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Author: khalou Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 745942  
Subject: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 1:29 AM
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There are many people that believe that abortion is murder. I would never even pretend to have the authority to dispute this opinion.

There are many people that believe that abortion is a medical procedure that occurs before a human being has been formed. I would, once again, never even pretend to have the authority to dispute this opinion.

The reason that I don't believe I have the authority is because I am not talking about the reality of the matter, but only the opinion of those that hold them. I certainly don't have the authority to tell anyone what to believe, I can only provide the foundations upon which I have formed my own opinion.

But that's not what this post is about-

It is about what one does once one holds an opinion.

This paragraph is for the pro-choicers -

If you happened upon an individual or group that was killing people that got in their way, would you not decide intellectually that they didn't have the right to do so? Of course you would. You would decide that the victims were worth at least the intellectual formulation of an indictment for the actions that caused their deaths.

This paragraph is for the pro-lifers -

If you happened upon an individual or group that was forcing individuals to undergo unnecessary and prolonged unwanted physical processes in the name of the state, would you not decide intellectually that they didn't have the right to do so? Of course you would. You would decide that the victims were worth at least the intellectual formulation of an indictment for the actions that caused their governmentally-mandated servitude.

I have an opinion and it is pro-choice, but I'm going to argue in favor of the opposition just because I believe it is in my own best interests to investigate opposing views.

The argument against abortion-

There is a legal term that is used in civil suits where a person is unable to work in the profession in which they were trained, but an injury has forced them to seek other employment or disability. It is called "potential earnings". There is, therefore, legal precedent set for what might have been.

Should a man who has impregnated a woman discover that, without his knowledge or consent, that his potential offspring has been terminated through abortion, with consideration given to the woman for her participation in a pregnancy should it have been allowed to continue, there should be a compensation for the loss of such potential offspring.

I am amazed that, considering the number of pro-life individuals in this country, there has never been such a case brought to the courts with this in mind. Why wouldn't a pro-choice man who has lost his potential offspring to the legal and protected choice of the woman never sought legal compensation?

I am outraged.

k
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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664563 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 2:52 AM
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Why wouldn't a pro-choice man who has lost his potential offspring to the legal and protected choice of the woman never sought legal compensation?

Man Sues Wife on Abortion Done Without His Knowing

A Long Island orthodontist yesterday filed suit against his wife, seeking both a divorce and monetary damages because she had an abortion without his knowledge or consent.

It is the third case in as many weeks in which men across the nation have argued that fathers-to-be should have a say over whether a pregnant woman may have an abortion.


More at: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/22/nyregion/man-sues-wife-on-...

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664609 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 10:03 AM
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A Long Island orthodontist yesterday filed suit against his wife, seeking both a divorce and monetary damages because she had an abortion without his knowledge or consent.

Newspapers should list the names of addresses of all of these women in the US who do this without their husband's consent. It will help the poor saps who would want to date this woman after she gets a divorce not to go near her.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664628 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 11:27 AM
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Abortion should be completely restriction-free for the first four months at least, during which time it is impossible to to assert that a human being has formed. Why? Becuase human brainwaves don't exist during this period.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664630 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 11:31 AM
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Man Sues Wife on Abortion Done Without His Knowing

A Long Island orthodontist yesterday filed suit against his wife, seeking both a divorce and monetary damages because she had an abortion without his knowledge or consent.

It is the third case in as many weeks in which men across the nation have argued that fathers-to-be should have a say over whether a pregnant woman may have an abortion.




If the embryo is 'part' of the mother, than she has the right to have it removed.


If it is another human being, then it has no right to be there without her consent. Such consent could not be given or implied at the time of sexual intercourse, because the unborn did not exist at that time. Lacking such consent, she has the right to have it removed just as a homeowner can expel an invader at gunpoint.


If it's not a human being, then there is no problem with its removal.



No matter how you view the status of the unborn, logic dictates that one must be pro-choice.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664631 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 11:33 AM
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Newspapers should list the names of addresses of all of these women in the US who do this without their husband's consent. It will help the poor saps who would want to date this woman after she gets a divorce not to go near her.




What self-respecting woman would want to date men who are considered poor saps?

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664637 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 12:15 PM
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Viable fetuses are routinely aborted in this country. Here are the stories of the survivors of viable fetus abortions.

http://www.circleofprayer.com/abortion-survival-testimonies....

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Author: CelloSpice Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664670 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 2:10 PM
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Abortion should be completely restriction-free for the first four months at least, during which time it is impossible to to assert that a human being has formed. Why? Becuase human brainwaves don't exist during this period.

ROTFLMAO! Do you see any circular reasoning in this?

"A human being is a being with human brainwaves."
"What defines human brainwaves?"
"Brainwaves that you find in human beings."



Be gone with you. Your entertainment value on this topic has played itself out.

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Author: 307wolverine Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664673 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 2:24 PM
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Man Sues Wife on Abortion Done Without His Knowing

Sometimes I feel that many women (not all, of course) want their men to be trained poodles. When it suits their purpose, men should be responsible people who assume responsibility for their sexual behavior.

However, when it suits the woman's purpose to act independently without his input, they want him to just sit there and shut up.

For the record trolls, I happily gained full custody of the only child I have fathered at my divorce. I have always told DD that she is a blessing from God.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664781 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 11:36 PM
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"Abortion should be completely restriction-free for the first four months at least, during which time it is impossible to to assert that a human being has formed. Why? Becuase human brainwaves don't exist during this period." - feedmenowhuman


Time is an illusion.

"Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." - Albert Einstein

"...time is an illusion. The phenomena from which we deduce its existence are real, but we interpret them wrongly…" - Dr. Julian Barbour, PhD Physicist

The potential for a human being is there. If that "lump of cells" been left to grow a separate, unique, individual would have been the result. The fact that was cut short or terminated means that "potential" has been extinguished.

Art

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664784 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/6/2013 11:43 PM
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"If the embryo is 'part' of the mother, than she has the right to have it removed. If it is another human being, then it has no right to be there without her consent. Such consent could not be given or implied at the time of sexual intercourse, because the unborn did not exist at that time. Lacking such consent, she has the right to have it removed just as a homeowner can expel an invader at gunpoint. If it's not a human being, then there is no problem with its removal. No matter how you view the status of the unborn, logic dictates that one must be pro-choice." - feedmenowhuman


My personal feelings about abortion is that it is a necessary evil. Something that we tolerate because the alternative, alleyway abortions done with coat hangers is worse. Besides which the thousands of unwanted children that would result is a worse alternative.

