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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 457492  
Subject: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 5:41 PM
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Gaza conflict: Israel vows to intensify offensive

I suspect that there are some in Israel who believe that this is 2009 all over again. It is not.

The technology of insurgency has changed.

The desperation of the Palestinians is greater.

The border between Egypt is and the Palestine territory is controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot.

I could be wrong, but Hamas may be baiting Israel into an all out campaign against the Palestinians. If so the outcome will be one of two things, neither the status quo.

An opinion piece in Aljazeera

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/20121114135...

In the long-term, this set of circumstances can ultimately only lead to one of two things - the creation of a formalised system of unequal separation where Palestinians live in isolated cantonments without basic rights and freedoms or the creation of a bi-national state with equal rights for all citizens regardless of religion and ethnicity.

Supporters of Israel today characterise, with some degree of justice, the label of "Apartheid" as being hyperbolic and inaccurate. However, if Palestinians are given neither equal rights within Israel nor a viable state of their own, this label will become undeniably accurate - and the latter outcome appears to have become an impossibility given changing political mores within the country.


This will not be a pleasant thing to watch, further many sacred cows will be gored in the process. Like any change, it is fraught with opportunity and risk.

In the next few months one of two things will happen:

1. The Israeli army will be suckered into a brutal counter insurgency that learned its lessons from the Iraq war, or

2. It will crush the Palestinian people like the plains Indians were crushed by the U.S. Military.

In the former case, there will be political upheaval in Israel.

In the latter, Israel and its allies will come to a conclusion similar to what England came to in India. However, Israel cannot pull out and go home, they will have to assimilate the Palestinians.

In either case, life will be lost, and life will be different for the survivors.

Qazulight
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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408732 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 6:04 PM
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An opinion piece in Aljazeera

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/20121114135......

In the long-term, this set of circumstances can ultimately only lead to one of two things - the creation of a formalised system of unequal separation where Palestinians live in isolated cantonments without basic rights and freedoms or the creation of a bi-national state with equal rights for all citizens regardless of religion and ethnicity.

Supporters of Israel today characterise, with some degree of justice, the label of "Apartheid" as being hyperbolic and inaccurate. However, if Palestinians are given neither equal rights within Israel nor a viable state of their own, this label will become undeniably accurate - and the latter outcome appears to have become an impossibility given changing political mores within the country.


In actual fact, quite a lot of Palestinians live comfortably in Israel not merely as full citizens with all the rights of Israelis, but as privileged citizens excused from some of the obligations of Israelis. There are Palestinian Moslems in the Israeli government.

There is no area in the Middle East where the average Palestinian is better off than in Israel.

The Palestinians who are being kept separate are the ones who demanded separation from the Jews. They got separation. They got permanent "refugee" status. And from 1948 through 1967 that separation was enforced by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt - countries that overran the Palestinian homeland in 1948, and from the end of that war to 1967 (when they lost control of it and didn't get it back at the peace table) would not permit the Palestinians who had left their homes in that land before the 1948 war to return to them.

Unfortunately, some of that latter group also favor a war of extermination. And they control most of the political and social structure of Palestinians outside Israel. If they keep it up, eventually they are going to get a war of extermination - but I think they have the wrong idea about who will be exterminated.

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408733 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 6:19 PM
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This is an extremely dangerous situation, potentially made even more dangerous by the support of terrorist Hamas by Egyptian Islamists who want to scrap the historic Israel-Egypt peace treaty.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/world/middleeast/israel-ga...

Given the instability in the Middle East since the Arab Spring (including the Syrian civil war), it's hard to predict what will happen. None of it good.

Wendy

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408737 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 8:21 PM
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In the next few months one of two things will happen:

1. The Israeli army will be suckered into a brutal counter insurgency that learned its lessons from the Iraq war, or

2. It will crush the Palestinian people like the plains Indians were crushed by the U.S. Military.

IMO, both will happen. The Israelis will give an ultimatum. Either Gaza fixes the problem or Gaza will no longer exist as an area separate from Israel. Current residents of Gaza get shipped to Egypt and let them deal with their follower population. Israel suddenly has more space for expansion--and they will be able to reasonably state they will NEVER give it back. That is what happened historically, so it is nothing new.

