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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 196448  
Subject: Abortioncams Date: 8/15/2001 9:48 PM
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Interesting site. Folks keeping an eye on abortion clinics through cameras.

http://www.bestchoice.com/



Stockemup
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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57501 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 10:31 AM
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Stockemup,

You're right, it's an interesting site. Some of the pictures brought tears to my eyes.

Every ounce of my being is against abortion; however, I have to wonder if their intent is being obstructed by the message this site is sending, and if their efforts would be best served by utilizing some other method than this.

I've tried, as best I can, to put myself in the position of the people who were photographed. There were a few pictures of people, smiling, wearing signs that said "Planned Parenthood Escorts". Since in their opinion they're doing nothing wrong, they're not going to mind having their pictures plastered all over the internet. Then we have those who are there for abortions, or those who are considering abortion who just happened to find this site from the comfort of their own homes. What message are they getting from this? I wonder. It's as if the people behind the cameras are saying "We love you now, but if you don't see it our way and go ahead with your abortion we're going to put your picture on the internet." That might deter some, perhaps out of fear. Sure, a life saved is a life saved, but if fear is the motivating factor, fear is what they'll take with them, not the love of Jesus, not the Word of God. Fear is a reaction to something, so if their lives are based on actions that are reactions, then they've learned (basically) nothing and they very well could find themselves in that predicament in the future.

Just my few thoughts on the matter. As I said, and I think I've made it clear anyway, I'm adamantly opposed to abortion. I wonder about any real, lasting, impact that this site might have,though, other than to drive more people away......it's a loaded situation, isn't it?

God bless,
Pam

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Author: DiabloQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57507 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 11:28 AM
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I've tried, as best I can, to put myself in the position of the people who were photographed. There were a few pictures of people, smiling, wearing signs that said "Planned Parenthood Escorts". Since in their opinion they're doing nothing wrong, they're not going to mind having their pictures plastered all over the internet. Then we have those who are there for abortions, or those who are considering abortion who just happened to find this site from the comfort of their own homes. What message are they getting from this? I wonder. It's as if the people behind the cameras are saying "We love you now, but if you don't see it our way and go ahead with your abortion we're going to put your picture on the internet." That might deter some, perhaps out of fear. Sure, a life saved is a life saved, but if fear is the motivating factor, fear is what they'll take with them, not the love of Jesus, not the Word of God. Fear is a reaction to something, so if their lives are based on actions that are reactions, then they've learned (basically) nothing and they very well could find themselves in that predicament in the future.


Well said. The concept of harassing people who frequent a particular establishment reminds me of the pictures of SA Brownshirts standing outside Jewish shops in 1930's Germany to keep people from shopping there.
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/gallery/pg20/pg6/pg20624.html
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/gallery/pg20/pg6/pg20623.html

So if a FedEx driver has to make a stop there are they going to plaster his/her face all over the internet? How about a USPS letter carrier -- should they be scrutinized for delivering the mail?

And how do they know that people going into the clinics are all going in there for abortions? Or even to the office that provides abortions if there are other offices in the building? Look at the picture of the sign for planned parenthood (upper left picture) and notice that there are other offices in the building. http://www.bestchoice.com/wa/index_5.htm
Several years ago when I wokred a crappy retail job, I didn't have health insurance and went to planned parenthood because they had sliding scale fees I could afford for exams and birth control (not that it's anyone business, but no I did not have an abortion). Do you (directed to the board, not the poster I'm replying to) think someone should've taken my picture and publicized it?




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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57508 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 11:32 AM
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Just my few thoughts on the matter. As I said, and I think I've made it clear anyway, I'm adamantly opposed to abortion. I wonder about any real, lasting, impact that this site might have,though, other than to drive more people away......it's a loaded situation, isn't it?


Pam - I admire those people with the conviction to stand in front of abortion clinics all day long to try and counsel women entering the clinic. For that matter, I admire those with the conviction to stand in front of abortion clinics all day long holding a sign that reads "Keep Abortion Legal" - even though I disagree with the opinion - I admire the effort.

As Lisa pointed out previously and as I think you might be saying, it's going to take changed hearts for abortion to decrease or vanish - legislation or protests are not going to solve the problem.

If you talk to the protestors, they will probably tell you stories of women who have changed their minds and given birth as a result of their efforts - and that's sufficient motivation for them to continue the "battle" even though the prospect of winning the "war" looks bleak.



What message are they getting from this? I wonder. It's as if the people behind the cameras are saying "We love you now, but if you don't see it our way and go ahead with your abortion we're going to put your picture on the internet."

My guess is this is a minor concern in the eyes of the protestors. In the interviews I've heard and read by the protestors, at the point where a pregnant woman is about to enter an abortion clinic, that is viewed as a desperate situation. A life is about to be ended and they want to save that life and worry about the results later. I've heard it compared to someone reaching into a burning car to save a child - "save the child and then worry about your burn treatments later."

Of course there is a small minority of the protestors who think that violence is an acceptable means of preventing abortions. This is the area where I see a lot of inconsistency among those who are anti-abortion.


There is an analogy that I once heard that requires some deep thought and I'll paraphrase your thoughts above in repeating the analogy. Assume you and I are German citizens living in Eastern Europe during the time Hitler's forces are rounding up Jews for labor camps and extermination. You and some other German citizens are protesting outside a labor camp where incinerators are operating around the clock. You take pictures of soldiers coming to and from duty in the camp and publish these in protest phamphlets. (Let's assume the government tolerates your protests and Germany has an all-volunteer military)

I come along and say to you:

"Then we have those German soldiers who are there because other jobs are scarce and they need the money to support their families or there are young Germans considering becoming soldiers who see your pictures in protest phamphlets while sitting in the comfort of their own homes. What message are they getting from this? I wonder. It's as if you people behind the cameras are saying "We love you now, but if you don't see it our way and go ahead and kill those Jews with forced labor and gas, we're going to put your pictures in our protest phamphlets." That might deter some of those soldiers, perhaps out of fear. Sure, a life saved is a life saved, but if fear is the motivating factor, fear is what they'll take with them, not the love of Jesus, not the Word of God. Fear is a reaction to something, so if their lives are based on actions that are reactions, then they've learned (basically) nothing and they very well could find themselves in that predicament in the future."

ShelbyBoy


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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57513 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 12:15 PM
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ShelbyBoy,

Yes, you're right, it's going to take changed hearts. I agree.

"In the interviews I've heard and read by the protestors, at the point where a pregnant woman is about to enter an abortion clinic, that is viewed as a desperate situation. A life is about to be ended and they want to save that life and worry about the results later." Yes, but where do pictures enter into it? Counseling is wonderful, if you can get to talk with someone before they enter the door. Pictures don't accomplish that, though. I'm looking at that site as it stands, and I don't see it doing what they'd probably like it to do.

I haven't had a chance to read your analogy as I've got to leave for an appointment. I'll read it later, though, and get back to you about it.

Pam

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Author: LUC95 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57519 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 12:38 PM
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Well said. The concept of harassing people who frequent a particular establishment reminds me of the pictures of SA Brownshirts standing outside Jewish shops in 1930's Germany to keep people from shopping there.



This was also a frequent practice of police, military, and FBI in the US. They would have cameras fixed on gay bars back in the 50's and 60's, and use this evidence against patrons of bars when they would raid them.

Harassment is harassment.

Charlie
...will go stand in front of one of the cams if needed...

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57524 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 12:53 PM
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Charlie
...will go stand in front of one of the cams if needed...


I'm hoping as someone who would give Godly counsel to women to not have an abortion and not the abortion escorts.


Stockemup

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57529 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 1:11 PM
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DiabloQueen said:
Well said. The concept of harassing people who frequent a particular establishment reminds me of the pictures of SA Brownshirts standing outside Jewish shops in 1930's Germany to keep people from shopping there.


Charlie said:
This was also a frequent practice of police, military, and FBI in the US. They would have cameras fixed on gay bars back in the 50's and 60's, and use this evidence against patrons of bars when they would raid them.



Are you guys equating someone who will "harass" another person because of his skin color, sexual orientation, ethnic background, religious affiliation, etc. with someone who will "harass" another person about to participate in a human abortion?


ShelbyBoy


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Author: precious1965 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57530 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 1:16 PM
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I don't know about anyone else, but I would equate harrassment with harrassment, no matter the reasoning of the harrasser. I do not give anyone permission to use my photo or likeness, for the internet or anything else. As stated somewhere else in this thread, just because someone goes to, passes by, or near an abortion clinic does not mean they will obtain an abortion. If someone wants to sway my decision to their way of thinking, they had better supply me with facts and figures and persuasive discussion and not harrassment.

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57531 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 1:18 PM
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I repeatedly find myself asking others on this board (and other boards) to ask for clarification on various topics and posts instead of making assumptions and then responding to what someone has said based on the assumptions.

With that in mind, I decided to email the people involved in the abortion cameras site and ask if someone would come to this board to discuss and answer questions.

But now I'm getting a message the site is not available:
http://www.bestchoice.com/

I'll try later to see of the site is back up.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: DiabloQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57533 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 1:29 PM
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someone who will "harass" another person about to participate in a human abortion?


How do you even know that the victims of the harassment are about to participate in an abortion? Did you follow the link I provided to the picture of the sign for Planned Parenthood? Do you think it's all right to harass a woman going to see her insurance agent because there's a PP facility in the same office building?






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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57537 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 1:58 PM
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I don't know about anyone else, but I would equate harrassment with harrassment, no matter the reasoning of the harrasser.

Suppose you are returning to your car in a dark parking lot. About half way across the dark lot to your car two men approach you and try to convince you to go on a "date" with them. I happen to be walking by, but no one else is around.

Seeing you are in a tough situation, I walk over and say, "Come on guys, why don't you just leave the lady alone and let her go home?"

One of the guys turns to me and says, "Why don't you mind your own business and stop harrassing us?"

Which had you rather I do at that point - continue "harrassing" the guys to try and protect an innocent person (you) or simply walk away and leave you at their mercy so I won't be guilty of harrassment?




I do not give anyone permission to use my photo or likeness, for the internet or anything else.

