British Clinic Is Allowed to Deny Medicine

When her local health service refused to treat her breast cancer with the drug Herceptin, 54-year-old Ann Marie Rogers sued. But on Wednesday, a High Court judge ruled against her.

In his decision the judge, David Bean, said that although he sympathized with Ms. Rogers's predicament, the health service in Swindon, where she lives, had been justified in withholding the drug.

"The question for me is whether Swindon's policy is irrational and thus unlawful," Justice Bean wrote. "I cannot say it is."

The ruling has potentially serious implications for patients across the taxpayer-financed National Health Service.

Despite health officials' contention that decisions about treatment are based solely on clinical effectiveness, critics contend that with drugs growing ever more expensive, cost has become an increasingly important factor. They also say patients are at the mercy of the so-called postcode lottery, in which treatments are available in some postal zones but not others.

"This drug could save the lives of 1,000 women a year," Jeremy Hughes, chief executive of the lobbying group Breakthrough Breast Cancer, said of Herceptin. "It is unfair and cruel for women like Ann Marie Rogers to know that it is money and their postcode that stands between them and this potentially life-saving treatment."

Herceptin, made by Roche, is currently licensed for use in late-stage breast cancer. Although some studies have shown that it is also effective in treating HER-2 early-stage breast cancer, it has not yet been licensed for such use. If it does receive a license, the drug will be appraised for potential countrywide use.

Last fall, in response to a case in which a breast cancer patient threatened to sue her local health service, Patricia Hewitt, the health secretary, publicly praised Herceptin for its potential in early-stage breast cancer treatment...

This is from the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/16/international/europe/16cancer.html?pagewanted=print

Registration is free.


If Hillary had gotten her way, this kind of thing would be happening in the US also.

I just can't imagine the horror this poor woman is going through, knowing that there is a drug which can possibly save her and yet having her government refuse it to her based on cost.

I just can't imagine the horror this poor woman is going through, knowing that there is a drug which can possibly save her and yet having her government refuse it to her based on cost.


...as P.J. O'Rourke puts it: "If you think medical care is expensive now, wait until it's free"...

I just can't imagine the horror this poor woman is going through, knowing that there is a drug which can possibly save her and yet having her government refuse it to her based on cost.



Far less horrifying when a profitable HMO does the refusing...

Life without horror. Imagine that.

Far less horrifying when a profitable HMO does the refusing...
______________________


yes it is actually, you can choose a different HMO .

yes it is actually, you can choose a different HMO .



Or if you have no insurance in the US of A, you can enjoy the horror of waiting for the wealthy tax payers to purchase your desperately needed drugs. We are indeed fortunate! What a plan!

;-)

Or if you have no insurance in the US of A, you can enjoy the horror of waiting for the wealthy tax payers to purchase your desperately needed drugs.

_________________

Though not proud of it, I have had too many relatives on the dole for too long, to have any respect for this BS at all

Though not proud of it, I have had too many relatives on the dole for too long, to have any respect for this BS at all



I sure you don't give a damn about the horror the woman in the original post exeriences either...

Or if you have no insurance in the US of A, you can enjoy the horror of waiting for the wealthy tax payers to purchase your desperately needed drugs. We are indeed fortunate! What a plan!v

Or even - watch this - buy it yourself.

..yes it is actually, you can choose a different HMO . ...

Allowing benefit-specific waiting periods contradicts clear congressional intent.

A benefit-specific waiting period is contrary to congressional intent. One goal of HIPAA legislation was to address "job lock" that was caused by plans not covering new employees (and their dependents) if they had prior or existing medical conditions.

"Millions of Americans have medical histories or preexisting conditions that make it difficult to get comprehensive insurance coverage. As many as 81 million Americans have preexisting medical conditions that could affect their insurability. Many people are locked in their jobs because they fear they will be unable to obtain comprehensive insurance in new jobs."1

http://www.familiesusa.org/issues/private-insurance/comments-to-dol-re-hipaa-waiting-periods.html

Not with single payer healthcare. You are now free to move about the country.

Though not proud of it, I have had too many relatives on the dole for too long, to have any respect for this BS at all

====================================================

Thurst: I sure you don't give a damn about the horror the woman in the original post exeriences either...


====================================================

You have to love the moral superiority of those who are willing to pay any price USING OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY to demonstrate his compassion. He gives a damn, damn it, and is willing to spend your tax dollars to prove it!

