get into it" with a whackjob in a NYC dive over stuff "with a street value of about zero" I left on a table? Not a chance. Maybe he thought they were abandoned property. Maybe he was too freaked out to deal with being called on it. Seems very neurotic.

I might have done the jerk a favor by punching him out. He might think twice before doing it again. The next guy might be a lot more brutal than I was.

I doubt it. He's a few beans short of a combo plate. But you sure showed him who's boss over a chocolate bar and magazine left on a table in a crowded dive.

Such a hero.







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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27994 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 10:42 AM
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Truth be told, I actually do wish that dreary non-contributors (and you're not the only one) wouldn't bother with this board....especially when such contributions as they believe they're making are full of factual errors. However, it's not really for me to chase them away and, as chris often points out, it does tend to keep us on our toes when irrational beliefs and faulty reasoning rear their heads from time to time.

It's one thing to make a factual error, which happens a lot. Indeed, newpapers and magazines have short corrections of factual errors in virtually every issue. Not a big deal.
But you say contributions on this board are "full of" factual errors.
Presumably you think this describes my recent posts. Can you cite one that is "full of" factual errors?

As for my original post last year, in which I merely repeated information that someone had given me, I didn't respond because I had no dog in that fight (and "fight" is the operative word in anything your involved in, apparently), and I also saw that you were more interested in attacking me (and other people) than engaging in a rational discussion. Your recent posts confirm this.

A rule of thumb I've heard in posting to discussion boards is never write anything you wouldn't say to someone in person. Clearly you don't accept this rule, which is your right; but don't be surprised when people respond to you like you do to them.

VS

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27996 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 11:19 AM
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But please stop with the faux "speechlessness." For the record, the items were a magazine and chocolate bar with a street value of about zero. I wouldn't leave something like a cellphone, etc.
You should get the facts before leaping to conclusions.

Btw, I might have done the jerk a favor by punching him out. He might think twice before doing it again. The next guy might be a lot more brutal than I was.



Sorry, VS, but "speechlessness" is something you manage repeatedly to reduce me to. (Though obviously that's just an exclamation point phrase, but I clearly do have something to say.)

You said, in your description of the contre-temps....
He said he hadn't taken it, that it was there when he sat down, which was an outrageous lie. I then said he had taken it and that I wanted the other item back. At this point he claimed I was "in his face," when I hadn't stood up or shifted my position other than to life up my arms three inches off the table, palms up, as I was pleading with the guy to give me it back.

Pleading? PLEADING?Over either your magazine or chocolate bar? Sheesh. I'd figured you'd left something of value on that table, thinking you were close enough to keep an eye on it and lost your bet with fate. To get into such a fracas over a magazine or chocolate bar? Granted, it was outrageous of that guy to respond as he ultimately did. But I just don't understand why common sense didn't predominate over your sense of having been robbed of the pleasure you'd been savoring of sitting down in a place you enjoy with a cup of tea and a good snack and a good read.

And responding to brutality with brutality -- though that's not how I would have handled it, I guess that's a personal choice.


sheila






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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27997 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 11:21 AM
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I provoked nothing, and any normal guy who isn't a girlymon would have done what I did, and some probably would have done more.


Now you're just plain silly, mon!


sheila


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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27998 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 11:26 AM
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Now you're just plain silly, mon!

As are the last dozen or so posts in this thread, IMVHO.

Christina, now going to use "Ignore thread" button

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 27999 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 11:39 AM
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Common sense tells me to take back property that's been stolen and to defend myself when I'm attacked. You are free to allow bullies to walk all over you, steal your stuff, etc., but I choose to resist. And I am hardly alone in this. Because of people like me, there are fewer bullies, who can hurt people like you.

I should point out that I hadn't seen the guy's weapon before he struck me, nor did I expect that he would do such a thing. Certainly I was justified in taking back the magazine, which the cops later confiscated, despite the fact that it had my blood on it and could have been used as evidence.
The replacement cost was $4.99.

VS

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28000 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 11:46 AM
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Now you're just plain silly, mon!

As are the last dozen or so posts in this thread, IMVHO.<i/>

Including yours.

Christina, now going to use "Ignore thread" button

Uh, you posted this on the NY board once.

VS, now going to use "ignore thread button"



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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28001 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 3:03 PM
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Such a hero.

I didn't call myself one, but in your morally upside down world, street criminals are evidently better or at least no worse than people who fight back against them.

You left out the part where I was attacked with a knife after taking back my property. Maybe that's okay in your warped world, but not in mine and in that of most people.

Maybe you wouldn't defend yourself because your incapable of self- defense, but that doesn't describe me.

VS

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28002 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 5:16 PM
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Maybe you wouldn't defend yourself because your incapable of self- defense, but that doesn't describe me.


Hey -- where's the school yard??!!!

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28003 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 6:53 PM
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Maybe you wouldn't defend yourself because your incapable of self- defense, but that doesn't describe me.

Dude, he got you. He got you good.

Your power of persuasion was no better than your ability to defend yourself.

Any psych-tech would call you the loser for going into a confrontational situation unaware of the possible outcomes.


sano






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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28004 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 7:13 PM
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Clearly you don't accept this rule, which is your right; but don't be surprised when people respond to you like you do to them.

Now I do feel you're being a tad dishonest here with your "responding in kind" mantra and your complaints about ad hominem attacks.

See, if you were really responding in kind, rather than suggesting anger management issues, high blood pressure and whatnot, it'd be along the lines of..."only a complete moron would expect folk to check their facts before posting as if they know what they're talking about" or...."anyone who expects folk to apply any critical analysis to the stuff they read or hear has to be, well.....a moron".

Now, that'd resemble "responding in kind"....i.e. in a way that irks the folk who behave in the way described. Of course, if you did respond is such a way, I guess I could only agree with you. ....but I'll continue to poke holes in faulty reasoning and inaccurate statements anyway. Somebody listens.

P.S.....this is as much an attack as you want it to be.

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28005 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 7:27 PM
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Dude, he got you. He got you good.