It will also be a stark notice of the potential consequences to others.

Egypt has no say because the problem is (supposedly) in Gaza. Of course, the reality is most of the missile and bomb supplies come through Egypt. Cut that off and the problem with Israel mostly goes away. Developing jobs and the economy in Gaza benefits everyone--unless the objective is to create ongoing problems and a source of terrorists into the ongoing future. Where is the investment by Saudi Arabia, etc?


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Author: DrBob2 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408742 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 8:56 PM
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I suspect that there are some in Israel who believe that this is 2009 all over again. It is not.

The goal is the same, to destroy the missile stockpiles and launching sites in Gaza. Two things have changed:
- there are now longer range missiles, so Israel must push deeper into Gaza
- Egypt is not likely to close the Egypt-Gaza border as they did four years ago. Israel will need to maintain a buffer zone in the south to minimize contact with any Egyptian forces.

DB2

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408745 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 9:10 PM
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There is little chance of a single state where all of the Palestinians and all of the Jews live together in harmony at this stage of the game. Explaining why this is true would take some time, so just take my word for it.

There is hope of a two state solution but geography creates a challenge. A "split" Palestinian state with the (very small) area of Gaza on the sea and the larger balance landlocked between Israel and Jordan presents both administrative and logistical challenges (especially with the split governments currently in power.

As has been pointed out, Israel has a large Arab (Palestinian) population which has been (more or less) assimilated. In addition, there are Palestinians which came along with the territory of Old Jerusalem when it was annexed (these are not nearly as assimilated).

The rest of the Palestinian territories, while theoretically under Israeli administration, are separated from Israel by walls, fences and guard posts and there is little mixing in either direction. There are political complications caused by Israeli "settlements" which have been built in the Palestinian areas (without desiring a discussion of these, I will admit that I am opposed to this practice) and these will have to be addressed in the context of any formal decision.

Any separation of the states will also have to take into account the aquifer locations as, without water, this is a very hard neighborhood to survive in.

To put the size of the Gaza Strip in perspective, it is a roughly rectangular piece of land about 25 miles by about 5 miles.

According to the 1997 census, Gaza had an overwhelmingly young population with more than half being between the ages of infancy to 19 (60.8%). About 28.8% were between the ages of 20 to 44, 7.7% between 45 and 64, and 3.9% were over the age of 64.

A significant number of Gaza's pre-1948 residents were Egyptians or their descendants who had fled political turmoil in Muhammad Ali's Egypt. A massive influx of Palestinian refugees swelled Gaza's population after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. By 1967, the population had grown to about six times its 1948 size. In 1997, 51.8% of Gaza's inhabitants were refugees or their descendants. The city's population has continued to increase since that time to 449,221 in 2009, making it the largest city in the Palestinian territories. Gaza has one of the highest overall growth rates and population densities in the world: 9,982.69/km² (26,424.76/mi²).

Jeff

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Author: steve203 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408746 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 9:18 PM
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Jeff sure picked a good time for his trip. Now floods in Venice, artillery duels in the Golan and rockets in the south of Israel. What next?

Steve

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408747 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 9:28 PM
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Sorry, you can only recommend a post to the Best of once.

There is no area in the Middle East where the average Palestinian is better off than in Israel.

The Palestinians who are being kept separate are the ones who demanded separation from the Jews.


Palestinian leaders are in the same position as union leaders i.e. on the outside looking in. Their only path to power is to agitate.

A look at the Palestinian leadership roll call is hardly reassuring if you're looking for experienced politicians. Looks more like a list of poets and front men backed by a shadowy cabal of greedy/ambitious local potentates, imams and self proclaimed sheikhs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinians

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408749 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 10:01 PM
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Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.
You will be able to recommend 7 more posts today. (explain this)


There is little chance of a single state where all of the Palestinians and all of the Jews live together in harmony at this stage of the game.