But I am under no illusion that abortion is without repercussions on what it says about us as people and a society. Or the effect it has on the value we place on babies and children.

It is a dirty little evil that we tolerate and look the other way and try not to think about because it is "yucky", "nasty", and disturbing. We try and cleanse our mind of it and pretend that those lumps of cells weren't really going to be fat little babies.

and no I'm not ready to put my money where my mouth is. That is why I am "pro-choice" even though I really try not to think about what abortion really is. The termination and killing of unborn children.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664802 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 12:36 AM
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My personal feelings about abortion is that it is a necessary evil. Something that we tolerate because the alternative, alleyway abortions done with coat hangers is worse. Besides which the thousands of unwanted children that would result is a worse alternative.

You say that as if a back alley abortion done with a coat hanger is the ONLY alternative. It's not.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664810 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 12:49 AM
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"You say that as if a back alley abortion done with a coat hanger is the ONLY alternative. It's not." - Catherine


Catherine there is absolutely nothing I can say to make you see it from a different perspective. I know your position and I respect it. I know many people who think like you do.

I'll be honest, abortion makes me sad. But I know the evil that dwells within me. I know how I think. I don't want to adopt and pay for the hundreds of thousands of kids that would be born if abortion were illegal. Decath adopted a child. He put his money where his mouth is. He postponed his retirement to adopt and raise a child that otherwise may not have found such a loving Christian home. Kudos to Decath. I am not that person though. I don't believe I'm emotionally stable enough to do that.

Did you know that in Brazil they shoot street kids? They have so many poor unwanted children in Brazil that some vigilante groups at times go around shooting kids like they are vermin? Do you know why? Because these kids are thieves and rob people. There are so many unwanted children in Brazil that they form gangs and survive on the streets by criminal activity. I've seen programs about it on television.

The market for kids would be flooded if abortion were illegal. Some of them would be adopted, but there would be thousands more that wouldn't. They'd have to be raised in orphanages. They'd be like puppies that would be cute when they are little but when they were half grown nobody would want them.

Art

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664818 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 12:57 AM
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I don't want to adopt and pay for the hundreds of thousands of kids that would be born if abortion were illegal.

Try millions.

http://www.numberofabortions.com

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664821 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:00 AM
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Viable fetuses are routinely aborted in this country.


That's after the 4-month mark obviously, and in any case I'm not pushing for that.



Here are the stories of the survivors of viable fetus abortions.




How many of them remember it? Anti-choice people keep claiming that the unborn react to pain and injury, and so it should be a simple matter to find some who remember the aborted, um, abortion.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664822 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:01 AM
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Do you see any circular reasoning in this?

"A human being is a being with human brainwaves."
"What defines human brainwaves?"
"Brainwaves that you find in human beings."




I guess you missed that part where a lack of human brainwaves (along with a lack of having been born) means a lack of humanity.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664823 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:03 AM
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The potential for a human being is there. If that "lump of cells" been left to grow a separate, unique, individual would have been the result. The fact that was cut short or terminated means that "potential" has been extinguished.



If time is an illusion, then the abortion was pre-destined and not the result of free will.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664825 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:07 AM
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I don't want to adopt and pay for the hundreds of thousands of kids that would be born if abortion were illegal.

Try millions.

http://www.numberofabortions.com




If you are a Christian, the Bible makes it clear that every death is pre-planned by God. That obviously includes every abortion, every miscarriage, every murder, every car accident, etc.

"You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664828 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:13 AM
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"If time is an illusion, then the abortion was pre-destined and not the result of free will." - feedmenowhuman


Yep, that's sort of the direction I'm leaning. God allows it to happen to cause more duality and separation which is the whole point of life. The whole debate thing is just another way to experience duality and separation which teaches the soul what it means and how it feels to be separate, something it can't learn in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness that so many near death experiencers talk about.


Art

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664831 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:27 AM
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The market for kids would be flooded if abortion were illegal.

Making abortion illegal never stopped abortion. It only resulted in dead and permamently injured women.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664843 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 3:33 AM
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Making abortion illegal never stopped abortion. It only resulted in dead and permamently injured women.

Now we have multiple times more dead babies--about 1.6 million per year--than dead women.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664852 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 6:35 AM
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Making abortion illegal never stopped abortion. It only resulted in dead and permamently injured women.
_______________________________________

Making murder illegal never stopped murder.

I am not an anti-abortion advocate nor pro-abortion

But am an advocate of noting when someone's argument is just so damn dumb it hurts.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664903 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 11:14 AM
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Making abortion illegal never stopped abortion. It only resulted in dead and permamently injured women.

Now we have multiple times more dead babies--about 1.6 million per year--than dead women.




Except the abortions happened before they were actual babies.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664916 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 11:52 AM
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Making murder illegal never stopped murder.



Murder has a victim, and the penalties deter a lot of murders.



Abortion has no victim, and the penalties caused more suffering than they prevented. That's the difference.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664920 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 12:11 PM
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Making abortion illegal never stopped abortion. It only resulted in dead and permamently injured women.

Now we have multiple times more dead babies--about 1.6 million per year--than dead women.


Your numbers are from the 90's, and the numbers are decreasing as the population increases.

It is also not multiple times. The estimates for prior to 1973 vary from 600,000 to 1.2 million a year.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664924 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 12:20 PM
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It is also not multiple times. The estimates for prior to 1973 vary from 600,000 to 1.2 million a year.

If 1.2 million women died from back alley abortions, you can bet we'd have heard about it. That's 3,288 deaths per day.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664930 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 12:58 PM
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It is also not multiple times. The estimates for prior to 1973 vary from 600,000 to 1.2 million a year.

If 1.2 million women died from back alley abortions, you can bet we'd have heard about it. That's 3,288 deaths per day.


No, the number of abortions. Not the number of deaths. You might try reading my post before overreacting.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664933 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:13 PM
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No, the number of abortions. Not the number of deaths.

Since they were back alley abortions, secrecy is a given, so how do you know how many abortions were performed pre-Roe v Wade?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664936 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:22 PM
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No, the number of abortions. Not the number of deaths.

Since they were back alley abortions, secrecy is a given, so how do you know how many abortions were performed pre-Roe v Wade?


Google it yourself. Estimates exist. They aren't exact, but as with any illegal activity it is possible to obtain enough information to make a reasonable estimate.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664941 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:36 PM
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Google it yourself. Estimates exist. They aren't exact, but as with any illegal activity it is possible to obtain enough information to make a reasonable estimate.

"Reasonable" to the people who promote the abortion agenda. Pffft!