Dude, I smashed his face and kicked his head. And if he had come at me again, he wouldn't have got up off the floor, which was the point of the exercise. Got it?

Your power of persuasion was no better than your ability to defend yourself.

I thought I defended myself rather well. The head kick was just like the movies and pretty cool.
I'll bet he thought I defended myself well too.

Any psych-tech would call you the loser for going into a confrontational situation unaware of the possible outcomes.

Don't know what a psych-tech is, but I was hardly the loser in the confrontation even though he drew blood.
Presumably a "psych-tech" would call you ignorant for making a judgement about a situation you were not involved in and have no direct knowledge of.
I had never been attacked that way before, and reacted instinctively, in a way I think many, perhaps most, people would.

Your moral jugdement about a situation in which I was attacked by a goon with a lethal weapon and then defended myself is beyond bizarre.
It's redolent of modern "liberals," who think that violent criminals should be excused for their crimes because of their poverty, "mental illnesses," or past "victimization."
Even worse is your hostility toward me. What did I do to deserve that?

You're not unlike VeeEnn (and sheila to a lesser extent), who seem to equate intellectual error with moral sin, and see posters "full of" factual errors as doing the work of the devil.
If you ever get attacked on the street, don't look for sympathy or defense from me.

VS,
fan of Dirty Harry and Charles Bronson's kick ass moment










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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28006 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 7:32 PM
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See, if you were really responding in kind, rather than suggesting anger management issues, high blood pressure and whatnot, it'd be along the lines of..."only a complete moron would expect folk to check their facts before posting as if they know what they're talking about" or...."anyone who expects folk to apply any critical analysis to the stuff they read or hear has to be, well.....a moron".

Your use of the term "moron" clearly was to insinuate that I am one.
I did not imply that you are one, but I did point out that you have anger management issues, because you do.

And you have an attitude of moral and intellectual superiority.
Judging from the scoreboard, other people here agree with me.

VS

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28007 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 8:01 PM
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I thought I defended myself rather well. The head kick was just like the movies and pretty cool.

Gee whiz. Maybe movie violence provides a role model for more than just impressionable kids. Or....perhaps Mr. VS is really an impressionable pre-adolescent in adult's clothing.


It's redolent of modern "liberals," who think that violent criminals should be excused for their crimes because of their poverty, "mental illnesses," or past "victimization."

Wake up, please. That's a tired old refrain.


You're not unlike VeeEnn (and sheila to a lesser extent), who seem to equate intellectual error with moral sin, and see posters "full of" factual errors as doing the work of the devil.

It's not intellectual error, but refusal to take one's blinders off, refusal to acknowledge that just maybe....your perspective was founded a bit on unstable ground. And astonishment that flaunting an arrogant, aggressive attitude triggers a negative response, insisting that you are above blame and that your detractors are defective.


sheila





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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28008 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 8:25 PM
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And you have an attitude of moral and intellectual superiority.
Judging from the scoreboard, other people here agree with me.


Of course they do, you silly.....they're the folk who, like you, have shown an incomplete grasp of the facts they chose to post on, poor inference drawing skills in the area they chose to argue with, too much attachment to faulty beliefs and been called on said shortcomings.

Limiting your posts to topics you understand, checking your facts and divorcing yourself from any emotional attachment to facts as they present themselves is bound to look like intellectual superiority to those who're unable/unwilling to do that.




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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28009 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 8:57 PM
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Hey -- where's the school yard??!!!

This is typical of this poster's missives, as a perusal of the NY board shows.
It's part of a style I'll call "anecdotal lite"--the odd recipe, the favorite food, the trip to the family doctor for a tetanous shot.
Such a style is bereft of ideas or facts and is therefore insulated from VeeEnn's strictures.

It reminds me of John Cage's line, "I have nothing to say and I'm saying it."

VS

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28011 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/5/2006 10:27 PM
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This is typical of this poster's missives, as a perusal of the NY board shows.
It's part of a style I'll call "anecdotal lite"--the odd recipe, the favorite food, the trip to the family doctor for a tetanous shot.
Such a style is bereft of ideas or facts and is therefore insulated from VeeEnn's strictures.

It reminds me of John Cage's line, "I have nothing to say and I'm saying it."



Your ability to draw your own characteristics on someone else and then mock them is tenaciously consistent.

And that's my final comment in what has become a pointless exercise in clarity.


sheila

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28013 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/6/2006 10:56 AM
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Gee whiz. Maybe movie violence provides a role model for more than just impressionable kids. Or....perhaps Mr. VS is really an impressionable pre-adolescent in adult's clothing.

One reason I defended myself the way I did was to send him the message that attacking people is wrong and might have negative consequences. The goon knew what was going to happen if he attacked me again and was rational enough not to do so. To paraphrase Seinfeld, didn't he know it?
Walking away would have sent the opposite message, that attacking people is okay and doesn't have consequences. Doing that emboldens criminals and leads to more street crime, not less.
Because of people like me sticking up for our rights, people like you are a bit safer.
You're welcome.

VS

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Author: FETINC Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28018 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 12:10 PM
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$675 for a shot???

Thats extreme also!

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Author: GirlCousin Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28019 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 12:39 PM
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So you blame government for contracting out to a private company? I thought privatization was the Republican cure-all?

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Author: desasmith Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28020 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 12:46 PM
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Several years ago my mother was to be transferred by ambulance from one hospital to another. The transferring hospital called the ambulance service mid afternoon. However, the ambulance did not arrive until after 7:30 p.m. This transfer was a non-emergency so this time was not a problem. When the bill arrived, it was twice the cost of having transported her between these two hospitals several days earlier. I called to find out why the big difference in cost. The reason given was that they charge more for trips after 7:30 p.m. It appeared that they may have purposely waited in order to be able to charge the higher fee.

Shirley Smith

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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28021 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 12:57 PM
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I've lived in NYC all my life and have had to defend myself and/or take action on some occasions. But one of the things I've learned through my myriad and varied experiences is that sometimes the best action to take is no action at all.

