Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (40) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 44849  
Subject: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 12:06 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 32
To my dear friend of many years,

I know that it takes two to tango, as Dad always used to tell us. However, things are not getting better and I am becoming concerned for your safety and the well-being of your kids. It is bad enough that your wife has been a mental and at times physical abuser for most of this year, but I think the most recent episode should have been a wake-up call. She grabbed you by the throat and slammed your head against the wall hard enough that you still have a headache days later. You called the police and they arrested her. The arresting officer told you bluntly that he was concerned with where this was going and recommended that you take the emergency restraining order he offered you (you declined). Someone bailed her out the same day with ten grand that she charged to your joint credit card. Yet you continue to profess that things will *now* be OK and get worked out.

Please, please wake up and save yourself. If you won't do that, at least save your small children. This is going nowhere good. She keeps escalating and you keep blaming yourself and making apologies for her. Its not going to change, and you need to get out of there and take the kids with you before she permanently hurts or kills you. Do something before your children are permanently scarred (if they are not already). Yep, you will probably go bankrupt in the process. So what? Your friends and family would be thrilled to help you. But you need to decide to save yourself and your kids because we cannot make the decision for you. I'd happily show up unannounced and hustle you and the kids to an "undisclosed location" (enthusiastically tasering your wife if she got in the way), but I know you wouldn't go.

Please come to your senses, my friend. I would hate to see you seriously hurt or killed by this lunatic and I mourn what she has done to your personality.

- brewer12345
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ChiliChild Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39558 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 12:32 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
You speak the truth, Brewer.

I, too, am worried sick for a friend married to someone I do not trust. I've never seen evidence of violence, but he has screamed, yelled and berated her in front of us. He is a manipulative, cheating liar, yet she stays with him. It sickens me, worries me and has begun to affect our friendship because it is becoming more and more difficult to even be in his presence and she tries to force it.

It actually makes me think she's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. He is nasty and manipulative for an extended period and then suddenly does something minimally nice. She is so appreciative, all is well for the time being.

Her other friends despise him, as well, and have little or nothing to do with him, but she really tries to force him on us. He treats her son like garbage and calls him names; even went so far as to tell her she should disinherit him. I commented that if she did the same to his daughter he'd go off the rails and she agreed.

She was an only child and coddled all her life, so it's likely she is afraid to leave someone who pays the bills and takes care of things despite being a serious @*shole. She is his fifth wife and is the one with the inherited millions; he is the one who controls those millions. I strongly suspect he is moving it offshore. I worry for her safety.

I also think he may read TMF. If so, I've got your number and you make me sick.

Chili

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39559 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 1:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 8
Unfortunately, you can't save an abuse victim against their will. I know this from being on the wrong end of it.

You can, however, help them to see that their self-worth is greater than they believe it to be. One of the most common acts of these types of abusers is to convince the victim that nobody else would love them as much as the abuser does, because the victim is so worthless. It keeps the victim from wanting to leave "the one person who will ever really love them". Until this belief changes, the victim won't usually leave.

How do you accomplish this? I have no idea. My own path was to sleep with enough other guys who thought I was wonderful, until I started to believe it. I don't actually recommend this method for several reasons. One of the most obvious being that the abuser - if they find out or even suspect - will destroy the victim for it. But until the victim believes in their heart that they are lovable, and they don't have to be a doormat to be loved, they won't ever leave.


Frydaze1

Print the post Back To Top
Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39560 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 2:11 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 10
Her other friends despise him, as well, and have little or nothing to do with him, but she really tries to force him on us.

Chili, is it possible she "forces" him on you because he refuses to let her see her friends without him? Or possibly that she trusts that he won't get physically abusive if either you or her other friends are around?

Whatever you do, don't walk away from your friendship with her. One of the power moves that abusers use is to separate the abused spouse from all possible forms of support, including financial, family, friends, and anyone else who might have an inkling of what's really going on. He might be abrasive towards you with the explicit purpose of trying to push you away. Then he can tell his wife "See? I'm the only one who will stick by you."

LWW

Print the post Back To Top
Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39561 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 2:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
You called the police and they arrested her. The arresting officer told you bluntly that he was concerned with where this was going and recommended that you take the emergency restraining order he offered you (you declined).

Is it possible that the arresting officer will notify CPS (or whoever handles these cases) to have a well-check done on the children? I know that here, if an officer suspects abuse, he or she is required by law to contact CPS and have the incident checked out.