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664942 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 1:43 PM
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"Reasonable" to the people who promote the abortion agenda. Pffft!

As usual, a well thought out argument.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664955 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 2:36 PM
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As usual, a well thought out argument.
_______________________________________

You go with the it's prevalent and it's dangerous so let's make it legal and safer, and harangue others over a well thought out argument? Now that's funny.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664976 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 3:20 PM
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You go with the it's prevalent and it's dangerous so let's make it legal and safer, and harangue others over a well thought out argument? Now that's funny.

What well thought argument have you presented.

(As with the threads regarding insurance, Dave has presented well thought out and organized arguments. You only repeat marketing slogans, and insult anyone who doesn't agree with you.)

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664985 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 4:19 PM
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You go with the it's prevalent and it's dangerous so let's make it legal and safer, and harangue others over a well thought out argument? Now that's funny.

The argument that making abortion illegal will stop it is not true. Women have always risked their life and health to end unwanted pregnancies.

Women are life. Controlling their own lives means having control over their own bodies.

Those that believe abortion is wrong are not forced to have an abortion, or offering assistance those who have a crisis pregnancy. (And it doesn't mean abusing women by setting up fake abortion clinics. Those running fake abortion clinics should be prosecuted.)

I don't accept that your religion should control my medical care.

1 in 3 women have made the decision that they don't agree.

Why is the focus not on decreasing the need for abortion instead of attempting to force women to obey your religious beliefs?

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664995 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 4:49 PM
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Why is the focus not on decreasing the need for abortion instead of attempting to force women to obey your religious beliefs?

Is killing wrong? Is the belief that killing is wrong based on any religion?

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 664999 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 5:00 PM
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Why is the focus not on decreasing the need for abortion instead of attempting to force women to obey your religious beliefs?

Is killing wrong? Is the belief that killing is wrong based on any religion?
______________________________________

One thing one can always count on,is a liberal being dishonest.

No liberal is actually stupid enough to not know that it is not religion that is the basis of life beginning at conception. Although overwhelmingly religious folks do believe it.

Yet even though they know better, they can not help but lie. It really is a sad sad illness.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665001 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 5:03 PM
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Why is the focus not on decreasing the need for abortion instead of attempting to force women to obey your religious beliefs?

Is killing wrong? Is the belief that killing is wrong based on any religion?


Whether killing is wrong depends on context.

You define all abortion as murder, and that is within the context of your religion. You expect everyone else to agree with your opinion, but others do have different opinions.

I don't see emergency contraception as murder. The "pro-life" doesn't see any difference between pre-pregnancy and a viable fetus.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665006 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 5:14 PM
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You expect everyone else to agree with your opinion, but others do have different opinions. ~ vkg

There...fixed that for ya. See how that works?

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665011 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 5:35 PM
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Those that believe abortion is wrong are not forced to have an abortion, or offering assistance those who have a crisis pregnancy.
-------------------

Yes they are. Tax dollars at work.

I'm staying out of this except for pointing out obvious fallacies )Those that believe abortion is wrong are not forced to have an abortion, or offering assistance those who have a crisis pregnancy. (Hi, LS <g>).

arrete

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665013 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 5:46 PM
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You expect everyone else to agree with your opinion, but others do have different opinions. ~ vkg

There...fixed that for ya. See how that works?


Your games are not going to work.

You want to force other women to live by YOUR rules.

My stand is that women should be able to determine what happens to their own bodies.

It is not the same.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665014 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 5:51 PM
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I'm staying out of this except for pointing out obvious fallacies )Those that believe abortion is wrong are not forced to have an abortion, or offering assistance those who have a crisis pregnancy. (Hi, LS <g>).
_______________________________

I enjoy abortion debates. I don't really have a dog in the fight, but the assumptions that libs bring to the table are pretty awe inspiring, and you know they always amuse me. No debate exposes the lack of any thought of a position than a liberal on abortion.

Don't get me wrong, I kind think it is a life, and that every life deserves a shot, but I am not all that dogmatic about it. I also don't really understand the distinction between a 2 week old and a minus 6 week old. Either of them dies pretty quick without a major support system. As far as self sufficiency? We could get rid of a lot of teens with that argument and really improve things.

I am very much pro-death, but I reserve it for those I do not see as innocent.

As far as the abortion debate, I wish we could just make a damn ruling of when life begins and be done with it. We could use a Magic 8 ball, we would be so much better off no matter who 'won'.

Sure one side or the other would be very unhappy, but at least it would no longer be a political issue and stop people from voting rationally on the problems that politicians can actually solve. Maybe we can get past who owes you protection for your sex too, depending on how that works out, heck I am not as good looking as I used to be, if my wife dumps me, I may have to worry about getting government to pay for hookers.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665015 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 5:51 PM
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Yes they are. Tax dollars at work.

I'm staying out of this except for pointing out obvious fallacies )Those that believe abortion is wrong are not forced to have an abortion, or offering assistance those who have a crisis pregnancy. (Hi, LS <g>).

arrete


This is changing the meaning of my statement. It doesn't force the individual objecting to abortion to have an abortion.

My taxes are used to pay for many things that I don't approve. I have no idea how much or if funding is available for low income women.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665017 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 6:17 PM
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You want to force other women to live by YOUR rules. My stand is that women should be able to determine what happens to their own bodies.

I guess there's no one to speak for the babies.

Abortion Survivor Appears in Ad Campaign to Expose Owebama's Extreme Abortion Record
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/abortion-survivor-appears-in...

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665018 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 6:23 PM
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I also don't really understand the distinction between a 2 week old and a minus 6 week old. Either of them dies pretty quick without a major support system.

There is a point at which the fetus is viable on its own. Most healthy babies born 6 weeks premature survive. If medical issues may force early delivery, but it really is too late to be discussing abortion for a healthy fetus.

The other issue is when the fetus isn't normal and can't be deliveried normally. Again, it is who makes the medical decisions for the woman. Should a woman be forced into major surgery (and future major surgeries) to deliver a fetus that isn't going to survive?

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665020 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 6:24 PM
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Planned Parenthood Reports Record Year for Taxpayer Funded Abortions

http://washingtonexaminer.com/planned-parenthood-reports-rec...

In its latest annual report for fiscal year 2011 to 2012, Planned Parenthood reveals that it performed 333,964 abortions in 2011 – a record year for the organization. [Yay!]

According to annual reports, the organization performed 332,278 abortions in 2009, 329,445 in 2010, making the total number of abortions in three years to 995,687. [Wow!]