Once on a Manhattan street a man approached me and without any warning at all took a swing right at my face. I had just enough time to block his punch with my hand. My immediate response was to yell at him, "WHAT ARE YOU F&*(&*G CRAZY!?!?" After which I immediately answered myself "Of course he's crazy, he just took a swing at a complete stranger for no apparent reason whatsoever." I quickly turned and walked away into the nearest store (so that if he followed me I'd find some protection).

Yes, I could have responded in like kind with physical violence, but what would that accomplish? That I'm making the streets safer for all? That's ludicrous. I also avoided an escalation of violence which might have resulted in me being fatally stabbed or shot. Some things are just not worth risking one's life for.

Although you now feel that you somehow 'won', from my perspective the only thing you 'won' is the hassle of taking a day off from work to appear in court--heck, you didn't even get your property back!

Grow up.

2old




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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28022 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 1:10 PM
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First to GirlCousin:

Contracting out to a private provider is generally a good thing and I have no problem with that. But the key issue here is my lack of choice. Had I been given one, I would have opted for the low-cost provider, namely a taxi (preferably private and unregulated) or walking.
I wouldn't have chosen to spend $520 going a dozen easily walked blocks with no life-threatening injury.

And for the record, I'm not a GOoPer, but a libertarian and an anarcho-capitalist.

Several years ago my mother was to be transferred by ambulance from one hospital to another. The transferring hospital called the ambulance service mid afternoon. However, the ambulance did not arrive until after 7:30 p.m. This transfer was a non-emergency so this time was not a problem. When the bill arrived, it was twice the cost of having transported her between these two hospitals several days earlier. I called to find out why the big difference in cost. The reason given was that they charge more for trips after 7:30 p.m. It appeared that they may have purposely waited in order to be able to charge the higher fee.

Shirley, it sounds like your mother got ripped off, to use the vernacular. I hope she or her insurer didn't pay twice the cost.

I called the ambulance service today for an explanation, but the customer service person wouldn't put me through to a manager and didn't have an answwer to my questions. She said to put it in writing, which of course would be a waste of time.
I'll file the invoice, awaiting another bill, during which time I'll think about it more, formulate more questions, and decide what to do.

VS


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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28023 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 1:18 PM
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summing up Valuesnark: I'm ...a libertarian and an anarcho-capitalist.... I got in a fight over something worth next to nothing I left on a diner table, got wounded, busted, got in an ambulance, go to an ER where i spent a huge waste of time... I'll file the invoice, awaiting another bill, during which time I'll think about it more, formulate more questions, and decide what to do.... then go to court over the incident.

..... all over something worth next to nothing.

helllllooooooooooooooo










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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28024 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 1:45 PM
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I've lived in NYC all my life and have had to defend myself and/or take action on some occasions. But one of the things I've learned through my myriad and varied experiences is that sometimes the best action to take is no action at all.

I'm not a native NYer, but have had two or three similar experiences.
One night in the late 1980s, I was walking north along Mercer St. just north of Bleeker when I noticed a huge black guy hassling two middle-aged nicely dressed white couples on the opposite side of the street.
At first I thought he was just an aggressive panhandler, but then it looked more like he was a psychopath. Finally, he left them alone, but then he spotted me walking alone and crossed the street moving directly toward me. He walked straight toward me and got to about three feet from me, when I assumed a fighters crouch with my hands in place to throw a punch.
As I put up my dukes, he literally backed away and then crossed the street the other way headed south. There was no doubt in my mind that he was going to attack me and that I was going to unload on him, with prejudice. I think he sensed that, and also realized that I was more than a match for him.
My last real fights were in fourth and fifth grades, both wins by the way. Let's face it, every kid gets into at least one in his life.

I don't know if what in the 80s qualifies as no action, but there was no bloodshed. Sometimes taking no action is the right course, and I've been there and done that, more than once in NY. But sometimes fighting back is the right course.

I was also mugged at knife point in the vestibule of my building once and just handed over five Jacksons and a C-note to the mugger. He dropped the C-note as he ran out the door. I thought about taking a shot at him, but realized that if I didn't land it just right, then I could lose my life, so I didn't. I could have beaten him had he not had the knife.

There's a great story on the internet about an ex-Marine in Baltimore, aged about 32 I think, who was attacked one night in May by four men and one woman, one of whom had a gun. He ran down the street yelling for help but no one came to his aid, a la Kitty Genovese in 1964. So he got ahead of them long enough to undo his back pack and pull out a knife (if I recall it correctly). He kicked the gun out of the hand of the assailant who had it and rendered him unconscious with one punch and he killed the woman. The other three fled and were later apprehended by the police. They had been responsible for a wave of robberies and muggings.

There have been several surveys of street criminals about what they fear most in committing their crimes. In every one, their biggest fear factor is an armed home owner (not the cops), for two reasons.
First, they are less likely than the cops to have training in situations involving a violent crime; second, and more importantly, a private homeowner is defending his own property, not someone else's, unlike the cops. It's the same principle at work in the wild when a larger animal chases a smaller one in order to gain his dinner. The latter is running for his life, whereas the former is running only for a meal.
Street criminals respond like anyone else to incentives. If they think they can knock off an easy mark, they will; if they think they can't, they won't, at least in a specific situation. Their careers are composed of specific situations, so incentives are always at work.

Obviously I disagree with your last statement. There are times when violence is justified; this was one of them, which fortunately are rare.

Btw, if you had been within earshot of Kitty Genovese's screams in 1964, would you have gone to her aid? Would you have criticized anyone else who had? Was she wrong to have fought back against her attacker?

VS

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28026 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/7/2006 2:52 PM
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[...] But one of the things I've learned through my myriad and varied experiences is that sometimes the best action to take is no action at all.

Once on a Manhattan street a man [...]

Yes, I could have responded in like kind with physical violence [...]


2old, I'm giving you an A for your anecdotal experience and I'm glad to hear you were safe.
The bad news is that you get an F for logic. We won't get into statistics and the conclusion you drew about my experience based on your sample size of one.