You will never make it as a speaker in the UN. ;-)

As I recall the last time Israel made a military incursion into Gaza a lot of buildings got damaged or destroyed. I saw photos of militant representatives standing on street corners passing out US$100 bills to people afterwards. (Since they presumably got the cash from oil states in the region the cost to the militants was negligible.) Great PR for them.

Iirc the last time Israel wasted a lot of artillery shells trying to blast buildings. If they've learned the next time they'll just shove a few large packages of explosives in the front door and let gravity take the whole buildings down terrorists and all.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408750 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 10:03 PM
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Jeff sure picked a good time for his trip. Now floods in Venice, artillery duels in the Golan and rockets in the south of Israel. What next?

Floods in NYC?

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408753 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 10:38 PM
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Preview of next trip:

Visits to Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece (somehow Ireland got left off the list)

Visit to Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan

Dropping in to "the Gulf": Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Oman (probably be dodging pirates and watching for Israel/Iran thing)

Of course, there will be more benign places as well (heading as far East as Komodo to see the dragons).

Jeff
Apres moi, le deluge

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408754 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 10:45 PM
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Two things have changed:

The Israelis think two things have changed, four have changed. The other two are:

The Palestinians no long believe they have anything to lose

and

The art of insurgency has been drastically improved.

Unless the Israeli army is brutal in ways that we have not seen in a generation, Gaza could turn into a killing field.

The Israeli army has a very good record, but even a complete defeat of Hamas militarily, could be a victory of the Palestinian people.

I suspect that this will be very interesting. I think it will be better to be here talking about, than there living it.

Cheers
Qazulight

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408757 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/16/2012 11:58 PM
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I would point out the obvious - simplicity of viewpoint is dangerous in this part of the world. The word "Arab", for example is used loosely to define all Arabic speakers from Morocco to Yemen, yet there are many ethnic groups (and even religions) which speak that language (actually, I would more accurately say read the language as the spoken tongue is so variant in accent that it is difficult for someone from Saudi Arabia to understand the spoken language of someone from Morocco.

Around 25 percent of Israeli Jews speak fluent Arabic (with a Palestinian accent) and an even larger percentage of Palestinians speak fluent Hebrew.

While Islam is the most prevalent religion amongst Palestinians, there is a large minority (especially on the West Bank of Christians).

There are also other ethnic groups in the area such as the Druze and the Samaritans (yes, they still exist) which have their own religions and cultures and in fact live comfortably within Israeli society.

I would recommend a thought experiment. Since, in the US, we have been subjected to the bias of news and propaganda for decades about Israel (most of it "not wrong" - even very right, but propaganda all the same) which makes it difficult (without living there) to wrap one's arms around the complexity of the issues, I would recommend concentrating on the last few decades of the History of Lebanon instead. This country ended up in a civil war with religious factions (some Christian, some Moslem), right wing vs. left wing factions, proxies for Israeli/Syrian interests, proxies for US/Soviet interests and tribal conflicts.

Most of us followed the challenges of Lebanon (still in play) from a distance and without personal passion. Taking that experience and overlaying it over Israel gives us both an idea of the complexity of this neighbor's issues as well as pointing out the dangers of some of the proposed scenarios to a "solution" to the millennium old conflict between the Israeli/Hebrew/Judean vs. Phoenician/Philistine/Palestinian (depending if you are speaking Greek, Anglicized Hebrew or Latin (as none of these are Arabic terms for this ethnic group). This sounds pessimistic - how can we expect to create a peaceful solution to a conflict this old. In fact, over much of that time (under the Ottoman Empire, for example), there was no conflict. It only came to flame up when the British took over the territory after WWI and promised both sides independence over more or less the same territory (they seem to have had a knack for this sort of thing as demonstrated in Cyprus, India/Pakistan and Ireland).