There are situations where someone doesn't need your permission or my permission to use our photo or likeness.



As stated somewhere else in this thread, just because someone goes to, passes by, or near an abortion clinic does not mean they will obtain an abortion.

I didn't look at all the photos, but the ones I looked at didn't seem to show people who just happened to be walking by an abortion clinic, making a delivery to a clinic or happened to be near a clinic. If they are posting such photos, I too would wonder why.

Can you tell me on which page of the site you saw such photos so I can go take a look?



If someone wants to sway my decision to their way of thinking, they had better supply me with facts and figures and persuasive discussion and not harrassment.

Suppose right now there is a woman who has just decided to have an abortion. She gets in her car and drives to a local clinic. I'm not sure how someone outside the clinic will have the opportunity to supply her with facts and figures and persuasive discussion without that being considered harrassment. Even if you simply handed the person a fact sheet and didn't say a word, you would be labeled a "harrassing anti-choice zealot."

Maybe the anti-abortion folks should just publish some booklets with facts and figures and give them to the people operating the abortion clinics. I'm sure those nice folks inside won't mind the women taking a few minutes to ponder the pro's and con's before making a final decision.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57538 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 2:00 PM
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Do you think it's all right to harass a woman going to see her insurance agent because there's a PP facility in the same office building?


No.

Do you think it's alright to harass a woman going to have an abortion?



ShelbyBoy


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Author: precious1965 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57539 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 2:21 PM
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Maybe the anti-abortion folks should just publish some booklets with facts and figures and give them to the people operating the abortion clinics. I'm sure those nice folks inside won't mind the women taking a few minutes to ponder the pro's and con's before making a final decision.

Yes, I believe they should. When I considered my options, including abortion and adoption, I checked all the resources available to me at that time. While I never visited a clinic, it is still a resource. I was in contact with friends, family, clergy, church office, doctors and colleagues.


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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57540 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 2:43 PM
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Maybe the anti-abortion folks should just publish some booklets with facts and figures and give them to the people operating the abortion clinics. I'm sure those nice folks inside won't mind the women taking a few minutes to ponder the pro's and con's before making a final decision.


Yes, I believe they should.


Does this mean you trust the abortion clinic to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion?

If Yes, does this trust extend to other organizations providing products and services - such as insurance companies, drug companies, doctors, lawyers, auto-manufacturers, financial planners, etc?

ShelbyBoy




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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57541 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 2:47 PM
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Yes, I believe they should.


Please respond to the other questions I presented in post 57537 - repeated below:

I didn't look at all the photos, but the ones I looked at didn't seem to show people who just happened to be walking by an abortion clinic, making a delivery to a clinic or happened to be near a clinic. If they are posting such photos, I too would wonder why.

Can you tell me on which page of the site you saw such photos so I can go take a look?



and


Which had you rather I do at that point - continue "harrassing" the guys to try and protect an innocent person (you) or simply walk away and leave you at their mercy so I won't be guilty of harrassment?



ShelbyBoy

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Author: precious1965 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57542 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 2:47 PM
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Does this mean you trust the abortion clinic to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion?

Your sample scenario and idea involved anti-abortion personnel providing pre-printed pamphlets to the clinic for distribution. So, yes, I trust the clinic to provide the pamphlet upon request. Or, to allow the display of such pamphlet as I have seen other such pamphlets displayed in the clinics I have visited and my own doctors office.


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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57543 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 3:03 PM
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So, yes, I trust the clinic to provide the pamphlet upon request. Or, to allow the display of such pamphlet as I have seen other such pamphlets displayed in the clinics I have visited and my own doctors office.


To repeat, does this trust extend to other businesses?

Would you consider it adequate if the banks only provided the "fine print" concerning loans on request or simply put the "fine print" in a pamphlet on display in the bank?

Would you consider it adequate if a druggist only provided a list of side effects of a particular drug on request or simply put a pamphlet on display?

Would you consider it adequate if the manufacturer of a household cleaner only provided a list of precautions on request or simply put a pamphlet on display in the store where the cleaner is sold?


I'm trying to determine if you trust all businesses to be voluntarily forthcoming concernign their products and services or does this trust simply extend to abortion clinics?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57544 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 3:36 PM
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Does this mean you trust the abortion clinic to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion?

No more so than one could trust an anti abortion rights group to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57545 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 3:50 PM
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Suppose you are returning to your car in a dark parking lot. About half way across the dark lot to your car two men approach you and try to convince you to go on a "date" with them. I happen to be walking by, but no one else is around.
Seeing you are in a tough situation, I walk over and say, "Come on guys, why don't you just leave the lady alone and let her go home?"
One of the guys turns to me and says, "Why don't you mind your own business and stop harrassing us?"
Which had you rather I do at that point - continue "harrassing" the guys to try and protect an innocent person (you) or simply walk away and leave you at their mercy so I won't be guilty of harrassment?


That's not a vaild example of harassment. From Webster's:
Harassment
1 a : EXHAUST, FATIGUE b : to annoy persistently
2 : to worry and impede by repeated raids <harassed the enemy>


If someone is in danger of being killed on a particular occasion and you intervene to save that person's life, it's not harassment, it's an instance of intervention. If the same two guys picked on single women walking through the parking lot every night, and you periodically went up to them and called them names and/or stole their hats, then left, then returned the next night and did it again, then you'd be harassing them. You also wouldn't be doing anyone any good.

Harassment doesn't do anyone any good. Allowing God to use you as a tool to help change people's hearts and their desires does good.

Don't harass people. Love them.

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57546 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 3:54 PM
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In response to a post by precious1965, I asked her:
Does this mean you trust the abortion clinic to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion?


KnickMick responded:
No more so than one could trust an anti abortion rights group to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion




DiabloQueen previously asked me a straightforward Yes or No type question.

In post 57538 I offered a straightforward "No" answer then responded with my own straightforward question.

I've asked other questions in this thread which have been ignored - even though some have been repeated.

Now here's KnickMick answering a question posed to someone else with as much a statement as a straightforward response.

Is it too much to expect that if I offer answers to questions in a straightforward manner that I'll receive the same in return?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57547 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:05 PM
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"No more so than one could trust an anti abortion rights group to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion"

There are no pro's to abortion.

:-)

Pam
*****
(More tonight on other posts).

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57548 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:07 PM
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I said previously in a question to precious1965:
Which had you rather I do at that point - continue "harrassing" the guys to try and protect an innocent person (you) or simply walk away and leave you at their mercy so I won't be guilty of harrassment?

Bonhoeffer responded:
That's not a vaild example of harassment. From Webster's:
Harassment
1 a : EXHAUST, FATIGUE b : to annoy persistently
2 : to worry and impede by repeated raids <harassed the enemy

My response:
My efforts at helping precious1965 in the scenario would be by trying "to annoy persistently" the two men, so the definition does seem to apply.

Besides, what's important here, and what I'm trying to find out, is what precious1965 means by harrassment. Her previous post made it seem as if the term has a very broad definition.



Bonhoeffer said:
If someone is in danger of being killed on a particular occasion and you intervene to save that person's life, it's not harassment, it's an instance of intervention.

My response:
In my scenario to precious1965, I didn't say anything about her being in danger of being killed.

But thanks for clearing that up. Using your own words, since a baby is in danger of being killed and the anti-abortionists are intervening to save the baby's life, it's not harrassment, it's an instance of intervention.

Now if you want to argue the baby does not constitute a "person's life" - that is another discussion.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57549 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:08 PM
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"No more so than one could trust an anti abortion rights group to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion"

I'll make a deal with you.

You post a list of the "pro's" of abortion that an anti-abortion group should provide and I'll respond with a list of "con's" of abortion that abortion clinics should provide.

Go ahead - you first.....



ShelbyBoy

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57551 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:19 PM
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My efforts at helping precious1965 in the scenario would be by trying "to annoy persistently" the two men, so the definition does seem to apply.

If all you want to do is "persistently annoy" two potentially violent men, then i suggest you do nothing at all. You must have a very different understanding of the word "annoy" than i do. In my understanding, someone can be annoyed and still harm or kill another person. You can annoy them by singing "The Song That Never Ends" or by flicking spit balls at them or insulting them or any number of things, but none of those is likely to stop physical harm from befalling your potential victim.

If you go up to two men who are approaching a lady with what appears to be mal-intent and make some effort to prevent that from happening, you are doing far more than annoying or harassing. Whether you just try to reason with them or physically attack them, i repeat that you are intervening to prevent physical harm, not harassing.

But thanks for clearing that up. Using your own words, since a baby is in danger of being killed and the anti-abortionists are intervening to save the baby's life, it's not harrassment, it's an instance of intervention.

Harassing abortion doctors and/or people going to have abortions doesn't save any lives. If you go into an abortion clinic and pull a woman out before she is able to have an abortion (depending on your understanding of when "life" begins) then yes, you are intervening and saving life, at least for a moment. But if that woman then proceeds to go to another clinic once she's out of your sight, then you have accomplished nothing. Or worse yet, if she decides to use a coat hanger and do it herself because she can't get it done under sanitary conditions by a doctor who knows what he's doing and then dies herself from infection, then you have actually set off a chain of events that has resulted in the loss of two lives instead of just one.

Love people, don't harass them.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57552 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:23 PM
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<<Is it too much to expect that if I offer answers to questions in a straightforward manner that I'll receive the same in return?
>>
Yes


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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57553 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:25 PM
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<<Is it too much to expect that if I offer answers to questions in a straightforward manner that I'll receive the same in return?>>

Maybe



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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57554 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:37 PM
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But thanks for clearing that up. Using your own words, since a baby is in danger of being killed and the anti-abortionists are intervening to save the baby's life, it's not harrassment, it's an instance of intervention.

Harassing abortion doctors and/or people going to have abortions doesn't save any lives. If you go into an abortion clinic and pull a woman out before she is able to have an abortion (depending on your understanding of when "life" begins) then yes, you are intervening and saving life, at least for a moment. But if that woman then proceeds to go to another clinic once she's out of your sight, then you have accomplished nothing.


The significant majority of anti-abortion people who are outside of abortion clinics are are offering counsel, facts, suggestions, etc.
They are not shouting, committing violence, etc. That's just how they are portrayed in the press. And despite their peaceful efforts, they are still considered to be "harrassing."