You say that sometimes the best action is no action. Agreed.
But this necessarily means that some, other times the best action is some action.

VS

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Author: Ga1Dawg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28029 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 7:04 AM
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Isn't it time ya'll stop beating this dead horse?


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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28030 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 9:22 AM
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Isn't it time ya'll stop beating this dead horse?

Well, one person's dead horse is TMF's Hot Topics.....since it's the only hook that steers the majority of casual posters to this board, seems a funny sort of a post to be making, no?

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Author: beckj Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28031 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 9:32 AM
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Just for everyone's information, the cost of that tetanus shot is even more astonishing than it may seem. I routinely do the tetanus shots for my horses and enough antitoxin to immunize a horse, about six or seven times the weight of an adult human male, costs ONE DOLLAR from the veterinary supply store. And they are covering their overhead and making a profit on that dollar.
Pooperscooper

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28033 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 11:41 AM
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And they are covering their overhead and making a profit on that dollar.

For all I know, the purchase of the raw materials for the human tetanus shot may well be close to this. However, receiving the tetanus shot in the ER is vastly different from your horse receiving the shot from you (although if you wanted to roll all the costs of keeping a horse at a commercial barn....or your own place if you have enough acreage....into the cost of that shot you'd get something of an idea) Add to that the reality that, if something goes seriously wrong with the immunuzation you can always euthanise the horse and you won't sue yourself.

Can you see a difference yet???




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Author: rrjjgg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28034 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 11:59 AM
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Interesting thread.

While you'll probably win with self-defense(although you did fight back after he stopped assaulting you), I hope you consult a criminal lawyer before your hearing. The lawyer might cost you $2,000 more or less, but it beats having a conviction for assault on you record when you apply for jobs. As it is you will have an arrest record to report.

rrjjgg

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28035 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 1:20 PM
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I think it's fair to assume that Pooperscooper (what a great name and so approriate for NY) understands the difference between these situations. However, there's another difference that's telling, and that is that the one with a human in the ER is far more heavily regulated than the other and therefore the price of a tentanus shot is comparatively higher in that case than would be if the regulatory regimes were the same in both scenarios. That was the thrust of my initial posts of 9/2.

rrjigg notes,

While you'll probably win with self-defense(although you did fight back after he stopped assaulting you), I hope you consult a criminal lawyer before your hearing. The lawyer might cost you $2,000 more or less, but it beats having a conviction for assault on you record when you apply for jobs. As it is you will have an arrest record to report.


Thanks for the hint. I've run this by a lawyer friend who does some criminal work and am awaiting his reply.
When I went down to 346 Broadway to scope out the court-joint, the police at the entrance laid out some scenarios and told me I'd either have it dismissed or dismissed on condition of being "good" for six months, i.e., no more arrests.
Admittedly, they probably weren't lawyers, but I assume my situation is, uh, so cut and dry that they've seen this play out a million times and could probably recite the judges words.

As for my employment situation, I'm in sales in the NYC local/regional courier industry, below the level of a real company like FedEx.
IOW deals including employment deals are done at strip clubs fueled with beer, etc., if you get my drift. (Seriously--although I wouldn't go there, the CEO of my firm did hire a manager after a night out at one in 1997. They guy turned out to be a loser and was fired in early 2000 after starting his own firm on the side and approaching one of my clients with a lower price. The client called me and he was history the next day. I was told to stay out the next day as he was fired.)
The mob also controls one of the bigger firms. Another firm is well known for giving cash kickbacks to mailroom managers in publishing houses. So employment is "fluid" in the industry and arrest records are probably viewed more like badges of honor than as problems. My firm is the only one I know that doesn't do kickbacks. I don't even like taking clients out to lunch and don't do it.

(I called a reporter at the WSJ once to try to interest him in investigating the courier/trucking industry in NYC for a front-page story--and it would be a blockbuster, given that half the large mailrooms are run by managers taking some form of kickback; but declined when I told him I had no interest in having my name appear in it. The 50% figure came from the mgr at a large, well-known publishing house--in correcting my 30% supposition--who I suspect is himself taking kickbacks.)

VS

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Author: wbadgergirl One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28036 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 6:57 PM
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Wow, I feel that many of the problems with the health service in America is that too many people feel entitled to free services. You took a ride in an ambulance and wasted the time of those medical professionals for a non-emergency trip. In my mind you should be charged a higher amount for that ride. Those resources should only be used in true emergencies. I am sure they asked you if you needed to go in the ambulance. It was your responsibility to ask about a fee up front if you do not want to incur the expense.

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Author: wbadgergirl One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28037 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 7:34 PM
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Someone is going to be more brutal to him then kicking him in the head when he is already down in a busy restaurant where others should have been able to jump in and supress him if he was to get up and attack? I am more and more amazed the further I get in this thread.

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28038 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 7:51 PM
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Wow, I feel that many of the problems with the health service in America is that too many people feel entitled to free services. You took a ride in an ambulance and wasted the time of those medical professionals for a non-emergency trip. In my mind you should be charged a higher amount for that ride. Those resources should only be used in true emergencies. I am sure they asked you if you needed to go in the ambulance. It was your responsibility to ask about a fee up front if you do not want to incur the expense.

I have no problem paying for a service rendered when I know up front what the price is and am given the choice to accept it or not, and to find my own alternative if I can. The problem is I thought it was paid for by the taxpayers, just like the police's services. I didn't mention earlier but will now that I rode in an ambulance to the same ER in Jan. 1996 after breaking my ankle. I received no bill at that time.
(I slipped on a patch of ice on a NY City sidewalk. The same lawyer I've been talking to said to forget about suing NY City.)

The cop I saw on the street expressed amazement that I received a bill.
He too thought it was a taxpayer-paid function, just like his services.

