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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22709  
Subject: Aliyah continues Date: 8/21/2006 9:38 PM
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Nefesh b'Nefesh has another record year despite the war. Here are photos:

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=110274

-silencer
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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10001 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/21/2006 9:55 PM
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Nefesh b'Nefesh has another record year despite the war. Here are photos:

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=110274

-silencer



I haven't been keeping up on the issue so perhaps you could fill me in. Do those who convert to judaism, regardless of whether the conversion is reformed, conservative or other, get the same treatment if they engage in "Aliyah".
In other words, does the natiion of Israel, as it has done in the past continue to discriminate against those who convert to Judaism depending on which branch of Judaism they convert to?


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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10002 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/22/2006 7:50 AM
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I haven't been keeping up on the issue so perhaps you could fill me in. Do those who convert to judaism, regardless of whether the conversion is reformed, conservative or other, get the same treatment if they engage in "Aliyah".

As far as I know, yes. One other thing, the correct term is "reform" not "reformed" but this is a common mistake.

-silencer

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10007 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 12:15 PM
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Sorry about the "Reformed" - that appeara at a second read to suggest ignorance. At least ignorance is something one can be cured of. Thanks for pointing out that egregious error. Slicha.


As to my question concerning Aliyah, it is my understanding that nonpracticing, nonreligious jews with proven lineage are given preference botb officially and unoficially over precticing reform and conservative converts to judaism.
I could be wrong on this but here are a couple of websites that seem to support this possibility.


www.answers.com/topic/who-is-a-jew

www.irac.org/sub_topics_e.asp?topic

urj.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=7350

Clarification would be appreciated.




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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10008 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 12:20 PM
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Clarification would be appreciated.


Nice post and a nice change in style.

In respect to your question, I honestly don't know. I hope others here have more insight than I.

Mark


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10009 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 12:34 PM
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Nice post and a nice change in style

Thank you

Here's some of the other information I've reviewed considering the issue.



www.irac.org/sub_topics_e.asp?topic=30

www.convert.org/book3.htm


home.law.uiuc.edu/lrev/publications/2000s/2002/2002_5/Altschul.pdf


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10010 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 12:38 PM
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As to my question concerning Aliyah, it is my understanding that nonpracticing, nonreligious jews with proven lineage are given preference botb officially and unoficially over precticing reform and conservative converts to judaism.

I think it's true. If you were born Jewish, i.e. your mother is Jewish, you are considered Jewish for purposes of Aliyah no matter what your practices. OTOH, when you claim to be Jewish by conversion, Israel will consider your conversion valid only if it is recognized by the Israeli rabinate, which recognizes only Orthodox conversions.

There is another statement in the link you provided at www.answers.com that isn't quite clear to me. It says that for purposes of Aliyah, i.e. the Law of Return, the determination of who is Jewish by birth is more liberal than the purely halachic determination. That is, anyone with one Jewish parent or grandparent is accepted. It may be true, because many people from the former Soviet republics have immigrated in recent years even though they are not Jewish by the halachic definition. I don't know what the exact rules are.

Elan

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10011 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 12:46 PM
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I think it's true. If you were born Jewish, i.e. your mother is Jewish, you are considered Jewish for purposes of Aliyah no matter what your practices. OTOH, when you claim to be Jewish by conversion, Israel will consider your conversion valid only if it is recognized by the Israeli rabinate, which recognizes only Orthodox conversions.

There is another statement in the link you provided at www.answers.com that isn't quite clear to me. It says that for purposes of Aliyah, i.e. the Law of Return, the determination of who is Jewish by birth is more liberal than the purely halachic determination. That is, anyone with one Jewish parent or grandparent is accepted. It may be true, because many people from the former Soviet republics have immigrated in recent years even though they are not Jewish by the halachic definition. I don't know what the exact rules are.

Elan


Like most things, when you try to pin down the specifics, it sometimes gets a little fuzzy. Seems like Heisenberg was right in more arenas than particle physics.

I would appreciate all input. Believe it or not, it is a family issue.


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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10012 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 12:48 PM
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I would appreciate all input. Believe it or not, it is a family issue.


Consider making a call/visit to your local Israeli consulate then. Get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Hope this helps.

Mark


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10013 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 1:03 PM
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Consider making a call/visit to your local Israeli consulate then. Get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Heh, don't count on it. You're likely to talk to a clerk who is somewhat short on clues.

Even the interior ministry authorities in Israel are sometimes inconsistent. They make rules as they go along. My nephew is getting married soon in Israel. He is Jewish, born in Israel and registered as a Jew at birth. Both parents are Jewish, immigrated from the Soviet Union 34 years ago. When he applied for a marriage license they required him to go before a "beit din" to prove that he's Jewish. There was an argument between two rabbis, from different towns in Israel, about what proof is required. It was all humiliating, infuriating, and ultimately was resolved as an "open and shut case". But it serves to show how arbitrary and inconsistent the (abusive) authorities are sometimes.

Elan


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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10014 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 1:08 PM
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Ouch!
Israel is in dire need for secular marriage laws.

Mark

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10015 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 1:10 PM
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Consider making a call/visit to your local Israeli consulate then. Get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Heh, don't count on it. You're likely to talk to a clerk who is somewhat short on clues.


One last comment, if the relatives are indeed considering making Aliyah, should they contact the consulate to get the eligibility in writing?
From what I understand, they'll even fly the family in for free and help out with the process.

Mark

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10016 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 1:21 PM
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Ouch!
Israel is in dire need for secular marriage laws.


I agree in principle, but things are a bit complicated. About 20% of Israeli Jews (I think) are Orthodox who insist on only one valid form of marriage for Jews. Of the remaining more secular population, perhaps half or more are okay with the status quo. The religious status quo in Israel is generally a political hot potato that nobody wants to touch. It was defined at indpendence as a way for religious and non-religious Jews to live together. There are attempts by both sides to nibble at the edges of the status quo from time to time, with very strong reactions from the other side. So the general attitude in Israel, supported probably by a vast majority of the population, is to let sleeping dogs lie.

The status quo involves many issues, such as which businesses may operate on the Sabath, public transportation on Sabath, the selling of non-Kosher food and serving at restaurants, who determines what is Kosher, marriage, divorce, burial, school curricula and funding for various sectors of the population, etc.

Elan

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10017 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 1:36 PM
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Consider making a call/visit to your local Israeli consulate then. Get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Hope this helps.

Mark



Thanks for the suggestion
I've tried that route but have found that course, in an attempt to get a direct answer, somewhat disappointing.

Any other suggestions that might be helpful?



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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10018 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 1:43 PM
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Even the interior ministry authorities in Israel are sometimes inconsistent. They make rules as they go along. My nephew is getting married soon in Israel. He is Jewish, born in Israel and registered as a Jew at birth. Both parents are Jewish, immigrated from the Soviet Union 34 years ago. When he applied for a marriage license they required him to go before a "beit din" to prove that he's Jewish. There was an argument between two rabbis, from different towns in Israel, about what proof is required. It was all humiliating, infuriating, and ultimately was resolved as an "open and shut case". But it serves to show how arbitrary and inconsistent the (abusive) authorities are sometimes.

Elan



And here I thought it was my blond hair and abrasive personality that precluded me from getting a straight answer :-).
Rats, I was hoping I was a victim of hair color, ethnic origin, and personality discrimination :-0.
FWIW, I look more "Midwest WASP" than even Midwest WASPS. That jewish last name on the other hand, still makes the Midwest WASPS suspect.


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10019 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 1:50 PM
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The status quo involves many issues, such as which businesses may operate on the Sabath, public transportation on Sabath, the selling of non-Kosher food and serving at restaurants, who determines what is Kosher, marriage, divorce, burial, school curricula and funding for various sectors of the population, etc.

Elan



Not to mention those who cannot get a valid marriage license in Israel but can go to Cyprus for the weekend, get married and then get their marraige recognized in Israel.


While not valid, the only comparison that some have made would be if fundamentalist Christians controlled immigration and marriage in the United states. While there are obvious differences, there are also similarities.

Listening to the news today, gives the issue another twist. There is a significant level of suspicion that part of the reason for Hez's recent "success" should you choose to call it that, comes from a large contribution of "intelligence" provided by Arab citizens of Israel.





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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10020 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 2:16 PM
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Listening to the news today, gives the issue another twist. There is a significant level of suspicion that part of the reason for Hez's recent "success" should you choose to call it that, comes from a large contribution of "intelligence" provided by Arab citizens of Israel.

I'm not sure where you got that impression, or how it relates to what we've been discussing. One resident of the village of Rajar, which is split down the middle between Israel and Lebanon, was arrested today on suspicion of espionage for Hizballah (and the Al Jazeera network). There may have been a few more Arab residents who provided information to Hizballah. But I think that has very little to do with the degree of success or failure in the war. Israel made its own bed in that regard. Hizballah needed no more than a TV tuned to Israeli news channels, and someone who understands Hebrew, to know where, when, and with what force, Israel was attacking in Lebanon. The same was true of reports about whether their missiles hit their targets in Israel. The only pathetic excuse provided by the three Israeli channels was "if we didn't report it the competition would". I think all three Israeli channels should be taken to court for aiding the enemy at time of war. Watching Israeli TV live myself, it made me sick to my stomach.

Elan

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Author: midastouch017 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10021 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 2:20 PM
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I would recommend that you go and ask the details of immigration to Israel with an immigration emissary at the Aliya Center closest to your home. You can look up the address at: www.jafi.org.il.

Dubi

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10022 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 2:37 PM
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I'm not sure where you got that impression,

Was either listening to BBC or NPR. I didn't catch which, and admittedly, I don't have the text of what I heard but it was a pretty strong claim made. I can try to get the entire text if its important.

...or how it relates to what we've been discussing.

Well, there has always been that argument that unless you are "of the tribe" you can't truly understand the struggle and under duress, you aren't as comitted to the nation of Israel as those who have a genetic history . While history notes specific well documented exceptions to that argument, my impression has been- perhaps wrongly that most Israelis consider a nonreligious jew more commited to Israel than anything other than an orthodox convert.

In other words, if you can't make the "big" conversion, you're milquetoast when the real bread drops into the toaster.

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10023 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 2:41 PM
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I would recommend that you go and ask the details of immigration to Israel with an immigration emissary at the Aliya Center closest to your home. You can look up the address at: www.jafi.org.il.

Dubi



Thanks, as previously stated, I have tried to do what you suggest. Any specific information on the queston asked that you can supply would be appreciated.


Ulpan was hard enough.


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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10024 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 3:34 PM
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Conversion is an extremely complicated issue .

It is vital to seek the oppinion of a qualified Rabbi.

I done correctly no one has any problem at all .

Te convert will recieve documentation valid everywhere in the Jewish world .


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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10025 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 3:43 PM
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The reason you cant get an answer of help from the folks you asked isnt because they dont want to help . Its because its not their job to determine your religious status and they know they are not qualified to do so . And since they hold the positions they do it would be innappropriate of them to send you to a particular rabbi.

http://www.bethdin.org/

The folks at the link provided will help you find the answers you seek. Remember it is traditional to dissuade a potential convert . Several phone call may be neccessary . Nothing personal . They can help you anywhere in the world.

Good luck .

Menachem

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10026 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 3:46 PM
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Conversion is an extremely complicated issue .

It is vital to seek the oppinion of a qualified Rabbi.

I done correctly no one has any problem at all .

Te convert will recieve documentation valid everywhere in the Jewish world .

=================

But menachem, there is an imbalance here. If an orthodox Rabbi does the conversion, yes, that conversion will be recognized around the world.

But if a Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist Rabbi does the conversion, it will not be recognized by orthodox Rabbis, and I don't believe it will be recognized by Israel.

This argument of course leads back to the illegitimacy of non-orthodox varieties of Judaism in the eyes of the orthodox, which you and I probably won't solve today.

I agree that one should seek the advice of a qualified Rabbi, but as far as the State of Israel recognizing a conversion, only orthodox are recognized as qualified. I have a hard time with that.

Shalom,

Dovid

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10027 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:04 PM
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It is vital to seek the oppinion of a qualified Rabbi.

I agree. The problem lies in the definition of "qualified Rabbi". Qualified in another country or in Isreal?

I done correctly no one has any problem at all

See above. I'm pretty sure that you meant "If done" and not "I done". Hope I'm not putting words in your processor.

Te convert will recieve documentation valid everywhere in the Jewish world .

I honestly do not understand the above statement. My apologies for being obtuse, dense, ill informed or any other lack on my part to understand what you are trying to say.

I'm guessing again, without proof to the contrary, that you meant "To convert" and not "Te convert". If wrong, again, I apologize for doing the electronic equivalent of putting words in your mouth.

I'm sure you can explain in a manner that I can understand.

thanks for responding.


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10028 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:18 PM
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The folks at the link provided will help you find the answers you seek. Remember it is traditional to dissuade a potential convert . Several phone call may be neccessary . Nothing personal . They can help you anywhere in the world.