And you cant get it if you dont have the money. And there ss nothing compelling them to sell it to you. Anybody who thinks everybody at every step along the way can just go around experiencing "endless free market choices" of medical insurance simply doesn't know how things work and there is no reason for them to make a statement like that.

..yes it is actually, you can choose a different HMO . ...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Allowing benefit-specific waiting periods contradicts clear congressional intent.

A benefit-specific waiting period is contrary to congressional intent. One goal of HIPAA legislation was to address "job lock" that was caused by plans not covering new employees (and their dependents) if they had prior or existing medical conditions.

"Millions of Americans have medical histories or preexisting conditions that make it difficult to get comprehensive insurance coverage. As many as 81 million Americans have preexisting medical conditions that could affect their insurability. Many people are locked in their jobs because they fear they will be unable to obtain comprehensive insurance in new jobs."1

http://www.familiesusa.org/issues/private-insurance/comments-to-dol-re-hipaa-waiting-periods.html

Not with single payer healthcare. You are now free to move about the country.

I sure you don't give a damn about the horror the woman in the original post exeriences either...

_________________________________

No you see I do, because it could happen to me, and there would be nothing I could do about it!! That makes me care very much actually.

I assume the first post is the one where the woman got shafted because of socialized medicine. I have read many such articles. Yes I have read about problems in the US too, but I have seen many peopel with NO COVERAGE, NO JOBS, get treatment, drugs, counseling etc.


I not only care, I combine it with thought. I do not know if you do or not, but based on your blind accussations I have my guess to be sure.

If Hillary had gotten her way, this kind of thing would be happening in the US also.

I just can't imagine the horror this poor woman is going through, knowing that there is a drug which can possibly save her and yet having her government refuse it to her based on cost. - OldOne
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was she not free to go outside the system and purchase private health insurance, over and above what the state provided? If there is a limited amount of money to be spent the state had to make some hard economic decisions.

I'm fatalist. You get what you get in life. Everyone dies eventually. - Art

Or if you have no insurance in the US of A, you can enjoy the horror of waiting for the wealthy tax payers to purchase your desperately needed drugs. We are indeed fortunate! What a plan!v

Or even - watch this - buy it yourself. - warrl
---------------------------------------------------------

<sarcasm on> "Yes, because it's so affordable!"<sarcasm off>

- Art

You have to love the moral superiority of those who are willing to pay any price USING OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY to demonstrate his compassion. He gives a damn, damn it, and is willing to spend your tax dollars to prove it!

prometheuss



Aren't my tax dollars paying for your healthcare?

Aren't my tax dollars paying for your healthcare?

How much are you paying in federal taxes?

Aren't my tax dollars paying for your healthcare?

How much are you paying in federal taxes?



For 2004 earnings it was $11,284.27.

Aren't my tax dollars paying for your healthcare?

======================================

How much are you paying in federal taxes?

======================================

For 2004 earnings it was $11,284.27.

======================================

Is that all? I paid well over twice as much in 2004. You are not even paying my taxes for me, yet.

Anyway, your contribution to federal individual income taxes is less than 0.0000015% of the total contributed, so it is unlikely that you are paying for my healthcare, or even paying much of my military retired pay, which cost a lot more.

Regards,
Prometheuss

Is that all? I paid well over twice as much in 2004. You are not even paying my taxes for me, yet.

Anyway, your contribution to federal individual income taxes is less than 0.0000015% of the total contributed, so it is unlikely that you are paying for my healthcare, or even paying much of my military retired pay, which cost a lot more.

Regards,
Prometheuss



BFD

Thurst: BFD

====================================

LOL. You ran out of witless repartee so quickly? How sad.

Regards,
Prometheuss

my military retired pay, which cost a lot more.

Regards,Prometheuss

Welfare Queen

my military retired pay, which cost a lot more.

Regards,
Prometheuss

FCorelli: Welfare Queen

LOL. Notice how some folks can not tell the difference between welfare and work? How sad for them. No wonder they are so easily confused about how the world works and get frustrated when it does not work as they wish it would.

Also, notice how some folks, lacking a cogent response, immediately resort to name calling? How sad for them. They are so easily frustrated when reality collides with their pretend world.

Regards,
Prometheuss

Also, notice how some folks, lacking a cogent response, immediately resort to name calling? How sad for them. They are so easily frustrated when reality collides with their pretend world.