Counseling and providing facts does sometimes lead to changed hearts. Women with changed hearts aren't going to turn to another clinic, a coat hanger, etc.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57555 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:45 PM
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The significant majority of anti-abortion people who are outside of abortion clinics are are offering counsel, facts, suggestions, etc.
They are not shouting, committing violence, etc. That's just how they are portrayed in the press. And despite their peaceful efforts, they are still considered to be "harrassing."

Counseling and providing facts does sometimes lead to changed hearts. Women with changed hearts aren't going to turn to another clinic, a coat hanger, etc.


We were merely arguing the proper use of the word "harassment." I do not personally believe that standing outside a clinic and offering counseling in an attempt to change people's hearts qualifies as harassment. That's loving intervention (as long as it's presented in a loving manner, of course).

So i guess we agree.

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57556 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:46 PM
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If you go into an abortion clinic and pull a woman out before she is able to have an abortion (depending on your understanding of when "life" begins) then yes, you are intervening and saving life, at least for a moment. But if that woman then proceeds to go to another clinic once she's out of your sight, then you have accomplished nothing. Or worse yet, if she decides to use a coat hanger and do it herself because she can't get it done under sanitary conditions by a doctor who knows what he's doing and then dies herself from infection, then you have actually set off a chain of events that has resulted in the loss of two lives instead of just one.

Love people, don't harass them.



I'll keep that in mind if I ever see you in danger of being harmed or killed.

I'll just decide:

"If I stop the attacker now, he might just confront Bonhoeffer later when I'm not around and kill him, then I will have accomplished nothing. Someone else might be with Bonhoeffer next time and be killed by the attacker also, in which case I actually would have set off a chain of events that has resulted in the loss of two lives instead of just one. I think I'll just love people and ignore Bonhoeffer's situation."


ShelbyBoy

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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57557 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:48 PM
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Is it too much to expect that if I offer answers to questions in a straightforward manner that I'll receive the same in return?

Hard to answer since your expectations are your own. However Shelby, you know full well that the previous question as you posed it to precious could really only be answered, "No".


not looking to debate the definition of 'is'....


mick

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57558 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:49 PM
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"If I stop the attacker now, he might just confront Bonhoeffer later when I'm not around and kill him, then I will have accomplished nothing. Someone else might be with Bonhoeffer next time and be killed by the attacker also, in which case I actually would have set off a chain of events that has resulted in the loss of two lives instead of just one. I think I'll just love people and ignore Bonhoeffer's situation."

Not a valid analogy to abortion.

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57559 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:52 PM
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We were merely arguing the proper use of the word "harassment." I do not personally believe that standing outside a clinic and offering counseling in an attempt to change people's hearts qualifies as harassment. That's loving intervention (as long as it's presented in a loving manner, of course).

So i guess we agree.



Thanks for writing that. I was beginning to wonder what point you were trying to make.

It's refreshing when someone offers their opinion on something even though it's not politically correct. It's rare even on this board.

Thanks again.


ShelbyBoy








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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57560 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:57 PM
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"If I stop the attacker now, he might just confront Bonhoeffer later when I'm not around and kill him, then I will have accomplished nothing. Someone else might be with Bonhoeffer next time and be killed by the attacker also, in which case I actually would have set off a chain of events that has resulted in the loss of two lives instead of just one. I think I'll just love people and ignore Bonhoeffer's situation."

Not a valid analogy to abortion.


That's true - I didn't offer it as an analogy to abortion.

I offered it as a thought process someone who takes a "don't get involved" attitude towards abortion might have towards other situations where someone will be harmed unless the person takes action.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57561 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 4:58 PM
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Pam -

My statement made no representations about pro's or con's of abortion. I was simply pointing out the obvious.

%~)

mick

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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57563 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 5:06 PM
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Shelby~

a generous offer, but thank you no.

Reread my post. I did not state a position on abortion.

My point (and yours as well in a previous post) is simply that groups (and people) release information through their own filters. I said no more and no less. Sorry if you extrapolated the rest.

mick

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57564 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 5:09 PM
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I offered it as a thought process someone who takes a "don't get involved" attitude towards abortion might have towards other situations where someone will be harmed unless the person takes action.

That's fine, just as long as we don't confuse "action" with "harassment." : )

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57565 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 5:10 PM
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I asked:
Is it too much to expect that if I offer answers to questions in a straightforward manner that I'll receive the same in return?

KnickMick responded:
Hard to answer since your expectations are your own.


My response:
Actually it's very easy to answer. The expectations are very simple. A question is asked. In response, one of the following is offered:

1. Yes
2. No
3. I can't answer that as a Yes or No - and here's why...



KnickMick:
However Shelby, you know full well that the previous question as you posed it to precious could really only be answered, "No".


My response:
I don't know that. And I always ask others not to make assumptions about my thoughts and instead to ask me to clarify. Therefore, I am extending the same courtesy to precious1965.

The question I asked was:
Does this mean you trust the abortion clinic to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion?

Her statement that caused me to ask the question sure seemed to place an amount of trust in abortion clinics to provide accurate information - which is of course why I asked her to clarify.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57566 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 5:17 PM
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Reread my post. I did not state a position on abortion.

I know you didn't state a position on abortion.




My point (and yours as well in a previous post) is simply that groups (and people) release information through their own filters. I said no more and no less.

You said, "No more so than one could trust an anti abortion rights group to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion"

That sure seems to imply that you have abortion pro's and con's in mind.
But if I misunderstood your point, my apology.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57567 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 5:30 PM
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Actually it's very easy to answer. The expectations are very simple. A question is asked. In response, one of the following is offered:

1. Yes
2. No
3. I can't answer that as a Yes or No - and here's why...


Shelby~

thank you for the clarification.
I think I will let precious speak for herself.

Although you didn't ask me, I did butt into this...so...

My answer is No. I do not trust the abortion clinic to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion. AND
I do not trust an anti abortion group to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion.

BTW - I do not trust Mormons to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of...oh forget it! that's a whole other story! :-)


peace

mick




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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57568 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 5:32 PM
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Shelby-

none neccesary, you are right my wording does seem to imply more...this was unintended. I apologize as well-

peace

mick

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57569 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 5:35 PM
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BTW - I do not trust Mormons to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of...oh forget it! that's a whole other story! :-)

What a nice thing to say; you must be one of those "real" Christians, I keep hearing about. I'm beginning to see why I can't be one.

ES


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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57577 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 7:11 PM
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Mick,

"I was simply pointing out the obvious."

Well, there you go being obvious--I'm supposed to see that?
(Sorry!)

Pam


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Author: coralville Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57578 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 7:12 PM
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Shelbyboy asked: Does this mean you trust the abortion clinic to voluntarily provide an accurate portrayal of the pro's and con's of abortion?

I do. In fact I think an abortion clinic is more likely to provide an objective answer than a pro-life group. I say this because while I can understand why clinics on principle want to make abortions available it is not clear to me why a clinic would want to promote abortions. Most clinics are not-for-profit institutions. On the other hand, I can fully understand why a pro-life group would be a bit biased since they consider abortion murder. It is probably considered okay to lie to prevent a murder.

In any case, here is a planned parenthood site. Go to the area on abortion and point out any inaccuracies. I'm no expert and I'm curious if there really is a bias.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/WOMENSHEALTH/whatifpregnant.htm#5

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Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57579 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 7:24 PM
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I'm trying to determine if you trust all businesses to be voluntarily forthcoming concernign their products and services or does this trust simply extend to abortion clinics?


This seems very simplistic. Why should it be all business? Some businesses are trustworthy some not.


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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 7:44 PM
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ShelbyBoy,

I read your analogy and have given it some thought, and it doesn't work for me. It doesn't fit.

I see the German soldiers in your analogy as the doctors and clinic workers at today's abortion clinics. My focus was on women (and the men involved with them)who are contemplating abortions. The Jews in your analogy are "sitting ducks", whereas people contemplating abortion today are not "sitting ducks".

I feel a rather long post coming on. My house is in a "teenage tizzie" right now which is making it a little hard to think. It (mercifully) should end (the "tizzie", not my attempts at thinking) within the next half hour or so. I'll see what I can do, for everyone's sake, about condensing my thoughts and I'll be back.

Pam

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57582 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 9:21 PM
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I preface this by saying that not every comment will specifically pertain to that website. It's impossible for me to not think in terms of the "whole picture" (no pun intended).

I'm not "knocking" the website. I looked at it and all kinds of unsolicited but well-meaning suggestions came to mind. I doubt they'll ask for my input, though. I wanted to double-check a couple things on the site, but it's down so I'm forced to rely on my memory (uh-oh).

If it were my website, I'd set it up in much the same way that I would organize a group to stand outside an abortion clinic (at whatever distance would be legal) to talk with people on the way in (and on the way out, if they so chose)--i.e. in the event they're open to spiritual counseling, be sure to have a list of churches or other counselors copied and ready to hand out. Whether or not they're open to that route, if they're pursuaded to abandon their plans for an abortion, a baby will be born--be sure you have resource sheets to review with them (medical, financial, food pantries, postnatal support--and preferably someone from each of those organizations there with you, to offer assurance). "Same" with the website. When I checked it earlier, I was concentrating on going through the pictures and now I don't remember if any links were provided.

I do not condone violence and will never associate with an organization that does. Period. Yes, in your "burning car" situation, of course it's good to grab the child and worry about any personal harm later but in the limited time you have, if there's a way to open the door wider and save two instead of one? This can apply to a website. We don't know how long it will hold someone's attention. If the purpose is to encourage other likeminded sites with suggestions, that's one thing. If the purpose is to get someone who might be considering an abortion to stop and think--and hopefully to decide against abortion--that's different.