They actually didn't ask me if I needed an ambulance; when I asked the cop about this, he said I would have had no choice in the matter in any event--it was that ambulance or no trip. The reason according to him had to do with liability--what if I had taken a taxi, which had then been involved in an accident. Perhaps I could have sued the city.
Of course, it overlooks the facts that (1) I could have signed a release absolving them of liability, were one available; and (2) according to my lawyer, they have "sovereign immunity" and basically can't be sued, at least successfully, save under exceptional circumstances, like when a group of cops blew away a black guy with 41 bullets to his body a few years ago. NY's finest at work. Their slogan by the way is "Courtesy, Professionalism, Respect." All three are a crock in NY.

There is certainly no reason why I should pay more than someone who requires, say, a blood transfusion or other drastic medical attention on the way to the ER. Indeed, in the real world of the free market I would pay less. We don't live in such a world however, unfortunately.

VS

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28039 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/8/2006 8:04 PM
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Someone is going to be more brutal to him then kicking him in the head when he is already down in a busy restaurant where others should have been able to jump in and supress him if he was to get up and attack? I am more and more amazed the further I get in this thread.

Should have been able?
Like the people who came to the aid of Kitty Genovese in 1964?
Uh huh.
The question is not should they have but would they have? Doubtful.

If you had been there would you have rushed over and suppressed the guy--after seeing blood literally covering eight inches of the top of my left arm and hand and dabbed across my left pant leg like a Pollock painting, and dripping on to the floor?
You had to be there to experience the scene and you had to be me to experience the absolute terror and seething rage I felt at that moment. That's why sano, who's obviously never been assaulted, and others on this board are so out to lunch.

Unless you've been the victim of a similarly violent assault, I don't think you can make a valid judgement.
Fortunately, I think judges understand this, even NY judges. Probably not San Francisco (or land of fruits 'n nuts) judges though.

VS

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Author: Mexmeme Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28040 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/9/2006 11:46 AM
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I'll admit that I came to this board from the recommendation, but I got an eyefull. After reading the first post, I thought to myself that maybe the poster should have asked the cost, as I would have done. In most places there are clinics where you can get seen by doctors at any hour of the day or night, but much less costly.

Secondly, when the poster let us know just what had happened, it sure made me glad I live in Indiana and not NYC. That poster would surely have been taken to jail here--we do not let things like this happen, whereas in larger cities you can get away with punching a derelict and then kicking him in the head when he is down. Here you both spend a night in jail. The next week in the paper, there is your name and the details of your "crime". The whole town knows. Gosh, you got off cheeply it seems to me.

just MEME


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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28041 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/9/2006 1:53 PM
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From an earlier post:

I just assumed the ambulance was a New York City police function, paid for by me and other local taxpayers. The two officers who escorted me to the hospital never mentioned I'd get a bill for about $520 for the short ride. [Apparently, they wouldn't have known about the cost any more than the cop I related the story to on the street did.]

I didn't have the clinic option at that point, even if there had been one available. The standard operating procedure for a knife wound is probably the ER. It's a one-size-fits-all approach, and might be part of a contract.

From an early post in the thread:

Btw, the officer who first questioned me told me I might spend the weekend in jail! This happened on a Sat. at 2:30 PM.

I actually did spend about 20 minutes in the slammer, which is in the back end of the police station, as did the perp.
They released me to go to the ER, which was the more important reason that I wanted to go there. I saw it as an immediate way out vs. the alternative of getting out possibly more than a day later. Jail isn't fun.
The perp appeared before a judge that evening. I went back to the restaurant to see if the cops had interviewed anyone, which they hadn't done, despite telling me they would.

I take issue with your description of my assailant as a derelict, if by that you mean someone who is completely out of it, and who just attacked me at random. He was a lot more coherent than that. I'd call him a moral lowlife and a thug but not a derelict. It's not like he was drunk and in the gutter, which is my defn. of a derelict.

I don't see much difference between your description and the way I was treated.

VS

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Author: tenshuma Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28042 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/9/2006 8:03 PM
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Annnnnnnyways,

Here goes:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2006/09/09/ap3004726.html

First, General Motors. Then gun control, followed by George W. Bush. Now rabble-rousing filmmaker Michael Moore has turned his irreverent camera on health care in America.

"Sicko," Moore's dissection of the health care system, promises to be another hilarious documentary romp, based on excerpts he showed Friday night at the Toronto International Film Festival.


Not really related perhaps. Don't think he's going to talk about how expensive ambulances are, but you never know.

-Ten

PS Have fun bashing, guys ;)



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Author: Lurker1999 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28043 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 3:19 AM
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I came on this thread as a "hot topic" and after reading the first post I expected a lengthy discussion about how to minimize the cost of pre-hospital treatment. However, it seems we've gone a little off-course.

You clearly seem to have decided that you will use violence when you deem it necessary. It may be better for you to think things through in advance and perhaps take some formal training on exactly when and where you may apply what degree of violence.

The following page addresses knife fighting but you can probably take some good lessons from it as well:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html

I looked at his late 50s and obviously very out-of-shape carcass (it turned out he's on med. for diabetes and high blood pressure), did a nanosecond mental calc., and decked him with a right hook. Then for good measure and because he had what the cops described as a knife, I walked two steps and kicked him in the head when he tried to get up.

At this point in the game you've become the aggressor in my book and if its a jury of your peers you better make sure you don't come off sounding that way.

You may also wish to look into some more formal training on the subject. Again, this is more along the lethal force lines but in the right context hands and feet can also be considered lethal force:

http://www.ayoob.com/

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Author: herl888 One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28044 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 4:24 AM
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Excuse my small town ignorance (we Texacans don't want to ever imply that we are as smart as you New Yawk folks), but what the hell is a DS?

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Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28045 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 5:22 AM
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Welcome, herl888! The post you replied to was posted by Kristi - she's a Michican, not a Nu Yawker! DS was shorthand for Dear Son, I believe...


OleDoc (and I had promised myself not to post on this stupid thread!!!)



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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28046 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 11:03 AM
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At this point in the game [after the head kick] you've become the aggressor in my book and if its a jury of your peers you better make sure you don't come off sounding that way.

No way, no how, not in libertarian theory.