LWW

Print the post Back To Top
Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39562 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 2:19 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Is it possible that the arresting officer will notify CPS (or whoever handles these cases) to have a well-check done on the children? I know that here, if an officer suspects abuse, he or she is required by law to contact CPS and have the incident checked out.

LWW
*************************

I would imagine it is possible. The kids were at school/daycare when this went down. I did mention to him that there is a possibility that he could have the kids removed from the house the more this goes on. Didn't seem to get through.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Myownigloo Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39563 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 2:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Or possibly that she trusts that he won't get physically abusive if either you or her other friends are around?

This.

MOI
<knows>

Print the post Back To Top
Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39564 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 2:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I would imagine it is possible. The kids were at school/daycare when this went down. I did mention to him that there is a possibility that he could have the kids removed from the house the more this goes on. Didn't seem to get through.

If she leaves a lasting mark on the kid in daycare and the daycare provider sees it, there's a better than average chance that there will be an investigation (daycares will blow the whistle in a heartbeat to avoid being accused themselves).

Sad thing is, if your friend continues to allow this sort of thing to happen, the kids could be removed from the home and not allowed to live with either parent.

We see that sort of stuff here all the time.

LWW

Print the post Back To Top
Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39565 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 2:31 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
If she leaves a lasting mark on the kid in daycare and the daycare provider sees it, there's a better than average chance that there will be an investigation (daycares will blow the whistle in a heartbeat to avoid being accused themselves).

Sad thing is, if your friend continues to allow this sort of thing to happen, the kids could be removed from the home and not allowed to live with either parent.

We see that sort of stuff here all the time.

LWW
********************

AFAIK, he is the only one she beats the crap out of. She is a sh!tty mother in general, but I have heard nothing that would make me think she hits the kids.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ChiliChild Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39566 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 2:40 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Whatever you do, don't walk away from your friendship with her. One of the power moves that abusers use is to separate the abused spouse from all possible forms of support, including financial, family, friends, and anyone else who might have an inkling of what's really going on. He might be abrasive towards you with the explicit purpose of trying to push you away. Then he can tell his wife "See? I'm the only one who will stick by you."

This is why I'm hanging in there. He does try to separate her from others. We have known each other since 1st grade and I think she knows she can trust me. She has another friend in the area and he has been unsuccessful stopping her from seeing either of us without him. I just hate going out to dinner as a foursome. And I'm sure he feels the same way about me. I simply do not put up with his BS and never hesitate to call him on it. There have been a couple of scenes where he and I have gotten into it. By the look on her face, I actually think she appreciates it.

Chili

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ThyPeace Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39569 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 4:32 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 9
You can, however, help them to see that their self-worth is greater than they believe it to be. One of the most common acts of these types of abusers is to convince the victim that nobody else would love them as much as the abuser does, because the victim is so worthless. It keeps the victim from wanting to leave "the one person who will ever really love them". Until this belief changes, the victim won't usually leave.

How do you accomplish this? I have no idea.


I happen to have studied abuse, a little, in the course of learning a lot about marriages and how they come undone. I never understood abuse until I started studying Steven Stosny's work on domestic violence. (See note.) His books range between marginal and decent -- he really needs a good editor -- but his research appears to me to be completely sound. A short summary will not really do much good, but the above really gets to the heart of it.

Both people in an abusive relationship usually have absolutely awful self-worth. The abuser almost always thinks that the victim is actually at fault, because the victim has made the abuser feel so bad about him or herself. The abuser has hard-wired (I should probably say firm-wired, as they can be changed) neural connections between feelings of humiliation/hurt/disappointment straight to violent change. Re-training the neural pathways to take a different course is possible, but requires weeks and months of practice. (For more information on those practices, which I recommend for every person who has ever lost their temper, see http://compassionpower.com/Healing.php. Best $49 you will ever spend.)

For the partner of an abuser, the dance is much more complicated. As FryDaze says, there is nothing worse -- and harder to understand from the outside -- than believing that you deserve your own suffering, no matter how bad it is. When I've encountered that, I've followed Stosny's advice and focused on the relationship itself. The victim, essentially without fail, still loves the abuser. Often hates them too, but those go together in many relationships. So when you talk to the victim, you have to acknowledge the love and value it even if you don't understand it. And then you talk to the person about the most compassionate decision that they can possibly make, for the sake of the abuser. To read more about this aspect of abuse, Stosny does have a decent book: Love without Hurt. http://www.amazon.com/Love-Without-Hurt-Relationship-Compass...

