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Author: uccowboy Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 2247  
Subject: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/17/2000 11:50 PM
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Author: arosaen One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1341 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 2:55 AM
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uccowboy,

That was a thought-provoking post, and I appreciate that you took such care to articulate your views. I would like to comment on this passage:

Regaurding the wedding photo:
Tolerance is not the same as suspension of your own personal values. Tolerance does not mean that all values are good, only that the values you think are not, they must be addressed in a civil manner, people must be allowed the same free-willed privledge as you to hold them. Tolerance never should force you to advocate something to children or consumers that may be wrong - life continues to compell us to show others what is right - it only asks that we not infinge on others rights to do the same.

Because we are free to share with mass numbers of children and consumers any sexual values we choose, this does not mean that shareing any or every sexual value is a good thing. In fact our free-to-choose situating makes it even more imperitive that we choose the right thing. Do you see the distinction I am trying to make?


I assume that A&F has some advertisement with a photo of two men or two women who were just married, or something like that. I haven't seen it, but I know that A&F is considered to be a so-called "pro gay" company, so it doesn't surprise me if that's what they did.

I feel like what you are saying here is "I am tolerant of the existence of homosexuality, but I still personally think there is something not quite okay about it, so let's not 'promote' it in any way." That is your right to think that. And I recognize that people have limited control over their gut-reactions to things, people, behaviors, whatever.

But my reaction to your reaction is something like "get with it". "Sexual values" permiate the media and have for a long time. All over TV and movies there is promiscuity, cheating, etc. Some of the most romantic movies of all time ("The English Patient" and "The Bridges of Madison County" to name two) are about adultury, which most can agree is not the "right value" in any way. I agree that the prevalance of all this stuff in the media is not necessarily a good thing, but I also think that attempts to try to "put a stop to it" are futile. And I think to focus on "homosexuality" as the "value" whose exposure we should tone down is wrong. So what's the difference between the media as a whole romanticising promiscuity and A&F's showing a gay couple? It's that people do not choose to be gay, so it is not a "value"! In 30 years (and hopefully sooner), I think that people will look back on our reluctance to fully accept gay marriage and homosexuality in the same way we look back on the condemnation of interracial marriage: with amazement and sadness. (FYI, Alabama just repealed a law against interracial marriage last Tuesday, so maybe we're not quite looking back on it just yet).

Ultimately, society as a whole will decide what values and images a company should not promote. It is your right to try to unite people of your mind (tollerant but not fully accepting) and see if society as a whole agrees with you. I just wanted to throw my two (admittedly long-winded) cents in.

If I have missrepresented your views in any way, I appoligize; please clarify so that the discussion can remain respectful.

cheers,
arosaen

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Author: BankerNoMore Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1342 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 4:19 AM
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uccowboy,

First off, I have no love for ANF as a clothier and don't have any opinion on them as a business.

But are folks supposed to be impressed with your "tolerance" of homosexuals in 2000? And even then only if it is kept hidden away in private, right?

It saddens me that in this day and age folks still continue to live such isolated lives that opinions like these survive.

If people would make an effort to get to know others who are different from themselves perhaps they could get beyond their pre-conceived notions.

People are different. That is part of the beauty of this world - what a horribly boring place it might be if we were all the same!
And yet, you will have much in common even with the person you think is most different from you if you take the time to get to know them.

Gay and lesbian folks tolerate (or don't really care at all about) all the photos in ANF of straight couples horsing around, so what's the problem of showing a bent couple?

Thank you arosaen for re-iterating that most folks do not choose to be gay (and your other points)!
If your (uccowboy's) child is influenced into "becoming" gay due to some pictures in a catalog, perhaps you haven't done your job as a parent. And with all the other influences in media that they are probably exposed to more often than the ANF catalog, I'd say "becoming" gay should be the least of your worries.

And in the ridiculously unlikely event your child did "choose to become gay" due to photos in ANF, what's the harm? That's also part of the beauty of choice that folks have in America. And besides, they'd still have you as a loving parent ooops I mean tolerant parent.

Sorry if I'm being harsh and sarcastic, uccowboy, but it's time to open your mind and heart some more.

Dave







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Author: RickBrooks Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1343 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 9:15 AM
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I've been posting (death penalty/prison topics) and lurking for the last few days on the Speaker's Corner-Christian Fools board. I consider myself pretty moderate. I've found out that I'm a flaming liberal! I have no major problem with ads like this. I didn't choose to be straight one day. Guess I was just born that way. A&C's advertising is not going to create gays and lesbians. I don't even believe that it glorifies of makes homosexuality more (or less) acceptable in our society. But that's just my opinion. Good fortune. Rick

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Author: DeadheadFool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1344 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 12:06 PM
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That the man-woman union is the only sanction by god, and if not that ask them to reamian politically neutral and just sell clothing. Hardly a radical possition for me to take.