See Murray N. Rothbard's great book, _The Ethics of Liberty_, which is webbed here:

http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/ethics.asp

See chap. 13, "Punishment and Proportionality," where Rothbard enunciates what I call the "2 for 1" theory. If Smith steals $15,000 from Jones, he owes Jones $30,000--$15,000 for restitution plus $15,000 in punishment.

So when I kicked my attacker, I was abiding by the libertarian 2 for 1 theory. First, I smashed him to rejoin his knife stab of me, then I kicked him for punishment, as well as to send him a message about what would happen if he tried it again. (I would have made his face make a bloody pulp look good by comparison.) Neither blow of mine caused as much injury to him (unless you count his pride) as his knife wound caused me.
He didn't have to go to the ER, whereas I did.

The fact that a trained judge might (or might not?) disagree with me just shows that the law is an ass, especially SF law.

Thanks for the links, which I'll have a look at. In the meantime, you can cruise over to the libertarian board and check out the truth about the Swedish welfare state.

VS

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Author: medgoddess Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28047 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 11:30 AM
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Hey OleDoc,
You're right about DS, but I've moved in the 8 years since we've been on this board...I'm an Ohioan now! And I've never been to NYC, although I have visited the state of NY.
:)

Kristi
lost in the corn and soy fields...this is truly small town America. Friday night, everyone's at the game. The only thing I miss is a nearby Target...the closest one is 50 minutes away in Toledo.

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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28048 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 2:14 PM
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http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html

A couple of thoughts about this link posted by Lurker1999.
It makes some good points, especially about the significance of knife wound patterns for self-defense claims.
In my case, had I attempted to hit the guy first and if his shot at me were in self-defense, as I think he claimed to the police (consistent with the link), he would have punctured the bottom of my left arm, not the top of it. As a righty, when I hit someone, I've got my left arm protecting my lower left jaw and the bottom of my left arm is exposed to attack. Instead, he hit the top of my left arm, the part that would have been facing me had I attempted to hit him first.

More importantly, I've got a witness that saw him hit me first, which should be enough to prevail, I assume. The cops were completely derelict in not doing their duty when they failed to interview witnesses in the first minutes after their arrival on the scene.
Again, NY's finest being the professionals they are. Not.

The link skirts the issue of whether an armed homeowner has the right to shoot an intruder, and under what conditions he could (or could not) do this. Certainly under some conditions at least, homeowners do have such a right.

VS


VS

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Author: Thurst Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28049 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 2:40 PM
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Your initial response may have been justified. Kicking him in the face will probably be viewed about the same as taking his knife and cutting his throat.

I'm betting you will see some jail time...

Sooner or later you will have some time to adjust your thinking.

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Author: sheila727 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28050 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 2:43 PM
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At this point in the game [after the head kick] you've become the aggressor in my book and if its a jury of your peers you better make sure you don't come off sounding that way.
-------------------------------------------

No way, no how, not in libertarian theory.



This man doesn't think for himself. He lives by the dictates of a particular theory rather than judging individual situations on their specific conditions and context. He also takes great pride in arranging and justifying his thoughts, decisions, actions by this exalted theory.

And when you look back at this statement of his in an early post on this thread (that I still cannot believe was chosen as a Hot Topic):

The head kick was just like the movies and pretty cool.

What can you expect? Not a guy who's going to step back and take an honest, somewhat objective look at himself.


sheila





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Author: Lurker1999 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28051 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 4:22 PM
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No way, no how, not in libertarian theory.

You can follow whatever theory you would like. All that matters in the end is the theory the prosecutor, judge and jury follow.

So when I kicked my attacker, I was abiding by the libertarian 2 for 1 theory. First, I smashed him to rejoin his knife stab of me, then I kicked him for punishment, as well as to send him a message about what would happen if he tried it again.

And again, this is no longer self-defense.

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Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28052 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 4:37 PM
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He didn't have to go to the ER, whereas I did.

I thought you were hauled off to the pokey first and the ER ruse was a smart way of cutting down on your jail time.

Since the point of your initial post was to complain about the cost of the ambulance....which was almost equal to the cost of your treatment.....how seriously did the ER personel judge your injuries to be? I mean....there's "going to the ER" for a life threatening problem and "going to the ER" where you get to hang out with folk with a splinter in their foot for a few hours.


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Author: HDbaloo Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28053 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 5:00 PM
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As with all things that we as a culture must bare one of them is highly trained professoinals on call 24hrs a day 365 days a year. Do they get paid if they aren't actually 'working' you bet. The reason that the ambulance costs so much is that price 'consciouese'people such as yourself choos not to pay thier part of the bill so that the rest of us wind up toting the bill for your miserly ways[cheap] Does this mean that I need anger management classes? No its simple arithetic if you don't those who carry this country along will continue to subsidse cheapos like yopu and your lawyer friend who 'knows' better. Ya right you tight wad

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Author: Ga1Dawg Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28054 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/10/2006 7:30 PM
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So when I kicked my attacker, I was abiding by the libertarian 2 for 1 theory. First, I smashed him to rejoin his knife stab of me, then I kicked him for punishment.........
******************************************************
I suggest you tell the judge and jury about your “libertarian 2 for 1 theory”

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Author: herl888 One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28055 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/11/2006 12:24 AM
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If this had happened in Texas where many of us are licensed to carry, as soon as he displayed his brass knuckles (knife), you could have just shot the scum bag, have someone call the coroner, then received your medal from the Mayor in front of City Hall.

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Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28056 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/11/2006 2:43 AM
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if you wanted to roll all the costs of keeping a horse at a commercial barn

$250 a month here, with an enclosed area to ride it in circles during business hours. The horse is fed and daily penned outside in condusive weather with congenial horses, or alone. Plus there is an observation area where the owners can sit with cable tv and watch there prodigy ride in circles cuz they can afford it.