My prediction: There will be a two state solution with the borders more or less as they are right now. Gaza may likely go back to Egyptian administration. The Old City of Jerusalem will be under Israeli sovereignty, but the Temple Mount will be accessible and administered by Palestine with security supplied by Israel (this is more or less the status quo today). East Jerusalem outside the walls of the Old City will go to Palestine. The settlements on the West bank will be abandoned (and likely dismantled out of vengeance by their current occupants). The West Bank portion of Palestine would maintain close relations with Israel (for both economic and security reasons as they will be weak enough for other neighbors to pick on them and pragmatic accommodations will be made) as well as Jordan. Palestinians (we are not talking about those who have lived permanently in Israel, but of those in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere) will be allowed to work in Israel and visit Israel with a valid visa, but will not be permitted to take up residence in Israel. Some Palestinians will receive reparations for certain specific conditions, but not as a general rule. Israel will be required to make a certain amount of Jordan River water and certain aquifers available to the Palestinian state.

See - that was easy, wasn't it? :-)

Jeff

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Author: qazulight Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408758 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 12:05 AM
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See - that was easy, wasn't it? :-)

Jeff


There is only one cost. It will be paid for in blood.

I am afraid it will be more than we expect. It generally is.

:(

Qazulight

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408759 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 12:43 AM
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In the long-term, this set of circumstances can ultimately only lead to one of two things - the creation of a formalised system of unequal separation where Palestinians live in isolated cantonments without basic rights and freedoms or the creation of a bi-national state with equal rights for all citizens regardless of religion and ethnicity.

The second option is the one-state solution.

Despite Jeff's doubts, this is more likely than Israel abandoning the West Bank settlements.

I believe this is the only viable and ethical solution.

I'm sure there is no Arabic Israeli who would rather give up their citizenship and live in Gaza or the West Bank. I would imagine most of those living in the Occupied Territories would much prefer a life as an Israeli citizen.

Apartheid or Unity.

Peter

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408761 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 2:09 AM
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Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.

See - that was easy, wasn't it?

Sounds like a great plan, too bad it'll never be adopted.

Israel's very right to exist is disputed by many and the right of Jews to exist is disputed by some.

Years ago, at a pistol shooting match, I made some innocent statement that one guy interpreted as meaning I was Jewish. He turned toward me with a look on his face that said "Have I just lost a friend?" and asked if I was Jewish.

Without thinking I nonchalantly (and truthfully) replied "Not that I know of."

It was only later that realized the importance of that question to him. Jews can not survive if they depend on the laws of nations and the morality of men like they did in the 1930s.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408762 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 3:54 AM
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dd It was only later that realized the importance of that question to him. Jews can not survive if they depend on the laws of nations and the morality of men like they did in the 1930s.

Are you thinking that Jews in Israel are safer than Jews in the US?

Peter

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Author: solarae100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408797 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 6:06 PM
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It was only later that realized the importance of that question to him. Jews can not survive if they depend on the laws of nations and the morality of men like they did in the 1930s.

What? are you saying that a "race" cannot survive since there are racists unless the government protects them?

Edy...of course there are no such things as "races"

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408798 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 6:12 PM
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dd It was only later that realized the importance of that question to him. Jews can not survive if they depend on the laws of nations and the morality of men like they did in the 1930s.

Are you thinking that Jews in Israel are safer than Jews in the US?


Peter,
You don't deport 6 million people to concentration camps and kill them without it being noticed. Yet nothing was done.

Nations have their own agendas which is why no nation moved to help the European Jews in the 1930's and why the USA did nothing when China invaded Tibet.

Having a nation behind you has a lot of perks.

Do a search for the word "Jew" here:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007411

The British weren't any better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus

Jews in the United States are as safe as any other minority.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408800 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 6:20 PM
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dd Jews in the United States are as safe as any other minority.

Including white males, presumably.

There is no perfect safety for any person or any ethnic group. But if I wanted to destroy the Jewish group (which I don't), I would first induce them to all crowd together on one very small parcel of land.

Israel makes Jews proud and deservedly so. It also makes them more vulnerable.

Peter

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408803 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 7:01 PM
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What? are you saying that a "race" cannot survive since there are racists unless the government protects them?

Six million Jews can not answer that question for you.