To do that, you have to understand that the abuser lives with extreme amounts of guilt and self-hatred for the things they do. The only way to stop the suffering of the abuser (yes, they are suffering -- I'm not saying they suffer as much, only that they do suffer) is to stop the abuse. Victims will often take a stand to protect their kids and their abusers when they will not protect themselves. It has to do with our biological reactions to sabre-tooth tigers, apparently...

So if you can't convince the victim to protect himself or herself, sometimes you can work with them through love, to protect the abuser from further abuse that worsens the self-hatred and guilt. It is a terrible and frightening journey for everyone involved. But sometimes it actually works.



ThyPeace, remembers the sad, hard days of talking to people in these situations all too well. It was one of the most heart-opening experiences I have ever had. And I hope every one of them is in much better places now.


Note: All of the above assumes the abuser is capable of compassion. Sociopaths and psychopaths are not capable of compassion. Because of that, they're unable to learn to change their behaviors using compassion. For them, there is generally a much more rational cost-benefit analysis that has to be done, and only with limited success.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39570 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 5:29 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
There have been a couple of scenes where he and I have gotten into it. By the look on her face, I actually think she appreciates it.

Perhaps you are saying what she wants him to hear, but is afraid to say herself? Maybe she hopes that if it comes from someone else, he'll listen?

(((Chili)))

It's not easy to be the friend of an abuse victim. I applaud you for hanging in there for her!

LWW

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39572 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 5:45 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
The victim, essentially without fail, still loves the abuser. Often hates them too, but those go together in many relationships. So when you talk to the victim, you have to acknowledge the love and value it even if you don't understand it.

True. (Or at least they love the idealized partner they've created in their mind, that they think the abuser can be when he tries.) It's nearly impossible to reach the victim by simply pointing out that you hate the abuser. That just triggers defense mechanisms.


To do that, you have to understand that the abuser lives with extreme amounts of guilt and self-hatred for the things they do. The only way to stop the suffering of the abuser (yes, they are suffering -- I'm not saying they suffer as much, only that they do suffer) is to stop the abuse. Victims will often take a stand to protect their kids and their abusers when they will not protect themselves. It has to do with our biological reactions to sabre-tooth tigers, apparently...

So if you can't convince the victim to protect himself or herself, sometimes you can work with them through love, to protect the abuser from further abuse that worsens the self-hatred and guilt. It is a terrible and frightening journey for everyone involved. But sometimes it actually works.


That's a pretty delicate dance. You need to be careful not to reinforce the abusers assertion that the victim is responsible for being abused. Or that if they would just be a better person, the abuser wouldn't have to hit them.


The abuser has hard-wired (I should probably say firm-wired, as they can be changed) neural connections between feelings of humiliation/hurt/disappointment straight to violent change.

That. xDH was terribly insecure. He's with someone else now and they're both very happy. And I'm fairly certain he isn't abusive. People can change. But generally the victim can't cause that change, and they need to know that. That's the hardest thing to accept, as the victim: You can't change it. You can't fix it. You aren't responsible for it.


That's awesome that you've studied it. I wish, being both familiar with the situation from the inside *and* very interested in psychology, that I could understand the victim mindset well enough to know how to reach another victim in a language they'd understand. I wish I could help others to walk away faster than I did. Instead all I can do is acknowledge that this is yet another situation I can't fix. But that is, in itself, a big step for me.


Frydaze1

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39573 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 5:51 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
I, too, am worried sick for a friend married to someone I do not trust. I've never seen evidence of violence, but he has screamed, yelled and berated her in front of us. He is a manipulative, cheating liar, yet she stays with him.

Like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Woolybooger1 Big red star, 1000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39574 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 6:05 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 9
brewer,

So Sad................ Do what you can and then if necessary, leave knowing you were a good friend and willing to go that extra mile if they were willing.

Being an Ob/Gyn I usually see the opposite side of this situation, but it runs about 80% Men abusers to 20% Women abusers. Genetics, imprinting, hormonal?????.............. we still don't know.

The last one that comes to mind was a pregnant gal we took care of about 7 years ago. Kept coming in with a black eye, a broken pinky finger, even a chipped tooth. Kept going back for more. Well not really going back, just couldn't break free for whatever reasons. We spent literally hours with her trying to get her to "run away" to a new city, to relatives in another state........ anything to "start fresh". Didn't happen.