I guess that I'm not asking the right questions. I appreciate your input and your sincere attempts to address my questions.

The original question was, in essence; Do those who convert to judaism in another country either by reform(thanks again for the correction) or Conservative methodology, receive the same treatment as Orthodox conversions when "Aliyah" is considered?



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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10029 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:27 PM
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The original question was, in essence; Do those who convert to judaism in another country either by reform(thanks again for the correction) or Conservative methodology, receive the same treatment as Orthodox conversions when "Aliyah" is considered?

Simple answer - No! A Reform or Conservative convert should not expect to qualify for Aliyah based on the Law of Return.

However, if the convert is married to a Jew, for example, then the convert will be accepted on that basis.

Elan

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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10030 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:33 PM
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Yes , of course " If " .

" Qualified " - is a Rabbi whose judgement in matters pertaining to conversion is respected by all and questioned by none .
Their rabbinical ruling would be respected in any community , by any rabbi in the world . It is definitive in regards to Aliyah .

Yes , of course , " To " .

ps - Sometimes I hit the wrong key when I type . Feel free to assume any obvious intention . No harm asking though.

Once again . Good luck.

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10031 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:33 PM
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This argument of course leads back to the illegitimacy of non-orthodox varieties of Judaism in the eyes of the orthodox, which you and I probably won't solve today.

I agree that one should seek the advice of a qualified Rabbi, but as far as the State of Israel recognizing a conversion, only orthodox are recognized as qualified. I have a hard time with that.


Thanks Dov for recognizing and addressing the ssnsitivity of the issue I've brought to the fore.

Yes, it is profoundly complicated; but only by confronting that which confounds us, can we move forward with the things that we would rather not confound us.

The original question is, in essence: How does Israel define who is and who is not a jew; do those definitions make sense; and based on those definitions, how does Israel treat those who claim that they are jews?

aliyah was the original topic.


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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10032 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:38 PM
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But if a Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist Rabbi does the conversion, it will not be recognized by orthodox Rabbis, and I don't believe it will be recognized by Israel.

I think the reason for this is because many Reform, Conservative, and other Rabbis have performed many conversions for convenience rather than because of a true desire on someones part to become Jewish. In many cases, after a couple decides to marry, the non-Jewish one undergoes one of these kinds of "conversions" just out of convenience rather than out of conviction, often just to satisfy the various family members. And because it is recognized that these conversions are more due to convenience than conviction, the requirements have been severely diluted (which makes it even worse, as the actual process of conversion is also meant to culturally bring that person closer to the community, but this dilution almost eliminates that part of it). This is one of the main reasons why such conversions are looked at with so much distrust by the Rabbinate in Israel.


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10033 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:39 PM
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Simple answer - No! A Reform or Conservative convert should not expect to qualify for Aliyah based on the Law of Return.

However, if the convert is married to a Jew, for example, then the convert will be accepted on that basis.

Elan


Thanks Elan. The next question is "Are you comfortable with that designation? If so, why?

Why should a reform or Conservative convert to judaism not expect to qualify for Aliyah Law of return notwithstanding.?

Should anyone emigrating to the US be required to convert to fundamentalist Christianity?

Why should a nonreligious jew be given preference over a religious convert?


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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10034 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:45 PM
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I will try and explain and hope your heart is open as well as your mind .

Jews do not seek converts . It is against Jewish Law to do so.We believe that all human beings have the G-d given right to worship as they please . We do not believe our religion is better for others to have then their own. We believe all good human beings have a share in the world to come , not only Jews .

Why should someone convert ?

Only because the soul thirsts for it.

Those who thirst to live as Jews will find the cup .

You are lucky . I just handed you the cup.

Good luck.




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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10035 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:50 PM
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Thanks Elan. The next question is "Are you comfortable with that designation? If so, why?

Why should a reform or Conservative convert to judaism not expect to qualify for Aliyah Law of return notwithstanding.?

Should anyone emigrating to the US be required to convert to fundamentalist Christianity?

Why should a nonreligious jew be given preference over a religious convert?


The central issue is whether by a reform or conservative conversion a person becomes jewish. Ie is the conversion valid. So to the last point, under this view the one person is jewish, though not religious, and the other person may be "religious" but they are not jewish.

It's not something I'd investigated but I thought in the same way marriages in cyprus were valid in israel, maybe non-orthodox conversions done outside israel were somehow valid for purposes of law of return. though obviously you would have problems once you lived in israel in terms of getting married etc.

-silencer

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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10036 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:51 PM
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I responded in a sincere manner when you said -

" ...would appreciate all input. Believe it or not, it is a family issue."


My mistake .





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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10037 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:51 PM
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The original question is, in essence: How does Israel define who is and who is not a jew; do those definitions make sense; and based on those definitions, how does Israel treat those who claim that they are jews?

Your question "how does Israel treat..." presumes a uniformity that doesn't quite exist.

I believe Israel treats candidates for Aliyah quite leniently. If they claim to be Jewish they may be accepted without too much further probing. It may help if they have a Jewish sounding name. (But I'm not sure. There may be more probing than I'm aware of). What happens after Aliyah, perhaps when the Oleh or his children want to get married, may be quite different. At that time the matter is no longer in the hands of the ministry of immigration absorption. It is in the hands of the Israeli rabinate, which is sure to demand proof either that they were born Jewish or were properly converted by a rabbi that the Israeli rabinate recognizes.

Elan

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10038 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:51 PM
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Welcome to the board MenachembenYakov. Your name is particularly appropriate for this time of the year.

-silencer

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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10039 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:53 PM
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Here we go .

You dont know what you are talking about .

And I wont let you waste another second of my time .

Congrats ! You will be the first " ignore " on my list .

BY BY !


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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10040 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:54 PM
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Elan , He is wasting your time . A shill to bash Israel .

Why bother with him ?

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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10041 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 4:55 PM
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Thank you silencer . I appreciate the welcome.

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10042 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:01 PM
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I think the reason for this is because many Reform, Conservative, and other Rabbis have performed many conversions for convenience rather than because of a true desire on someones part to become Jewish. In many cases, after a couple decides to marry, the non-Jewish one undergoes one of these kinds of "conversions" just out of convenience rather than out of conviction, often just to satisfy the various family members. And because it is recognized that these conversions are more due to convenience than conviction, the requirements have been severely diluted (which makes it even worse, as the actual process of conversion is also meant to culturally bring that person closer to the community, but this dilution almost eliminates that part of it). This is one of the main reasons why such conversions are looked at with so much distrust by the Rabbinate in Israel.

Can I ask how I should present this opinion to my sister who married, converted to judaism(reform), has two children- Ben, Aleah, is profoundly active in the jewish community, and contributes regularly to her adopted community, that her conversion is one of convenience lacking conviction?

When compared, her genetic family is far larger than her husband's in terms of living relatives. We all accept, validate and recognize her conversion as inconvenient as it was for her to make that decision.

I so love my sister, the jew. My brother in law- the jew is one of my best friends. My nephew, and my niece- both jews near as I can tell by their upbringing are beloved by me.

There seems to be a whole lot more conviction than convenience.

I'm sorry that you have the opinion you have concerning specific types of conversions.

I'm hopeful that if you ever meet my sister, recognize her sincerity and her commitment, you won't dismiss her conversion as a conversion of convenience. She has earned through the years, and deserves far better than your dismissive attitude towards non orthodox conversions.
She, near as I can tell, has made a committment to judaism that many who are born jews, have never made.

I wish that there were fewer jews so dismissive of a non-orthodox conversion and their commitment to their faith.

I am hopeful that your opinion of the general "feeling" concerning conversion isn't your opinion.


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10043 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:05 PM
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You are lucky . I just handed you the cup.

I have drunk deeply from that cup and the cup of many others who offer to quench my thirst in a universally parched desert.


Toda Rava.


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10044 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:09 PM
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I believe Israel treats candidates for Aliyah quite leniently. If they claim to be Jewish they may be accepted without too much further probing. It may help if they have a Jewish sounding name. (But I'm not sure. There may be more probing than I'm aware of). What happens after Aliyah, perhaps when the Oleh or his children want to get married, may be quite different. At that time the matter is no longer in the hands of the ministry of immigration absorption. It is in the hands of the Israeli rabinate, which is sure to demand proof either that they were born Jewish or were properly converted by a rabbi that the Israeli rabinate recognizes.


Thanks for the input. I was sort of hoping for facts, laws, etc.


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10045 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:15 PM
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Here we go .

You dont know what you are talking about .

And I wont let you waste another second of my time .

Congrats ! You will be the first " ignore " on my list .

BY BY !


No I don't; which is why I've asked for input. I don't know what I've done to run afoul of you but thanks just the same.

I thought it would be a "bye bye" as opposed to "by by" but just the same, ignored or not I would still consider and evaluate your input.


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10046 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:16 PM
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Thanks Elan. The next question is "Are you comfortable with that designation? If so, why?

No, I'm not comfortable. But as I tried to explain, it's a rather complicated issue with no simple solution.
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=24501561

Why should a reform or Conservative convert to judaism not expect to qualify for Aliyah Law of return notwithstanding.?

There's no such thing as "Aliyah, Law of Return not withstanding". Aliyah is defined by the Law of Return. Implicit in that is a definition of who is a Jew, which is where it gets sticky.

Should anyone emigrating to the US be required to convert to fundamentalist Christianity?

No. The US has a separation of church and state enshrined in its constitution. Almost no other country in the world treats religion in the same way. Almost all European and South American countries have an official state religion and nobody gets bent out of shape about it.

There's something important that many non-Jews and even some Jews fail to understand. Israel's concept of Jews is not primarily a religious issue, it is one of national identity. Jews have special status in Israel because Israel was founded as a state of the Jewish People, not a state of the Jewish religion. Its declaration of independence begins with "Ha'am hayehudi", not "Ha'dat hayehudit", i.e. the Jewish people (nation), not the Jewish religion.

If you want to find a parallel to the Law of Return, you can look at the law passed by Germany after WWII giving preference for anyone of "German heritage" to immigrate to Germany and receive citizenship (the law still exists). In fact, other countries have similar laws giving second generation children of emigrants the right to citizenship in the country of their parents' origin.

Why should a nonreligious jew be given preference over a religious convert?

That's not a valid distinction. Nobody cares, for purposes of immigration, whether you practice your religion or not, or even whether you believe in god or not. The only question is - are you Jewish, i.e. are you a member of the Jewish People.

Elan

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10047 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:17 PM
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Elan , He is wasting your time . A shill to bash Israel .

Why bother with him ?


That's just uncalled for.



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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10048 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:25 PM
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That's not a valid distinction. Nobody cares, for purposes of immigration, whether you practice your religion or not, or even whether you believe in god or not. The only question is - are you Jewish, i.e. are you a member of the Jewish People.


I'm not suggesting that you are making a circular argument, I only have to ask the question- which is "who is a jew" for the purposes of immigration to Israel-as it applies to Aliyah.

That "Nobody Cares" for purposes of immigration may or may not be true. That's the original question that I asked.

For the purposes of immigration to Israel- Aliyah, who does the nation of Israel consider a jew?

If I'm dense on the issue, I'm new to the subject.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10049 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:27 PM
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When any subject is personal it gets, well...personal.

First of all. The question of aliyah is moot here b/c your sister is married to a jew.

As an analogy, let's say someone really loves America. So much that they even move here. But they never go through the proper channels to become a citizen. Then they are angry b/c they don't have the right to vote.

I'm not saying it isn't hurtful or unemotional, but if acceptance of the Torah and the commandments is held up as the standard for what constitutes conversion and becoming "jewish", then conversions which do not meet that standard will not be seen as valid.

-silencer

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10050 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:27 PM
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Can I ask how I should present this opinion to my sister who married, converted to judaism(reform), has two children- Ben, Aleah, is profoundly active in the jewish community, and contributes regularly to her adopted community, that her conversion is one of convenience lacking conviction?

I think you're taking unnecessary offense. Nobody accused your sister or anyone like her of being insincere. All that was said was that, in some cases, the ease with which Reform and Conservative rabbis perform conversions may allow some people to convert for insincere motives. Of course, sincerity is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's more of a turf war in the American Jewish community, and the Israeli rabbinate, than anything else.

Now that you've "shown your hand" a bit more, maybe the answer can be clearer. I gather that your sister is married to a man who is Jewish by birth. In that case the whole family should have no problem with Aliyah, as far as I know. The issue may get complicated if your niece and nephew ever want to get married as Jews in Israel. They will probably have to either undergo an Orthodox conversion or to get a civil marriage in Cyprus or Las Vegas or wherever, which will be recognized in Israel. If they choose the civil marriage path, they will pass a similar problem onto their own children.

Elan

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10051 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:34 PM
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For the purposes of immigration to Israel- Aliyah, who does the nation of Israel consider a jew?