I remember one location had words to the effect of "Model Site--they'll show you how it's done" on it. I think it was that location that showed a picture of the back of a truck parked in the lot of an abortion clinic. The truck was for sale and had a handwritten sign in the window, containing the owner's phone number. There was a comment at the bottom of the picture stating that "they" (the photographers?) called the number on the sign. I think they must have reached the occupants inside on a cell phone, because it said that the man angrily got out of the truck, tore the sign out of the window, and drove away. Victory for the unborn child? Yes, at least temporarily. We'll never know. My main thoughts when I looked at this were, instead, on a person who might stumble across the site. "JaneQPublic" is sitting in her living room, nervous about an abortion that's scheduled in two days. She wants to know more about it, or is just passing time, does a search on "abortion" and pulls this up. I don't think this is going to "speak" to her, I think she would be more reluctant to seek alternate sources because she might think that "we'll" be after her if we find out who she is and she goes ahead with it. Especially with an internet site, you've got to make the most of the limited time you might have. I'll go back and look at the site some more when it is back up.

I've done my share of organizing "Life Chains", and given emotional support to young women who have made the decision to carry their babies to term. I had a thought this afternoon...I'd love, sometime, to start walking toward an abortion clinic--let the protesters think what they will, I'd be interested to hear what they say, what their approach is.

Anyway, with the exception of my personal insistance on no violence, I don't think there's one approach that is going to work with everyone. People are all in different "places" and are reached by different means. Speaking God's truth, in love, is never wrong. God loves the unborn children but He just as surely loves the parents and wants to reach them, too. I'm for leaving the door as wide open as possible to reach as many as we can for Him.

Pam

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57583 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 9:32 PM
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"I say this because while I can understand why clinics on principle want to make abortions available it is not clear to me why a clinic would want to promote abortions. Most clinics are not-for-profit institutions."

Back when I was a pension consultant I had non-profits for clients. Non-profit means that the company doesn't make a profit, or rather that no one gets the money when they run a surplus. But the people who work for the non-profit can and often do make big money. Very big money.

At 1.3 million abortions a year at an average cost of maybe $600-700 we're talking about a pretty big business.

God bless,

Rich

Sources:

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/aboramt.html

http://www.lrfps.com/fee.html
I'd guess that the costs are even higher in many places, as AK doesn't have a particularly high cost of living. I also find it amazing that while this is ostensibly a "family planning" clinic, about all the site talks about, and apparently about all they seem to do, is abortions. Given this website, wouldn't it be reasonable to infer that a woman going there at the least is contemplating an abortion?

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57584 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 10:06 PM
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Somewhat Long.....


Coral said
In fact I think an abortion clinic is more likely to provide an objective answer than a pro-life group.

First question. Based upon what evidence other than your following statement do you believe this to be so?



I say this because while I can understand why clinics on principle want to make abortions available it is not clear to me why a clinic would want to promote abortions.

I think to most any of us who are pro-life we cannot begin to understand why anyone would want to slaughter innocent human life in the womb. We can agree that abortions in the late second trimester and all of the third are definitely that now since they can survive outside the womb thanks to medicine.




Most clinics are not-for-profit institutions.

Second question. Based upon what evidence can you corroborate this statement? When my mother and sister were more heavily involved in the pro-life movement, they found the opposite tended to be more the situation.




On the other hand, I can fully understand why a pro-life group would be a bit biased since they consider abortion murder. It is probably considered okay to lie to prevent a murder.


Lie about what??




Now, as to the PP web site and the statement looking for inaccuracies. The second sentence contains a rather large error.

Abortion is a legal and safe procedure.

While it may be legal, calling it safe would be the overstatement of the century. I could go into detail, but you being a scientist and what I perceive to be a very intelligent individual could ascertain why the procedure has such heavy risks.




Many teenagers want to consult their parents before an abortion. But telling a parent is not required in all states. Many states do require a woman under 18 to tell a parent or get a parent's permission.

Don't like the sound of this statement as it appears farther down. It seems to indirectly imply that you really shouldn't tell your parents if you don't feel up to it and while in some extreme cases that might be the right decision, most times it is the wrong one.




Most women feel relieved after an abortion. Some experience anger, regret, guilt, or sadness for a short time. These feelings may be complicated by the abrupt hormonal changes that take place after abortion. Serious, long-term emotional problems after abortion are rare. They are more likely after childbirth.

This statement sounds not only antiseptic, but strictly personal opinion without much basis in fact, especially the part about long-term emotional problems more likely after childbirth than abortion. Let me just say that from personal family experience, that is way off the mark. As for relief after abortion by most women, I'd like to see that statement validated. It seems its being said more to encourage women to have the abortion rather than being fact. I think most women end up going away feeling numb or being numbed to what they have done.





Ask beforehand about payment. Some places want to be paid in advance. Some accept credit cards. Sometimes payment plans can be worked out. Some insurance plans cover part or all of the cost. In all states, Medicaid will pay for abortion if the woman's life is in danger. In some states, Medicaid will pay for abortion for other reasons, too — sometimes if the woman is 18 years old or younger. Check with your local Planned Parenthood center or your state or local health or welfare department for the kind of Medicaid coverage in your state.

As for most of these centers being non-profit, as you indicated, this paragraph seems to indicate the opposite. If the service is done for a woman's best interest, then where is the statement that sometimes services can be rendered without cost if your situation cannot afford to pay?





About five million women in the U.S. become pregnant every year. Half of those pregnancies are unintended. And 1.2 million end in abortion. The most common reasons a woman chooses abortion are:


She is not ready to become a parent.


No one really ever is, that's why it is so wonderful. Discovering parenting, but definitely not a reason to slaughter an inutero baby.


She cannot afford a baby.


Oh yes, the love of money or lack of it should determine life and death for babies.


She doesn't want to be a single parent.


She should have thought of this before she jumped in the sack with some guy to get it on.


She doesn't want anyone to know she has had sex or is pregnant.


Ah yes, shame....what a terrible thing it would be if there was still actual shame in our society.


She is too young or too immature to have a child.


Well, she was mature enough to to commit the act that caused it. Anyone ever hear of adoption???


She has all the children she wants.


Ah, the China policy rears its head at PP.


Her husband, partner, or parent wants her to have an abortion.


Lets see, destroy life to keep someone's love who thinks destroying life is okay.


She or the fetus has a health problem.


Personal experience with this one. While it does happen, this occurs less than 4% of all cases last stats I read about a year ago. Even in this situation, I am leery because the advocation seems to always say take the babies life without overall attempts at both mom and child survival.


She was a victim of rape or incest.


While another situation that occurs in less than I believe 7% of all cases, why must the baby die for the sins of the adults? The baby did not choose those who caused its conception, so why should the baby pay the ultimate price?




Here is another inaccurate statement located at the PP site. The only guarantee to no pregnancy is no sex, so to say getting pregnant after having sex is unintended is just completely disingenious.


There is plenty more to pick apart, but this is just a brief sampling since you did ask.




Stockemup

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Author: DiabloQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57586 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 10:13 PM
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Love people, don't harass them.



I'll keep that in mind if I ever see you in danger of being harmed or killed.

I'll just decide:

"If I stop the attacker now, he might just confront Bonhoeffer later when I'm not around and kill him, then I will have accomplished nothing. Someone else might be with Bonhoeffer next time and be killed by the attacker also, in which case I actually would have set off a chain of events that has resulted in the loss of two lives instead of just one. I think I'll just love people and ignore Bonhoeffer's situation."


ShelbyBoy


Shelbyboy,

are you really that dense or is it just an act to get a rise out of people? I've noticed a pattern of you asking oversimplified questions and twisting people's answers to suit your purposes.

That's why I won't answer questions from you -- I have no interest in playing your little game and seeing you use your "logic" to twist whatever I say.

-- Fran


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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57587 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 10:18 PM
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I noticed one other thing at the PP website that Coral provided the link to.

According to the them and frequently through the site, anyone against abotion is an anti-choice zealot...LOL! I guess that makes them pro-choice nihilists.


Stockemup

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57588 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 11:32 PM
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Seems as if the abortioncam site is getting a lot of attention today.

Here is an article:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/abc/20010815/pl/abortioncams010815_1.html



ShelbyBoy

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57589 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 11:46 PM
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"What a nice thing to say; you must be one of those "real" Christians, I keep hearing about." Why yes, he is. On the other hand,

Proverbs 28:26: "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool..."

And what's the LDS confirmation that they're hearing truth? Burning in the bosom? Joseph Smith apparently didn't read Proverbs and was counting on us Christians to overlook it, too.

Pam

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57590 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 11:48 PM
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I'd call it heartburn.
You'd call it truth.
*sigh*

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57591 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 11:54 PM
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"Seems as if the abortioncam site is getting a lot of attention today."

No wonder the site's been down. Must be that all of us CFer's overloaded it. It's stockemup's fault........

Pam



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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57592 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/16/2001 11:58 PM
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While another situation that occurs in less than I believe 7% of all cases, why must the baby die for the sins of the adults? The baby did not choose those who caused its conception, so why should the baby pay the ultimate price?


stockemup,

There are approximately 1.3 million abortions in the U.S each year and 13,000 follow rape or incest. That works out to about 1%.

Concerning reasons for abortion, on average a woman will give 3 reasons for having an abortion. 75% say a baby would interfere with school, work, other responsibilities, etc. 66% say they can't afford the baby. 50% don't want to be a single parent or aren't getting along with the father

Another interesting fact if I can remember it correctly is that 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 (I forget which) abortions are for women who are church members and identify themselves as Christian.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57593 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:02 AM
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Another interesting fact if I can remember it correctly is that 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 (I forget which) abortions are for women who are church members and identify themselves as Christian.


Slight correction. 1 in 6 women who have had abortions are evangelical Christians. I don't know if they are church members or not.


ShelbyBoy




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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57594 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:08 AM
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Pam,

It's stockemup's fault........

LOL! This is one fault I'll be glad to shoulder the burden for. It certainly is stimulating a healthy discussion.

I can see it is once again causing Shelby to have rational thought and questions for us all. I wish he'd knock it off. We can't be having that sort of thing around here. What will others start to think of CF'ers if he continues it...........(tongue way into cheek(my own))


Stockemup

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57595 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:10 AM
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Someone mentioned the "safety" of abortions - here is an article and excerpts. I believe the Alan Guttmacher (spelling?) Institute, which is the public education arm of Planned Parenthood, reports that abortion is safer than childbirth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nichole.simonweb.com/~afterabortion/News/abortiondeaths.html

Excerpts:

Springfield, IL -- A recent government funded study in Finland shows that women who abort are approximately four times more likely to die in the following year than women who carry their pregnancies to term. In addition, women who carry to term are only half as likely to die as women who were not pregnant.