She delivered and was dead a few months later. The guy was ultimately arrested, but never really knew how that all panned out. I moved to a new city and don't know how it all ended.............. except a pretty smiling gal was dead and it could have all been avoided.

I often deal with suicide situations and know one immutable truth.....

(all great thoughts and fabulous "thumbs up" to tenworlds)

If someone really wants to end things...............

If they don't see any way out.................

If they are so fearful they simply cannot cut and run........

Then bad things will happen and there is little we as best friends, loved ones or even companions can do about it. All we can do is be there for them if that glimmer of hope...... or that small possiblity of a different future sneaks through the overwhelming cloud of darkness that engulfs them.... and we can be that comforting and reasurring teamate to blaze a new path of how to life their lives........

Proud of you for posting and for sticking your neck out there.

Please be careful even as you are bold.....................

Wooly.............

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ThyPeace Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39576 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 8:34 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
So if you can't convince the victim to protect himself or herself, sometimes you can work with them through love, to protect the abuser from further abuse that worsens the self-hatred and guilt. It is a terrible and frightening journey for everyone involved. But sometimes it actually works.

That's a pretty delicate dance. You need to be careful not to reinforce the abusers assertion that the victim is responsible for being abused. Or that if they would just be a better person, the abuser wouldn't have to hit them.

You're so right about that. I should have said two more things. The first is that if you can get the victim to get professional help, that is always by far the very best option.

The second is that when you talk to someone about it, you have to convince them that the thing that must do out of love is to remove themselves from the abuser's reach so that the abuser can no longer do harm -- that this is the greatest act of love that they can give the abuser, and that it must stand until the abuser can get treatment. All to prevent further harm, all out of love.

In the years that I studied this stuff, I learned about love, lust, attachment, addiction, abuse, marriage, divorce, and a lot about people in general. The very best part was learning a little about compassion, which has been truly remarkable. Compassion is so powerful, and so necessary, and so very hard to do, and yet so amazing. It brought me some peace in the middle of complete chaos, and allowed me to help people whom I otherwise would not have been able to help.

ThyPeace, has much more to learn about being compassionate. It's a lifelong study.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ChiliChild Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39577 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/10/2012 8:41 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist


Yes. Very much like that.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39579 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 5:22 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Yes. Very much like that.

The thing to understand is that psychopaths aren't really human.
There's no "connection" you can make with a psychopath. The mutual bond of essential human-ness you share with another human being doesn't exist with a psychopath, and can't. Another way of putting it is that a psychopath doesn't have a soul.
Psychopaths tend to be extremely good at creating illusions, though, at creating a mask of sanity and humanity.

If your friend is with a psychopath, he will end up damaging or destroying her, financially and psychologically.

There are no happy endings to relationships with psychopaths, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, she can do to improve the situation other than leave him.
I'm sure your friend is being driven mad by his pointlessly destructive behavior, and hopes that it will stop. But it won't, and it can't.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: InconclusiveFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39581 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 5:30 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"yet she stays with him."

One of the great mysteries of life. One person verbally/mentally/physically/whatever abuses the other in a relationship, and the abused stays in it. WTF??

Print the post Back To Top
Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39582 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 5:51 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
She was an only child and coddled all her life, so it's likely she is afraid to leave someone who pays the bills and takes care of things despite being a serious @*shole. She is his fifth wife and is the one with the inherited millions; he is the one who controls those millions. I strongly suspect he is moving it offshore. I worry for her safety.

She will end up bankrupt and possibly even dead.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: bdluckyshot Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39583 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 7:45 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
She will end up bankrupt and possibly even dead.


We all end up dead.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: PipneyJane Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39585 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 8:04 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
I often deal with suicide situations and know one immutable truth.....

(all great thoughts and fabulous "thumbs up" to tenworlds)

If someone really wants to end things...............

If they don't see any way out.................

If they are so fearful they simply cannot cut and run........

Then bad things will happen and there is little we as best friends, loved ones or even companions can do about it. All we can do is be there for them if that glimmer of hope...... or that small possiblity of a different future sneaks through the overwhelming cloud of darkness that engulfs them.... and we can be that comforting and reasurring teamate to blaze a new path of how to life their lives........

Proud of you for posting and for sticking your neck out there.

Please be careful even as you are bold.....................

Wooly.............


Wooly,

I wish, with all my heart, that you were my doctor. You are very, very compassionate.

- Pam (Alternatively, I wish you were my colleague and I was still nursing.)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: tconi Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39588 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 9:11 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
http://boards.fool.com/from-you-posts-you-seem-like-an-intel...


