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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 445690  
Subject: Re: atheist question Date: 11/10/2004 11:48 AM
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(and I'm not going to explain you the Bible).

You really don't have to. I've read it cover to cover several times. As I have explained before, I was a Sunday School teacher. I sang in the church choir. I played piano for the Sunday School classes. I went to Christian camp, as well as extra religious classes. I was "confirmed." My father was a Deacon in the church, my mother a soloist in the church choir. She also sang with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir during the war years. I have plenty of religious training, but thanks for the non-offer.

If you want to believe in God, that's dandy. I don't recall saying you should not, just as I don't think you should not necessarily believe in the tooth fairy. Doing so, in the absence of proof, is entirely your decision..

In concrete you can start by proving me where and how hydrogen and oxygen came in our world. This brings us back to the birth of our blue planet and all the coincidences that accompany the "creation"

Oh goodness we're back to this. Atheism 101. OK, if there had to be a "creator" in order to have hydrogen and oxygen, why didn't there have to be a "creator" to make the "creator." If the "creator" has "always been", why can't hydrogen and oxygen have "always been."? Why do you insist on changing the rules to suit your belief? Either everything, including the creator has "always been", or there must have been "a creator" to create them. But if there is a creator to create the creator, who created that first creator? You see. You offer a silly argument - and think it makes sense. It doesn't.

I'll preceed you by stating that you can prove nothing either.

I never said I could. I can't prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist, either. That doesn't mean I should believe in her, does it?

Scientists have nice theories about the big bang but I also noticed that all of the reknown scientists on the matter, have admitted that something or someone needed to be involved in the creation of the galaxy.

Yes, "something" created the galaxy. What that is, science cannot yet answer. Perhaps it never will. There was a day when science could not answer "what causes diseases", but now it can. There was a day when science could not answer "what causes hydrogen and oxygen to combine" but now it can. You can believe in genies and hobgoblins to answer your so-far unanswered questions if you like, but that doesn't make genies and hobgoblins real.

We can also look at humanity from another perspective.
Humanity has experienced all kinds of religions, political systems, moral values, etcetera. and it has done so over and over again.
What has man achieved after four thousand years? I say morally we have not advanced ONE inch!


This is where you are completely wrong. Women now have rights. Slavery is, for the most part, eradicated. We attempt to feed the poor because it is the right thing to do, rather than allow them to starve. Is there still gross injustice? Of course. But we have come miles over where the Romans were. Do we feed humans to ravenous animals for sport? No. Wake up and smell the roses!

On the contrary, our technological progress has far outreached our moral capactiy and has brought us today at the edge of a possible annihilation.

We have always been at the edge of possible annihilation. It is the greatest hubris to think we have not. The fossil record shows everything is annihilated sooner or later. Things change. Life goes on, just in a different form. If you think we are destined for "forever", well, good luck to you.

I'm not proving the existence of God because I cannot, just like I cannot prove the use of prayer. But I did emphasize that without a God, it isn't going to get any better, that has been proven too.

Blah blah blah. You demonstrated nothing. You are reverting to "it must be true because I say so." Sorry, but that doesn't fly on this board.

I challenge you to find me one work, just one, in which I can find an equally valuable set of rules to lead a decent live.

You must be joking. The entire continent of Asia couldn't give a rat's patootie about "the Bible", and yet there are billions of people there living quite fine lives. The American Indians lived respectful and sometimes abundant lives, and they never said "Thank you Jesus" once in 10,000 years.

However I would say "the Golden Rule" is a good one. Is it in the Bible? Yes. It's also found in nearly every other major religion, and it's a pretty good rule all by itself. I don't need the Preacherman to tell me so on Sunday mornings. It's self evident, I think:

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
1. Judaism and Christianity. Bible, Leviticus 19.18

Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
2. Christianity. Bible, Matthew 7.12

Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.
3. Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13

A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated.
4. Jainism. Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence.
5. Confucianism. Mencius VII.A.4

One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself.
6. Hinduism. Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 113.8

"It is the word shu--reciprocity: Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you."
7. Confucianism. Analects 15.23

Comparing oneself to others in such terms as "Just as I am so are they, just as they are so am I," he should neither kill nor cause others to kill.
8. Buddhism. Sutta Nipata 705

One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts.
9. African Traditional Religions. Yoruba Proverb (Nigeria)

One who you think should be hit is none else but you. One who you think should be governed is none else but you. One who you think should be tortured is none else but you. One who you think should be enslaved is none else but you. One who you think should be killed is none else but you. A sage is ingenuous and leads his life after comprehending the parity of the killed and the killer. Therefore, neither does he cause violence to others nor does he make others do so.
10. Jainism. Acarangasutra 5.101-2

Personally I have found wisdom in the words of Jesus.

Yeah, he said some good things. It's a shame the Church got hold of it, though.
 
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