Strictly speaking, currently, a Jew is someone who was born to a Jewish mother or was converted to Judaism by a rabbi recognized by the Israeli rabbinate.

I believe Israel also accepts for Aliyah people who do not fit that strict definition, for example children and spouses of a Jewish father. But such people may face some difficulties down the road, after Aliyah.

A nitpick - it's not the "nation of Israel", it's the State of Israel. The word nation has a different definition in this context, as I explained earlier.

Elan

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Author: mapletree7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10052 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:35 PM
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I think the reason for this is because many Reform, Conservative, and other Rabbis have performed many conversions for convenience rather than because of a true desire on someones part to become Jewish. In many cases, after a couple decides to marry, the non-Jewish one undergoes one of these kinds of "conversions" just out of convenience rather than out of conviction, often just to satisfy the various family members.

Obviously it's true that there is a perception that this is the case. I defy you to prove it.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10053 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:40 PM
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I'm not saying it isn't hurtful or unemotional, but if acceptance of the Torah and the commandments is held up as the standard for what constitutes conversion and becoming "jewish", then conversions which do not meet that standard will not be seen as valid.

I beg your pardon. You're implying that converts by Reform or Conservative standards do not accept the Torah or the commandments. Do you really mean that? I think it's outrageous.

Also, qualifying for Aliyah typically has nothing to do with acceptance of Torah. You can stand in line for immigration eating a ham sandwich and your application will be accepted if your mother is Jewish.

Elan

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10054 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:46 PM
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beg your pardon. You're implying that converts by Reform or Conservative standards do not accept the Torah or the commandments. Do you really mean that? I think it's outrageous.

I didn't really want to go down this road, but how many reform converts keep shabbat by any standard, keep kosher, etc? I'm saying that if observance of the halacha is a standard and "kabbalat ol mitzvot" is your standard of a valid conversion, many converts do not fit the bill. Including those converted by orthodox rabbis, I might add. It makes the subject very tricky. If memberhood in the jewish people is defined by another standard, say service in the IDF (as some MK's wanted to redefine the law) or in a sense of "your people are my people" then that's another issue. But halachically, as far as I know, an intention of and actually keeping the commandments is a criteria. I have a friend at work who converted reform in order to marry his wife (who is non observant) and he eats pork, doesn't observe jewish holidays, etc.

Also, qualifying for Aliyah typically has nothing to do with acceptance of Torah. You can stand in line for immigration eating a ham sandwich and your application will be accepted if your mother is Jewish.

Completely agreed and I think we've established this.

-silencer

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10055 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:48 PM
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I think you're taking unnecessary offense. Nobody accused your sister or anyone like her of being insincere. All that was said was that, in some cases, the ease with which Reform and Conservative rabbis perform conversions may allow some people to convert for insincere motives. Of course, sincerity is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's more of a turf war in the American Jewish community, and the Israeli rabbinate, than anything else.

Agreed. I am probably taking unneecssary offense. That said, would it have hurt the original poster to "toss a bone" to those of serious conversion who have conviction?
Yes, the US is different from Israel in terms recognition but does that make it right?
Following where this seems to go, In the United States, religious affiliation notwithstanding, my nephews and nieces, regardless of their parent's affilliation, having been born in the borders of the US or having been born to Citizens of the US are automatically citizens of the US.

No one asks anyone to make a religious conversion of any kind to be a citizen of the United States. Desire of citizenship seems sufficient.
Even if the parents don't choose to take or pass a nonreligious test- more an informational/historical test, the offspring are automatically granted Citizenship by being born in the US.

Conversely, no one gets a "free pass" to the US because they have a historical/geographic connection to someone who lives in the US

Now that you've "shown your hand" a bit more, maybe the answer can be clearer. I gather that your sister is married to a man who is Jewish by birth.

My "hand" shouldn't be necessary to answer the question. My personal feelings should be separate from national/religious considerations.

How would you respond if I told you that my sister is married to someone who also converted to judaism- reform?


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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10056 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:50 PM
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But if a Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist Rabbi does the conversion, it will not be recognized by orthodox Rabbis, and I don't believe it will be recognized by Israel.

I think the reason for this is because many Reform, Conservative, and other Rabbis have performed many conversions for convenience rather than because of a true desire on someones part to become Jewish. In many cases, after a couple decides to marry, the non-Jewish one undergoes one of these kinds of "conversions" just out of convenience rather than out of conviction, often just to satisfy the various family members. And because it is recognized that these conversions are more due to convenience than conviction, the requirements have been severely diluted (which makes it even worse, as the actual process of conversion is also meant to culturally bring that person closer to the community, but this dilution almost eliminates that part of it). This is one of the main reasons why such conversions are looked at with so much distrust by the Rabbinate in Israel.

===========

that makes sense, yet I have heard similar things about orthodox conversions, that some of them are done for convenience. and since the fees for the conversion are not insignificant, it puts the Rabbi in the uncomfortable position of having to make sure of the purity of his own motivations.




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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10057 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:50 PM
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<<I think the reason for this is because many Reform, Conservative, and other Rabbis have performed many conversions for convenience rather than because of a true desire on someones part to become Jewish. In many cases, after a couple decides to marry, the non-Jewish one undergoes one of these kinds of "conversions" just out of convenience rather than out of conviction, often just to satisfy the various family members. And because it is recognized that these conversions are more due to convenience than conviction, the requirements have been severely diluted (which makes it even worse, as the actual process of conversion is also meant to culturally bring that person closer to the community, but this dilution almost eliminates that part of it). This is one of the main reasons why such conversions are looked at with so much distrust by the Rabbinate in Israel.>>

Can I ask how I should present this opinion to my sister who married, converted to judaism(reform), has two children- Ben, Aleah, is profoundly active in the jewish community, and contributes regularly to her adopted community, that her conversion is one of convenience lacking conviction?

When compared, her genetic family is far larger than her husband's in terms of living relatives. We all accept, validate and recognize her conversion as inconvenient as it was for her to make that decision.

I so love my sister, the jew. My brother in law- the jew is one of my best friends. My nephew, and my niece- both jews near as I can tell by their upbringing are beloved by me.

There seems to be a whole lot more conviction than convenience.

I'm sorry that you have the opinion you have concerning specific types of conversions.

I'm hopeful that if you ever meet my sister, recognize her sincerity and her commitment, you won't dismiss her conversion as a conversion of convenience. She has earned through the years, and deserves far better than your dismissive attitude towards non orthodox conversions.
She, near as I can tell, has made a committment to judaism that many who are born jews, have never made.

I wish that there were fewer jews so dismissive of a non-orthodox conversion and their commitment to their faith.

I am hopeful that your opinion of the general "feeling" concerning conversion isn't your opinion.


Right now, I get the "feeling" that you responded to my post before reading it. So, I will summarize in a single sentence - Many Reform* and Conservative Rabbis have regularly performed "sham" conversions and as such, all of their conversions have become suspect.

Just like an advanced degree from a University that doesn't maintain rigorous standards has less standing than a degree from a University that maintains good standards.

After this description of your sister, this obviously doesn't apply to her conversion, but she still suffers from this doubt through no fault of her own. That is why it would be much better for the rules of conversion to remain common for all Jews and accepted by all Jews (and, yes, this means adhering to the rules of the most stringent of the various branches).

Note: The word Jew is usually capitalized.

* (interestingly, this appears to be mostly a US phenomenon, the Reform in Britain and perhaps France appear to be much more rigorous when it comes to conversion)

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10058 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:51 PM
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that makes sense, yet I have heard similar things about orthodox conversions, that some of them are done for convenience. and since the fees for the conversion are not insignificant, it puts the Rabbi in the uncomfortable position of having to make sure of the purity of his own motivations.

It's a big responsibility to help someone convert. For instance my rabbi doesn't do conversion, because he doesn't really feel he's up to it.

-silencer

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10059 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:55 PM
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There's something important that many non-Jews and even some Jews fail to understand. Israel's concept of Jews is not primarily a religious issue, it is one of national identity. Jews have special status in Israel because Israel was founded as a state of the Jewish People, not a state of the Jewish religion. Its declaration of independence begins with "Ha'am hayehudi", not "Ha'dat hayehudit", i.e. the Jewish people (nation), not the Jewish religion.

===============

right, and that is where the orthodox domination of the laws regarding conversion sort of collide with the national as opposed to the religous nature of Israel.

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Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:56 PM
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I believe Israel also accepts for Aliyah people who do not fit that strict definition, for example children and spouses of a Jewish father. But such people may face some difficulties down the road, after Aliyah.

See, there's that "I believe' thingy that I'm not very comfortable with when having a discussion of facts. You're probably right, but I'd like to know that you are, in fact, right.

Can you help me with what you believe?


A nitpick - it's not the "nation of Israel", it's the State of Israel. The word nation has a different definition in this context, as I explained earlier.

You are correct. First, I shouldn't have made the mistake in the first place, and second, I shouldn't have repeated the mistake once the error was pointed out.

Completely blew that one. Thanks for keeping me honest. I will try not to repeat the mistake.


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Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 5:58 PM
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You're implying that converts by Reform or Conservative standards do not accept the Torah or the commandments. Do you really mean that?

I won't claim to speak for silencer, but speaking for myself, I think it's quite obvious that Reform Jews don't accept the Torah or commandments.

One recent example: the Reform position on homosexuality is quite at odds with the Torah. An older example: the notorius "treif banquet" of 1883:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060712/news_lz1f12slice.html

One can split hairs all day along about whether or not woman have to cover their hair, but the Torah is not ambiguous on homosexuality or Kashrut.

When I was young, a Conservative shul was (in theory) like Orthodox shul with mixed seating. I was raised in a Conservative environment, including 12 years of Conservative Hebrew School, so I'm talking from personal experience.

Over the years, Conservative Judaism has moved to the left, and I've moved to the right. My guess is that I wouldn't have much trouble at all documenting Conservative stances that contradict the Torah, but I don't know that for certain. (And I'm not sufficiently interested to do the research.)

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Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:01 PM
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Now that you've "shown your hand" a bit more, maybe the answer can be clearer. I gather that your sister is married to a man who is Jewish by birth. In that case the whole family should have no problem with Aliyah, as far as I know. The issue may get complicated if your niece and nephew ever want to get married as Jews in Israel. They will probably have to either undergo an Orthodox conversion or to get a civil marriage in Cyprus or Las Vegas or wherever, which will be recognized in Israel. If they choose the civil marriage path, they will pass a similar problem onto their own children.

Elan

============

yes, this is similar to my niece's story. Her parents made Aliyah from Ukraine 10 years ago. Her dad, my cousin, is Jewish and her mother is not. They had no problem making Aliyah, even though the mother was not Jewish.

my niece is now 27 and an Israeli citizen. she is engaged to a Jewish israeli, currently serving in the IDF. Because the Rabbinate does not consider her Jewish, they cannot get married in Israel, so they will go to Cypress, get married and come back.

It is quite complicated. They are a bit hurt and somewhat resentful of the orthodox because it affects them personally. he feels that he is a natural born citizen of Israel, putting his life on the line in the IDF to defend the nation, and yet he cannot marry his girlfriend, who is also an Israeli citizen.

maybe the US is on to something with the separation of church and state.



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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10064 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:01 PM
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<<I think the reason for this is because many Reform, Conservative, and other Rabbis have performed many conversions for convenience rather than because of a true desire on someones part to become Jewish. In many cases, after a couple decides to marry, the non-Jewish one undergoes one of these kinds of "conversions" just out of convenience rather than out of conviction, often just to satisfy the various family members.>>

Obviously it's true that there is a perception that this is the case. I defy you to prove it.


How can one prove something anecdotal? I have a number of anecdotes, even some that I am intimately familiar with, but how would help convince you? Even the movements themselves note that the vast majority of conversions are done shortly before or after marriage to a Jew. That would indicate to many people that the conversion is done primarily because of the marriage, otherwise the average conversion time certainly wouldn't correlate so well with the time of marriage.

Do you deny that R/C Rabbis perform many conversions solely for marriage convenience?


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10065 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:03 PM
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"I'm not saying it isn't hurtful or unemotional, but if acceptance of the Torah and the commandments is held up as the standard for what constitutes conversion and becoming "jewish", then conversions which do not meet that standard will not be seen as valid."

I beg your pardon. You're implying that converts by Reform or Conservative standards do not accept the Torah or the commandments. Do you really mean that? I think it's outrageous.

Also, qualifying for Aliyah typically has nothing to do with acceptance of Torah. You can stand in line for immigration eating a ham sandwich and your application will be accepted if your mother is Jewish.

Elan



After reading the above, I'm ever more confused about Aliyah.



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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10066 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:06 PM
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that makes sense, yet I have heard similar things about orthodox conversions, that some of them are done for convenience. and since the fees for the conversion are not insignificant, it puts the Rabbi in the uncomfortable position of having to make sure of the purity of his own motivations.

It's a big responsibility to help someone convert. For instance my rabbi doesn't do conversion, because he doesn't really feel he's up to it.