I know the owners of the place I describe. I honestly don't care much for horse people cus the are mostly snobish. In my experiance. Or just right cuz they say so. Seams to be a common accurance with those that have money. But not all, I know some with much that are ok, not many, and it's usually the woman that looks down the nose. Guys are different,,,,,hey! How fast does that mazuratie go? It's the only one I have ever seen! Bla, bla, and more, while the wife looks at me as if I am diesed. Cuz I don't look like them or care.

....into the cost of that shot you'd get something of an idea)<i/>

Not at all. Just walk into any farm supply place and the dope is dirt cheep and they have no restrictions on selling to you. Cuz that is an arena where they don't get sued a zillion times daily. Hello! Yea, you know, I am just pointing out the fact.

you can always euthanise the horse and you won't sue yourself.

I remember somebody that ran over there own kid in the driveway and sued the homeowners insurance and wone! An, an, Mickey D's coffie is just to hot! Dosent matter if you take a cup and drive away with it in a foam cup in yer croth then spill it in the place YOU put it, $3,000,000 I think it was. Just so you know,,,brewed coffie if stored at less than 180 degrees becomes bitter, (yes, I have experiance) the aroma which is %90 of taste even inside the esofigus decays rapidly at lessor temps. Course that shifts if you load it up with cream, sugar, or whatever.


Can you see a difference yet???

No. Some people just blame everything on whomever has the big pockets, and sue. We all pay. C coy: evil big pharma! Get em! (An dainged if having a glass of water nearby ever satisfyed me thirst as if it were part of me, I think the table it sets on concurs as it apparently has no water damage, the glass (quartz) shows no signs of accumilitating molicules of or sub molicules of water in any form) ( OK! :) the h2o may harminize with congeional participants in some quantum werideness but in my reality?,,,,Na,)

(course I did look at it, but so did the water pump.)

Sometimes I think this computer linkes me into strong enthrophy, but I can't know that cuz I am me thru it. In my reality.

Your end if the link is enthropic it may have an entirely different view feeding back. But I would not know.

The point is that the prespective you view things from is what you made it to be with all supporting nuances or sciences of the day, or just greed or all the other 'feelinges' which support your will of this moment. Which may or may not be accurate at the time accurance.

Burp,

Chris


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Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28057 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 12:11 AM
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Weird. I had to get a tetanus shot 2 years ago after two very bad cuts from falling down the subway stairs. I elected not to go to the ER. Saw my doctor on Monday. She gave me my tetanus shot. And it didn't add much to the standard fee for a visit.

Irene needed one for the gov. County health, $12.50,,walk in 12 to 4.

Chris


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Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28058 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 12:54 AM
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ERs are intended for the use of folk who're taken suddenly and seriously ill or who suffer serious accidents requiring major interventions.

While you and your hedge fund buddy were sitting thinking how valuable your time was (while continuing to sit and wait) what do you imagine was happening behind the scenes

My buddy reacted to some otc dope and went to emergancy. They marched him straight in. He said someone else was first. They said NO you are! Later he was told he would have been dead within the hour.....These people are good. And are short changed to the point of shutting down, just ask southern california where they are flouded with illegal mexicans whom do not pay.

I think vs should have killed the guy and been treeted free with all charges rubber stamped dismissed.

If someone brass knuckled me in that circomestance one of us would be dead in about a second,,,, and deserve a thank you from the poliece.

If anyone wached the path to 9/11 this non use of force is going to kill us all cuz the rotten people have all the rights and everybody's afraid to do what's right for fear of political bs.

chris

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Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28059 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 1:31 AM
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Doing what you did courted theft.

Some people steal, others do not. Get rid of thieves and there will be no theft. I wish vs would have killed the guy. Here I have no locks on the doors and the gurage door can stay open for days with everything in place. I don't like your place, here people act properly and understand right or wrong. Heh, in my few sqare miles. Hearing a gunshot from time to time makes an orderly polite society.

Do you really think that in the old west movies the cop actually faced the bad guys in the street alone while the townsfolk hid in fear? With guns? Knowing who was who? And doing nothing?

I don't.

Chris

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Author: Primm69 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28060 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 5:59 AM
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Otherwise, prepare yourself for sticker shock if you're ever so unfortunate as to need a short ride in an ambulance.


See, here's the thing.

You didn't NEED a ride in an ambulance. You chose this means of transport over your two options, catching a cab or walking.

Meanwhile you were potentially depriving someone with a life-threatening emergency the skills and resources of the ambulance officers. For you, the facilities of the ambulance were inconsequential. For someone else, they may mean the difference between life and death.

Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources. But the bill you got from the ambulance cannot be analysed using mere economics. The ambulance bill is not simply a matter of supply and demand. There is also the element of deterrence - the city don't want you to use the ambulance in the circumstances you were in, they would rather allocate that scarce resource to someone in greater need. So if they charge you $520, next time you may think twice before you call on them unless your life or health are severely threatened.

Primm
*health care professional and economics major*

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Author: Lurker1999 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28061 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 11:20 AM
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If someone brass knuckled me in that circomestance one of us would be dead in about a second,,,, and deserve a thank you from the poliece.

If anyone wached the path to 9/11 this non use of force is going to kill us all cuz the rotten people have all the rights and everybody's afraid to do what's right for fear of political bs.


I think you'd also do well to read the lethal force links I mentioned above if that's your planned response.

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Author: taxisvs Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28064 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 6:49 PM
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VS,
Sorry to hear about your situation. However, I do know first hand about why the huge bill you received. First of all, you were transported to the hospital by a private ambulance. Private ambulances are out there not mainly out there to take care of your illness/injury/needs although they certainly do that. They are in the business to MAKE MONEY, bottom line! They do not care whether you have a cut toe or a heart attack, if they transport you, you will pay, sometimes ala carte. I've known companies to charge a flat rate per call and add on fees of: oxygen use, bandages, mileage, advanced life support calls vs basic life support calls, and perhaps a fee depending on the time of day or night the run is made.
I don't know what companies service your area, whether you have a public emergency system, ie a FIRE based emergency system that handles the 911 calls and transported by a private ambulance or if they provide their own. Or if you have a third party municipal system, where the state contracts the city and county to provide the service or contract a private ambulance company to handle the 911 calls. These are probably going to be cheaper because the state is funding the service and all services/equipment provided is usually all inclusive for a flat fee.
People all over the US abuse the 911 service, be it police or fire or ems. Calls for cut toes, sick for a week and not seeing their doctor, re-filling prescriptions or other minor calls tax the emergency system and keep that ambulance out of service for a more serious call, like heart attacks, strokes, cardiac/renal/respiratory failure, drownings...etc that may occur in that particular area. Depending on the area involved it may take another ambulance an hour or more to get to that critically ill/injured patient.
The biggest reason for the huge fees is that the INSURANCE COMPANIES are now limiting what they will cover and what they deem an emergency. So the less they cover, the more you will cover. They are only in it or the money. So yes knowledge is key! And yes sometimes I do feel like a taxisvs.