Regards,
Prometheuss



You've been living a long time at tax payer expense. I think the name "hypocrite" fits you pretty well, oh great pretender.

Enjoy playing with yer "cogent response".

;-)

You've been living a long time at tax payer expense. I think the name "hypocrite" fits you pretty well, oh great pretender.

Enjoy playing with yer "cogent response".

;-)

LOL. I have been working hard for the US Army for a long time. I earned my retirement pay just as I earn my pay every day in my current position. So I am far from a hypocrite or a pretender. You, however, are obviously clueless and probably more than a bit jealous. How sad.

But the real shame is that you do not value the men and women in the US military who volunteer their service to the nation. I could not care less what you think of me, but your blatant lack of respect for the way they earn their pay is beneath contempt. Shame on you!

Regards,
Prometheuss

I have been in the military also and you have no idea what I value.

You've "earned" in the same sense as anyone "earned" what they get on welfare and collecting ADC. You met the legal criteria to collect money from the tapayers and continue to do so. You may have been more fortunate but it is really just a matter of degree. Your criticism of those whose health care is taxpayer supported is that of a hypocrite.

There is no reason for me to me to be jealous of you, and I wouldn't trade places anymore than you would. My government retirement is more than adequate and I did not have to turn into a pompous a$$ to "earn" it.

Another "illiterate" I guess. hey son, I get the same epsnion and evil socialist government medical bennies from my time in the USAF

The poking was a bit of jest and a bit of sarcasm. Shortly after I retired and was still, I guess you;d call it socially connected, I was in a new place meeting new people and I was a millionaire. Most of these people were Free Market republicans and business owners.

When they thought I was "An investor" (the way I billed myself in those days) they loved my ass!

Then I'd swing the conversation to my Gov pension and endless bag of medical benifits and it turned to "F'ing welfare! Thats what you people get! Anybody who gets a gov paycheck is on welfare!

Then I'd say, well my Gov days were spent in the Military... THEN it was Thank you for your service! You guys deserve everything we can give you! You're a HEE-RO! And this was before 9-11 too

The point is just what the F do those Right Wing kooks want? I'll tell ya what they want ... what they really really want. They want it both ways, sonny. They want it both ways. You people are as f'd up and itellectually dishonest as all the Left Wing Hillary Sucking half humans out there are. There's no morality, honor, and integrity more important than being self-serving.


my military retired pay, which cost a lot more.

Regards,
Prometheuss

FCorelli: Welfare Queen

LOL. Notice how some folks can not tell the difference between welfare and work? How sad for them. No wonder they are so easily confused about how the world works and get frustrated when it does not work as they wish it would.

Also, notice how some folks, lacking a cogent response, immediately resort to name calling? How sad for them. They are so easily frustrated when reality collides with their pretend world.

Regards,
Prometheuss

But Herceptin is an expensive drug, costing $36,000 to $47,000 a year for each patient, and the health service has finite resources. Around the country, some local health services said they would approve the use of Herceptin in early breast cancer cases; others said they would not......


She asked for Herceptin. But the Swindon health service has a policy of allowing its use for early-stage breast cancer only in "exceptional circumstances," and her doctor said that her case was no different from those of "the 20 or so other residents in the Swindon area in the same position." He urged that all the patients be given the drug. The health service rejected the recommendation.

Jan Stubbings, chief executive of Swindon Primary Care Trust, the local health service, said on Wednesday that "difficult choices" have to be made in a service that answers to all 200,000 residents. "The primary care trust has to care for the whole population," she said in a statement. "We have other people in our community who don't have a strong voice, and we have to consider them."

makes sense to me

But the real shame is that you do not value the men and women in the US military who volunteer their service to the nation. I could not care less what you think of me, but your blatant lack of respect for the way they earn their pay is beneath contempt. Shame on you!

Regards,
Prometheuss



The "real shame" is that those who serve the nation working and paying the taxes that cover your healthcare and that of the poor, and the aged, then have to be exploited as much as minerals dug from the ground. They pay for you and then have to go purchase (if they can afford it) a separate coverage for themselves and their families.

In every other civilized country in the world the citizen's health care is provided in a manner reflecting the wealth of that country. The good health of the citizens is a valued national resource that benefits everyone. You have a great "entitlement program", but your fellow citizens are every bit as deserving as you.

It is your "blatant disrespect" for those who support you that is "beneath contempt". But I doubt you are capable of feeling shame so forget it.

And your "regards" are and always have been as phoney as the rest of your posturing.