"This is an impeccable, record-based study," said David C. Reardon, Ph.D., who authored a review of the Finland study and other related studies in the latest issue of The Post-Abortion Review. "It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that abortion is not safer than childbirth."


..."Even though this important study was published in the top Scandinavian obstetrics journal, it has been completely ignored by the American press," Reardon said. "Even worse, abortion counselors continue to lie to American women. They are telling women that abortion is safer than childbirth, when this and other irrefutable studies prove exactly the opposite. The entire body of medical literature clearly shows that abortion contributes to a decline in women's physical and mental health. Women aren't hearing this. Nor are they being told that giving birth actually contributes to women's overall health, not only in comparison to those who abort but also in comparison to women who have not been pregnant."




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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57596 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:15 AM
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stockemup,

"(tongue way into cheek(my own))" Just remember to remove it before you become permanently disfigured. :-)

"causing Shelby to have rational thought and questions for us all. I wish he'd knock it off" I agree. Between rational thoughts and questions and KnickMick being obvious, I feel like I'm being set up! *LOL*

Pam


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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57597 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:30 AM
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<<Is it too much to expect that if I offer answers to questions in a straightforward manner that I'll receive the same in return?>>

Actually a lot of the time you answer a question with a question, you seldom give a straight forward answer.





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Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57598 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:36 AM
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There is a thought going on in my head that I would like comments on. It goes as follows:

If it is legally OK (note I said legally, I did not say morally OK) to have abortion cams taking pictures of people going about legal activities and then putting these pictures on the web for all to see, and this includes pictures of anyone in or near an abortion center for whatever reason....then do we have many arguments left against traffic cams or cams in any other public places?

I'm trying to focus this question only on legal aspects, primarily on invasion of privacy, but including any other legal aspects. Is support of abortion cams opening a door that that reduces all of our rights to any privacy in public places? Not to be too melodramatic but is this another opening for "Big Brother is Watching You"?

(I realize that I am off the topic of abortion on the abortion thread, but this seems like the place to pose the question.)
Ted

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57601 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:57 AM
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If it is legally OK (note I said legally, I did not say morally OK) to have abortion cams taking pictures of people going about legal activities and then putting these pictures on the web for all to see, and this includes pictures of anyone in or near an abortion center for whatever reason....then do we have many arguments left against traffic cams or cams in any other public places?


Good question.

The first thought that comes to mind is there is one huge difference between abortion cams and the cameras being installed at traffic lights and other locales by governmental bodies.

The government has the legal authority to require action and use force if necessary based on information it obtains through the use of cameras. Abortion camera operators don't have such authority.

Further, the government is restricted, by the 4th Amendment, against unreasonable searches and seizures. As I understand, several "test cases" on the use of cameras by the government are working their way through the courts at this time. It will be interesting to see if any of the uses of cameras by government is considered to be an unreasonable search.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57603 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:22 AM
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Stockemup,



NIV Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.
6 Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
7 But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren; and they were both well along in years.
8 Once when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God,
9 he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense.
10 And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense.
12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear.
13 But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John.
14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,
15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
16 Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God.
17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous-- to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
18 Zechariah asked the angel, "How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years."
19 The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.
20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."
21 Meanwhile, the people were waiting for Zechariah and wondering why he stayed so long in the temple.
22 When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak.
23 When his time of service was completed, he returned home.
24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.
25 "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people."
26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.
30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.
31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month.
37 For nothing is impossible with God."
38 "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea,
40 where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth.
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"
46 And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me-- holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm; he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever, even as he said to our fathers."
56 Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.
57 When it was time for Elizabeth to have her baby, she gave birth to a son.
58 Her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had shown her great mercy, and they shared her joy.
59 On the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they were going to name him after his father Zechariah,
60 but his mother spoke up and said, "No! He is to be called John."
61 They said to her, "There is no one among your relatives who has that name."
62 Then they made signs to his father, to find out what he would like to name the child.
63 He asked for a writing tablet, and to everyone's astonishment he wrote, "His name is John."
64 Immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue was loosed, and he began to speak, praising God.
65 The neighbors were all filled with awe, and throughout the hill country of Judea people were talking about all these things.
66 Everyone who heard this wondered about it, asking, "What then is this child going to be?" For the Lord's hand was with him.
67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people.
69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David
70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
71 salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us--
72 to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant,
73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,
78 because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
79 to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace."
80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.

In this passage, John the Baptist is six months in the womb, and Jesus is conceived about ten days when John leaped for joy because Mary was pregnant with the Messiah in his presence. I give that credibility that life begins at or very near conception.

Jeffrey

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57604 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:29 AM
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>>reports that abortion is safer than childbirth.<<

Not for the child.

Jeffrey


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Author: LUC95 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57605 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:19 AM
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I'm hoping as someone who would give Godly counsel to women to not have an abortion and not the abortion escorts.


Stockemup


Stockemup,

I would most likely volunteer to be an escort.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:21 AM
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Are you guys equating someone who will "harass" another person because of his skin color, sexual orientation, ethnic background, religious affiliation, etc. with someone who will "harass" another person about to participate in a human abortion?


Nope ShelbyBoy. I am saying tactics like this are pretty common in history. If a woman has a legal right to abort, then she should be left alone and not harassed.

Charlie

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Author: LUC95 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57607 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:24 AM
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Which had you rather I do at that point - continue "harrassing" the guys to try and protect an innocent person (you) or simply walk away and leave you at their mercy so I won't be guilty of harrassment?



Oh Shelby,

You crack me up with these situations you bring up. In this case the harasser is the abortioncam. So yeah I would go protect the woman.

Charlie

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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57615 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 9:52 AM
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>>What a nice thing to say; you must be one of those "real" Christians, >>I keep hearing about. I'm beginning to see why I can't be one.

lighten up sneak...it was simply a joke, look back; you will note that I have never jumped into the 'Christian/Mormon' debate. I don't plan to now.

peace

mick

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Author: Sneakpuff Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57617 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 10:07 AM
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lighten up sneak...it was simply a joke, look back; you will note that I have never jumped into the 'Christian/Mormon' debate. I don't plan to now.

OK, I'm mellow HMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMMM



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Author: KnickMick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57618 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 10:18 AM
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and mellow is a wonderful way to head into a weekend.....think I'll join you- HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

mick

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57620 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 10:54 AM
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Charlie said
I would most likely volunteer to be an escort.

Sincerely, why would you choose to help a woman do something that likely will emotionally and mentally devastate her for life in addition to the taking of a precious life created by God whom you profess to serve?

Would you still make this same volunteer effort for a woman who was obviously pregnant, say in her 6th month or later or pregnancy, where viability outside the womb is most likely?


Stockemup

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57621 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 10:59 AM
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Charlie said
If a woman has a legal right to abort, then she should be left alone and not harassed.


In 1930's and early 40's Germany it became legal to harass and eventually torture and kill various groups of people, as well, as even you have pointed out.

Should we have just stayed out of that one as well and let those people and government make their choice? Legally, it was fine. Morally is was abhorrent, so what would the answer be?



Stockemup

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 11:57 AM
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Would you still make this same volunteer effort for a woman who was obviously pregnant, say in her 6th month or later or pregnancy, where viability outside the womb is most likely?


Stockemup


While it would distress me to do that....yes I would.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 11:59 AM
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Should we have just stayed out of that one as well and let those people and government make their choice? Legally, it was fine. Morally is was abhorrent, so what would the answer be?



Back in the 30's and 40's the US did both. We did not lift a finger to help any of those people in the 30's. Churchill begged us to enter the war many times. Roosevelt held out as long as possible. So we worked both sides of the fence on this one(which is the american way at times).

Charlie



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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57627 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:04 PM
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Charlie said
While it would distress me to do that....yes I would.

If it would distress you to assist, and the reasons why aren't hard to understand, in the obvious taking of a human life, why would you do it? Why not be one of those peaceful and Godly street counselors instead?


Stockemup

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57628 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 12:15 PM
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Charlie said
Back in the 30's and 40's the US did both. We did not lift a finger to help any of those people in the 30's. Churchill begged us to enter the war many times. Roosevelt held out as long as possible. So we worked both sides of the fence on this one(which is the american way at times).


Based upon this statement then, peaceful and Godly street counselors should wait no more to be more proactive in doing all they can to stop abortion??

As for your comment about not lifting a finger to help, I think several million dead and wounded soldiers from our country and a few others would beg to differ with you. While it may not have come as quick as it could have, it did still come and that is why they are known as the Greatest Generation ever.

As for the tides of war, it is always going to be a question as to where and when to get involved. Witness the continued slaughter of millions of Christians in Sudan and neighboring countries. This is just one example where people are being slaughtered for their religious values as much as their heritage.

The key to getting involved in any conflict has to be balanced with the threat to America. Cruel and heartless as that may sound, it is a reality. If we throw that one out and get involved everywhere, then we'll be the world police, our military will cease to exist to perform the role the Constitution established it for and we will be giving up more American lives than ever before.



Stockemup

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:01 PM
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If it would distress you to assist, and the reasons why aren't hard to understand, in the obvious taking of a human life, why would you do it? Why not be one of those peaceful and Godly street counselors instead?


Because I believe a woman has a right to choose. I would be betraying that belief if I did otherwise.

Charlie

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Author: LUC95 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57630 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:05 PM
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As for your comment about not lifting a finger to help, I think several million dead and wounded soldiers from our country and a few others would beg to differ with you. While it may not have come as quick as it could have, it did still come and that is why they are known as the Greatest Generation ever.


So where were they in during the 1930's when Churchill begged for assistance? Where were they when the first reports of Nazi atrocities came to light?

Yes our troops did a wonderful job when called upon. The sad part is it took too long to get involved. I attribute that to isolationists of the 30's(who are similar to the isolationists of today).

Back to the immediate topic.... I have seen a few of these "peaceful" people in the past. They did not appear too peaceful when I saw them.