Planned Parenthood reported receiving a record $542 million in taxpayer funding, according to a Susan B. Anthony List analysis of the report, in the form of government grants, contracts, and Medicaid reimbursements. [Whew! That's a lot of dough!]

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665024 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 6:41 PM
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There is a point at which the fetus is viable on its own. Most healthy babies born 6 weeks premature survive. If medical issues may force early delivery, but it really is too late to be discussing abortion for a healthy fetus.

The other issue is when the fetus isn't normal and can't be deliveried normally. Again, it is who makes the medical decisions for the woman. Should a woman be forced into major surgery (and future major surgeries) to deliver a fetus that isn't going to survive?
---------------------

Excuse me? Again - I am only addressing logic.

You seem to have lost the normal fetus who can't survive on it's own. And that's a lot of them, nowadays. Ask the doc (JLC).

arrete

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665027 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 6:48 PM
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The other issue is when the fetus isn't normal and can't be deliveried normally. Again, it is who makes the medical decisions for the woman. Should a woman be forced into major surgery (and future major surgeries) to deliver a fetus that isn't going to survive?
---------------------

No IMO, I also believe in euthanasia.

Why is someone trying to sidetrack the conversation from absurd claims about forcing religion down people's throats?

Goalposts, where did those damn goalposts go now?

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665033 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 7:08 PM
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Excuse me? Again - I am only addressing logic.

You seem to have lost the normal fetus who can't survive on it's own. And that's a lot of them, nowadays. Ask the doc (JLC).

arrete


I not certain that I understand. There are a lot of "adults by age" that lack the ability to survive on their own.

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665036 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 7:11 PM
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I not certain that I understand. There are a lot of "adults by age" that lack the ability to survive on their own.
------------

And I thought PA threw up strawmen. Huh?

arrete

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665037 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 7:16 PM
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I guess there's no one to speak for the babies.

I am not advocating unrestricted abortion, but a reasonable compromise.

When there is no negotiation from the point that preventing pregnancy (Plan B) is murder and that as long as a fetus has a heartbeat the woman's life is of no value, then unpleasant results of no restrictions are going to happen.

A compromise that makes both sides not completely happy is needed.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665050 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 8:39 PM
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Why is someone trying to sidetrack the conversation from absurd claims about forcing religion down people's throats?

Goalposts, where did those damn goalposts go now?


Why is it an absurd claim?

Operation Rescue is a religious based terrorist organization.

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Author: CelloSpice Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665054 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 9:33 PM
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A compromise that makes both sides not completely happy is needed.

Sort of a lose-lose option.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665060 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 10:20 PM
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Operation Rescue is a religious based terrorist organization.

"Terrorism" has completely lost its meaning, being bantered about as it is by libruls for whom practically anything goes.

The practical reality is that millions and millions and MILLIONS of babies have been aborted since Roe v Wade.

Congratulations, America!

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665064 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/7/2013 10:41 PM
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Sort of a lose-lose option.

Compromise is well a compromise. Noone completely wins.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665078 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:23 AM
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"Terrorism" has completely lost its meaning, being bantered about as it is by libruls for whom practically anything goes.

but violence for conservative goals should be tolerated because after all it for the "greater" good?

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665079 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:52 AM
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No liberal is actually stupid enough to not know that it is not religion that is the basis of life beginning at conception.



When do the lives of identical twins begin? It can't be conception, because two 'humans' can't fit into one cell.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665080 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:54 AM
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I guess there's no one to speak for the babies.



Abortion does not kill babies.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665081 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:55 AM
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Planned Parenthood Reports Record Year for Taxpayer Funded Abortions



This is a lie. No tax dollars are used for abortions.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665082 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:56 AM
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The practical reality is that millions and millions and MILLIONS of babies have been aborted since Roe v Wade.



This is another lie.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665083 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:58 AM
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No liberal is actually stupid enough to not know that it is not religion that is the basis of life beginning at conception. Although overwhelmingly religious folks do believe it.



Religion is the ONLY basis for such an absurd belief. Science and Law certainly don't support it.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665088 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 6:26 AM
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Compromise is well a compromise. Noone completely wins.
_______________________________

Jesus Christ, a veritable font of silly

OK, I'm cool with murder just send some money to the milk lobby.

Compromising with evil, is just evil. There is no compromise if you believe abortion is murder. This idea is just silly. How obvious does something have to be, before a lib will actually be able to grasp it?

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665090 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 6:38 AM
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"If the embryo is 'part' of the mother, than she has the right to have it removed. If it is another human being, then it has no right to be there without her consent. Such consent could not be given or implied at the time of sexual intercourse, because the unborn did not exist at that time....


________________________________

Unless we are talking rape, the being was invited for what was known to be a nine month stay -- it had consent. It can not get there without consent, it is known to have happened once, (again except for rape) and lots of folks do not believe that happened, a lot of other worship the Virgin Mary.

In the case of rape? Well society failed the poor raped woman, Lots of victims of crimes have to undergo a long period before they recover. These periods suck for the victim.

This is just not an easy topic, were there is an obvious answer IMO

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665092 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 6:43 AM
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but violence for conservative goals should be tolerated because after all it for the "greater" good?
_______________________________

Does reality ever cross over to your world?

People are talking about the word being used about Congress people discussing legislation.

You are so painfully off the rails, seriously.

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Author: MetalDecathlete Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665105 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 9:51 AM
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and no I'm not ready to put my money where my mouth is. That is why I am "pro-choice" even though I really try not to think about what abortion really is. The termination and killing of unborn children.

Art


You are exactly right Art. This is why so many people are 'pro-choice'.

When you have to think/research what is really happening during an abortion, you find out that it is so unbelievably horrible that in order to stay pro-choice, you must bend your morals and ethics.

So people just don't want to think about it.

Metal

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665107 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 10:22 AM
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Why? Becuase human brainwaves don't exist during this period.

Then explain Congress.

JLC

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665108 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 10:27 AM
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Estimates exist. They aren't exact, but as with any illegal activity it is possible to obtain enough information to make a reasonable estimate.

A professor in college had a term for this, SWAG. Scientific Wild A$$ Guess.

You might be close or you might not be close.

JLC

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665113 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 10:41 AM
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As far as the abortion debate, I wish we could just make a damn ruling of when life begins and be done with it. We could use a Magic 8 ball, we would be so much better off no matter who 'won'.

Here is the main catch, medical technology changes and advances much faster than are moral decision making processes.