-silencer

==============

all one has to do is look at this thread to understand his hesitancy. I have been friends with a number of Rabbi's and most of them kind of dread these 'Who is a Jew' issues. They can cause hurt feelings and anger and many times there simply is no clear pathway through.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10067 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:07 PM
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After reading the above, I'm ever more confused about Aliyah.

Let's back up. There is a single criteria for Aliyah. "Jewishness" or being a first degree relative of a Jew.

If a person is born Jewish, regardless of observance or non observance, their Jewish status remains. So Jews eating non kosher food on the Aliyah line won't have issues.

If someone converts, then the issue is whether or not the conversion is valid, and if the person is actually "Jewish" following the conversion. This is the gray area. We haven't come to a definite conclusion of what the people in charge of aliyah consider a "valid conversion".

-silencer

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10068 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:08 PM
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Yes, the US is different from Israel in terms recognition but does that make it right?


Being the same or different makes neither of them right or wrong. My point was that the US concept is not universal and is not necessarily the only "right" one.

Following where this seems to go, In the United States, religious affiliation notwithstanding, my nephews and nieces, regardless of their parent's affilliation, having been born in the borders of the US or having been born to Citizens of the US are automatically citizens of the US.

So does a child born in Israel, Jewish or not, become a citizen of Israel automatically.

No one asks anyone to make a religious conversion of any kind to be a citizen of the United States. Desire of citizenship seems sufficient.
Even if the parents don't choose to take or pass a nonreligious test- more an informational/historical test, the offspring are automatically granted Citizenship by being born in the US.


You do have to swear allegiance to become a naturalized US citizen. And offspring are automatically citizens in Israel as well. There's really no difference.

Conversely, no one gets a "free pass" to the US because they have a historical/geographic connection to someone who lives in the US

I believe that if you were born abroad to US citizens and then you arrive in the US as an adult you can still claim citizenship. Similarly, Israel extends citizenship to the decendants of its former citizens, except that in this case since Jews were exiled from their land many generations ago, that right is extended over many generations. And that is what's really at the core of the Law of Return, not your religious belief or practice.

Elan

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10069 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:10 PM
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Completely agreed and I think we've established this.

-silencer



On the other hand, any jew who doesn't convert to another religion but doesn't observe the shabbat, or any other jewish religious ritual and in fact may be an atheist is more a jew to the state of Israel than is a reform or Conservative convert.

The Russians might speak to this issue.


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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10072 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:11 PM
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On the other hand, any jew who doesn't convert to another religion but doesn't observe the shabbat, or any other jewish religious ritual and in fact may be an atheist is more a jew to the state of Israel than is a reform or Conservative convert.

Potnetially yes. But like I said we don't have a definitive answer on the board.

-silencer

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10073 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:11 PM
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that makes sense, yet I have heard similar things about orthodox conversions, that some of them are done for convenience. and since the fees for the conversion are not insignificant, it puts the Rabbi in the uncomfortable position of having to make sure of the purity of his own motivations.

Hope it won't damage your reputation for me to say "Nice post".


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Author: mapletree7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10074 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:12 PM
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How can one prove something anecdotal?

Exactly?

Even the movements themselves note that the vast majority of conversions are done shortly before or after marriage to a Jew. That would indicate to many people that the conversion is done primarily because of the marriage, otherwise the average conversion time certainly wouldn't correlate so well with the time of marriage.

My conversion was completed shortly before my marriage. Certainly that timing would indicate things to many people that are untrue, and I have often had to correct the misperception that I converted because of my marriage.

Do you deny that R/C Rabbis perform many conversions solely for marriage convenience?

I don't need to deny it. I am not the one asserting it, therefore I do not bear the burden of truth. Particularly since it is such an insulting statement.

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10075 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:26 PM
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Right now, I get the "feeling" that you responded to my post before reading it. So, I will summarize in a single sentence - Many Reform* and Conservative Rabbis have regularly performed "sham" conversions and as such, all of their conversions have become suspect

I try to avoid the "negative thing". It would have been generous of you to point out that not every conversion is a conversion of convenience.

As its been pointed out, maybe I'm a little oversensitive on the issue.
That I'd hope that anyone addressing the issue of conversion might indicate that some might be sincere in their conversion is in all fairness, completely unreasonable.


Just like an advanced degree from a University that doesn't maintain rigorous standards has less standing than a degree from a University that maintains good standards.

Agreed. Anyone who sincerely converts and maintains a lifestyle consistent with their conversion should be allways suspect if their conversion fits a stereotype of conversion.

After this description of your sister, this obviously doesn't apply to her conversion, but she still suffers from this doubt through no fault of her own. That is why it would be much better for the rules of conversion to remain common for all Jews and accepted by all Jews (and, yes, this means adhering to the rules of the most stringent of the various branches).

I'm so lost on the above.

Note: The word Jew is usually capitalized.

Yes it is. So is the word christian,moslem, yada yada. In my opinion, the capitalization of religious or ethnic titles grants more import than is deserved. Its a personal choice.




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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10076 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:27 PM
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It's a big responsibility to help someone convert. For instance my rabbi doesn't do conversion, because he doesn't really feel he's up to it.

-silencer


How sad that must be to some members of his congregation.


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Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:32 PM
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It is quite complicated. They are a bit hurt and somewhat resentful of the orthodox because it affects them personally. he feels that he is a natural born citizen of Israel, putting his life on the line in the IDF to defend the nation, and yet he cannot marry his girlfriend, who is also an Israeli citizen.

maybe the US is on to something with the separation of church and state.


Dov,
What the heck is going on here? Can't we figure out another way to despise one another? :-)


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10078 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:34 PM
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Do you deny that R/C Rabbis perform many conversions solely for marriage convenience?

Is that conversion, as it applies to Israel and Aliyah any more convenient than just being born a jew?


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Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:37 PM
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If someone converts, then the issue is whether or not the conversion is valid, and if the person is actually "Jewish" following the conversion. This is the gray area. We haven't come to a definite conclusion of what the people in charge of aliyah consider a "valid conversion".

-silencer


Why not? Heck, you don't even have to be dunked in water to be "born again".


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10080 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:42 PM
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You do have to swear allegiance to become a naturalized US citizen. And offspring are automatically citizens in Israel as well. There's really no difference.

I guess I'm confused or maybe there's some stuff I'm missing.

Are you stating that everyone born in Isreal is automatically a citizen or are you stating that everyone born in Israel is a citizen that has exactly the same status of everyone else born in Israel?

Is there a distinction/difference?


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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10082 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:51 PM
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no problemo.

Listen dr, i think I can nutshell some of this for you.

If your sisters family wants to make Aliyah, they will have no problem. Even if her Reform conversion is not recognized, they will let her in because her husband is Jewish. and there is no reason she can't become a citizen.

Later on, like my niece, there may be some issues to handle, but most of them can be handled.



The fairness or unfairness of this can be debated endlessly, as evidenced by this thread. There is an old Jewish joke, ask 5 Jews a question, get 37 different answers.


Dov

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10083 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:54 PM
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Potnetially yes. But like I said we don't have a definitive answer on the board.

Honesty appreciated.

This is the sort of "potential" I have issues with. Shouldn't there be an answer a little more definitive than "we'd really rather not address a question that makes us uncomfortable"?



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Author: mapletree7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10084 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:57 PM
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Potnetially yes. But like I said we don't have a definitive answer on the board.

Honesty appreciated.

This is the sort of "potential" I have issues with. Shouldn't there be an answer a little more definitive than "we'd really rather not address a question that makes us uncomfortable"?


The different branches of Judaism have different answers to these questions and that's just the way it is. As for the government of Israel - it should have one answer. But this is not the government of Israel. This is a message board.

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10085 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:58 PM
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I don't need to deny it. I am not the one asserting it, therefore I do not bear the burden of truth. Particularly since it is such an insulting statement.

Maple, you're not the jewish convert married to my jewish convert sister are you?

If you are, I take back every nasty, mean spirited thing I ever said to you pr about you.

If not, who'd have ever thought we might be on the same page or even in the same library ? :-)


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Author: mapletree7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10086 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 6:59 PM
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I have been wondering. But my BIL isn't a vet, so I think we're safe.

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Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 7:00 PM
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The fairness or unfairness of this can be debated endlessly, as evidenced by this thread. There is an old Jewish joke, ask 5 Jews a question, get 37 different answers.


Dov


Only 37? you folks are beginning to disappoint me.


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Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 7:04 PM
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The different branches of Judaism have different answers to these questions and that's just the way it is. As for the government of Israel - it should have one answer. But this is not the government of Israel. This is a message board.

Agreed, but I was kinda hoping the folks on this board who are supportive of Aliyah would know the rules in order to know who it was good for and why.



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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10089 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 7:30 PM
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<<Even the movements themselves note that the vast majority of conversions are done shortly before or after marriage to a Jew. That would indicate to many people that the conversion is done primarily because of the marriage, otherwise the average conversion time certainly wouldn't correlate so well with the time of marriage.>>

My conversion was completed shortly before my marriage. Certainly that timing would indicate things to many people that are untrue, and I have often had to correct the misperception that I converted because of my marriage.


Sure it might lead folks who don't know you to the wrong conclusion, but you know the truth, and the people that know you know the truth. And isn't that what really matters?

<<Do you deny that R/C Rabbis perform many conversions solely for marriage convenience?>>

I don't need to deny it. I am not the one asserting it, therefore I do not bear the burden of truth. Particularly since it is such an insulting statement.


And that, of course, is just my point. When certain Rabbis do "convenience conversions" with hardly any requirements or effort involved, not only is it insulting to those who convert out of conviction and have done all the hard work involved, but it is insulting to much of the rest of the Jewish world as well!

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10090 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 7:40 PM
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<<Right now, I get the "feeling" that you responded to my post before reading it. So, I will summarize in a single sentence - Many Reform* and Conservative Rabbis have regularly performed "sham" conversions and as such, all of their conversions have become suspect>>

I try to avoid the "negative thing". It would have been generous of you to point out that not every conversion is a conversion of convenience.


Which I clearly did point out ("many" doesn't mean "all", it doesn't even mean "most"). Nowhere have I even claimed that "every conversion is a conversion of convenience", and why would I claim such a thing since I definitely don't believe it to be true!

That I'd hope that anyone addressing the issue of conversion might indicate that some might be sincere in their conversion is in all fairness, completely unreasonable.

Frankly, I think that anyone who wants to convent to Judaism is a bit nuts - who the heck wants all the problems involved with being a Jew anyway? ("Ist shver tzu zein a Yid" :-) And because of that, in all cases outside of clearly converting for marriage, I always assume sincerity, not just sincerity, but deep sincerity!

<<Note: The word Jew is usually capitalized.>>

Yes it is. So is the word christian,moslem, yada yada. In my opinion, the capitalization of religious or ethnic titles grants more import than is deserved. Its a personal choice.


So is bathing. But if you want your discourse with others to be comfortable, it is highly recommended.

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10092 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 8:39 PM
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Sure it might lead folks who don't know you to the wrong conclusion, but you know the truth, and the people that know you know the truth. And isn't that what really matters?

In the US, it matters quite a bit- Anyone but me ever seen the poster "Shiksas are for practice"?.

As to my original queation, if what people know to be the truth, regardless of method of conversion, why does the state of Israel have a problem with method of conversion when it comes to Aliyah?

<Do you deny that R/C Rabbis perform many conversions solely for marriage convenience?>

Do you have a problem with adding more jews to the roster?


"I don't need to deny it. I am not the one asserting it, therefore I do not bear the burden of truth. Particularly since it is such an insulting statement."

And that, of course, is just my point. When certain Rabbis do "convenience conversions" with hardly any requirements or effort involved, not only is it insulting to those who convert out of conviction and have done all the hard work involved, but it is insulting to much of the rest of the Jewish world as well!

It would be helpful if you would specify which Rabbis do convenience conversions. It would buttress your argument if you could document that such a thing actually exists. It would further buttress your argument if you could document that "convenience conversions", if they exist, are harmful to judaism.
After you've done that, it would be edifying if you could prove that these convenience conversions, are more harmful to judaism than non-practicing jews who reject, deny and avoid having any connection with their origins.

What's more insulting, A jew who entirely rejects her heritage or a convenience convert who embrases the faith and actively engages the community.
As to Aliyah, which was my original question, which would you give preference to?



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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10093 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 8:52 PM
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Frankly, I think that anyone who wants to convent to Judaism is a bit nuts

I'll pass that on to my family members especially the converts. What a delightful opinion.

<Note: The word Jew is usually capitalized.

"Yes it is. So is the word christian,moslem, yada yada. In my opinion, the capitalization of religious or ethnic titles grants more import than is deserved. Its a personal choice."

So is bathing. But if you want your discourse with others to be comfortable, it is highly recommended.