OK- we (s a group) are really out of conversations


peace & rehashing
t

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ChiliChild Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39589 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 9:45 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I'm sure your friend is being driven mad by his pointlessly destructive behavior, and hopes that it will stop. But it won't, and it can't.

"Driven mad" is a good descriptive phrase.

Thanks for the previous link, too.

Chili

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Hetepheres Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39592 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 10:57 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
I've been reading "The Sociopath Next Door". The Author states that about 1 in 25 people we meet are sociopaths, and not every sociopath is an ax murderer.

It's been a somewhat interesting read..


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FCJXTC/ref=docs-os-doi_...

Hetep

Print the post Back To Top
Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39593 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 11:08 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I've been reading "The Sociopath Next Door". The Author states that about 1 in 25 people we meet are sociopaths, and not every sociopath is an ax murderer.

I think he's overstating it significantly.
He most likely would charactarize Steve Jobs as a sociopath.
Steve Jobs was clearly not normal, and could be cruel, but nevertheless significantly apart from the "classic" psychopath/sociopath.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: LCKitten Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39594 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 11:44 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Steve Jobs was clearly not normal, and could be cruel, but nevertheless significantly apart from the "classic" psychopath/sociopath.

Is there a spectrum to psycopathy like there is with autism? Could someone be a "little bit" of a psycopath?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sissylue Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39595 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 12:30 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Could someone be a "little bit" of a psycopath?

from my understanding - no. the behaviour of a person can look a lot like "psychopath" but if I paid the right kind of attention in my seminars psychopath (I'm thinking reactive attachment disorder) involves actual brain chemistry inability to form emotional attachments and feel empathy blah blah blah. And most psychopaths don't become serial killers - they don't become criminals at all. I think they might become CEO's of large corporations. A little snark but not that far off the mark. An intelligent psychopath realizes that there isn't much percentage in being a serial killer but that life is good as the head of a thriving business. So unless Steve Jobs lacked the ability to form ANY emotional attachment or feel any empathy he doesn't qualify.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cabinsmama Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39596 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 12:48 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
There's probably a range of psychopathic/sociopathic traits or characteristics. There's around 20 characteristics, I think, and some people are going to have more, some less.

It's a little trickier to pin down as it's not a real diagnosis, it's more of a descriptor, I think. And while not a "spectrum", some are going to have additional problems that can make them more dangerous than others. If they also have depressive disorder, that's going to look different than if they also have poor impulse control and/or aggression issues.

Some can make you miserable, some can kill you. I'm sure there's factors to predict who will do which to a certain extent, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.

cm

Print the post Back To Top
Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39597 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 1:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
So unless Steve Jobs lacked the ability to form ANY emotional attachment or feel any empathy he doesn't qualify.

I had always heard that it was sociopaths who completely lacked the ability to make emotional connections, and that psycopaths were the ones who could manipulate those emotions in others.

Except that an intelligent psychopath would recognize the value of having the appropriate accessories to promote him/herself into a position of power (right car, right neighborhood, right spouse). For instance, the "right wife" for social settings might be necessary to get invited to the social gatherings that involve the move up the corporate ladder. As such, said psycopath might marry the right woman in order to further his own career and might have children in order to carry on his own sense of self-worth, not necessarily because he fels the need to have children out of love. Think about all the younger women who marry older executives, but then complain that the person they married seems "cold and distant". The psycopath knows what society expects and then uses that to acheive his own ends.

Ted Bundy was an excellent example. Someone who could be charming on one hand, could produce the illusion of caring (he worked for a suicide prevention hotline at one point), and yet could kill a woman without any remorse at all.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sissylue Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39601 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 2:37 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I had always heard that it was sociopaths who completely lacked the ability to make emotional connections

Could be. I'm basing my info on seminars taken almost 6 years ago; I do remember that the topic was psychopaths, not sociopaths, that the doctors/shrinks/cops discussed; that a good deal of the course concerned the brain chemistry that was associated with the total lack of emotional connection and a total lack of empathy that defined a psychopath; and the new (and scary) research showed that a non-psychopath could be turned into a psychopath (at least brain chemistry wise) by certain drugs. You know - now that I think about it - I don't think they ever really used the term sociopath.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Windowseat Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39603 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 3:12 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
Awhile back I read "Getting it through My Thick Skull" by Mary Jo Buttafuoco. (That was the case where a high school kid on Long Island was having an affair with the guy who fixed her car, and she decided to eliminate the guy's wife. The Amy Fisher story.) The thick skull refers in part to the actual thickness of her skull, which is the only reason she lived, and part to her gradual realization that she was overlooking some really serious facts.