When Roe v. Wade was handed down, it basically said the government has no interest until the fetus/baby reaches the point of viability. At the time that was about 34 weeks gestational age (full term is 38-40). IIRC, JFK and Jackie lost a child born at 32 weeks. Today, the NICU takes babies as young as 23 weeks. So by SCOTUS ruling/reasoning, partial birth abortions are now illegal, but yet they are still protected and ongoing.

Currently we have standard tests for determining brain death. However, new technology has shown that people we think are brain dead are actually responding to stimuli. If I recall an experiment showing a "brain dead" person imagining they were playing tennis after they were given that suggestion.

So some argue that a fetus isn't a human until brain waves appear. Sounds logical. However, what technology is sitting out there that hasn't been tried to prove otherwise?

And here is another catch for your Sci-Fi pleasure. A team in Japan is/was working on an artificial uterus. They were able to get a blast/fetus to attach and grow. The experiment was terminated at 14 days, who know how long it could have gone. Logan's Run anybody.

JLC

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665114 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 10:44 AM
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There is a point at which the fetus is viable on its own. Most healthy babies born 6 weeks premature survive. If medical issues may force early delivery, but it really is too late to be discussing abortion for a healthy fetus.

Viability is now 23 weeks EGA or about 17 weeks premature.

Should a woman be forced into major surgery (and future major surgeries) to deliver a fetus that isn't going to survive?

The old rule of thumb of "once a c-section always a c-section" is no longer valid.

JLC

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665120 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 10:57 AM
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Unless we are talking rape, the being was invited for what was known to be a nine month stay -- it had consent.


When was this invitation extended?

I already pointed out that it's impossible for the invitation to have occurred at the time of sexual intercourse, because the unborn didn't exist then. You can't invite someone who doesn't exist.


The burden of proof is on you to explain exactly when the invitation happened and how.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665123 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 10:59 AM
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So some argue that a fetus isn't a human until brain waves appear. Sounds logical. However, what technology is sitting out there that hasn't been tried to prove otherwise?

__________________________________________

That is why laws based on judgement calls typically suck.

Make a damn call and stick by it. Then let the scientists argue until a decision is made. Let the law say, 34 weeks. Then the argument is over until the scientists say 28 weeks

As for me? I kinda prefer that something that is going to grow into a fully functional human unless extraordinary efforts are exerted to stop it be considered human.

It's kinda like Social Security as far as argument go in my mind. Let's admit it is welfare and deal with it from there. Same goes for abortion let's admit it is killing and say when it is OK. Warl says it's an invader, so you can kill it whenever, that is fine, he has a criteria and, we don't have to call it murder we can consider it inconvenience killing and call that OK. Let's get some honesty in the debate and go forward.

Frankly, I say it ain't human until it graduates HS without a criminal record. Let's just get something hard and fast and get past the damn waste of time this is in general.

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Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 11:00 AM
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Today, the NICU takes babies as young as 23 weeks. So by SCOTUS ruling/reasoning, partial birth abortions are now illegal, but yet they are still protected and ongoing.



There is no such thing as a partial birth abortion. It's a made-up term with no legal meaning.



So some argue that a fetus isn't a human until brain waves appear. Sounds logical. However, what technology is sitting out there that hasn't been tried to prove otherwise?



If they don't exist before a certain point because the brain is not developed, it doesn't matter what equipment you use.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665127 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 11:07 AM
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I kinda prefer that something that is going to grow into a fully functional human unless extraordinary efforts are exerted to stop it be considered human.




In the vast majority of cases, a fertilized egg will self-abort. No extraordinary efforts are necessary. A live human birth is the exception, not the rule.


All the abortions in the history of mankind are a drop in the bucket compared to the all miscarriages that happen.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665133 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 11:24 AM
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There is no such thing as a partial birth abortion. It's a made-up term with no legal meaning.

The exact medical term is "intact dilation and extraction". How many lay people would understand that? None. So a colloquial term is "invented" to convey a complex term.

It obviously has some legal meaning because it is being argued and fought over constantly.

If they don't exist before a certain point because the brain is not developed, it doesn't matter what equipment you use.

And we used to not know of the existence of bacteria because we couldn't see them with the naked eye. Lo and behold the microscope was invented and a whole new brave world opened up.

JLC

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665134 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 11:29 AM
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So by SCOTUS ruling/reasoning, partial birth abortions are now illegal, but yet they are still protected and ongoing.

Partial birth abortion is a political term. It is portrayed as killing healthy babies, and having no medical value. The goal was banning the procedure with no consideration for the health of the woman.

Why do you have the right to force a woman to have major surgery to deliver a fetus that isn't going to survive?

Again, compromise (which is apparently a dirty word for conservatives) would be an answer.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665138 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 11:48 AM
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Compromising with evil, is just evil. There is no compromise if you believe abortion is murder. This idea is just silly. How obvious does something have to be, before a lib will actually be able to grasp it?

How silly is it that women expect to control their own lives?

Freedom from other's religious beliefs was the reason this country was founded.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665140 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 11:54 AM
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The old rule of thumb of "once a c-section always a c-section" is no longer valid.

JLC


but how common is it?

I don't know of any one who has a normal delivery after a c-section. My sample is far more limited than yours.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665141 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:02 PM
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Again, compromise (which is apparently a dirty word for conservatives) would be an answer.
__________________________

OK since this is your position, I would like to see

A) position of conservatives demanding delivery of the non viable fetus
B) position of liberals demanding deliver of all viable fetuses

I do not know anyone or of anything expecting the fetus once non viable to be kept full term and delivered. I may be wrong, but that seems a rather silly position except for those folks who do not believe in doctors and such.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665142 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:04 PM
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Compromising with evil, is just evil. There is no compromise if you believe abortion is murder. This idea is just silly. How obvious does something have to be, before a lib will actually be able to grasp it?

How silly is it that women expect to control their own lives?

Freedom from other's religious beliefs was the reason this country was founded.
__________________________

What woman does not control their own life ?

What an absurd statement. Damn as a lib you don't even let people drive a car without a friggin seatbelt

Your arguments, as unbelievable as I find it I must admit, just get dumber and dumber

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Author: arrete Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665151 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 12:53 PM
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There is no compromise if you believe abortion is murder.
------------------------

Precisely - unless you think murder is OK. This is why I stay out of abortion discussions. If someone believes life begins at conception, telling them they are required by law to fund the murder of that life is cruel.

arrete - people can make their own choices, which means they shouldn't have to pay for what they believe is murder

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665152 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 1:06 PM
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Freedom from other's religious beliefs was the reason this country was founded.
__________________________

BTW, as bad as I found your other silly statement.