Please keep your Christian fears and pontifications off "non-Christian" boards. There are plenty of more appropriate boards for you to share you values on.

Sorry for the the tone, but this kind of crap just pisses me off. There's no room for it in this world.

The other replies are right on. Open your eyes and think for yourself instead of taking some ancient text's words for your guide.

Chris

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Author: tabletennis Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1345 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 1:33 PM
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<< Some of the most romantic movies of all time ("The English Patient" and "The Bridges of Madison County" to name two) >>

I know I'm getting off topic here, but I was so stunned by this statement that I just had to reply. I saw the "English Patient", and I thought it was one of the shallowest movies of all time, and not even remotely romantic. As far as I can tell, a lot of men seem to think its romantic, but I personally don't know of any women who think so. Call me sexist, if you must, but I knew right away that this story could only have been written by a man. It would be kind of interesting to take a poll and see how many men vs. women thought it was romantic, but this board wasn't intended for such pursuits, so I will drop it.

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Author: arosaen One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1346 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 4:40 PM
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"English Patient", and I thought it was one of the shallowest movies of all time, and not even remotely
romantic. As far as I can tell, a lot of men seem to think its romantic, but I personally don't know of any
women who think so.


That's really funny, because I know a lot of women who think it's romantic and a lot of guys who are indifferent to it. I personally was disturbed by it too, but I assumed (there's the trouble) that it was widely regarded as a romantic story. Different strokes for different folks I guess :)

Interesting comment.

arosaen

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Author: arosaen One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1347 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 4:54 PM
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uccowboy said:
That the man-woman union is the only sanction by god, and if not that ask them to reamian politically neutral and just sell clothing. Hardly a radical possition for me to take.

DeadheadFool said:
Please keep your Christian fears and pontifications off "non-Christian" boards. There are plenty of more appropriate boards for you to share your values on.

I ask: which one is more intollerant?

There is probably a natural tension between the sort of liberal fold (environmentalists, social activists, etc.) who frequent this board and religios activists of all types (of course there are overlaps, but arguments are much easier to make if one makes broad generalizations :) ). Both are worried about holding corporations responsible for their actions. I think this board should be as inclusive as possible. Let's all try to take the high road here and try to find common ground. Often I think both sides will have to agree to disagree. But the tone should remain respectful. It is taking the easy way out to banish religious people off to their "Christian Boards" to do their "Christian thing" so we liberal, like-minded folk can don't have to have our mutual admiration society interrupted by having to think and debate. It is a much more interesting and challenging problem to be inclusive, figure out where the common ground is, and work together on those issues.

Now, of course, I'm being "holier than thou" too, which will probably piss people off and start another flame war. But don't let my underlying point be lost: we all gain from inclusiveness and respectfulness, even if fundamental disagreements remain after it's all said and done.

arosaen

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Author: tabletennis Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1348 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/18/2000 11:08 PM
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<< But the tone should remain respectful. >>

I wholeheartedly agree. It is disturbing to me when we lash out at each other on this board.




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Author: SBXJavadude Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1349 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/19/2000 12:32 PM
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WOW! That is quite a post.

First of all ANF knows exactly what it is doing with these ads. They want all that disposable income gays and lesbians are alleged to have. So three cheers for marketing.

Second those ads are in their catalog. This is the same company who had controversy last year as well. As far as I know, no one is forcing anyone to pick up their catalogs. If you do not want your kids to have them, be a parent, and keep it out of your home.

Next point this is a company on very shaky ground. They need money. So controversy is going to get people to check them out and potentially buy. Benetton did this in the 80's with their very in your face ads. This is nothing new.

People are free to invest or not invest in whatever company they choose. If you find the company's appeal to the gay community offensive, then do not invest. But these kind of appeals to others only bring attention to a company, and little is ever accomplished by actions like this. For example, the Baptists have picketed and boycotted Disney, as well as selling off shares. All this was in protest to Disney offering benefits to same sex partners of employees. As you can see Disney is doing just fine.

Finally, while I appreciate your "tolerance," I live for a day when people do a little more than "tolerate." To be honest I hope for a day when we can accept others, and embrace their differences. I am not sure I want to raise any kids I may have in a society where people think they are doing ok to just "tolerate" each other.

Respectfully,
Charlie



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Author: CrazyOtto Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1366 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/25/2000 9:24 AM
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And meanwhile over on the A&F board, an interesting comment from the non SRI world:

To me, buying and selling stocks is all about making money, and I generally leave morals aside when making investment decisions.

for full message:
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=13735417

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Author: RickBrooks Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1367 of 2247
Subject: Re: ANF and homosexuality Date: 11/25/2000 12:23 PM
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Would he count fronting a crack dealer a moral investing decision? That's all about making money, too. Leave morals aside? I don't want this guy anywhere near my cash! Good fortune. Rick

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