I'm confused as usual. Are you suggesting that discours with others to be comfortable has bathing as a highly recommended exercise? I don't dismiss the possibility but I haven't been able to smell a single person over the internet.

As to the capitalization thing, if its important to you, just type in capitals where you think they ought to be. Its a pretty good bet you're not a relative of ee cummungs.

I really don't understand why upper case vs lower case has any impact on the discussion but as I know so little, i am willing to be informed.


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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10094 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:10 PM
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I'm guessing again, without proof to the contrary, that you meant "To convert" and not "Te convert". If wrong, again, I apologize for doing the electronic equivalent of putting words in your mouth.


Dude, you're too much now:) talk about a complete 180. We're not that sensitive:)

Mark



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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10095 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:16 PM
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Here we go .

You dont know what you are talking about .

And I wont let you waste another second of my time .


I think his questions are valid. If we cannot question our belief system and religious laws, maybe it's not worth believing.

In my opinion, it only makes us better Jews if we examine our beliefs.

Mark

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10096 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:23 PM
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that makes sense, yet I have heard similar things about orthodox conversions, that some of them are done for convenience. and since the fees for the conversion are not insignificant, it puts the Rabbi in the uncomfortable position of having to make sure of the purity of his own motivations.


Excellent point. We had a fair share of experiences with Rabbis who seem to perform a wedding simply for the monetary value.

Our best friends hired one of those.

Mark

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10097 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:28 PM
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Which I clearly did point out ("many" doesn't mean "all", it doesn't even mean "most"). Nowhere have I even claimed that "every conversion is a conversion of convenience", and why would I claim such a thing since I definitely don't believe it to be true!

Yes, of course, you are correct. That said, have you ever, in this discussion made a positive post about conversion?


Frankly, I think that anyone who wants to convent to Judaism is a bit nuts
Of course, my sister agrees.
- who the heck wants all the problems involved with being a Jew anyway? ("Ist shver tzu zein a Yid" :-)

Maybe those who recognize the profoundly humanistic impact judaisim has had on humanity?

And because of that, in all cases outside of clearly converting for marriage, I always assume sincerity, not just sincerity, but deep sincerity!

You lost me. My original point of concern was how converts to judaism were treated by the laws of the State of Israel as it applies to Aliyah.

I'd appreciated your informed opinion on this issue.


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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10098 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:29 PM
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The fairness or unfairness of this can be debated endlessly, as evidenced by this thread. There is an old Jewish joke, ask 5 Jews a question, get 37 different answers.


Up to 89 now:)

Mark

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10099 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:32 PM
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In the US, it matters quite a bit- Anyone but me ever seen the poster "Shiksas are for practice"?.


LOL!
Where can I get it? I think my bro would kill me if I gave it to him as a present:)

Mark

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10100 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:40 PM
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"I'm guessing again, without proof to the contrary, that you meant "To convert" and not "Te convert". If wrong, again, I apologize for doing the electronic equivalent of putting words in your mouth."

Dude, you're too much now:) talk about a complete 180. We're not that sensitive:)

Mark


You'd be right and I'd be oversensitive if "te" didn't have a specific Hebrew meaning or specify a element in the periodic table.

If I got the subtle inference wrong, I'm pretty sure that someone would be more than happy to hand me my head on a plate.

There seems to be a lot of "just cuz I said, doesen't mean that I meant" going on. Maybe not here but maybe just the same.

Te can mean a number of things.

Who am I to know what was the writer's intent?

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Author: Mitamuna Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10101 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:44 PM
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Who am I to know what was the writer's intent?


To eliminate any future source of confusion here is what everyone should do.

If you're using Firefox or similar, download SpellBound Development extension ( My personal fav as it highlights misspelled words as you type) or Google toolbar and use the built in form spell checker.

If using IE, download IESpell or again, use Google toolbar.

Mark

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10102 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/23/2006 10:47 PM
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"The fairness or unfairness of this can be debated endlessly, as evidenced by this thread. There is an old Jewish joke, ask 5 Jews a question, get 37 different answers."

Up to 89 now:)

Mark


And I'm delighted. Anything less than fifty opinions from 5 jews makes want to consider pestering the Bahai or the Buddhists. You've restored my faith:)


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10103 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 2:01 AM
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See, there's that "I believe' thingy that I'm not very comfortable with when having a discussion of facts. You're probably right, but I'd like to know that you are, in fact, right.

Can you help me with what you believe?


I've told you what I know. I could research further for your benefit, or you could do so. Since you're apparently more motivated, and would probably benefit from getting direct information rather than through my intermediation, I think it's probably best if you pursue the issue further on your own. And please report back if you're able to confirm or deny what you've read here.

You do have to swear allegiance to become a naturalized US citizen. And offspring are automatically citizens in Israel as well. There's really no difference.

I guess I'm confused or maybe there's some stuff I'm missing.

Are you stating that everyone born in Isreal is automatically a citizen or are you stating that everyone born in Israel is a citizen that has exactly the same status of everyone else born in Israel?

Is there a distinction/difference?


I don't think I phrased that very well. I was trying to make two separate comparisons betwen the US and Israel in one paragraph. Let me rephrase:

1. You have to swear allegiance to become a naturalized US citizen. You have to swear allegiance to the Jewish nation by converting to Judaism to become a naturalized Israeli citizen. There's really no difference.
(BTW, if you are Jewish by birth you are not considered a "naturalized" citizen, you are merely a Jew claiming his birthright to citizenship. By Israel's declaration of independence the State of Israel belongs to all the Jewish people.)

2. The offspring of US citizens automatically become US citizens. The offsring of Israeli citizens automatically become Israeli citizens. There's really no difference.

This is the sort of "potential" I have issues with. Shouldn't there be an answer a little more definitive than "we'd really rather not address a question that makes us uncomfortable"?

I haven't seen anyone here avoid the question because it makes them uncomfortable. Rather, several people have highlighted the complexity, the unfairness in some cases, and given their most honest understanding and opinion. Perhaps it's your discomfort with the answers that causes you to continue doubting that you got valid answers.

Agreed, but I was kinda hoping the folks on this board who are supportive of Aliyah would know the rules in order to know who it was good for and why.

I think several people have repeated the same answer as it applies to your family's particular situation. Those answers are to the best of our collective knowledge. I don't understand what more you expect. None of us are Israeli government representatives, nor are we lawyers, nor do we play lawyers on TV. To be absolutely sure we gave you the right answer you have no choice but to speak to the proper authorities. No one here is going to carry that responsibility for you.

pestering

I wonder, is that your real purpose?

Elan

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10104 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 2:07 AM
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One recent example: the Reform position on homosexuality is quite at odds with the Torah.

I've heard that example before. But there are many other examples where present day practices are at odds with the Torah and no one, not even the ultra-Orthodox seems to have a problem with it. How many times does the Torah specify death by stoning for various sins? Have we seen anyone executed by stoning lately? How many actions are punishable by death, apart from homosexuality? What about "lo taase lecha pesel o tmuna"? Or lo tinaf? Do we literally follow the Torah on each and every one of those things?

Elan

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10107 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 2:25 AM
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Even the movements themselves note that the vast majority of conversions are done shortly before or after marriage to a Jew. That would indicate to many people that the conversion is done primarily because of the marriage, otherwise the average conversion time certainly wouldn't correlate so well with the time of marriage.

Do you deny that R/C Rabbis perform many conversions solely for marriage convenience?


I don't see how a conversion shortly before or after marriage is "for convenience". What is convenient about it? Isn't it more convenient to go to city hall and get married in a civil ceremony? If someone converts around the time of marriage it means they have chosen to spend the rest of their lives within the faith of their Jewish spouse. Is that a matter of convenience or a matter of lifelong commitment? If someone chooses to convert around the time of marriage it usually means that they want the most precious people in their lives, their unborn children, to grow up and spend their lives as Jews. Is that a matter of convenience or of life long commitment?

IMO "marriage convenience" is a non-sequitur.

Elan

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Author: corse Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10108 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 3:46 AM
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I see nothing changes regards religeon and conversion


corse

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10109 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 5:52 AM
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I've heard stories of nasty infighting among and between some of the orthodox groups regarding getting those conversion 'clients' and getting their fees.

Money corrupts, even among those who are supposed to be immune.

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10110 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 6:39 AM
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Money corrupts

Link please.

Abe

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10111 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 8:13 AM
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Money corrupts

Link please.

Abe

===============

Here are some links to the poster formerly known as dovbaer6, before and after he won the Powerball lottery of $220 million dollars.

mr baer6 went on a binge of drinking, drugs, womanizing, and gluttony. what a sad sad state from this formerly blessed man.

here is a shot of me before I won the lottery:

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1390/Mptv/1390/8864_0027.jpg?path=gallery&path_key=0087182


here is a shot of me 6 months after I won:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:McMillan_as_Harkonnen.jpg



See what can become of a wonderful person under the influence of too much money? (and btw, don't pay attention to the captions on the photos, the names have been changed to protect my identity.


dov

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10112 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 8:19 AM
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How many times does the Torah specify death by stoning for various sins? Have we seen anyone executed by stoning lately?
Unfortunately, there is no Jewish court anywhere which is permitted to act in criminal matters.

Even then, the burden of proof made convictions virtually unheard of. To convict someone of a capital offense, the following must take place:
1. The accused must have announced or otherwise made plain his intent to commit the crime.
2. He must have then been warned that his action was a crime.
3. He must then commit the crime.
4. The crime must be witnessed by at least two Jewish men.

Assuming that all these conditions existed, I'd have no problem with a Jewish court condemning a man to death.

What about "lo taase lecha pesel o tmuna"?
I've heard an accusation that Lubavitch Chasidim are guilty of this -- most (if not all) of them have at least one photo of their late Rebbe in their homes. On Shabbos & Yom Tov some of them drink a toast "to the rebbe," and actually turn toward his photo when they do so.

But most Jews certainly don't do this.

lo tinaf
Come now, surely you're not speaking out in favor of adultery? Or are you saying the punishment is too harsh?

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10113 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 10:14 AM
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I don't see how a conversion shortly before or after marriage is "for convenience". What is convenient about it? Isn't it more convenient to go to city hall and get married in a civil ceremony? If someone converts around the time of marriage it means they have chosen to spend the rest of their lives within the faith of their Jewish spouse. Is that a matter of convenience or a matter of lifelong commitment? If someone chooses to convert around the time of marriage it usually means that they want the most precious people in their lives, their unborn children, to grow up and spend their lives as Jews. Is that a matter of convenience or of life long commitment?

IMO "marriage convenience" is a non-sequitur.


The likely reason that you "don't see it" is because you live in Israel. But here in the USA, many partially assimilated Jewish families have a strong desire for their kids being married to someone Jewish. But their kids often choose to marry someone that isn't Jewish. In those cases, what usually happens is that the non-Jewish spouse is encouraged to find a Rabbi and to convert to Judaism. That way, they suddenly become Jewish, and the family doesn't have to go through those uncomfortable situations explaining it to friend/family/acquaintences/etc at later times. It is, unfortunately, remarkably common in the USA (and less common outside the USA for various reasons). The fully assimilated usually don't care one way or another, perhaps a good definition of "fully assimilated" would be "those who do not make any effort (like marrying Jews) to ensure that their descendants will be Jewish".

But I never said that the kind of person described in your post doesn't have good reasons, and they are often very good reasons, to convert. All I am saying is that that set of good reasons may not be sufficient to create a valid conversion.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10114 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 11:30 AM
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I think Elan lives in California, but I could be wrong.

-silencer

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Author: mapletree7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10115 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 11:43 AM
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The likely reason that you "don't see it" is because you live in Israel. But here in the USA, many partially assimilated Jewish families have a strong desire for their kids being married to someone Jewish. But their kids often choose to marry someone that isn't Jewish. In those cases, what usually happens is that the non-Jewish spouse is encouraged to find a Rabbi and to convert to Judaism. That way, they suddenly become Jewish, and the family doesn't have to go through those uncomfortable situations explaining it to friend/family/acquaintences/etc at later times. It is, unfortunately, remarkably common in the USA (and less common outside the USA for various reasons). The fully assimilated usually don't care one way or another, perhaps a good definition of "fully assimilated" would be "those who do not make any effort (like marrying Jews) to ensure that their descendants will be Jewish".

And again, I'm sure there is a PERCEPTION that this happens often, which you are helping to further. Perhaps you know someone like this? But consider, the vast majority of converts would not bring themselves to your attention. You notice the guy eating the ham sandwich and feel free to make insulting generalizations. You don't notice the members of your congregation who are practicing converts of long-standing, because what need would you have to know they are converts?