THis one was just awe inspiring.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665155 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 1:21 PM
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I do not know anyone or of anything expecting the fetus once non viable to be kept full term and delivered. I may be wrong, but that seems a rather silly position except for those folks who do not believe in doctors and such.

Catholic church status is very clear: as long as their is a fetal heartbeat, the fetus has priority over the woman. The policy doesn't consider if the fetus will live once born.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665177 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 2:28 PM
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Why do you have the right to force a woman to have major surgery to deliver a fetus that isn't going to survive? Again, compromise (which is apparently a dirty word for conservatives) would be an answer.

Did you not comprehend the response by a form member here that "compromising" over something considered evil, murder, is not an option?

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665180 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 2:32 PM
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How silly is it that women expect to control their own lives?

Yes, apparently some women expect to murder on demand. But many need psychological counseling thereafter.

http://www.womenonwaves.org/en/page/999/do-you-require-psych...

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665184 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 2:39 PM
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but how common is [vaginal delivery after c-section]? I don't know of any one who has a normal delivery after a c-section. My sample is far more limited than yours.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/sexual-an...

Pregnant women who have had a previous cesarean section may now be given the option of having a vaginal birth if doctors get on board with guidelines issued yesterday by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. The organization says that the procedure, known as vaginal birth after cesarean, or VBAC, is safe and appropriate for most women who have had one prior C-section (with a horizontal incision below the bikini line) and even for some who have had two previous incisions or those carrying twins. "The potential risks and benefits" of both VBAC and a repeat C-section should be discussed, and the "ultimate decision...should be made by the patient in consultation with her health care provider," read the guidelines, which were published in the August issue of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665185 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 2:40 PM
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How silly is it that women expect to control their own lives?
________________

I feel really badly for all those women who got pregnant because they did not wipe the toilet seat.

I greyed the person, they simply really had no connection between thought and post. Responding to a random quote generator seeded with pro-abortion quotes just got silly. It is hard to expect they get better on issues that are less important to them

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665189 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 2:57 PM
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Partial birth abortion is a political term.

Check again. Its a colloquialism for the medical term "intact dilatation and extraction". Do you understand that term? Didn't think so, neither would 99% of the population, thus the colloquialism.

Why do you have the right to force a woman to have major surgery to deliver a fetus that isn't going to survive?


Again, you're showing you're medical ignorance and lack of history. Partial birth abortion is used for pregnancies over 24 weeks gestation. Fetal/baby survival is now at 23 weeks gestation. So, banning partial birth abortions, which the reasoning of SCOTUS would now ban, is having a surgery for a fetus/baby that can survive.

JLC

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Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 2:57 PM
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OP: Freedom from other's religious beliefs was the reason this country was founded.
__________________________

BTW, as bad as I found your other silly statement, this one was just awe inspiring.

The OP still hasn't explained why murder is an essentially "religious" position and therefore he is not subject to it. Why, indeed, is it clearly wrong to take another life no matter what/no religion you are? Here's an explanation by C. S. Lewis.

Chapter 1: Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe

Every one has heard people quarrelling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant. However it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kind of things they say. They say things like this:

"How'd you like it if anyone did the same to you?"
"That's my seat, I was there first."
"Leave him alone, he isn't doing you any harm."
"Why should you shove in first?"
"Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine."
"Come on, you promised."

People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown-ups.

Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes diem is not merely saying that the other man's behaviour does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behaviour which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: "To hell with your standard." Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special excuse. He pretends there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the bit of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise.

It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behaviour or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might, of course, fight like animals, but they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarrelling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football.

Now this Law or Rule about Right and Wrong used to be called the Law of Nature. Nowadays, when we talk of the "laws of nature" we usually mean things like gravitation, or heredity, or the laws of chemistry. But when the older thinkers called the Law of Right and Wrong "the Law of Nature," they really meant the Law of Human Nature. The idea was that, just as all bodies are governed by the law of gravitation and organisms by biological laws, so the creature called man also had his law—with this great difference, that a body could not choose whether it obeyed the law of gravitation or not, but a man could choose either to obey the Law of Human Nature or to disobey it.

More at http://usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf

So, as we see, murder has nothing to do with "religion." At least not yet.

Chapter 1 continues...

I hope you will not misunderstand what I am going to say. I am not preaching, and Heaven knows I do not pretend to be better than anyone else. I am only trying to call attention to a fact; the fact that this year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practise ourselves the kind of behaviour we expect from other people. There may be all sorts of excuses for us. That time you were so unfair to the children was when you were very tired. That slightly shady business about the money—the one you have almost forgotten—came when you were very hard up. And what you promised to do for old So-and-so and have never done—well, you never would have promised if you had known how frightfully busy you were going to be. And as for your behaviour to your wife (or husband) or sister (or brother) if I knew how irritating they could be, I would not wonder at it—and who the dickens am I, anyway?

I am just the same. That is to say, I do not succeed in keeping the Law of Nature very well, and the moment anyone tells me I am not keeping it, there starts up in my mind a string of excuses as long as your arm. The question at the moment is not whether they are good excuses. The point is that they are one more proof of how deeply, whether we like it or not, we believe in the Law of Nature. If we do not believe in decent behaviour, why should we be so anxious to make excuses for not having behaved decently?

The truth is, we believe in decency so much; we feel the Rule or Law pressing on us so much that we cannot bear to face the fact that we are breaking it, and consequently we try to shift the responsibility. For you notice that it is only for our bad behaviour that we find all these explanations. It is only our bad temper that we put down to being tired or worried or hungry; we put our good temper down to ourselves.

These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in.

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Author: JLC Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665193 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 3:03 PM
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The old rule of thumb of "once a c-section always a c-section" is no longer valid.

JLC

but how common is it?

I don't know of any one who has a normal delivery after a c-section. My sample is far more limited than yours.


How common depends on a couple things: how old is your OB/Gyn (younger ones are more apt to try it) and where do they deliver (if at a high risk or busy L&D hospital, more apt to try it because of institutional experience).

Off the top of my head its about a 50/50 deal at my place and falls along the lines of younger vs. older OB/Gyns. Patients also tend to VBAC (vaginal birth after c-section) if they have vaginally delivered before their first c-section.

JLC

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665201 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:17 PM
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The exact medical term is "intact dilation and extraction". How many lay people would understand that? None. So a colloquial term is "invented" to convey a complex term.



No, the colloquial term was invented to cause an emotional reaction, and nothing more.




If they don't exist before a certain point because the brain is not developed, it doesn't matter what equipment you use.
----
And we used to not know of the existence of bacteria because we couldn't see them with the naked eye. Lo and behold the microscope was invented and a whole new brave world opened up.