Charlie

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57631 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:09 PM
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Charlie said
Because I believe a woman has a right to choose. I would be betraying that belief if I did otherwise.

While I strongly agree that someone should hold firmly to their beliefs, aren't you at the same time betraying your beliefs in God by not holding the sanctity of innocent life created by God to be more important than a woman's choice?

BTW, I want to thank you for this frank discussion and your genuineness in it. While we may not agree, it is very kind of you to engage this discussion in such a polite tone and I want you to know I am not trying to trap you into any anwers. I am just replying with the thoughts that come to mind when I read your responses.


Stockemup

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Author: DiabloQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57632 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:10 PM
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In 1930's and early 40's Germany it became legal to harass and eventually torture and kill various groups of people, as well, as even you have pointed out.

Should we have just stayed out of that one as well and let those people and government make their choice? Legally, it was fine. Morally is was abhorrent, so what would the answer be?



Poor example. We were staying out of that one (tecnhically, anyway*) until Germany declared war on us. So you're asking if we should just ignore it if another country declares war on the US?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/waryears/war_index_1941.shtml
The Japanese, tired with American trade embargoes, mounted a surprise attack on the US Navy base of Pearl Harbour in Hawaii on 7th December. Global conflict commenced with Germany declaring war on the USA a few days later.

http://www.historychannel.com/
On December 7 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, whereupon Hitler made still another mistake. He declared war on America, thus saving President Roosevelt from the risk of incurring the opposition of German-Americans by asking Congress to declare war on Germany first.

-- Fran


*I say technically because while we weren't at war with Gemany until December 1941, we were assisitng Britian through lend-lease





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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57633 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:16 PM
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Charlie said
Back to the immediate topic.... I have seen a few of these "peaceful" people in the past. They did not appear too peaceful when I saw them

While I have not known your encounters of protesters, mine have been just the opposite of yours.

My mother and sister both have walked many a protest line including the Wichita abortion clinic where one of the few abortionists in the nation who performs 3rd trimester abortions does his evil deeds. They have also organized many protests as well. For a time, my mother was head of Kansans for Life. One of their key stipulations to protesters was peaceful and prayerful protests and they rarely had a problem with it.

As for what you have seen, why not set the standard for these people as a peaceful and Godly protester and counselor rather than just taking the other side because you have witnessed the few bad eggs if you will?


Stockemup

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:19 PM
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While I strongly agree that someone should hold firmly to their beliefs, aren't you at the same time betraying your beliefs in God by not holding the sanctity of innocent life created by God to be more important than a woman's choice?


Perhaps I am. I get the feeling you see this as a black and white issue. I do not think it is as simple as that. Obviously we have a difference in our views on this. I have gone over previously my views on abortion, so I will not repeat. Just know this is a grey area.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:20 PM
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As for what you have seen, why not set the standard for these people as a peaceful and Godly protester and counselor rather than just taking the other side because you have witnessed the few bad eggs if you will?


I am not taking the opposite stance just because of bad eggs. I am taking the stance because I believe in a woman's right to choose.

Charlie

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57636 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:23 PM
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DQ said
Poor example. We were staying out of that one (tecnhically, anyway*) until Germany declared war on us. So you're asking if we should just ignore it if another country declares war on the US?

That was the point I was trying to make. We could have gotten involved sooner as Charlie pointed out we should have, but it wasn't a security threat to us until they declared war against us. That was even though several of our cargo ships on their way to Great Britain were sunk before we became officially involved.

Ultimately the point I was making is when do we find the sacrifice of innocent life important enough to get involved in some way rather than just looking the other way or using the thought process of its just a woman's choice even though men play a 50% role in this process and should be held accountable.


Stockemup

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57637 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:27 PM
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Charlie said
Perhaps I am. I get the feeling you see this as a black and white issue. I do not think it is as simple as that. Obviously we have a difference in our views on this. I have gone over previously my views on abortion, so I will not repeat. Just know this is a grey area.


Okay, then lets make this a black and white issue for the purposes of this discussion. Lets narrow the scope of your choice for women as you see it.

Do you think it more important to defend the choice of women to have an abortion from the 5th month on when the inutero baby is viable outside the womb or is protection of that baby more important and in line with what God would require us to defend?


Stockemup

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57638 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 1:29 PM
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Charlie said
I am not taking the opposite stance just because of bad eggs. I am taking the stance because I believe in a woman's right to choose.


Okay, then for the purposes of narrowing the scope as I previously indicated, what about the right of the baby to choose life from the 5th month on when it is viable outside the womb?


Stockemup

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 2:14 PM
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Do you think it more important to defend the choice of women to have an abortion from the 5th month on when the inutero baby is viable outside the womb or is protection of that baby more important and in line with what God would require us to defend?



I do not think there is a simple answer for your question. I know you want me to have a narrow definition on this issue, but I don't. I would love for that child to be born, and then later put up for adoption. I would be the first in line to adopt that child. If the law says the woman is permitted to have an abortion at such a late stage, then I would have to back that.

Charlie



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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 2:15 PM
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Okay, then for the purposes of narrowing the scope as I previously indicated, what about the right of the baby to choose life from the 5th month on when it is viable outside the womb?


And who is expressing this for the baby?

Charlie

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57645 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 2:27 PM
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Charlie said
I would be the first in line to adopt that child. If the law says the woman is permitted to have an abortion at such a late stage, then I would have to back that.


I'm not questioning your desire and wishes to follow the law. What I am questioning is that you said you'd desire to be one of the escorts into the PP clinics. Be a peaceful and Godly counselor and protestor out on the sidewalk is a legal action as well and it does have positive results. Why not choose that role rather than assist the taking of life?

Remember, I'm not questioning following the law here, only wondering why it is more important to you to assist women seeking abortions than peacefully and legally doing what you can to preserve as much life as you can.


Stockemup

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57646 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 2:35 PM
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Charlie said
And who is expressing this for the baby?

Well, for one, God is considering the sanctity of life and what the ten commandments say regarding this.

Second, do you think if babies could speak they'd choose death over adoption?

Third, my point isn't to believe that a baby can literally say from the womb they choose life, but if you've never seen The Silent Scream, then you ought to and it might indicate a babies answer.

Your statement brings up a related and analogous situation. What about invalids or others in life that can't speak, care for, or express themselves, yet are alive because others assist them. Who expresses their desire for life for them? A baby inutero from 5.5 months on is now usually viable thanks to advances in medicine, so their life is equally existent as an invalid. What is the difference and is there really one?

My point is I think we have to speak for those who are unable in their defense lest the value of life become even more lessened due to convenience or some other related cause.


Stockemup

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 2:45 PM
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Why not choose that role rather than assist the taking of life?


All I can tell you is I support a woman's right to choose. It is not for me to tell her she does not have that right, or that somehow it is wrong. I have no other answer for you. Other than I am sorry we disagree.

Charlie

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Author: BermudaKen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57648 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 3:07 PM
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All I can tell you is I support a woman's right to choose.

I am with you on this. It seems rather simple to me. If a woman finds it inconvenient to go to Chicago, then she has the right not to get on the train going to Chicago. If a woman does not want to have a baby, she has every right not to get pregnant. If she does not want to get pregnant, she has every right not to have sex, or to use a method(s)of contraception.
Shelbyboy provided us with the stats about abortion. Approx. 1% of all abortions in the US came as a result of rape or some other criminal activity, against the woman's will. The other 1,000,000 or so abortions were performed because the baby would be an inconvience. I support the right of a woman to choose so much so, that I think that right should apply to the females still in the womb. Can't allow only a certain group of woman have the right to choose without extending it to all women.

But in all candor, I tell you simply and plainly, abortion is murder. No one has that "right" regardless of the law.

M


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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57649 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 3:11 PM
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Charlie said in post 57605:
I would most likely volunteer to be an escort.


stockemup asked:
...Why not be one of those peaceful and Godly street counselors instead?


Charlie responded:
Because I believe a woman has a right to choose. I would be betraying that belief if I did otherwise.



Charlie:
How would your being a peaceful and Godly street counselor interfere with the woman's right to choose?

Women in the U.S. choose abortion about 1.3 million times per year. Women in the U.S. choose birth many millions of times per year.

Obviously the absence or presence of Charlie the abortion center escort has no impact on the existence of the right to choose.

Also obvious is that the absence or presence of Charlie the peaceful and Godly street counselor has no impact on the existence of the right to choose.

However, the presence of Charlie the peaceful and Godly street counselor would conceivably assist the woman in making a better informed choice, assuming you provide her with information she didn't have before you counseled her.

The presence of Charlie the abortion center escort will most often assist women not in simply exercising their right to choose - but in assisting women in exercising their right to choose abortion.

If you are concerned about a woman's right to choose and make informed decisions and you decide to take action towards that concern - you probably shouldn't be either an escort or a counselor.

You could better accomplish your goal by serving as a "referree" outside of an abortion clinic. As a woman approaches, you could tell the escorts to wait a few minutes while a counselor provided information.

After the woman had a few minutes to consider the information and ask a few questions, you could then tell the counselor to step back and then accompany the woman and the escort inside the clinic.

Once inside, you could make sure the abortion center workers also simply provide her with information, answer questions, etc. and allow her all the time she needs to make an informed decision.

If she decided to proceed with the abortion at that time, you could simply be there to offer support or return to the outside to referree another arrival.

If she decided against the abortion or if she decided to leave, consider the information and make a decision later, you would be there to assure that the abortion center workers don't try to stop or delay her and that the counselors outside also don't try to further influence her.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57650 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 3:15 PM
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Shelb,

Just want to say that i am "pro-choice" in the sense that it is an individual choice for every person, and a law banning abortion won't make anyone more moral. BUT, i agree 100% with everything in your post. I was actually thinking pretty much everything you wrote as stock and Charlie debated, but had yet to put it into words.

Well said.

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Author: stockemup Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57651 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 3:28 PM
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Charlie said
All I can tell you is I support a woman's right to choose. It is not for me to tell her she does not have that right, or that somehow it is wrong. I have no other answer for you. Other than I am sorry we disagree.


As I said before and now Shelbyboy has chimed in on with agreement. I am not challenging the legal aspect of abortion at this time. What I am challenging is your desire to apparently be more in support of women getting an abortion than not. How do I arrive at this notion? Well, since your desire seems to be more focused on getting women into the clinic to get the abortion than to make sure they are aware of the life they are taking by counseling them out on the sidewalk beforehand if they are open to counsel.

I am, also, not telling to take away her rights but rather to make sure she realizes the full scope of what she is doing as many women are of the prevailing view that it is not life including from 5.5 months on.

While you have no other answer for me, I reiterate my appreciation for your participation in this back and forth debate. I find it healthy, refreshing, and invigorating when two or more people with different views can express them and attempt to change views in a cordial and polite sense.

Charlie, may God bless you in your life and help you through times of trial and thank you again. I am sorry, too, that we disagree but glad we can peacefully share those thoughts.


Stockemup

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 3:45 PM
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.... BUT, i agree 100% with everything in your post. I was actually thinking pretty much everything you wrote as stock and Charlie debated, but had yet to put it into words.


I think it would be very informative to watch the results if someone actually decided to do this.

There would be some revealing differences of opinion among the current "pro-life" or "anti-abortion" folks.

Likewise, it would reveal who among the "pro-choice" crowd is really "pro-choice" and who is really "pro-abortion-choice."


ShelbyBoy

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Author: kristanmaddox Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57654 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 4:02 PM
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M,

If a woman finds it inconvenient to go to Chicago, then she has the right not to get on the train going to Chicago. If a woman does not want to have a baby, she has every right not to get pregnant...

Only allowed one rec...

In Christ.

KM

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57658 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 4:40 PM
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>>I'm hoping as someone who would give Godly counsel to women to not have an abortion and not the abortion escorts.


Stockemup


Stockemup,

I would most likely volunteer to be an escort.

Charlie <<

S & C,

Why would these women need an escort? That implies they need to be protected from something. If pro-life supporters are trying to inform women about their alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, help with education and medical bills, and inform them of the consequences of abortion, such as the psychological effect that will last the rest of their life, then these women are not likely in any danger from the pro-life supporters.

They are trying to ensure that the woman makes an informed decision that is irreversible. There should be no rush to abort, and pro-lifers want all women to know there will be long-term implications, long after that abortion clinic is closed and gone. Where will they get the psychological and spiritual support they will need years down the road? They can look on the brochure handed to them by the pro-lifer. Our church staff will be there for the woman whether she keeps the baby, puts it up for adoption, or kills it. Without being judgmental, just offering support in any way needed, and for the rest of her life. We also assist with those who need forgiveness after realizing the abortion was a mistake, an irretrievable mistake. Abortion supporters can only offer "Don't worry about your abortion, it was only a mass of tissue, and besides, there is no God, so you won't be held accountable." Little comfort to someone hurting from the inside out in a universe that has the signature of God all over it.

No pro-lifer is going to be any threat to a pregnant woman. We are trying to save the baby and the mother, harming the mother does not accomplish that, informing the mother might. How many women have later regretted their decision to abort? How many have come to Christ after the fact? Our church has hundreds of them and a very active support group. Many of these women are the ones standing outside the clinics, praying for the women and children inside. If these women need protection from anything, it is those who have a pro-abortion agenda, not pro-life.

Jeffrey

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 4:45 PM
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However, the presence of Charlie the peaceful and Godly street counselor would conceivably assist the woman in making a better informed choice, assuming you provide her with information she didn't have before you counseled her.

The presence of Charlie the abortion center escort will most often assist women not in simply exercising their right to choose - but in assisting women in exercising their right to choose abortion.


Glad to know you are so concerned about my alleged new career as an escort. <g>

I could not choose to be a religious street counselor on this issue. For one thing I think this choice is between the woman and God. It is not my place to say.

As far as my ever being an escort, I would assume my job is to make sure the woman arrives to the doctor without physical harm, so in that sense it would not be my place to offer advice on her decision. I would leave that to a doctor or counselor.

I am sorry you all have a hard time with my thoughts on this.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 4:56 PM
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What I am challenging is your desire to apparently be more in support of women getting an abortion than not.


I think you have mistaken my position. I am in support of a woman taking ownership of her body, and making choices about her pregnancy. The choices are: keep the baby, adoption, abortion(unless there are options I have not thought of).


Charlie

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57666 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:03 PM
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>> If the law says the woman is permitted to have an abortion at such a late stage, then I would have to back that.<<

Charlie,

So, you are just trying to be a law-abiding citizen then, protecting the rights of others. Don't pro-lifers have the right to communicate with these women without interference from escorts?

Do you also support laws about marriage in this country, or do you support changing those laws to recognise homosexual unions as equivalent to marriage?

Jeffrey



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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:10 PM
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>>Charlie said
I would be the first in line to adopt that child. If the law says the woman is permitted to have an abortion at such a late stage, then I would have to back that.<<

Charlie,

You will be far more likely to be able to adopt that baby if it is not aborted.

Jeffrey


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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57668 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:22 PM
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>>I am in support of a woman taking ownership of her body, and making choices about her pregnancy. The choices are: keep the baby, adoption, abortion(unless there are options I have not thought of).<<


Charlie,

As someone else posted, the choice begins with the decision to have unprotected sex for 99% of these women, many of whom are not having their first abortion, but using it as their method of birth control after the fact of conception. If they could be convinced they are terminating the life of their child, no human would choose to do that if there was ANY alternative, which there is. THAT is taking ownership of their body. Abortion is where the mother takes ownership of the baby's dead body. It should be given to her for burial.

Jeffrey

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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57671 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:26 PM
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As someone else posted, the choice begins with the decision to have unprotected sex for 99% of these women, many of whom are not having their first abortion, but using it as their method of birth control after the fact of conception.

Do you have any proof of this? Any verifiable statistics that show that "many" women have more than one abortion?

The only women i've ever talked to about it have said that it was a very difficult decision and one that affected them very deeply for a long time. I find it hard to believe that any more than a tiny handful would go through it twice.

Plus, it is an awfully expensive form of birth control. After they have one, it seems likely they'd switch to a more standard, economical form of birth control.

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Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57672 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:26 PM
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Having unprotected sex and having abortions are both refusals to accept responsibility for one's own actions.

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Author: tedhimself Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57676 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:35 PM
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Having unprotected sex and having abortions are both refusals to accept responsibility for one's own actions.

I hit "Enter" too fast. I was trying to say

Having unprotected sex and having abortions are both refusals to accept responsibility for one's own actions (in regard to the child that is created by these actions).

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57679 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:42 PM
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>>Do you have any proof of this? Any verifiable statistics that show that "many" women have more than one abortion?

The only women i've ever talked to about it have said that it was a very difficult decision and one that affected them very deeply for a long time. I find it hard to believe that any more than a tiny handful would go through it twice.

Plus, it is an awfully expensive form of birth control. After they have one, it seems likely they'd switch to a more standard, economical form of birth control. <<

Someone else posted that only 1% were due to rape or incest, and I have seen these numbers before in my church and sources I consider reputable. I do not have any net links, and do not have time to search right now, but it should not be too difficult to find.

It is expensive if you have to pay for it. For many women, the father has agreed to pay for it, or it is free thanks to the taxpayers and abortion supporters.

Abstainance is free.

Jeffrey


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Author: glampig Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57681 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:50 PM
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tedhimself,

< Having unprotected sex and having abortions are both refusals to accept responsibility for one's own actions (in regard to the child that is created by these actions). >

jeffreyw,

< Abstainance is free. >

You guys get right down to the bottom line.

Rick, the glampig

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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57682 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:51 PM
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"Nope ShelbyBoy. I am saying tactics like this are pretty common in history. If a woman has a legal right to abort, then she should be left alone and not harassed."

Yeah. And nobody should have harassed those slave owners either.

Those escorting women into abortion clinics are the modern day equivalents of slave-catchers.

God bless,

Rich



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Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57684 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 5:56 PM
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"Back to the immediate topic.... I have seen a few of these "peaceful" people in the past. They did not appear too peaceful when I saw them."

Yes, well, when they are peaceful, as the vast majority are, they don't get on the news.

God bless,

Rich



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Author: LUC95 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57686 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:07 PM
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Don't pro-lifers have the right to communicate with these women without interference from escorts?

Do you also support laws about marriage in this country, or do you support changing those laws to recognise homosexual unions as equivalent to marriage?


I believe the pro-life movement has plenty of opportunity to speak their minds as long as they are not interfering with access to the clinic or Planned Parenthood office.

As for your other issue, first of all one of the dumbest laws EVER passed was DOMA, Defense of Marriage Act. How insecure of the heterosexual community to think they need such laws.

Not all gay people support legislating gay marriages or unions. As for me, I think that is a cart before the horse issue. You can not expect society to recognize your union, when they do not regard you as equal. Do I think the union of two gay people equals the union of two heterosexuals? Yes. Though I think a law stating that is not the way to go.

Charlie



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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:08 PM
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Charlie,

You will be far more likely to be able to adopt that baby if it is not aborted.

Jeffrey



Not if the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, or other extreme groups have their say.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:16 PM
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For whatever reason this thread has turned into my view on choice. I get the feeling you folks I am pro-abortion. I have never said any such thing. I have stated in this thread, and in past threads I am pro-choice. And by that I do not mean PC way of saying abortion. I mean choice.

I wish women never felt abortion was an option, but it is. As long as it is I support the fact that an individual has a choice in the matter. As for the issue of choice in regards to having sex, I say push hard for good sex education. Push for sex education that stresses the importance of abstinance. But also balance it with the message that there are precautions to take if you have sex.

If you want to keep going over this issue with me, I have no problem with that. I am happy to continue, but please don't look at my position thinking I am pro-abortion.

Thanks,
Charlie



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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57691 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:19 PM
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>>Don't pro-lifers have the right to communicate with these women without interference from escorts?

Do you also support laws about marriage in this country, or do you support changing those laws to recognise homosexual unions as equivalent to marriage?


I believe the pro-life movement has plenty of opportunity to speak their minds as long as they are not interfering with access to the clinic or Planned Parenthood office.