I find your repeated assertion that this is 'what usually happens' 'remarkably common' unwarranted and irresponsible.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10116 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 12:57 PM
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<<The likely reason that you "don't see it" is because you live in Israel. But here in the USA, many partially assimilated Jewish families have a strong desire for their kids being married to someone Jewish. But their kids often choose to marry someone that isn't Jewish. In those cases, what usually happens is that the non-Jewish spouse is encouraged to find a Rabbi and to convert to Judaism. That way, they suddenly become Jewish, and the family doesn't have to go through those uncomfortable situations explaining it to friend/family/acquaintences/etc at later times. It is, unfortunately, remarkably common in the USA (and less common outside the USA for various reasons). The fully assimilated usually don't care one way or another, perhaps a good definition of "fully assimilated" would be "those who do not make any effort (like marrying Jews) to ensure that their descendants will be Jewish".>>

And again, I'm sure there is a PERCEPTION that this happens often, which you are helping to further. Perhaps you know someone like this? But consider, the vast majority of converts would not bring themselves to your attention. You notice the guy eating the ham sandwich and feel free to make insulting generalizations. You don't notice the members of your congregation who are practicing converts of long-standing, because what need would you have to know they are converts?


I haven't said much about converts in this thread, other than I believe that anyone who goes through the long process and the hard work of converting has almost got to be sincere (because it is "difficult to be a Jew"). This discussion is about why conversions by R/C are not generally accepted by the Rabbinate in Israel, and my comments centered around that.

As an aside, it is not permissible "to notice" converts, and it is not permissible to mention to others that "so and so is a convert". A convert (properly converted, of course) is a Jew just like any other Jew from birth.

I find your repeated assertion that this is 'what usually happens' 'remarkably common' unwarranted and irresponsible.

I guess it depends on how you define "remarkably common", but I think the rate of intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews in the USA could properly be described that way. And I admit that I may be wrong about "what usually happens" when a child announces they plan to marry a non-Jew to a family that cares about being Jewish. What do you think usually happens in such a case? Or do you think that there is no "usually" and that each family handles it in their own way? Now that I think about it some more, that is most likely.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10117 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 1:30 PM
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Money corrupts

Link please.


What's with this glib "link please" that's repeated senselessly.

It's an opinion for heaven's sake.

Elan

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10118 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 1:41 PM
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Unfortunately, there is no Jewish court anywhere which is permitted to act in criminal matters.

Unfortuantely? How would Jews be different from Saudi Arabians or Iranians if we imposed biblical law on the people?

lo tinaf
Come now, surely you're not speaking out in favor of adultery? Or are you saying the punishment is too harsh?


Yes, I'm saying that the punishment prescribed in the Torah is not considered seriously by anyone.

I'm saying that when adultery happens, even in an Orthodox community, people who know about it often just look the other way. They don't treat it as a crime unless it affects them personally. The same should be the case with homosexuality. It should not be the big divisive issue that some make of it.

Elan

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10119 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 1:44 PM
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The likely reason that you "don't see it" is because you live in Israel.

Wrong.

Elan

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10120 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 2:12 PM
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<<The likely reason that you "don't see it" is because you live in Israel.>>

Wrong.


So why don't you see it? :-) Perhaps I should have said "because you are Israeli" instead.


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10121 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 2:27 PM
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So why don't you see it? :-) Perhaps I should have said "because you are Israeli" instead.

I don't see it because I don't think it's true. People who bother to convert are doing so as a commitment and not as a convenience. There is nothing convenient about becoming Jewish in America.

In Israel it may be different. To fit in, to avoid various kinds of discimination, people may want to assimilate by becoming Jewish.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10122 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 3:01 PM
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How would Jews be different from Saudi Arabians or Iranians if we imposed biblical law on the people?
Because those countries don't impose biblical law on people.

I'm saying that the punishment prescribed in the Torah is not considered seriously by anyone.
If you mean no one is dissuaded from adultery by this theoretical punishment, then yes, but perhaps that's because at this point in our history the punishment is entirely theoretical?

Of course, even in ancient times it was unlikely that anyone was convicted -- because that would require two witnesses, and adultery is usually done in private.

people who know about it often just look the other way.
How could anyone (except the principal parties involved) know for certain that it had happened? Even if I saw behavior that looked suspicious, the halacha of dan lechaf zechus requires me to presume an innocent explanation. (This is not the same thing as "looking the other way.")

I've just realized (a bit belatedly) that you've changed the topic. We had been talking about Reform acceptance or rejection of the Torah. Does your choosing to change the topic imply that you now agree that Reform do not accept the Torah?

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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10123 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 3:21 PM
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" Unfortunately, there is no Jewish court anywhere which is permitted to act in criminal matters."

Incorrect . While no Beth Din may act in cases of , for instance , a violent felony . Many rabinical courts are empowered to adjudicate matters of fraud , theft , and other matters. Not only are they empowered to do so the ruling issued is binding legaly before seculat authorities .


This is a complex issue . As in the case of conversion far to serious and complicated to discuss in this format.


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10124 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 3:56 PM
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I've just realized (a bit belatedly) that you've changed the topic. We had been talking about Reform acceptance or rejection of the Torah. Does your choosing to change the topic imply that you now agree that Reform do not accept the Torah?

I'm saying that it's wrong to claim that Reform Jews reject the Torah by citing as an example that they don't condemn homosexuality.

Elan

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10125 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 3:56 PM
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<<So why don't you see it? :-) Perhaps I should have said "because you are Israeli" instead.>>

I don't see it because I don't think it's true. People who bother to convert are doing so as a commitment and not as a convenience. There is nothing convenient about becoming Jewish in America.


But again that is exactly my point. I also believe that people who "bother to convert" do so because of commitment, but I also believe that people who convert because they are marrying, or married to, a Jew do so primarily because they are marrying, or married to, a Jew and not primarily because of their commitment to Judaism. And that some Rabbis have diluted the difficult and time-consuming process of conversion (some have even eliminated the requirement of Milah, circumcision for men!) and therefore some people look askance at such conversions.

There's nothing convenient about being Jewish anywhere, except perhaps Israel, end even there, being Jewish might be a liability because there are hostile people all around you that want to murder you.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10126 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 4:00 PM
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How would Jews be different from Saudi Arabians or Iranians if we imposed biblical law on the people?
Because those countries don't impose biblical law on people.


Please don't try to get cute with me. You know exactly what I mean. In case you're not sure, I'm saying that a country that is run by Jewish religious courts following biblical law would be no better than an Islamic country run by Sharia law.

Elan

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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10127 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 4:10 PM
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" I'm saying that a country that is run by Jewish religious courts following biblical law would be no better than an Islamic country run by Sharia law."

You need to do your homework Elan .

If you cant recognize a difference between -

an Islamic court , which prohibits " non believers " from either bringing legal action or testifying against a Moslem -

and a Jewish court , OBLIGATED to hear testimony from ALL regardless of religion or race and in which ANY HUMAN BEING can bring legal action against another


Then its time to open some books .

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10130 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 4:57 PM
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a country that is run by Jewish religious courts following biblical law
Like ancient Israel, for example?

would be no better than an Islamic country run by Sharia law.
Like Saudi Arabia, for example?

Do you really think courts that regularly put people to death or chop off their hands are equivalent to courts that never maimed people and rarely or never put them to death?

Do you really think there is moral equivalency here?

The Mishnah states that any Sanhedrin that enforced a death penalty once in seven years, or even once in seventy years, was to be labeled a “bloody Sanhedrin.”

So far as I can recall, the only other physical punishment was malkos (lashes). Nobody was sent to rot in prison -- imprisonment is not a specified punishment.

Also remember that the burden of proof for conviction was quite high. And there was no prosecuting attorney.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10131 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 5:07 PM
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So far as I can recall, the only other physical punishment was malkos (lashes). Nobody was sent to rot in prison -- imprisonment is not a specified punishment.

nitpick, but i think it's just makkot. no l/lamed.

-silencer

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10132 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 5:19 PM
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nitpick, but i think it's just makkot. no l/lamed.

See here:
http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?showtopic=5924

excerpt:
makos is the Biblical word for lashes or hitting, but literally means hit. in the Torah it's used many times (if not most of the time not referring to the 39 malkus but rather) as a word to be translated as hitting. If one man hits/smites his friend.
The 10 Makos hashem brought on Eygot.

Malkos is the mishnaic word and is usually limited to refer to specifically the 39 Malkus a person gets when he transgresses certain Laavin/negative commandments.


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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10133 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 6:00 PM
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a country that is run by Jewish religious courts following biblical law
Like ancient Israel, for example?

would be no better than an Islamic country run by Sharia law.
Like Saudi Arabia, for example?

Do you really think courts that regularly put people to death or chop off their hands are equivalent to courts that never maimed people and rarely or never put them to death?

Do you really think there is moral equivalency here?


I don't think it's appropriate to compare ancient and modern situations. Ancient society may have been less violent both in terms of frequency and severity of crimes commited, and in terms of punishment. I don't know. It's really not the main issue.

The issue I have, in which I think there would be equivalence, is that a religious law is imposed on people and administered by religious authorities who are not answerable to the people. The practice of religion should be a personal choice. It should not be forced on any person against his will. The laws that govern our lives should be made by the people for the people, not imposed by someone who claims to know god's will.

Elan

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Author: cornfolio Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10134 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 6:15 PM
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If you cant recognize a difference between -

an Islamic court , which prohibits " non believers " from either bringing legal action or testifying against a Moslem -

and a Jewish court , OBLIGATED to hear testimony from ALL regardless of religion or race and in which ANY HUMAN BEING can bring legal action against another


Then its time to open some books .


Excellent point.

From thousands of years ago, in a Jewish court of law you even have documented minority opinions. Required witnesses. Votes and rulings from multiple judges. In short, a very fair system, willing to give all a chance.

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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10135 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 9:47 PM
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"pestering"

I wonder, is that your real purpose?

Elan


The questions I ask, often suggest that I am doing nothing more than "pestering". I don't have a problem admitting that.

My experience has been that asking "pestering" quesions often means one is asking questions that annoy people.


Sometimes the annoyance comes from the fact that the questioner ought to be better informed- in that case, as I've previously stated; ignorance is curable.
Sometimes, the annoyance comes from the fact that "those who are supposed to know the answer" are confronted with a question that they might have asked but didn't.

When this happens, those who are supposed to know seem to get upset.

Wnen you ask a seemingly obvious question like "Should jews support Aliyah?", the immediate answer seems to be "yes".

But since some jews don't support Aliyah, or Zionism, or even the existence of the State of Isreal and these issues are further compounded by how the State of Isreal, and the diaspora determine who is and who is not a jew, and how that determination affects every part of the life of someone who commits to Aliyah, one would hope for meaningful answers.
It seems simple to me. If you are and Advocate of Aliyah, you should be able to be explicit in why you are an advocate and what those who commit to Aliyah should expect both for themselves and for their offspring.

If you rah cheer Aliyah and don't know the consequences, how can you "rah cheer"

If you claim that Aliyah is the best thing that you can do as a jew and you haven't done it, does your opinion count?

If you claim that all of those who are truly jews will do well with Aliyah but when asked "who is a jew" you get "you'll have to ask the experts and the experts won't answer the question, how can you know who is a jew.
Individual opinion on these issues are appreciated especially those that don't call converts "Nuts" or convenience converts.

Its been suggested that I consult an Orthodox Rabbi who is qualified. This suggests that none other than qualified Orthodox Rabbis count but then I get posts that suggest that Orthodox Rabbis fight over conversions for purely financial reasons.

In an attempt to summarize, near as I can tell. Conversions R/C are usually considered convenience conversions by most jews and are dismissed by the State of Israel. Orthodox conversions are recognized by the state of Israel but some view the conversion process as an economic versus as religious issue.
Jews view converts as either nuts or convenience converts.

Aliyah- All that I can figure is that if I want to convert to judaism so that I might want to emigrate to Israel, I can expect to be called nuts, fought over by Orthodox Rabbis who are in it for the money; Scorned by jews who are jews by accident of birth should I choose to convert R/C because the conversion corresponds with a marriage ceremony, and is dismissed as a "too weak" conversion by a nonpracticing jew because I didn't do Orthodox.

I don't think I'm asking unreasonable questions.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10137 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/24/2006 11:37 PM
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drrick,

It seems to me that you do have an exceptional knack for pestering. You glean every negative aspect possible from our discussion and discard the positive. Ultimately you show no appreciation whatsoever for the effort people have made to answer your question, assuming perhaps mistakenly that you were seeking informative answers.

This is the second time you've dragged me into a senseless debate, doing your best to test my patience. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. No more. Welcome to my P box.

Elan

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10139 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 5:53 AM
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What's with this glib "link please" that's repeated senselessly.


Elan


Ask Dov.

Abe


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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10140 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 6:04 AM
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What's with this glib "link please" that's repeated senselessly.


Elan

Ask Dov.

Abe


---------------

Link please!


(trouble macher)

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Author: menachembenyakov Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10141 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 8:20 AM
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elan , Better late than never . Thats where he belongs .

A man is dieing of thirst in the dessert . If omeone finds him and offers water he doesnt say " I dont like the cup " . Conversion , with which I have some familiarity , is not expensive , in fact for those with little money there is no charge .
As with any type of certification , from a passport to a degree from Harvard , there is the bogus and the real .
We understand.
I enjoy your posts . Shabbat Shalom . Menachem

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10143 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 9:19 AM
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What's with this glib "link please" that's repeated senselessly.

It's an opinion for heaven's sake.


There are no opinions on the Internet. If there is no link, then it isn't true. Conversely, if there is a link, it must be true.

:-)


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Author: MitsouR Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10144 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 9:52 AM
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I have been following this thread as a lurker and want to add in my thoughts in response to your questions, Drrick.

If you are and Advocate of Aliyah, you should be able to be explicit in why you are an advocate and what those who commit to Aliyah should expect both for themselves and for their offspring. . . . If you claim that Aliyah is the best thing that you can do as a jew and you haven't done it, does your opinion count?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by an "Advocate of Aliyah" but, for me and many others that I know in the US, we believe in and support the continued availability of Aliyah. We may not want to move to Israel now or in our lifetimes. As my father used to say, the best home on earth the Jews have ever known is the USA and I am strongly inclined to agree (at least in modern times). We recognize that nice places to live have turned south many many times historically for Jews and support Israel in part so that it can continue to be a safe haven for those of us who may at some point experience such a change where we live now.

I don't personally hold the view that Aliyah is the "best thing" one can do as a Jew. Start with being a good, kind person - that's probably the one best thing anyone of any stripe can do.

If you claim that all of those who are truly jews will do well with Aliyah but when asked "who is a jew" you get "you'll have to ask the experts and the experts won't answer the question, how can you know who is a jew. Individual opinion on these issues are appreciated especially those that don't call converts "Nuts" or convenience converts.

I don't agree that all who are truly Jews or otherwise will necessarily "do well" with Aliyah. Israel can be a tough place to live (compared to, say, the US) but it can be a great place to live if you are coming from an oppressed circumstance or if you have always wanted to be there.

Its been suggested that I consult an Orthodox Rabbi who is qualified. This suggests that none other than qualified Orthodox Rabbis count but then I get posts that suggest that Orthodox Rabbis fight over conversions for purely financial reasons.

I have never consulted an Orthodox rabbi myself for anything and wouldn't counsel you to do so. If you are interested in legal questions like emigration to Israel - talk to a lawyer who knows the issue!!! The legal issue may be inextricably tied up in Israel and other places with religion and an attorney experienced in the field can navigate that and advise you best.

In an attempt to summarize, near as I can tell. Conversions R/C are usually considered convenience conversions by most jews and are dismissed by the State of Israel. Orthodox conversions are recognized by the state of Israel but some view the conversion process as an economic versus as religious issue.

This is false. I am a Jew and I know a couple of converts - both through the Reform system and both who converted for marriage purposes many years ago. Like everyone in our community, I consider them Jews - they celebrate the holidays and volunteer at the temple and those 2 simple acts make them more Jewish in spirit and action than many/most Jewish-born friends that I have. My own mini-Shabbat celebration each week (lighting the candles, saying blessings over the wine and challah with my husband and kids, special dinner) puts me in the tiny minority of Jews that I personally know - most of whom do nothing at all for Shabbat.

I would say that most American Jews would consider a convert "Jewish" no matter what fold of Judaism they converted under.

I can't go along with Israel's limited view of which conversions should be considered valid. The Reform and Conservative branches of Judaism are well-established and well-intentioned. They have been around a long time and have institutions of higher learning where you can go and learn how to be a rabbi or cantor. The fact that the State of Israel doesn't recognize either of them or the people they may convert is a scandal, in my view. It's my opinion that the Reconstructionists are a solid group and should also have any conversions they perform considered valid by the State of Israel.

Jews view converts as either nuts or convenience converts.

It may be hard for someone either raised as a Christian or raised nonreligious in a part of the country like th Southeast where evangelical Christianity is so dominant, but Jews do not seek converts. It's one of the things I most like about Judaism - never telling anyone what to think. Never saying that our way is best and your way is heading you towards eternal damnation or somesuch. It's so respectful of others, I think.

Even more than not seeking converts, the idea behind Jewish conversion (and I am not an expert) is that only those born with a Jewish soul should be allowed to become Jews and that only such souls will make it through the rigorous conversion process. I believe the typical Orthodox process is quite rigorous and involved and is not something one would undergo unless they were really committed to Judaism. I can't say from personal knowledge or experience, but I am certain that Conservative and Reform conversions can't possibly be that involved, though I do believe that they require a fair bit of study and learning.

Aliyah- All that I can figure is that if I want to convert to judaism so that I might want to emigrate to Israel, I can expect to be called nuts,

I do believe that traditionally, a prospective convert has to be told "no" at least twice and has to make the request for conversion 3 times before a rabbi can take him/her seriously. I don't know if this is a simple tradition or if it's required somewhere. But I'm sure that in the first 2 "nos" the traditional rabbi would ask whether you were nuts and why would you want to join such a disliked people with so many rules to follow.

fought over by Orthodox Rabbis who are in it for the money;

I know nothing about this but since there is a lot of work involved, I can see why it could cost.

Scorned by jews who are jews by accident of birth should I choose to convert R/C because the conversion corresponds with a marriage ceremony,

I think if you converted as Orthodox, they would not scorn you for this. If you converted as Conservative or Reform - I seriously doubt that anyone in either group would ever scorn you. Face it - the Orthodox scorn everybody!!!!!!!!!!

and is dismissed as a "too weak" conversion by a nonpracticing jew because I didn't do Orthodox.

As noted above, I doubt this very highly.

Regards,
MitsouR

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10145 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 9:59 AM
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Face it - the Orthodox scorn everybody!!!!!!!!!!

This is categorically untrue.

Scorn:

n. Contempt or disdain felt toward a person or object considered despicable or
unworthy.
The expression of such an attitude in behavior or speech; derision.
One spoken of or treated with contempt.
v.
v. tr. To consider or treat as contemptible or unworthy.
To reject or refuse with derision.
v. intr. To express contempt; scoff.
scorner n., scornful adj., scornfully adv., scornfulness n.

-silencer

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Author: Anibaldo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10146 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 11:45 AM
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There are no opinions on the Internet. If there is no link, then it isn't true. Conversely, if there is a link, it must be true.

Do you have a link to corroborate your claim, Mark?

Abe

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Author: mapletree7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10147 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 12:46 PM
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When you say 'Should Jews support Aliyah' what do you mean? Should they support the law of return in its current form? Should they try to return to Israel themselves?

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10149 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 2:12 PM
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<<There are no opinions on the Internet. If there is no link, then it isn't true. Conversely, if there is a link, it must be true.>>

Do you have a link to corroborate your claim, Mark?


As a matter of fact, I do -

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=24509195

:-)


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10152 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 9:38 PM
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drrick,

It seems to me that you do have an exceptional knack for pestering. You glean every negative aspect possible from our discussion and discard the positive. Ultimately you show no appreciation whatsoever for the effort people have made to answer your question, assuming perhaps mistakenly that you were seeking informative answers.

This is the second time you've dragged me into a senseless debate, doing your best to test my patience. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. No more. Welcome to my P box.

Elan


You've certainly validated my personal opinion that I often ask questions that make people uncomfortable.

I would admit to only pointing out "only the the negative"
were that true, but it isn't true.
In fact, conceringing this discussion, I've tried very hard to ignore negative comments and offer praise to positive and informed comments.


What I can point out is that this community of jews did little to address a poster who suggested that anyone who converts is nuts. The rest spent too little time concerning the issue of "convenience conversions".

Can all of the posters on this thread weigh in on whehter or not they think converts to judaisim are either nuts or converting for convenience?

Those who offered their opinions concerning Aliyah, did just that- offered an opinion.
I don't have a problem with an opinion but I'd expect that opinion to be buttressed with facts.

I can offer an opinion on whether on not the sun comes up because the earth rotates versus whether or not a greek god pulls a chariot across the heavens.

Facts count more than opinions.

When pressed for the source of the posters opinions, the response was either "if you are so interested, you should look it up yourself". or, you should contact the appropriate authority.

Well, if you have an opinion, why am I the one to exert my time and energy to validate your opinion.

Why have an opinion if it is an opinion lacking facts? You could have an opinion concerning the reality of pink elephants in the middle of your drunken hallucinations.
An opinion without facts has no value.

Mind you, these are the people advocating an activity claimed to be gloriouw for all who engage in the activity but the specifics of why it is glorious, is lacking.
Laws, regulations, consequences seem important to a lot of people but when it comes to Aliyah, for some, and their children, asking the simple questions seem to generated hostility rather than answers.

I could be wrong but I've been told that opinion on this site is sufficient. Those who advocate an opinion bereft of facts, as near as I can figure shouldn't be asked for the basis of their opinion.

An opinion without facts has no value


What the heck. I can distill the issue down to something simple. Here it is:
Can anyone explicitly specify the rules that govern Aliyah?

If, yes, what are the rules; who specifies the rules?

If no, why not? If the advocates of Aliyah don't know the rules, and further can't elaborate on the rules, how can they be advocates?

When I ask questions concerning Aliyah to the advocates of Aliyah, shouldn't the burden be on the advocate? Shouldn't the advocate present evidence to support the opinion?

If one advocates a position based only on opinion bereft of facts, shouldn't one's opinion be challenged?

An opinion without facts has no value.

If someone advocates extermination of jews because they undermine the culture of a particular nation, should one ask for evidence for the claim and further shouldn't one ask for proof that extermination will solve the suggested problem of cultural degeneration?

An opinion without facts has no value

Pboxing either means that the person deserves it or the "Pboxer" doesn't wan't to address the questions the questions that might challenge information that contradicts one's self identity.

An opinion without facts has no value

You don't like the questions I ask; you don't like the answers I give. You don't like me.

You resort to "pbox".

Strip me naked of my identity in this place. Deny me rights. Point out that I don't belong here, treat anyone who agrees with me in kind. Put us all in the same place where your disdain for our expression of reality so offends you that you wish to exterminate our ability to ever make any claim to humanity that differs or offends your sensibilities.
Exert your conviction and belief that anyone who disagrees deserves your concerted effort to exterminate something that offends and challenges what you know to be true.

An opinion without facts has no value

Wellcome to the internet holocaust created by fascists who hate without thought, judge without thought.

Believe without reason.

An opinion without facts has no value.


Fascism survives in the minds of the public by refusing to indulge ambiguity, claiming the moral highground and denying, shutting down or destroying its detractors.

An opinion without facts has no value

You must be proud.





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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10153 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 10:43 PM
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oy vey drrick. Internet fascist? lol. a touch melodramatic I think.

I don't know, using the word fascist in such a cavalier manner on a Jewish board. It's a free country, but our collective experience with fascism is a little different than the experience of arguing with a bunch of strangers on an internet chatroom. Fascism killed a bunch of my relatives 65 years ago. No one on this board has done that. you should watch your mouth a little better.


are all your relationships this difficult?

I think I know the answer.


Listen, quite a few people on this board took the time to write you lengthy posts about the situation with your sister, and you seemed to be appreciative. but now you are getting quarrelsome again and don't seem to appreciate the time they gave to you and are somehow annoyed that you can't get answers in your own black and white universe.

perhaps you should seek another outlet for your questions. you had a cross section of around 10 Jews here giving you feedback, some observant Jews, some secular Jews, all kinds of Jews. If you can't get any value from that, good luck.

and we didn't even charge you for that time ...


Dov




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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10154 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 10:50 PM
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The fact that the State of Israel doesn't recognize either of them or the people they may convert is a scandal, in my view.

We agree on this.

"Jews view converts as either nuts or convenience converts."

It may be hard for someone either raised as a Christian or raised nonreligious in a part of the country like th Southeast where evangelical Christianity is so dominant, but Jews do not seek converts. It's one of the things I most like about Judaism - never telling anyone what to think. Never saying that our way is best and your way is heading you towards eternal damnation or somesuch. It's so respectful of others, I think.

Was sorta of raised Catholic but that didn't work all that well becuase I became a skeptic at about the age nine- and yes, I have the documents and journals to validate this. Your sort of "stereotype" "someone either raised as a Christian or raised nonreligious in a part of the country like th Southeast where evangelical Christianity is so dominant" doesen't fit me, my geography, or my upbringing and worse, doesn't address my evaluation or access to alternate views.

Where did you get the notion that I find the concept of not being aggesive with conversion hard to deal with? I've always thought that this was one of the more appealing aspects of judaism.

Is there any indication that I might have suggested otherwise?

I don't live in the south. I wasn't raised in the south. I don't have a background where aggresive attempts at conversion to any faith had any part of my upbringing.
In fact, any of the above notions are quite foreign to any part of any facet of my life.

In fact, as previously indicated, I developed a nonrelious outlook on life very early. No one seriously challenged that outlook except for one teacher.