You people are as f'd up and itellectually dishonest as all the Left Wing Hillary Sucking half humans out there are. There's no morality, honor, and integrity more important than being self-serving.

This is the smartest thing I've ever seen you post around here!

Our politicians have devolved into beings that are self-serving rather than being our representatives as they used to be. At the moment, I can barely think of even one congressperson that represents me!

In every other civilized country in the world the citizen's health care is provided in a manner reflecting the wealth of that country.

Tell this to the government of your state or come up with a good reason it can't be done at the state level. Otherwise, it's all just socialist whining. If it can't happen voluntarily in a climate where there is competition for governance, then I see no reason why it should happen.

1HF

You've "earned" in the same sense as anyone "earned" what they get on welfare and collecting ADC.

I'll disagree. Veterans actually performed some service and risked - possibly suffered - some injury, even death, in the process of "earning" what they and their families get from the government *as* veterans.

Welfare recipients get paid for breathing unproductively. Actually performing a service, at least temporarily, DISqualifies them.

You might want to argue that some or all veterans get more than their service, risk, and sacrifice justifies (can I have the popcorn concession?), just as some people argue that various other people (teachers, corporate executives, whomever) are overpaid... but it is in fact payment for service performed, much like a corporate pension.

Exactly! So what if the military does deserve it? What about everybody else? Why do we have to consider medical insurance and the ability to have it some kind of "reward" for some kind of "service"? Why can't very citizen be able to obtain it? I mean what's the hold up? The essentials of life dangling on a string in front of you, out of reach until you've jump through some friggin' hoop. A hoop decided on and rigged by people who are not made to jump through any hoops.

The "real shame" is that those who serve the nation working and paying the taxes that cover your healthcare and that of the poor, and the aged, then have to be exploited as much as minerals dug from the ground. They pay for you and then have to go purchase (if they can afford it) a separate coverage for themselves and their families.

In every other civilized country in the world the citizen's health care is provided in a manner reflecting the wealth of that country. The good health of the citizens is a valued national resource that benefits everyone. You have a great "entitlement program", but your fellow citizens are every bit as deserving as you.

It is your "blatant disrespect" for those who support you that is "beneath contempt". But I doubt you are capable of feeling shame so forget it.

And your "regards" are and always have been as phoney as the rest of your posturing.

<<In every other civilized country in the world the citizen's health care is provided in a manner reflecting the wealth of that country. The good health of the citizens is a valued national resource that benefits everyone. You have a great "entitlement program", but your fellow citizens are every bit as deserving as you.
>>


In the United States, people have an incentive to get up and go to work and better themselves. By doing so they can purchase the valuable asset of having health insurance.

If health care is a right you get whether you work or not, why bother?

Personally, I continue to oppose government health care, and just mailed in $599 to cover the cost of my individual health insurance coverage for March. That's for myself alone.

I'd vastly prefer to continue doing that than have the government provide me with health care for "free."



Seattle Pioneer

SP,

People all over the world get up and go to work to better themselves. Why would citizens of this country stop if there was universal health care? Explain this unique American defect you imagine.

There are plenty of American working people (even government employees) whose employers contribute to their healthcare if the employee can afford to pay their portion of the premium, but is beyond their means and they and their families must go without.

There is a cost for all healthcare. It is never "free". But the most basic coverage is more affordable by those that pay without the commercial administrative overhead in our current system. For those with excess funds and a desire for greater coverage, spend away! Retain your own personal physician if you wish!

You and I are purchasing our own individual policies, and we are paying coverage for others in addition. I think you and I should be covered to the extent of basic coverage we are providing for others and our indidual policies should build on top of the universal coverage.

There are plenty of valuable assets to be purchased and provide incentives to be productive other than providing welfare for the American insurance and medical industry. Let those unneccessary elements find better livliehoods just as has taken place in the phone solictation industry.

I realize, and it is evident in your post and your many others that this is not a subject that produces your greatest wisdom. So forgive me if I don't get bogged down in one of your tar baby routines. 1HF is far more entertained by such poking at you on other topics.

In the United States, people have an incentive to get up and go to work and better themselves. By doing so they can purchase the valuable asset of having health insurance.

Yes it IS valuable. It's a necessity. Re Adam Smith vis a vis "necessaries"

If health care is a right you get whether you work or not, why bother?