Originally Mary Jo stayed with her husband. Part of it was the traditional Catholic upbringing, and part was his apology and his lies.

But as time passed and problems continued, she finally pulled away and made a new life for herself. One night she was watching a show where her ex was explaining something that was not actually explainable, and she shook her head and said to her son, "he just doesn't get it, does he?" And her son said, "well, of course not, Mom. He's a sociopath."

She spent most of the night pulling up everything she could find about sociopathy on the internet, and finally realized that she had spent a good chunk of her life married to someone who was simply not normal. But it was very liberating, because it became clear that she was not the cause. There wasn't anything she could do that would change him.

So there might be degrees of sociopathy, depending, I think, on the intelligence or ability of the person who has it. Joey Buttafuoco was never quite that bright or charismatic, or he might have created even more havoc.

Nancy
and Amy Fisher wasn't all that much better.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: AdvocatusDiaboli Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39606 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 3:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Is there a spectrum to psycopathy like there is with autism? Could someone be a "little bit" of a psycopath?

I don't think there's a smooth, gradual spectrum, but I could be wrong. At least there are varieties with different traits being more pronounced.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: solesister Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39620 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/11/2012 9:11 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Something happened to make that person think s/he deserved to be treated that way, or s/he saw something, over & over, that led him/her to think such behavior is normal.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Hetepheres Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39633 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/12/2012 11:36 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I think he's overstating it significantly.

I have finished the book now, and I have a better understanding of what a sociopath actually is.

Here's a link and you may search inside it for the phrase "now thought to be present in about 4 percent of the population". The notes (citations) will be the last found. Enjoy.

http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/07...

From the notes:
"now thought to be present in about 4 percent of the population: See K. Barry et al., "conduct Disorder and Antisocial Personality in Adult primary Care Patients," Journal of Family Practice 45 (1997): 151-158; R. Bland, S. Newman, and H. Orn, "Lifetime Prevalence of Psychiatric Disorders in Edmonton." Acta Psychiatria Scandinavinca 77 (1988) 24-32; J. Samuels et al., "DSM-III Personality Disorders in the Community,; American Journal of Psychiatry 151 (1994): 1055-1062; (...)"

Yours in psychiatric research,

Hetep

Print the post Back To Top
Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39634 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/12/2012 11:58 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I had it backwards. Sociopaths can experience actual bonding with another person, but psycopaths cannot.Most sociopaths are created due to their experiences as children, where psychopaths are pretty much born without the ability to empathize or feel guilt.

However, psycopaths can and often do create a seemingly normal personality to be able to move through society. They can be both charming and brutal at the same time. Like a lot of CEOs and corporate attornies ;0)

Link to an article explaning the the differences between psychopaths and sociopaths.

http://blogs.psychcentral.com/forensic-focus/2010/07/sociopa...

Print the post Back To Top
Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39701 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/25/2012 10:33 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
He is nasty and manipulative for an extended period and then suddenly does something minimally nice. She is so appreciative, all is well for the time being.
******************
I've seen this time and again with clients. He's an abusive monster, but there's that five minutes once a year when he acts like Prince Charming. It's that five minutes that keeps people hooked in.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: lovingrose Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39702 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 10/25/2012 10:38 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
{{{{{{{brewer}}}}}}}

Keep the lines of communication open with your friend. Do you know if she's ever abused the kids? An anonymous call to DCFS might be in order. Find information about services for abused men and give it to him, or at least, let him know you have it if/when he needs it. It also might not hurt for you to talk to a professional to see what things you can do as a concerned friend.

Also, keep in mind that oftentimes it is much harder for men, who are supposed to be strong and "manly", to admit they are being abused by a member of the 'weaker' sex.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: joycets Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39911 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 11/12/2012 10:40 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Steve Jobs named a computer after his daughter so I don't think he qualified as a sociopath (or was it psychopath?) under that definition.

jts

Print the post Back To Top
Author: legalwordwarrior Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 39917 of 44849
Subject: Re: An Open Letter Date: 11/13/2012 4:59 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Steve Jobs named a computer after his daughter so I don't think he qualified as a sociopath (or was it psychopath?) under that definition.

Holy cow! Steve Jobs named his daughter iPad?

LWW

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (40) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement