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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 62981  
Subject: Afghan report Date: 3/10/2007 10:39 AM
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http://www.parl.gc.ca/39/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/com-e/defe-e/rep-e/repFeb07-e.pdf

Seattle P. wanted me to post this here. A no-nonsense look at the Afghan situation.

buzman
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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3183 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/10/2007 5:29 PM
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Seattle P. wanted me to post this here. A no-nonsense look at the Afghan situation.

buzman


Why?

Ours is an enormously difficult task. Meanwhile, the task of our enemy - the Taliban and some regional warlords – is relatively easy. They don't have to win major battles. They only need to keep attracting disaffected people to their cause; use those people to disrupt reform; and persist for as many years as it takes for Canada and our allies to lose heart.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/39/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/com-e/defe-e/rep-e/repFeb07-e.pdf

This is not headline news. It's exactly the same problem we face in Iraq: they're at home, we're away. They don't have to "defeat" us, they just need to make us irrelevant, and eventually we will go away. We cannot stay forever, no one, not even the neocons said it was our plan to occupy the country forever.

Albaby1 has been saying it for months (with regard to Iraq.)
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25076286

We had a shot in Iraq, and through a series of utterly stupid and entirely foreseeable mistakes have rendered ourselves impotent. We had a shot in Afghanistan, and turned our attention elsewhere before that job was "mission accomplished", too.
 


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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3184 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/10/2007 6:19 PM
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Seattle P. wanted me to post this here. A no-nonsense look at the Afghan situation.

buzman

Why?



did at first seem odd......

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25269713&sort=whole#25269802


This is not headline news. It's exactly the same problem we face in Iraq: they're at home, we're away. They don't have to "defeat" us, they just need to make us irrelevant, and eventually we will go away. We cannot stay forever, no one, not even the neocons said it was our plan to occupy the country forever.
<>

We had a shot in Iraq, and through a series of utterly stupid and entirely foreseeable mistakes have rendered ourselves impotent. We had a shot in Afghanistan, and turned our attention elsewhere before that job was "mission accomplished", too.


it's 'news' to some that Afghanistan isn't quite total, glorious Victory ....


"same problem" because 'same' plan with same 'leaders' ..... ie, you didn't really have much of a shot at winning Afghanistan.


=

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3188 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/10/2007 8:13 PM
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WHY? The Goofster asked.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dunno, a favorite game at the CampFIRE is to mock RELE. Oops that's when they aren't waving GWB pom-poms.

buzman

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3189 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/11/2007 5:58 PM
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did at first seem odd......

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25269713&sort=whole#25269802


It was odd. I thought this response was telling:

Canadian Troops? Pah-leese. I read that far (the first two words). When Canada wants to pony up and put their money where their mouth is, and have a *real* military portional to their size, I'll read their report. Until that time? Shut up and hide behind the US, which from all I can see, is exactly where they feel most confortable.

The report of course was about Canada's military involvement in Afghanistan. Canada is about 1/10th the size of the US, population wise, and the number of Canadian troops in Afghanistan is bit more than 10% of US troops. And Canadians have had more than their share of causalities. There are plenty of videos on Youtube or Googlevideo of Canadian troops fighting bravely under fire. I don't understand the point or practicality of mocking their efforts, they have been a fine ally. This American would like to extend a hearty "thank you" to our Canadian cousins. Your efforts are greatly appreciated, despite what you might read on the other board.

For the last while, I've noticed a trend in foreign policy that mirrors the sentiments expressed on the other board. Namely telling other countries to get stuffed is more important than getting the job done. It didn't use to be like that. Nixon went to China, but it often forgotten he was also the first president to go to Moscow. Reagan met with Gorbachev five or six times. Reagan summed it up perfectly when he said that they weren't there to debate national purpose, but to find areas of common interest and agreement. Neither man was seen as weak on communism, they were seen as pragmatically advancing the interests of the United States--which they were. Trying to get the job done in other words.

Those days are dead. In 2003 Iran said they would like to talk about normalizing relations, in exchange they would end support of Hezbollah and Hamas. Who knows if it would have worked out, but it could have been quite a blow against organized terror and certainly would have taken some pressure off our ally, Israel. But instead of trying to get the job done, the Bush administration told Iran to get stuffed.

India and Pakistan both offered to send peace keeping troops to Iraq. It would have greatly helped with the security effort, and in the case of Pakistan in particular put a Muslim face on the operation. But they wanted to do it under a UN operation. Bush told them to get stuffed.

France and Germany offered to help with the reconstruction, but wanted some contracts in exchange. That would have made the reconstruction effort truly an international concern and brought in some badly needed additional first world economic power. Bush told them to get stuffed.

Of course, North Korea. They weren't offering anything other than not building a bomb, but they wanted to talk. Bush told them to get stuffed. They built a bomb and we would up giving them what they wanted anyway. That showed them.

The question you have to ask about each of those, is how did telling someone to get stuffed help the USA? How did telling those countries to get stuffed help advance our interests? It didn't. And in each case, the costs of making an agreement were relatively small, but the potential upside was huge. For example, what would we have lost by allowing India and Pakistan to send peace keepers to Iraq? Nothing. It is unknowable how things might have turned out otherwise, but in each case arrogance and hubris trumped trying to get the job done.

We see a little microcosm of this attitude in the other thread. They can't be bothered to read what Canadians have to say because they are...Canadians. Get stuffed Canada, in other words. Oh and if you read the report it says that Canada is in Afghanistan for the long haul and they believe it is important to succeed. But finding that out would require reading the words of Canadians.

I hope our next president will be able to mend some fences with our allies in the future. If we have any allies left by then.

















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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3190 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/11/2007 6:06 PM
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The question you have to ask about each of those, is how did telling someone to get stuffed help the USA? How did telling those countries to get stuffed help advance our interests?


makes US feel tough.

US are the baddest meanest toughest SOB in the Galaxy and are damn well going to act like it.

tough talk gets you elected ...


=

India and Pakistan both offered to send peace keeping troops to Iraq. It would have greatly helped with the security effort, and in the case of Pakistan in particular put a Muslim face on the operation. But they wanted to do it under a UN operation. Bush told them to get stuffed.

chicken or egg? ... didn't Bush first tell the UN to get stuffed?


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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3191 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/11/2007 6:31 PM
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If you care to see what is both graphically interesting & scary as Hell about the border lands of Pakistan & Afghanistan, todays N.Y.Times piece ought be quite informative.

If this link won't open, let me know & I will e-mail you the text.

Maps & history is of utmost importance.

This is a retirement issue by the way.

http://tinyurl.com/3xo5k4

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3192 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/11/2007 8:41 PM
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This is a retirement issue by the way.

http://tinyurl.com/3xo5k4


groan .... Genghis Khan & Tamerlane couldn't conquer those guys?


and somehow Bush was going to?



/>:

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3193 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/11/2007 9:34 PM
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chicken or egg? ... didn't Bush first tell the UN to get stuffed?

Pretty much, there could have easily been a new resolution for the peacekeeping force. India alone was discussing sending 17,000 troops. That's about double the number of British troops there right now. And compare that to the 20,000 or so Bush says are required for the troop surge.

But telling the UN to get stuffed was more important than succeeding in Iraq.


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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3194 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/11/2007 9:40 PM
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But telling the UN to get stuffed was more important than succeeding in Iraq.



yup.

telling the World to get stuffed was more important than almost anything.


=

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Author: tilnow One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3195 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/12/2007 11:41 AM
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I live on the border with Canada and regularly tune in to their national news report at 10 PM (or the website cbc.ca). All my life they've been our true friends, always there when we have needed them.

The day their fighter planes returned from the first Gulf War, we drove the hour north to Ottawa and sat on a snowy park bench to watch the victory flyover of Parliament--the last time that had happened had been after WWII.

The funerals of Canadian troops who lost their lives in Afghanistan are broadcast on TV with full military honors and dignity. Their nation mourns each and every one of them.

Our country must be grateful for such courageous and willing help.

tilnow



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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3223 of 62981
Subject: Re: Afghan report Date: 3/12/2007 5:20 PM
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Telling other people to "get stuffed" is the heart and soul of the PNAC mentality which suggests we are the only global power, ans as such, we don't need to negotiate.

How's that working so far?

But its a real tough dream for the neofascists, 'er' excuse me, neocons to give up.

Bring 'em on. You're with me or against me.

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