Certainly no group can thrive without government protection. Look at the history of blacks in the south before the civil rights movement.

Surviving as slaves or share croppers or peasants is not thriving.

Why does the Jews having their own country upset you so?

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408805 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 7:09 PM
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Israel makes Jews proud and deservedly so. It also makes them more vulnerable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country

Note that civilian ownership of guns is forbidden or severely restricted in most of these countries. Likewise civil rights.

Desert ("Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box.") Dave

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408810 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 7:51 PM
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dd Note that civilian ownership of guns is forbidden or severely restricted in most of these countries.

That would include Israel.

TEL AVIV (JTA) -- First-time visitors to Israel might be taken aback to see groups of armed teenagers walking through a city plaza on a weeknight, or surprised to walk into a public bathroom and see an M-16 laying across the sinks as a soldier washes his face.

But guns are ubiquitous in Israel, where most 18-year-olds are drafted into the army after high school.

However, once those soldiers finish their service two or three years later, they are subject to civilian gun control regulations that are much stricter than American laws.

In fact, it’s pretty much impossible for civilians who live in Israel to acquire an arsenal of weaponry of the sort used by the alleged shooter in last week’s massacre in Aurora, Colo. James E. Holmes, who is accused of killing 12 people and wounding 58 in the Aurora movie theater, legally bought the firearms he used, according to reports, including a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic pistol and a 12-gauge shotgun. Leading up to the shooting, Holmes had bought thousands of bullets online.

In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk. And while political violence in Israel is all too common and gun violence is a growing problem, random shootings of strangers – like the Aurora massacre -- are virtually unheard-of here.

Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/24/3101546/despite-m...

Sound reasonable to me.

Peter

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408814 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 8:49 PM
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Peter,

In theory, you are absolutely correct. As you pointed out, most teenagers spend a couple of years in the military. What's missing is that most of them join the reserves. As members of the reserves, they are required to keep their service weapon (and entitled to own a sidearm). So the civilian gun laws are very strict, but there are few civilians who are not obligated to maintain a firearm.

That said, civilian gun violence is exceedingly rare. The entire population learns how to handle and respect firearms in high school.

Israel is not the Wild West, nor is it a dark street in Brooklyn. But it is a very small country (about the size of New Jersey, the southern half being a desert) towards which an awful lot of guns are pointed and its population take "manning the barricades" for granted as it happens for one reason or another every few years.

Jeff

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408816 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 9:11 PM
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But guns are ubiquitous in Israel, where most 18-year-olds are drafted into the army after high school.

Sound reasonable to me.

Me too.

"Remember, in Israel, it is not about personal defense, but rather, national self defense. If a terrorist kills one or two Israelis, there are dozens more armed Israelis within the area who WILL stop the attack quickly."
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1174742__ARCHIVED_THREAD___...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dm4Xx59f6NM/SsTyEwrf6rI/AAAAAAAADM...

http://picturesfromearth.com/travel/plog-content/thumbs/1/is...

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2m6ix5fSA1qz4f8fo1_500.jp...

http://www.brothersinarmsdesign.com/pic_poster/idf.jpg

No doubt the first thing you noticed was that the magazine is loaded with live rounds.
http://i55.tinypic.com/30ddl3r.jpg

Don't ya' just love blue eyes?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8BqjQ3bBqfw/RmrFxzKWq2I/AAAAAAAAAK...

Although I usually go through more than 50 rounds in a trip to the range. Guess I'd have to 'let' the government supply me with more during practice on the government firing range;-)

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408818 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 9:25 PM
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Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.
You will be able to recommend one more post today. (explain this)


So the civilian gun laws are very strict, but there are few civilians who are not obligated to maintain a firearm.

Sort of like the Swiss:

"All Swiss men are required to perform military service. Swiss women may choose to do voluntarily. You can only join the Swiss Armed Forces if you are a Swiss Citizen."

http://www.vtg.admin.ch/internet/vtg/en/home.html

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408822 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 11:16 PM
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In modern times there is a universal military service requirement for Israeli citizens that leaves most of them in the reserves of the Israel Defense Forces, authorized to carry and keep in their possession weapons during the periods when they are called back to the army.[20]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia

Jeff, can you give me a link to where it says that IDF reservists keep government-issued weapons at home?