Hey 'tood, where is this "moral hazzard" as when it comes to The Rich?
They sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns but they live real good on government programs. They own the "Rights" to things. The right to collect off your and my back. They have sht loads of money without working but you're not calling them lazy, or degenerate.

You just busted your own theory too btw. Even tho they can always afford medical insurance or even pay retail on their own, these rich eager g/d beavers STILL get out of bed in the morning and shoot for ... not the mere necessities of life, they already have those, but another 10 million for a new yacht. So, what keeps THEM "working"?

Look, do you Right Wing pretenders LIKE the American People at all? or do you find them simply contemptable from the word "Go"? You people keep changing your story and bedrock core moral values at the drop of a hat when it comes to Government and The People

Personally, I continue to oppose government health care,
So do I. I have written of it many times.

and just mailed in $599 to cover the cost of my individual health insurance coverage for March. That's for myself alone.

I'd vastly prefer to continue doing that than have the government provide me with health care for "free."Seattle Pioneer

Yeah yeah yeah, we hear this from every "government is evil" type until it's their oxe that gets pronged then all you hear is "There oughtta be a law!"

Exactly! So what if the military does deserve it? What about everybody else? Why do we have to consider medical insurance and the ability to have it some kind of "reward" for some kind of "service"? Why can't very citizen be able to obtain it?

People who care about "everybody else" typically want me to pay for everybody else. And I already do, subsidizing the emergency room visits of the uninsured with my higher co-pays and future higher premiums when DW retires, and taxes. That's about all I'm willing to do.

Take a look at the Constitution and tell me where it guarantees a right to health care for everybody else. You can't because it's not there. It doesn't even authorize the actions government has taken over the last 60 years to get us into the health care mess we're in now.

Take a look at the 10th Amendment, where it says that powers not granted to the federal government are reserved for the people or the states. Wouldn't it be nice if really worked this way? Then you could live in a state where you were taxed to the eyebrows to pay for everybody else's health care, while I lived in a state where people were expected to be responsible for themselves.

--fleg

I have been in the military also and you have no idea what I value.

Nonsense. We know what you value when you show your disdain for military service and equate it to welfare. And your values are contemptible when you do so even if you did serve. By the way, why don't you tell us all about your service?

You've "earned" in the same sense as anyone "earned" what they get on welfare and collecting ADC.

You do not even know the meaning of the word earn. How pathetic. Meeting a set of criteria for welfare earns someone nothing. It simply qualifies that person for welfare. Good work and playing by the rules is how you earn your pay and keep a job.

You met the legal criteria to collect money from the tapayers and continue to do so. You may have been more fortunate but it is really just a matter of degree.

I did much more than meet some set of legal criteria just as anyone serving does more than meet those criteria. Meeting the legal criteria are necessary, but far from sufficient. Get a clue!

Serving has little to do with fortune, which you seem to attribute to anything than someone else earns. Furthermore, the difference is one of kind and not degree. Again, you seem ignorant of the most basic concepts. Where do you come up with this nonsense?

Your criticism of those whose health care is taxpayer supported is that of a hypocrite.

I never criticized anyone whose health care is taxpayer supported. That is a lie and if you had any integrity you would correct that lie or show all of us where I did so.

I criticized you (actually poked fun at, but you can call it criticism if you like since your vocabulary seems limited and your understanding of the words you use is highly suspect) for being so willing to spend an ever increasing amount of taxpayer dollars on socialized health care while claiming some great virtue for yourself by doing so.

You clearly do not know the meaning of the word hypocrite. You ought to look it up before you attempt to use it again. Doing so in these circumstances makes you seem petty and ignorant. Words lose their power when you throw them around without even a hint of truth behind them.

No reasonable person would say that serving in the military requires one to subscribe to socialized health care as public policy. Health care goes with military service just as health care goes with employment in a wide variety of circumstances. There is nothing hypocrical about receiveing the benefits of miliary service without calling for everyone in the nation to get exactly the same thing without serving. Again, get a clue.

Regards,
Prometheuss

The "real shame" is that those who serve the nation working and paying the taxes that cover your healthcare and that of the poor, and the aged, then have to be exploited as much as minerals dug from the ground. They pay for you and then have to go purchase (if they can afford it) a separate coverage for themselves and their families.

In every other civilized country in the world the citizen's health care is provided in a manner reflecting the wealth of that country. The good health of the citizens is a valued national resource that benefits everyone. You have a great "entitlement program", but your fellow citizens are every bit as deserving as you.