In other words, you can't refute my point.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665202 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:20 PM
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I do not know anyone or of anything expecting the fetus once non viable to be kept full term and delivered.



Several states require this because of conservative legislation, even if death is certain.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665203 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:21 PM
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If someone believes life begins at conception, telling them they are required by law to fund the murder of that life is cruel. people can make their own choices, which means they shouldn't have to pay for what they believe is murder



Nobody who opposes it is being forced to pay for it.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665205 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:22 PM
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many need psychological counseling thereafter.



So? People need counseling after lots of things.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665206 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:22 PM
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FeedMeCrap = one of, if not the most, ineffective debater in all of Fooldom.

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Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:24 PM
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So? People need counseling after lots of things.

They hardly ever need counseling after having a manicure, which is how libruls treat having an abortion.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665209 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:25 PM
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Partial birth abortion is used for pregnancies over 24 weeks gestation. Fetal/baby survival is now at 23 weeks gestation. So, banning partial birth abortions, which the reasoning of SCOTUS would now ban, is having a surgery for a fetus/baby that can survive.



(1) Since when did SCOTUS say they would ban it?

(2) There are situations for which the fetus will not survive but for which such a procedure is necessary. Banning the procedure endangers the mother.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665210 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:26 PM
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Did you not comprehend the response by a form member here that "compromising" over something considered evil, murder, is not an option?

And the other side of expecting women to surrender control of their lives isn't an option either.

As long as there is no compromise, reasonable limits cannot be established. As with most religious based conflicts, it is a conflict that will have no end. In demanding unconditional surrender, the worst of the practices will continue.

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Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:28 PM
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human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it.



This is false. It is society which has developed these standards through trial and error and experience, not some supernatural revelation. And still, many people disagree on them.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665212 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:29 PM
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And yet I keep defeating your pathetic "arguments."

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Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:31 PM
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So? People need counseling after lots of things.
---------
They hardly ever need counseling after having a manicure, which is how libruls treat having an abortion.




There's not reason to ban something just because someone might need counseling afterward.


Plenty of women have abortions and don't need counseling.


Some women dump their abusive boyfriends and need counseling.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665214 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:33 PM
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And yet I keep defeating your pathetic "arguments."

You're a legend in your own mind. Pffft!

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665215 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:37 PM
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And yet I keep defeating your pathetic "arguments."

You're a legend in your own mind. Pffft!
__________________________

Are you still arguing with a guy that think the Boston Tea Party was about freedom from religion?

If so there is little wonder why he believes he is winning every argument. Apparently, the difference between person's belief and reality, is reality.

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Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 4:40 PM
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Are you still arguing with a guy that think the Boston Tea Party was about freedom from religion?




I have never made any statements to that effect.

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665233 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 6:05 PM
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Yes, apparently some women expect to murder on demand. But many need psychological counseling thereafter.

Some women kill their children and throw away babies.

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Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 6:40 PM
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vkg wrote: Some women kill their children and throw away babies.

What the....?!

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665243 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 7:04 PM
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vkg wrote: Some women kill their children and throw away babies.

What the....?!


Your statement was that some women need counseling after an abortion.

Well, some women need counseling after childbirth.

The value of your argument is?

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665254 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/8/2013 7:48 PM
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Precisely - unless you think murder is OK. This is why I stay out of abortion discussions. If someone believes life begins at conception, telling them they are required by law to fund the murder of that life is cruel.

And here I sit thinking that abortion should be readily available yet NOT tax-funded...

... just like all other medical care.

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665304 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 12:17 AM
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How many of them remember it? Anti-choice people keep claiming that the unborn react to pain and injury, and so it should be a simple matter to find some who remember the aborted, um, abortion.


Heck, I don't even remember being circumcised -- and I'm sure that must've hurt.

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665306 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 12:23 AM
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If you are a Christian, the Bible makes it clear that every death is pre-planned by God. That obviously includes every abortion, every miscarriage, every murder, every car accident, etc.


I've noticed that the Bible is silent on abortion. (And yes, I've read it beginning to end.) I'm sure abortion existed in some form or other even back in Biblical times, so I view it as rather curious that any mention of abortion was omitted.

And it's a not-so-well-known fact that even the Catholic Church was for many years not opposed to abortion as long as it occurred early enough in the pregnancy. How interesting.

It appears that Christian objection to any and all abortions is a relatively recent development. In earlier centuries it was not so.

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Author: Art53 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665308 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 12:29 AM
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"Heck, I don't even remember being circumcised -- and I'm sure that must've hurt." - Andrew

--------------

I'm sure you reacted vigorously to it.

Art

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665309 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 12:30 AM
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No liberal is actually stupid enough to not know that it is not religion that is the basis of life beginning at conception. Although overwhelmingly religious folks do believe it.


I propose that life begins before conception. Sperm are very much alive before they reach a fertilized egg. At least in all the videos I've seen. Non-life doesn't swim.

Perhaps we should ban spermicides as well.

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665310 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 12:34 AM
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Maybe we can get past who owes you protection for your sex too, depending on how that works out, heck I am not as good looking as I used to be, if my wife dumps me, I may have to worry about getting government to pay for hookers.


I think government should get out of the way and let me be a hooker if I want. Why the heck is that a matter for the State?

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665311 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 12:46 AM
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And it's a not-so-well-known fact that even the Catholic Church was for many years not opposed to abortion as long as it occurred early enough in the pregnancy. How interesting.

False. Myth. The Catholic Church has slways taught against abortion. There may have been some rogue priests or liberal Catholics whose opinions were different, but that doesn't change the infallible teaching that procured abortions are always an intrinsic evil.

CCC:

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72


Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:


You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

==================================================================


http://www.catholic.com/tracts/abortion

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Author: TheBaronAndrew Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665312 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 1:13 AM
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False. Myth. The Catholic Church has slways taught against abortion. There may have been some rogue priests or liberal Catholics whose opinions were different, but that doesn't change the infallible teaching that procured abortions are always an intrinsic evil.


You might find this interesting:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

Starting in the 7th century CE, a series of penitentials were written in the West. These listed an array of sins, with the penance that a person must observe as punishment for the sin. Certain "sins" which prevented conception had particularly heavy penalties. These included:
* practicing a particularly ineffective form of birth control, coitus interruptus (withdrawal of the penis prior to ejaculation)
* engaging in oral sex or anal sex
* becoming sterile by artificial means, such as by consuming sterilizing poisons.