Peter

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408824 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/17/2012 11:30 PM
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Dave, all of the photos show persons in uniform. Do IDF reservists wear uniforms at all times (whether or not they are on active duty)?

Peter

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408825 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/18/2012 12:03 AM
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This is what I am trying to say:

Can you give me a link to where it says that IDF reservists keep government-issued weapons at home WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ON ACTIVE DUTY?

Peter

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408829 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/18/2012 2:38 AM
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Dave, all of the photos show persons in uniform. Do IDF reservists wear uniforms at all times (whether or not they are on active duty)?

As I understand it when on duty they must have their weapons either with them or locked up in a safe place so you'll see many armed Israelis on the streets. I believe citizens on the borders routinely carry arms.

Why does it bother you so much that a country trusts its citizens to be armed?

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408833 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/18/2012 8:22 AM
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Can you give me a link to where it says that IDF reservists keep government-issued weapons at home WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ON ACTIVE DUTY?

Peter



Purely out of curiosity since you seem to have a hair up your butt about this, why would they advertise this information and why would it matter so much to you?

These are trained soldiers not some whacked out kid off his meds and able to buy assault rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammo at Wal-Mart?


**** absolutely not signed ****

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Author: OrmontUS Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408836 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/18/2012 9:51 AM
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Peter,

No one wears their uniform if they are in the reserves, but not on active duty (else the streets would look like a Boy Scout jamboree on steroids). Everyone who is in the reserves (which means a good part of the population)keeps a weapon at home and many own a side arm as well. All have been trained in their use. Many have children at home.

Gun accidents, armed robberies, gun related homicides and the like are so rare as to be virtually non-existent.

This is not said in support of any position about gun ownership in the US, but is just an observation that there is at least one modern country today where general gun ownership does not cause social, political or criminal challenges even close to what gun ownership causes in the US.

When I have visited Israel (the last time was a couple of weeks last summer), I have felt very safe and comfortable - even though I wasn't armed, it was comforting to know that many of the people walking alongside me were.

The mindset in that country is somewhat different than in the US. While the response time to missiles in the south of the country is keeping those living close to Gaza on edge, I suspect people in e beach, dodge into shelters as rockets approach and then walk back out onto the sand to bask some more in the sun. It's all a percentage game and the odds are that they won't be caught unaware "with their pants down".

Jeff

Jeff

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408839 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/18/2012 10:49 AM
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tim Purely out of curiosity since you seem to have a hair up your butt about this, why would they advertise this information and why would it matter so much to you?

I'm waiting for some info from Israel, and then I will have a little bit more to say. This thread is probably getting on Wendy's nerves and I won't drag it out.

Peter

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408860 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/18/2012 2:47 PM
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tim Purely out of curiosity since you seem to have a hair up your butt about this, why would they advertise this information and why would it matter so much to you?

Jeff Everyone who is in the reserves (which means a good part of the population)keeps a weapon at home and many own a side arm as well. All have been trained in their use.

I'm waiting for some info from Israel, and then I will have a little bit more to say. This thread is probably getting on Wendy's nerves and I won't drag it out.


Er... I think you just got it from Jeff and Tim asked the same question I did. Soooooooooooooooo...

As to getting on Wendy's nerves, let's bring it around to Macro economics. How much better off would those Arab countries be if they'd stop supporting terrorists and join hands with Israel in peaceful commerce?

Iirc Egypt & Israel did pretty good economically before the Muslim Brotherhood took over in Egypt.

The PEOPLE in all of the countries in the area would be a lot better off economically if they'd stop letting a few radicals lead them around by the nose.

Desert (The world's greatest excuse pales in the face of mediocre performance.) Dave

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 408922 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/19/2012 10:32 AM
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The mindset in that country is somewhat different than in the US. While the response time to missiles in the south of the country is keeping those living close to Gaza on edge, I suspect people in e beach, dodge into shelters as rockets approach and then walk back out onto the sand to bask some more in the sun. It's all a percentage game and the odds are that they won't be caught unaware "with their pants down".