It is your "blatant disrespect" for those who support you that is "beneath contempt". But I doubt you are capable of feeling shame so forget it.

And your "regards" are and always have been as phoney as the rest of your posturing.

LOL. You seem to have jumped off the deep end. Your posts are filled with hate and lies. That does little to advance your point of view.

Regards,
Prometheuss

LOL. You seem to have jumped off the deep end. Your posts are filled with hate and lies. That does little to advance your point of view.
____________________


It is kinda funny, some folks will just truly 'wierd out' and then convince themselves they won the argument because no one responds. This thread had some of the more bizarre ranting I have read, perhaps the thread was infected by social 'medicine'?

Why do we have to consider medical insurance and the ability to have it some kind of "reward" for some kind of "service"? Why can't very citizen be able to obtain it? I mean what's the hold up? The essentials of life dangling on a string in front of you, out of reach until you've jump through some friggin' hoop. A hoop decided on and rigged by people who are not made to jump through any hoops.

We don't have a consensus that a right to healthcare exists, just as we don't have a consensus that a right to food, clothing, shelter, wide screen TV's or the entertainment drug of your choice exists. These are examples of specific welfare, not general welfare. Military people are "rewarded" with healthcare as a contractual obligation. They serve and sacrifice for the general welfare.

We furthermore don't have a consensus that the federal government would be the right supplier or that a plan that won't sink our nation has yet been presented. A littany of complaints is not a plan. A littany of emotional appeals is not a plan. What we already have is a plan in place. It's not a perfect plan, but it has consensus, because the danger of specific welfare plans is well known. The countries that recognize a national right to healthcare are wallowing in econmic stagnation, not because they recognize a right to healthcare, but because the've opened a floodgate to specific welfare.

1HF

You and I are purchasing our own individual policies, and we are paying coverage for others in addition. I think you and I should be covered to the extent of basic coverage we are providing for others and our indidual policies should build on top of the universal coverage.

What's stopping you from being the CEO of an insurance company which provides this? Afraid of a little risk?

tngirl

. We know what you value when you show your disdain for military service and equate it to welfare.Pr

This is an overarching statement designed to inflame. YOU actually cannot know what he distains. You simply make a self serving accusation.

As far as who thinks the military are welfare queens.. MY eprsonal experience is that The Capitalist Business thinks they are. Now I know this rocks your moral boat so you dispense with it.

Words lose their power when you throw them around without even a hint of truth behind them.

Just like the way YOU and te iother right winger keep beating the drum of "capitalism" while knowing or pretending to know almost nothing about it.

Health care goes with military service just as health care goes with employment in a wide variety of circumstances

How about AFTER retirement? Ya know, just start, moaning about how we can't afford it anymore.

<<SP,

People all over the world get up and go to work to better themselves. Why would citizens of this country stop if there was universal health care? Explain this unique American defect you imagine.

>>


Hang out at the Early Retirement Board on the fool. intercst, the resident sage who retired at age 36 likes to say, "Retire Early, you have nothing to lose but your health insurance."

Lots of people on that board keep working because they can't afford to quit and pay for health insurance.



Seattle Pioneer

We don't have a consensus that a right to healthcare exists

I'm probably a bit eccentric on this issue, but I feel that if I get some condition I can't afford to have I'm just going to have to die of it. That's not a bad thing - we've all got to go some time.

If we get national health insurance I'll be able to afford to have a heart attack or whatever; if not I'll have to hope some teaching hospital will write most of it off. Again, not complaining, just saying it's either a federal thing or nothing in my present situation.

The good news is it gives me extra motivation to eat well, exercise and drive carefully.

A friend of ours died last year because he didn't have insurance to pay for a heart transplant. Again, not a bad thing. People used to get old and die; now they get old and get emdless treatments. My Uncle who is well past 80 only lives because of a pacemaker and says he would gladly refuse it except his wife is still alive and would miss him.


Reader99
Entitled to equal opportunity to purchase insurance
Entitled to not be able to afford it

I'm probably a bit eccentric on this issue, but I feel that if I get some condition I can't afford to have I'm just going to have to die of it. That's not a bad thing - we've all got to go some time.

There's no shortage of options. Our society produces those options and does it sensibly for the most part (except for the federalization). The biggest problem I see is that we refuse to be honest about it. Charity is charity. Recipients of charity, have, at the very least, an obligation to admit they are receiving charity and be grateful for it. Calling these entitlement programs like SS, Medicare and Medicaid anything other than coerced charity is simply dishonest and when we fail to recognize dishonesty, we not only invite disaster upon us, but we pay its airfare.