As for your other issue, first of all one of the dumbest laws EVER passed was DOMA, Defense of Marriage Act. How insecure of the heterosexual community to think they need such laws.

Not all gay people support legislating gay marriages or unions. As for me, I think that is a cart before the horse issue. You can not expect society to recognize your union, when they do not regard you as equal. Do I think the union of two gay people equals the union of two heterosexuals? Yes. Though I think a law stating that is not the way to go. <<

Charlie,

I see. So you only support the laws you agree with. I suspected as much.
I am pretty much the same way.

Jeffrey


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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57692 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:20 PM
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>>Charlie,

You will be far more likely to be able to adopt that baby if it is not aborted.

Jeffrey



Not if the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, or other extreme groups have their say.<<

Charlie,

True, but if the baby is aborted, your chance is nil.

Jeffrey

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57695 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 6:36 PM
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>>Push for sex education that stresses the importance of abstinance. But also balance it with the message that there are precautions to take if you have sex.<<

Those are conflicting statements to teenagers. You can't tell them not to have sex, then say, if you do have sex, here's how to do it to minimize the risk of death.

Only abstainance will keep them free from any possibility of disease and the hurt that comes from a failed sexual relationship, and the accountability of both parents of an unplanned pregnancy. Condoms, pills and other birth-control methods might save them from disease or pregnancy, but does not teach them about the context of sex within marriage as God granted it to us. That is the only relationship where we are free to enjoy all that God has made wonderful in the union of a virgin man and woman for as long as they both shall live. See Adam and Eve.

Teenagers see right through the abstainance message when given false information about "safe" sex. There is no safe sex in any other context except two virgins joined for one lifetime together. Every other context has risks that virgin marriage does not.


A message about precautions fully negates the message of abstainance before marriage, and teenagers (rightly) see that kind of messenger as a hypocrite.

Jeffrey


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Author: LUC95 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57703 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 8:48 PM
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I see. So you only support the laws you agree with. I suspected as much.
I am pretty much the same way.


That is not what I was saying. Not sure how you came to that broad sweep. Then again, it might be amusing to hear.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 8:49 PM
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True, but if the baby is aborted, your chance is nil.

Jeffrey

My chance is nil if those groups gain any power. So it is even I suppose.

Charlie

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 8:54 PM
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A message about precautions fully negates the message of abstainance before marriage, and teenagers (rightly) see that kind of messenger as a hypocrite.

I disagree. Look we know abstinance is the best message. We also know though that there are kids out there having sex. When explaining sex you need to teach responsibility. That means: A) You should not have sex before marriage, or before you are in a committed relationship(if you are a gay teen). B) Be responsible for your actions. If you have to have sex, at least take precautions(even though there is not 100% safety). C) Understand if you have sex there are consequences.

I think that is a pretty fair handed message.

Charlie

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Author: Jeffreyw Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57707 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 9:02 PM
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>>A message about precautions fully negates the message of abstainance before marriage, and teenagers (rightly) see that kind of messenger as a hypocrite.

I disagree. Look we know abstinance is the best message. We also know though that there are kids out there having sex. When explaining sex you need to teach responsibility. That means: A) You should not have sex before marriage, or before you are in a committed relationship(if you are a gay teen). B) Be responsible for your actions. If you have to have sex, at least take precautions(even though there is not 100% safety). C) Understand if you have sex there are consequences.

I think that is a pretty fair handed message.<<

Charlie,

In that context, I don't disagree. It is what we have taught our oldest (including the gay part!) and will likely teach the rest at the appropriate time. Where I tend to shrink from this is when it is presented in our schools along with free condoms and information about where to obtain an abortion.

Jeffrey

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Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 9:20 PM
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Jeffrey,

I really do not know you, or the experience you have had, but so many parents are scared to talk about sex, and the idea of a condom most likely terrifies them. So the alternative seems to be the schools.

My parents did not talk about sex. My mom handed me a book and said I would learn all I needed there. Schools taught me about "reproductive systems." No one talked to me about sex and what it all means. I just wanted someone to tell me in simple terms about sex.

I went and learned on my own. For many kids that can mean disease, pregnancy, rape, and heartache.

Now you can agree or disagree, but someone speaking plainly about sex, condoms, abortions, gay or straight, disease, pregnancy, marriage, and responsibility can help. It can come from the home or the school, or both, but someone needs to do it.


Charlie

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Author: BrotherAndrew Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57711 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 10:13 PM
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Charlie,

Would you mind clarify your role…

Have you actually escorted pregnant women to abortion clinics?

If you have escorted pregnant women to abortion clinics, about how many times have you done this? If it is too many to count, then just say so.

Brother Andrew


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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57716 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 11:21 PM
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Someone said:
As someone else posted, the choice begins with the decision to have unprotected sex for 99% of these women, many of whom are not having their first abortion, but using it as their method of birth control after the fact of conception.


Bonhoeffer asked:
Do you have any proof of this? Any verifiable statistics that show that "many" women have more than one abortion?




Bonhoeffer:

Each year, 2 out of every 100 women aged 15-44 in the U.S. have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion and 55% have had a previous birth.


ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57717 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 11:32 PM
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Bonhoeffer said:
Plus, it is an awfully expensive form of birth control. After they have one, it seems likely they'd switch to a more standard, economical form of birth control.




Bonhoeffer:

Here's another statistic - 50% of women who have abortions use it as their sole means of birth control.


ShelbyBoy


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Author: Bonhoeffer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57718 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/17/2001 11:34 PM
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Thanks for the stats. Can you point me to where you got them?

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57720 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/18/2001 12:01 AM
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Here is a somewhat thorough article on sex education:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/family/failure.htm


Excerpts:

"Comprehensive sex education," mandated in seventeen states, is the educational fad of the hour, yet there is little evidence that it "works"--prevents teenage pregnancy and stanches the spread of sexually transmitted disease. Defended by its professional-class originators as "getting real" about teenage sex, it fails to speak to the grim reality of what the author calls "the new sexual revolution" among the young

-----------------------------------------------

But on second glance there is something radically new about comprehensive sex education. As both a philosophy and a pedagogy, it is rooted in a deeply technocratic understanding of teenage sexuality. It assumes that once teenagers acquire a formal body of sex knowledge and skills, along with the proper contraceptive technology, they will be able to govern their own sexual behavior responsibly. In brief, what comprehensive sex education envisions is a regime of teenage sexual self-rule.

The sex educators offer their technocratic approach as an alternative to what they see as a failed effort to regulate teenage sexuality through social norms and religious values. Face facts. In a climate of sexual freedom the old standard of sexual conduct for teenagers--a standard separate from adult sexual standards--is breaking down. Increasingly teenagers are playing by the same sexual rules as adults. Therefore, why withhold from adolescents the information and technologies that are available to adults?

To be sure, sex educators have a point. Traditional sexual morality, along with the old codes of social conduct, is demonstrably less effective today than it once was in governing teenage sexual conduct. But although moral standards can exist even in the midst of a breakdown of morality, a technocratic view cannot be sustained if the techniques fizzle. Thus comprehensive sex education stands or falls on the proven effectiveness of its techniques.

---------------------------------------------------------

Yet the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that sexual knowledge is only weakly related to teenage sexual behavior. The researcher Douglas Kirby, of ETR Associates, a nonprofit health-education firm in Santa Cruz, California, has been studying sex-education programs for more than a decade. During the 1980s he conducted a major study of the effectiveness of sex-education programs for the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, and he has since completed a review for the Centers for Disease Control of all published research on school-based sex-education programs designed to reduce the risks of unprotected sex. His research shows that students who take sex education do know more about such matters as menstruation, intercourse, contraception, pregnancy, and sexually transmitted diseases than students who do not. (Thanks to federal funding for AIDS education in the schools, students tend to be very knowledgeable about the sources and prevention of HIV infection.)

But more accurate knowledge does not have a measurable impact on sexual behavior. As it is typically taught, sex education has little effect on teenagers' decisions to engage in or postpone sex. Nor, according to Kirby, do knowledge-based sex-education programs significantly reduce teenage pregnancy. And although teenagers who learn about contraception may be more likely to use it, their contraceptive practices tend to be irregular and therefore ultimately unreliable.

Comprehensive sex education assumes that knowledge acquired at earlier ages will influence behavior. Yet the empirical evidence suggests that younger teenagers, especially, are unlikely to act on what they know. An analysis of a Planned Parenthood survey concludes that a "knowledgeable thirteen-year-old is no more likely to use contraceptives than is an uninformed thirteen-year-old." As Kirby puts it, "Ignorance is not the solution, but knowledge is not enough."






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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57721 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/18/2001 12:05 AM
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I could not choose to be a religious street counselor on this issue. For one thing I think this choice is between the woman and God. It is not my place to say.


Will you provide a couple of examples of issues on which you could be a religious street counselor?

ShelbyBoy

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Author: ShelbyBoy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57723 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/18/2001 12:09 AM
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Thanks for the stats. Can you point me to where you got them?


Most came from the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which I understand is the public education arm of Planned Parenthood
http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

The stat about 50% of women using abortion as their sole means of birth control came from www.family.org which indicated they also got that stat from the Alan Guttmacher Institute.

ShelbyBoy

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57725 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/18/2001 12:25 AM
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"I think this choice is between the woman and God."

Yeah, but Charlie...do you really think we worship a spineless God? I mean, imagine two pregnant women going before Him. Do you suppose He'd say to one "You have a supportive and loving husband and the financial means to raise a child in a loving home, you must carry this child to term." and to another, "Oh, go ahead, have the abortion. I know you're young and you're not ready." Do you honestly think, especially in regard to a helpless and dependent human life, that He would give two completely opposite answers?

In my opinion, the only choice between the woman and God is how to raise the child, not whether she's going to abort or carry it to term. If a woman ever tried to tell me that she asked God and He gave her the okay to abort, I'd have to answer in all sincerity that she ever asked Him.

Pam

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Author: HisDelight Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 57727 of 196448
Subject: Re: Abortioncams Date: 8/18/2001 12:32 AM
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never asked Him.

Goodnight JohnBoy, goodnight MaryEllen, goodnight Grandma, goodnight moon...

:-)

Pam

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Author: ShelbyBoy