And this is a major "hoot". That teacher, took me aside during a specific period of time in Israel's history- six day war, and asked if I needed time off for immediate family and close relatives.
At that time, my knowledge of judaism was bare bones at best but I appreciated the effort. I didn't speak to authorities and suggest that she was out of line with her presumption or that she was attempting to pressure me from a religious standpoint.

I recognized her sincerity. I thanked her for her concern. I told her that the only thing that I knew that might be jewish about me was my last name.
That said I'm not jewish.
Sincerity counts where I live. I never told a single person in the midst of a proufoundly Christian community because I knew instinctively that it would have been used for ill. I never told another classmate for the same reason.
It wasn't even anything like a "special secret". It just seemed so obvious that not saying anything about it to anyone was the right thing to do.
I didn't need books or rules or threats from the heavens. I recognized one person's courage and knew that protecting that courage was more moral than anything I knew.


I can tell it now because no one knows the names and she, at least, in memory, should be acknowledged for taking a risk to support what might have been a jew lost in the wilderness.

Not being a jew, I admired her courage nonetheless.


You don't mind me saying that jews who convert to Christianity are making a rational and soul protecting decision and that anyone who is a jew who doesn't convert to Christianity is not only nuts but is inviting eternal damnation upon their souls do you?


Even more than not seeking converts, the idea behind Jewish conversion (and I am not an expert) is that only those born with a Jewish soul should be allowed to become Jews and that only such souls will make it through the rigorous conversion process. I believe the typical Orthodox process is quite rigorous and involved and is not something one would undergo unless they were really committed to Judaism. I can't say from personal knowledge or experience, but I am certain that Conservative and Reform conversions can't possibly be that involved, though I do believe that they require a fair bit of study and learning.

Comparatively speaking though, do you believe that just being born a jew,bereft of training, knowledge practice, and exerting no effort to be a jew makes you more a jew than a R/C convert?

I do believe that traditionally, a prospective convert has to be told "no" at least twice and has to make the request for conversion 3 times before a rabbi can take him/her seriously. I don't know if this is a simple tradition or if it's required somewhere. But I'm sure that in the first 2 "nos" the traditional rabbi would ask whether you were nuts and why would you want to join such a disliked people with so many rules to follow.

The above is confusing. I know what you believe but I don't know why you believe what you believe. I'm not sure where the issue of being "nuts" comes into the discussion. I must have not been paying attention. I've never considered the jews a "disliked people".

I've admired many people who happen to be jewish.

Should I check first whether or not a person is jewish before I decide whether or not I like them?

As to the rules- everyone has rules.


Lot's of opinion on these issues.

The general consensus seems to be that lots of jews don't like me asking difficult questions.


Buddhists seem to do a much better job with difficult questions concerning doctrine.

I watched an interview with the Dalai Lama. One questioner ask him how Buddhism could survive if reincarnation was proven untrue.

Whithout skipping a beat, the DL responded "Well then, in the face of irrefutable evidence, Buddhism would have to change to adapt to the facts.


Do jews like being disliked?

Are they bothered when someone who is supposed to dislike them doesn't?

Are there categories of jews more liked or disliked than others?

So confused.





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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10155 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 11:27 PM
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When you say 'Should Jews support Aliyah' what do you mean? Should they support the law of return in its current form? Should they try to return to Israel themselves


You're squeezing all of my neurons by challenging me for asking ambiguous questions.

Rats, someone's trying to keep me honest.

My answer is, as best as I can articulate it, is that if a jew claims support for Aliyah, they shouldn't treat that claim as something so simple as a slogan as lame as " I support Aliyah".

In the jewish community, the majority, at least, it seems to me, have positive associations with this slogan. When pressed on what they actually mean by claiming that they support Aliyah, the only generally agreed upon answer seems to be that jews support more jews emmigrating to Israel.
That seems to be the "feel good" message. If pressed as to what defines a jew and how those who perceive themselves to be jews are treated as to Aliyah, things start getting a little prickly.

It seems that lots support jews emmigrating to Israel but aren't all that concerned as to how Israel treats the emmigrating jews when they get there.

All jews who are able should emmigrate is the message. Who is a jew is sticky.

How those who engage in Aliyah are treated depends on who decides their status as jews.

The rules aren't either clear or well defined.

It just seems that the jewish community and the State of Israel could make these issues clearer before they aggessively encourage jews to engage in a noble activity who's outcome may require an emmigre to accept being treated less than nobly by the very State, religion and community that encouraged their emmigration

To ask that one engage a Rabbi, a lawyer or whomever to ensure that the claims of the benefits of Aliyah without the benefit of specific written laws seems a sad commentary on Aliyah, the State of Israel and the jewish community.


This will probably be viewed as a criticism when in truth, it is an observation of the facts.


I'm sorry if I offend for asking questions for which I can find no clear answers.

That Israel is having a very difficult time with the world community at this point in time makes asking these questions not only all the more difficult but all the more certain that rather than answers or well thought opinions, I am apt to garner nothing more than emnity.

Not my intent. I really am just an honest searcher. Those who pbox me for my timerity may someday realize that just because my questions seem offensive doesn't preclude the possibility that they nonetheless search for edification.

I've never pboxed anyone because I suspect that the things that most offend us, provoke us to ask the hardest questions.


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Author: MitsouR Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10156 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 11:42 PM
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I already regret doing this but here goes.

I thought my post would be sort of a moderate voice on here and you would be glad that someone agrees with you that R and C conversions should "count" with Israel and with everyone.

You seem to think that I was being hostile which was surely not my intent and I don't think a re-read of my message will reflect any hostility towards you. I don't understand the tone of your reply.

I said It may,/b> be hard for someone either raised as a Christian or raised nonreligious in a part of the country like th Southeast . . .

Could I have qualified this any more? I don't know you from Adam though I have seen you post on the Atheists board, which I like to read. I think many people in this country who have been necessarily exposed to the evangelical perspective (nearly all of us if you've even happened to pause on a Christian channel on TV) find it unusual that Jews don't seek converts.

For whatever reason, you actually do seem to be falling into this category (those who find it odd). It's not only that Jews don't SEEK converts, they actually discourage conversions as a way to keep out those who aren't serious. Asking "are you nuts?" is not literal. Surely 99 out of 100 Orthodox rabbis a person spoke to about conversion would never use those exact words or perhaps even that sort of question. It has nothing to do with mental health. Jews find it hard to believe that many others would be interested in joining them/us and becoming Jews.

You don't mind me saying that jews who convert to Christianity are making a rational and soul protecting decision and that anyone who is a jew who doesn't convert to Christianity is not only nuts but is inviting eternal damnation upon their souls do you?

Well - I don't think you believe this after reading your posts on the Atheist board. I would in fact find it highly offensive. It's different for one small group to tell others "do whatever you want - there's no pressure to join me over here" and for another giant group to arrogantly say to everyone "fail to join me at your eternal peril." You can't see the difference?

I must have not been paying attention. I've never considered the jews a "disliked people".
I've admired many people who happen to be jewish.
Should I check first whether or not a person is jewish before I decide whether or not I like them?


What? You don't think there are MILLIONS of people on this planet who actively hate Jews today??? Can you possibly be forgetting the COUNTLESS examples of hatred of Jews in recent history? In Europe (when they had lots of Jews) - Pogroms for centuries, the Holocaust??!! Even in our own country - you can Google and see where the country's top universities had quotas in place for decades to try to keep their Jewish populations down. The KKK? Not lovers of Jews. Nation of Islam? Ditto. Skinheads? Historically in this country many major corporations (prior to the '50s/'60s) were hard places for Jews to get hired or to advance. Travel around the country and see how many cities still have a "Jewish Hospital" - now only nominally that but originally the only place Jewish people could go and be admitted for treatment. Heck, I don't think I am welcome in any of the Arab countries and probably several other Muslim countries if they figure out that I am Jewish. Today. Then there's David Duke, Pat Buchanan and, heck, Mel Gibson!!!! I had a neighbor in an apartment in Austin tell me that she hated Los Angeles "because there were so many Jews everywhere." In college I was in a Jewish sorority and some of the guys in the very horrible frat nearby would call out to us "Hey Jew B-tch" and lovelies like that when they were outside and we walked by. I experienced the same from the "townies" in the town on Cape Cod where I went to a Jewish camp.

I do think that there are a lot of people out there who hate Jews and know nearly nothing about Jews and fear the unknown. If you could become an African American (another similarly disliked group) through a conversion process, you don't think they'd ask whether you were nuts for wanting to do it?

I'm not tremendously religious and am married to a nonreligious non-Jew - FWIW. I haven't asked him to convert or even to consider it, really. I would have a hard time giving him reasons why he ought to do it other than family unity and, luckily, we have enough of that as it is. We don't celebrate the Christian holidays and do celebrate the Jewish ones and DH is happy with it.

Do jews like being disliked?
Are they bothered when someone who is supposed to dislike them doesn't?
Are there categories of jews more liked or disliked than others?


Answering for myself - I don't like being disliked for any reason, not for being Jewish or any other reason in or out of my control. Who is supposed to dislike me? I don't ever expect any individual to dislike me for being Jewish but history (even my own) and basic statistics suggest that I will run into some people who dislike or even hate Jews - and I may know it or not know it. Categories? Who knows? I think those who categorically hate/fear Jews often don't know any or many and would dislike all about equally.

Are you being serious in your response to me?
MitsouR


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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10157 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 11:49 PM
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I don't know, using the word fascist in such a cavalier manner on a Jewish board. It's a free country, but our collective experience with fascism is a little different than the experience of arguing with a bunch of strangers on an internet chatroom. Fascism killed a bunch of my relatives 65 years ago. No one on this board has done that. you should watch your mouth a little better.

trivializing any attempt to stifle speach because it offends, is culturally disagreeable or doesn't really seem to have any obvious consequences is as damaging to humanity whereever it rears its ugly head.
That those who engage in the behavior or deny its existence doesn't change the reality.

You aren't the only one who's lost family to the fascists. My Spanish heritage and my Itallian spouse can both speak to loss.

Killing an idea, killing a right to speak or express oneself is the same as killing an individual.

are all your relationships this difficult?


Nope, just had dinner with one of my best friends. He's an octagenarian polish emigre, engineer, architect, multiple patent holder who escaped the Gulags, to join the Polish underground, to later be recruited by Brittish intelligence to help them Chase Rommel across North Africa...

We argue everything endlessly but what we both seem to have a deep abiding respect for is an obsession to not just have an opinion but to have an opinion who's foundation is truth firmly anchored to facts.

Opinion alone is fluff and should be treated as such.


There's nothing cavalier about that.

You should strive to protect the freedom to speak to things that offend a little better.



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Author: MitsouR Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10158 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/25/2006 11:49 PM
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Sorry for all the bolding in the earlier message.

I think my earlier answer re: "Aliyah" is closer to what most American Jews mean by supporting it than what you suggest (more Jews immigrating to Israel is the best thing).

I said :

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by an "Advocate of Aliyah" but, for me and many others that I know in the US, we believe in and support the continued availability of Aliyah. We may not want to move to Israel now or in our lifetimes. As my father used to say, the best home on earth the Jews have ever known is the USA and I am strongly inclined to agree (at least in modern times). We recognize that nice places to live have turned south many many times historically for Jews and support Israel in part so that it can continue to be a safe haven for those of us who may at some point experience such a change where we live now.

Supporting the continued availability of Israel as a place for Jews encountering trouble just for being Jews in their home countries is what I see as supporting Aliyah. Immigration to Israel is available to all Jews, whether they are formally "in trouble" in their home country or not and I support that too because some Jewish people would really like to live in a majority-Jewish country and there is no other.



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Author: drrickdvm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 10159 of 22709
Subject: Re: Aliyah continues Date: 8/26/2006 12:21 AM
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Was I serious in my response to you? Yes.

Did I feel the need to "bold" my response as if I didn't think you'd get my points? No.

That said, your response seemed so heartfelt and suggestive that you had truly be unfairly insulted that I went back to reread what you had written with the benefit of your response.

How could I have been so blind? You were really trying to reach out, give your perspcective and offer examples to support how hard it is to be a jew and a minority.

I misread your points entirely and felt labeled as a redneck Christian southerner.

I way so blew this. As bad as anything I have ever blown.

Seems that the southern christian thing is like waving flag to a bull as far as I'm concerned. Once somebody raises that red cape, my brain goes straight to "gore the bustad"



There is no amount of apology I can offer that can change this but I apologize nonetheless.

Also, believe it or not, I really have a hard time wrapping my brain around discrimination.

I always figure that if we can all breathe the same atmosphere, there shouldn't be a lot of reasons for hostility.

This is why I don't capitalize religious or ethnic or national designations if I'm paying attention. It just seems to me that doing it gives way too much importance to the topic.

I'd like conversations concerning disagreement to start out with "Two hominids from earth..."


Again, I can't apologize enough. I will retake remedial "reading for rhetoric", and "English as an actual language and a method of communication"

Don't know what else to say.





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