I spent a month there (Eilat mostly) in the early 90's and that mirrors my experience as well.

Many people were armed to the teeth (even carried their weapons into the night clubs) and poeple went about their normal lives - even during a bombing - there was one a few blocks from my hotel when I was there.

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Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/20/2012 6:44 PM
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As members of the reserves, they are required to keep their service weapon (and entitled to own a sidearm).

This is completely wrong. When you are called up for reserve duty, you are issued a weapon (if necessary for what you are called up for), and when you are done with reserve duty, you return that weapon to the armory immediately. EVERY TIME. And you do NOT have any entitlement to own a sidearm. Receiving a license to carry a sidearm is very difficult (nearly impossible if you live in a typical city), you have to prove that you live in a dangerous area, and they actually check up if it is indeed dangerous.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409136 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/20/2012 11:53 PM
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Receiving a license to carry a sidearm is very difficult (nearly impossible if you live in a typical city), you have to prove that you live in a dangerous area, and they actually check up if it is indeed dangerous.

So people living near Israel's borders would be able to get permits?

BTW do you/have you lived in Israel?

If so, what do you hear about the situation now?

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409195 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/21/2012 1:07 PM
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No, only people living in dangerous areas near the borders can get permits. It is remarkably difficult to get a permit - even for officers in the IDF!

Yes, lived there for many years.

The situation? Well, there is a very wide discussion regarding whether or not a ground incursion is the right thing to do right now. Also talk of a ceasefire tonight.

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Author: desertdaveataol Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409223 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/21/2012 4:16 PM
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Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.

No, only people living in dangerous areas near the borders can get permits. It is remarkably difficult to get a permit - even for officers in the IDF!

Yes, lived there for many years.

The situation? Well, there is a very wide discussion regarding whether or not a ground incursion is the right thing to do right now. Also talk of a ceasefire tonight.


Thanks for the response. It seems the ceasefire is going through.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/several-casualties-in-explosion...

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Author: mauser96 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409227 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/21/2012 5:13 PM
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homicide rates and gun ownership

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/10/homicide-r...

even a casual glance at the map shows that countries with some of the stiffest anti gun laws have the highest murder rates.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homi...


Look at Mexico vs the US for something close to home . Only 300 feet apart, but what a difference

"El Paso, Texas was the safest city in the U.S. in 2010.
Juarez, Mexico, across the Rio Grande river, has the highest murder rate in the world."
Mexico has tough gun laws, Texas has easy gun laws.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/juarez-to-el-paso-2012-6#ixzz...


In the US murder rates have been declining for decades

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html

meanwhile gun ownership in the US continues to climb, if measured by Federal background checks. These checks don't measure all the gun sales, usually only those via dealers. Polls show less of a trend, even a decline, but most intelligent people would not reveal their firearms ownership to a telephone poller so it's an under count too.

There are a significant number of collectors/hoarders that have multiple firearms which probably balances off those that have none.
My guess is that there is at least one functioning firearm for everyone in the US. Most of these weapons will still function 200 years from now.


One can only wonder what murder rates would be if drugs were removed as a cause.

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Author: tim443 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 409233 of 457492
Subject: Re: A tar baby Date: 11/21/2012 5:56 PM
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even a casual glance at the map shows that countries with some of the stiffest anti gun laws have the highest murder rates.

...

Look at Mexico vs the US for something close to home .



mauser

Or perhaps look at your other border?

Methinks Mexico has a serious drug gang problem not to mention easy access to US gun shops?


http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

Counting Mexico’s Guns

Posted on April 17, 2009 , Corrected on April 22, 2009

Summary

There’s no dispute that thousands of handguns, military-style rifles and other firearms are purchased in the U.S. and end up in the hands of Mexican criminals each year. It’s relatively easy to buy such guns legally in Texas and other border states and to smuggle them across.


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