If you have a health problem, relying on society doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong. It recognizes that society has a stake in creating a climate that is beneficial to its members. That doesn't mean that we need to push the issue into government and raise it to a higher level of government and a lower level of competition for governance than the law of unintended consquences can ignore.

1HF

There's no shortage of options.

I'd be glad to know some of them. I'm not eligible for Medicaid, too young for Medicare, SS Disability requires complete disability for a year or more. I'm sure there are other things, but I don't know what they would be.

I'd be glad to know some of them. I'm not eligible for Medicaid, too young for Medicare, SS Disability requires complete disability for a year or more. I'm sure there are other things, but I don't know what they would be.

My state has a plan to for low income people to apply for subsidized insurance as well as plans for medical care loans (similar to student loans). I suspect most states do if you peek under the covers, because I think it is part of HIPAA. If that doesn't help, there's programs like the 340B program for drugs. The county I live in is so poor on average that people who live here don't even have to apply. I'm pretty sure there's something similar for medical devices. Then there are local charities.

1HF

I've been perusing the boards recently with a specific interest in health insurance strategies for those on COBRA, since I may consider a move to a new company that will not have a group health plan for a time. I used to work in the insurance field as an underwriter and agent for life and health and I'm looking over the current regulations regarding pre-existing conditions. Sure hasn't gotten better. Sad to say but my job hunt is now predicated on regulations involving health insurance from state to state. Health insurance regulations are causing a little family economic stagnation.

When I was an agent (over 10 years ago) I remember we had a couple of issues come up with preexisting conditions. One was a woman who was declined for health insurance for lupus. She had bursitis from tennis in her arm. Ortho ran a blood test that came back positive for an antibody. This idiot writes on her records, “Test positive for Lupus-refer to arthritis specialist.” The specialist then runs more tests and finds it was a false positive, says stop playing so much tennis. The woman was now considered uninsurable by all of the companies we brokered and the information was registered with the MIB. Another instance we had was a woman who had two mammograms done. MD thought he saw something, wanted another test done, ended up being nothing. We did find a company to insure her but it was at a rated premium and most of the other carriers declined.

Finally, I read about a legal case when I was studying for a CLU exam-couple gets a pre-natal test for Downs and tests come back positive. The insurance company, saying that the condition is preexisting for the fetus, gives the woman the choice of having an abortion (paid for) for having the baby with no insurance. The couple threatened to go public and it was settled out of court.

I would opine that advancing genetic technologies will make our traditional free-market health plans obsolete. In insurance, a certain risk is uninsurable. When someone's complete genetic history and risk is known, how can insurance be sold?

Having upper middle class people go bankrupt when they loose health insurance from a layoff (and can't get other coverage) is not the way to manage our public policy. I agree that some contractural obligations exist-but much of the economic stagnation in the European countries is caused by depopulation, not healthcare. Declining family size, coupled with fixed government pensions and healthcare for life with an aging population is certain disaster, here and abroad.

The insurance company, saying that the condition is preexisting for the fetus, gives the woman the choice of having an abortion (paid for) for having the baby with no insurance. The couple threatened to go public and it was settled out of court.

I wonder how the moral life loving, free market, big business worshiping Republickins would rationalize and justify that one? I know. Force them to have the baby, go bankrupt, admonish them to work harder and strive & achieve for more money to pay medical costs, and when that fails just say "Life ain't fair"

Having upper middle class people go bankrupt when they loose health insurance from a layoff (and can't get other coverage) is not the way to manage our public policy

Yes, as always when the problem creeps uncomfortably UP the income scale it gets more attention. THOSE people work hard and have what it takes so if they're feeling the heat of economic discomfort it must be somebody else's fault. There oughta be a law! Now, if people they define or perceive as unworthy and undeserving have to suffer, well, life ain't fair. Get a job ya bum.

Updating - last week after exhausting my little store of money on a 'real' doctor and incredibly expensive prescription, when that didn't fix it I asked around some and found a free clinic which serves people who make less than $20k/year but are not eligible for Medicaid. They also referred me to a local hospital's program for reduced price prescriptions and lab tests. So, good. They're not on the internet and not a gov't outfit, word of mouth to a "faith-based" charity now has me covered for at least the basic doctor visits.