TS

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28065 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 8:54 PM
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They are in the business to MAKE MONEY, bottom line!

So, who isn't?

They are only in it or the money.

Me too!

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Author: bigcaat Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28066 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/12/2006 9:30 PM
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I suffered a non-life threatening and not even particularly serious injury Aug. 12 and was taken by an ambulance...

If it wasn't serious, why would you take an ambulance? Just because you thought the taxpayers would pay for it?

If you didn't know that ambulances were expensive, you must be living under a rock.

Caat

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Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28080 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/14/2006 12:13 AM
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I think you'd also do well to read the lethal force links I mentioned above if that's your planned response.

What links? And you have to be there to make that decision. Conceal carry laws are pretty good here, I don't pack yet. But I do have some long guns.

I have no documented training....Gee, all I did was hit him in the nose! Why is he dead? He was moving, acting crazy, and I swung wild to protect myself.

I personally don't give a rats rear about laws that protect criminals. All this touchy feely stuff makes us not win wars, gets people killed, and protects people that will do you or yours or others harm. Or burn your car, gee, the french were so happy to have it go back to the normal 90 a day.

Anybody that comes on my place and trys to burn my car is going to get dead. An all the other people that didn't get burned cars after that should thank me, not extrapolate rights into what they never should have been.


Chris

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Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28082 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/14/2006 12:36 AM
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They are in the business to MAKE MONEY, bottom line!

Do you eat grass sleep under a rock and work for free?

and add on fees of: oxygen use, bandages, mileage, advanced life support calls vs basic life support calls, and perhaps a fee depending on the time of day or night the run is made.

Ya! That stuff does cost money! And paying more to get people to work on holidays etc is something I conseder normal. I spect you do also if that is demanded of you....... Don't you?????.....Well???

Chris

I know some of those people and thank god they do what they do. I don't want the job.

What would your beef be if there were no health system?????? .... Something like WE NEED ONE! Grow up! Your life is good!

I see your new. Welcome! :)


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Author: DanTheMailMan Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28116 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/16/2006 4:13 PM
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REMEMBER ?? THE HOSPITALS ARE GETTING LIKE THE GOVERNMENT . REMEMBER THE 800.00 THEY PAY FOR A HAMMER ????

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Author: mreedpgh One star, 50 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28123 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/21/2006 11:18 AM
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Do you carry a folio of such 'release forms' to cover all the various real life situations a libertarian constantly encounters?

Hi Sano,

Actually, in PA all ambulances carry such forms, and most/all of the services I'm nationally aware of stock them. In most cases, the patient signs the form and the ambulance heads on its merry way. In some emergent cases, such as altered state of consciousness, both ALS and BLS teams can transport the patient without consent, but in most of those they are required to get authorization from medic command.

--Mike

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28124 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/21/2006 2:53 PM
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Hi Mike,

I hadn't intended to further participate in this thread. That a person would get into such a protracted situation and think it wise allocation of time and effort is absolutely beyond me.

Actually, in PA all ambulances carry such forms, and most/all of the services I'm nationally aware of stock them.

Yes. I'm aware of this.. all emergency responders i know do the same.... but the question was, does the hip libertarian himself carry generic liability release forms so that as he goes about his day demanding lowest cost services, he can provide liability wavers to those entities with whom he desires transactions? Example, cops using a taxi as a substitute for an ambulance.

Of course it is as absurd a Q as is the libertarians expectation that businesses should offer a special libertarian rate contingent on the libertarian issueing a liability waver to the merchant.

Now I'm really done with this thread.

sano



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Author: lesolini Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28129 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/25/2006 10:42 AM
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I suffered a non-life threatening and not even particularly serious injury Aug. 12 and was taken by an ambulance from the local police station (where I happened to have been near) to the ER at Beth Israel Hospital a dozen blocks away for a tetanus shot. The bill from Beth Israel was something like $637, which was surprising considering the clerk at the desk told me tetanus shots go for $675.

Last week I was shocked to receive a bill from a private ambulance firm in Buffalo, NY, I had never heard of before. I just assumed the ambulance was a New York City police function, paid for by me and other local taxpayers. The two officers who escorted me to the hospital never mentioned I'd get a bill for about $520 for the short ride. I could have easily walked or taken a cab and would have if I had been told the price of the ambulance trip.
I haven't read the whole post but the tetanus shot caught my attention.
The only chances you have of getting tetanus are from direct contact with farm animals that have it, which is very rare these days, or, far more probably, from the tetanus shot itself. It is just another way for the hospital to make a quick buck at your risk and expense. Refuse the shot!


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Author: ValueSnark Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 28136 of 40756
Subject: Re: A Small Example of Medical Costs Date: 9/26/2006 1:50 PM
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The only chances you have of getting tetanus are from direct contact with farm animals that have it, which is very rare these days, or, far more probably, from the tetanus shot itself. It is just another way for the hospital to make a quick buck at your risk and expense. Refuse the shot!

This sounds like an urban, or rather rural, legend.

The builder of the Brooklyn Bridge died of tetanus after gashing his foot on a metal beam.

Here are two links that refute the tetanus-from-farm-animals-only (or mainly) theory:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8323232&dopt=Abstract

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1123386

VS

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