Abortion, on the other hand, required a less serious penance. Theodore, who organized the English church, assembled a penitential about 700 CE. Oral intercourse required from 7 years to a lifetime of penance; an abortion required only 120 days.

Pope Stephen V (served 885-891) wrote in 887 CE: "If he who destroys what is conceived in the womb by abortion is a murderer, how much more is he unable to excuse himself of murder who kills a child even one day old." "Epistle to Archbishop of Mainz."

Pope Innocent III (circa 1161-1216):
bullet He wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."
* Early in the 13th century he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) also considered only the abortion of an "animated" fetus as murder.

Pope Sixtus V (1471-1484) issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" in 1588 which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.

Pope Gregory XIV (1535-1591) revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he determined happened 116 days (about 17 weeks) into pregnancy.
__________________

17th TO 19th Century CE (Abortion becomes murder again):

In the 17th century, the concept of "simultaneous animation" gained acceptance within the medical and church communities in Western Europe. 9 This is the belief that an embryo acquires a soul at conception, not at 40, 80. or 116 days into gestation as the church had been teaching.

Hieronymus Florentinius, a Franciscan monk, asserted In 1658 that all embryos or fetuses, regardless of their gestational age, which were in danger of death must be baptized. However, his opinion did not change the status of abortion as seen by the church.

Pope Pius IX (1792-1878) reversed the stance of the Roman Catholic church once more. He dropped the distinction between the "fetus animatus" and "fetus inanimatus" in 1869.


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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665313 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 1:55 AM
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Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73



Conception does not occur in the womb. Therefore life begins *after* conception, according to this Biblical passage.

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665314 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 1:57 AM
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Pope Stephen V (served 885-891) wrote in 887 CE: "If he who destroys what is conceived in the womb by abortion is a murderer, how much more is he unable to excuse himself of murder who kills a child even one day old."



For an infallible Pope, he's again mistaken in the idea that conception occurs in the womb.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665317 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 3:35 AM
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I'm sure you reacted vigorously to it.

As do unborn babies react to simuli. Warning: Graphic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_KvVMZw_a4

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665318 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 3:37 AM
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Sperm are very much alive before they reach a fertilized egg.

And are the size of the period at the end of this sentence.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665319 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 3:39 AM
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FeedMeCrap wrote: Conception does not occur in the womb. Therefore life begins *after* conception, according to this Biblical passage.

Now we're taking Biblical scholarship from an atheist. *yawn*

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665320 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 3:42 AM
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No liberal is actually stupid enough to not know that it is not religion that is the basis of life beginning at conception.

Well, it certainly isn't science. Everything alive on this planet today is an end of an unbroken chain of life going back something over 3 billion years. At no point in that chain, except at the somewhat mysterious beginning (I believe they are up to over a dozen scenarios that they can't prove couldn't have happened or wouldn't have done the job), did anything go from not-alive to alive.

So no, life does not begin at conception. It began long, long before conception.

Similarly, HUMAN life, depending on just how you define "human", begins somewhere between 50,000 years ago and 2.5 million years ago. (Both of those numbers may have moved further into the past since the last time I checked.

When personhood begins... well, that's a different and more complex question.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665321 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 6:28 AM
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How many of them remember it? Anti-choice people keep claiming that the unborn react to pain and injury, and so it should be a simple matter to find some who remember the aborted, um, abortion.
________________________

That has got to be the guys that 'wins' all his arguments right?

I am guessing when the other side is laughing so hard they can't talk he assumes he has they stumped.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665322 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 6:42 AM
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And it's a not-so-well-known fact that even the Catholic Church was for many years not opposed to abortion as long as it occurred early enough in the pregnancy. How interesting.
___________________________________

IMO, only if you think the issue is strictly religious and that science plays no part and a bunch of other hocus pocus is at the core of the objection.

The Catholic Church also does not believe in premarital sex or sex unless it is for procreation yet you do not see a big thing about that. There is the issue and the church position and then that folks look at it, and it resonates with them.

But, I do admit someone called for compromise, so I called on the logic of the most compromised person I could think of to come up with a solution-that of course being Obama.

Neither side has a stronger case, though both sides are of course absolutely sure. I think we should just 'compromise' and admit that we do not know when life begins and until we do, make the 'compromise' agreement that we will not do abortions because we don't know and might be committing murder, then when we are sure, we can com back to it. I know that a lot of Obama supporters like compromise and that is a pretty good template of what they believe is compromise, granted it won't make Warrl happy, but you can't have everything. <grin>

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665323 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 6:45 AM
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I propose that life begins before conception. Sperm are very much alive before they reach a fertilized egg. At least in all the videos I've seen. Non-life doesn't swim.

Perhaps we should ban spermicides as well.
________________________

Well, if you can make the case that a sperm will grow into a person if essentially left alone then I would agree. Seems kind of a silly assertion, but go for it.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665324 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 6:50 AM
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I think government should get out of the way and let me be a hooker if I want. Why the heck is that a matter for the State?
___________________________________


I couldn't agree more. THis is certainly one of the most stupid things we do, but it travels with a whole lot of stuff tied for most stupid of course.

You can destroy your health working 30 years picking up garbage cans behind a truck spewing carbon monoxide, walking over ice with cans weighing 40 pounds .... But it is illegal to work at something people want and do for fun?

That's absurd.

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Author: JoshRandall Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 665325 of 745942
Subject: Re: Abortion Date: 1/9/2013 7:38 AM
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It will take some research, but I will respond to each of your cut and paste "arguments" that suggest the Catholic Church has not always taught that abortion was considered a grave sin and intrinsically evil. I might not finish each one in this post, but will reply to each one over time.

Starting in the 7th century CE, a series of penitentials were written in the West. These listed an array of sins, with the penance that a person must observe as punishment for the sin. Certain "sins" which prevented conception had particularly heavy penalties. These included:
* practicing a particularly ineffective form of birth control, coitus interruptus (withdrawal of the penis prior to ejaculation)
* engaging in oral sex or anal sex
* becoming sterile by artificial means, such as by consuming sterilizing poisons.
Abortion, on the other hand, required a less serious penance. Theodore, who organized the English church, assembled a penitential about 700 CE. Oral intercourse required from 7 years to a lifetime of penance; an abortion required only 120 days.

Pope Stephen V (served 885-891) wrote in 887 CE: "If he who destroys what is conceived in the womb by abortion is a murderer, how much more is he unable to excuse himself of murder who kills a child even one day old." "Epistle to Archbishop of Mainz."

Pope Innocent III (circa 1161-1216):
bullet He wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."
* Early in the 13th century he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.


The fact that there were penetent