Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (26) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22652  
Subject: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promising Date: 7/11/2004 1:03 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=440479&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Print the post Back To Top
Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3450 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 4:42 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
No, it doesn't sound promising. It sounds like the same old vague statements.

The PLO Coventant (their constitution) calls for the destruction of Israel. 12 years ago at Oslo, the PLO signed an agreement that -- among other things -- called for them to change their covenent.

They haven't yet done so. They did "pretend" to do so, and the world community pretty much fell for the trick.

See here for details:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_plo_charter_revise.php

So, shaggy, it still comes down to this: The PLO's basic intent is to destroy the state of Israel; it has always been so, and they've done nothing to change that.

Also, Shaggy, are you aware that Arafat routinely gives different and conflicting messages depending on what language he uses? When he speaks English, he's all for compromise and peace. Then he speaks to his supporters in Arabic and calls for Jihad.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3455 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 7:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
So, shaggy, it still comes down to this: The PLO's basic intent is to destroy the state of Israel; it has always been so, and they've done nothing to change that.

Also, Shaggy, are you aware that Arafat routinely gives different and conflicting messages depending on what language he uses? When he speaks English, he's all for compromise and peace. Then he speaks to his supporters in Arabic and calls for Jihad.


Thank you. It so refreshing to read something truthful. It's really quite nice.

Shaggy is quite sympathetic to Yasser Arafat in case you hadn't noticed. In fact, I would consider it a safe bet that in Shaggy's view, Arafat compares quite favorably to Ariel Sharon or any other Israeli prime minister in Israel's history for that matter whether from Likud or Labor. Of coarse, he might very well come on this board to say otherwise.

Did you know that Shaggy and Yasser have something else in common besides a disdain for Zionists and the IDF and Israelis in Judea, Samaria and Gaza? Shaggy like Arafat also engages in selective rhetoric depending upon his audience. If you go over to the PA board for today's date, you will find Shaggy saying all sorts of odd things relating and identifying Israelis and Zionists as "Nazis" - Jews being tagged with the Nazi label. I asked him to stop it and he replied that I was the one who brought up the genocide of six million Jews afterall.

Shaggy obviously demonstrates tremendous sensitivity to the Jewish people, although I have never once heard him express it openly.

eolith.



Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3456 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 8:01 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi Stevenjklien,

'So, shaggy, it still comes down to this: The PLO's basic intent is to destroy the state of Israel; it has always been so, and they've done nothing to change that.'

Perhaps it is still the case, but I have hope based on polls which say the Palistinians people themselves wish peace, so lets hope that what was so, will not be so in the future.

'Also, Shaggy, are you aware that Arafat routinely gives different and conflicting messages depending on what language he uses? When he speaks English, he's all for compromise and peace. Then he speaks to his supporters in Arabic and calls for Jihad.'

I am aware that Arafat is a two-faced bigot; saying one thing in English and another in Arabic. I do not think Arafat speaks for the majority of Palistinains though, just like Blair did not speak for many in the UK with his pro-war stance.

Regs, Shaggy

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3457 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 8:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi eolith,

'Did you know that Shaggy and Yasser have something else in common besides a disdain for Zionists and the IDF and Israelis in Judea, Samaria and Gaza? Shaggy like Arafat also engages in selective rhetoric depending upon his audience. If you go over to the PA board for today's date, you will find Shaggy saying all sorts of odd things relating and identifying Israelis and Zionists as "Nazis" - Jews being tagged with the Nazi label. I asked him to stop it and he replied that I was the one who brought up the genocide of six million Jews afterall.'

Since you brought up Nazis on PA in your thread, CF replied to you and reminded you of the marking of Palistinians with numbers, like happened with the Jews in Germany during WWII.

I had not heard of that before, and did some research and found, as well as CF's reply with a link, that this was in fact done in the


Here is the chronology and your thread

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21007080&sort=whole#21008330



eolith mentions 'Nazi' in post: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21007195

'Since you live in Germany, perhaps you can help me understand something. Is ignorance or sheer hatred or a combination that leads Germans against the Jewish state of Israel in favor of Israel's enemies who are terrorists bent on destroying the Jewish homeland?

How is it that Germans, who themselves today have grandfathers and great grandfathers that committed the genocide of six million Jews in Europe, remain such ardent supporters of the ongoing Arab obsession and purpose to actually finish the mass murder of the Jewish people that the Nazis began? Is it because they the Germans have never gotten over their own murderous hatred of Jews? That they the German have never cast off the very sort of violent bloodlust that led their grandfathers and great grandfathers to such evil acts of inhumanity?

Where is the conscience of the German people now when it comes to reparations for the atrocities against six million Jews, many of whom still cry out from the gas chambers and ovens of Auschwitz? Have the Germans paid one German mark or one Euro toward the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel or in support of the resettlement of Jewish refugees in their homeland since the Holocaust and the mass murder?'



ClickFool mentions the numbering of Palistinians 'Nazi style' by the IDF: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21007677

"Tell that to the Palestinians who had identification numbers written on their forearms by the IDF."


I ask Clickfool for a link to this info: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21007698

"Really??? Do you have a link to this?"

I then find it for myself plus ClickFool informs me:

"Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz ordered a halt to the practice of Israeli troops writing identification numbers on the foreheads and forearms of Palestinian detainees awaiting interrogation during the army's incursion into the Tulkarm refugee camp on March 9. Sharon's spokesman Ra'anan Gissin acknowledged that numbering prisoners in such a way did not create an attractive media image, conjuring parallels of Nazi tattooing of concentration camp prisoners, however misleading. "If the idea was to convey a message of deterrence, clearly it conflicts with the desire to convey a public relations message," he told Army Radio.

http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0180.htm "


I then reply in shock: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21007734

"So acting like Nazis is 'deterrence' now - Christ, that explains it then.

Israel's 'deterrence' policy, razing houses; collective punishments, etc, are Nazi procedures that the Israeli's think are good as they have had first hand experience of them.

HOW SICK IS THAT !!!!

Disgusted - again."


Eolith then goes off into rant mode - as his his want: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21007791

"You Jew haters have reached a fevered pitch of hysteria in your Israel bashing now! You think that simply marking with ink that washes off the arms of terrorists being organized for legal interrogation relates in any way shape or form to the Nazi tatoo numbers branded on Jews in the death camps where literally millions of Jews were murdered? Are you serious? Are you out of your minds? You all are absolutely beyond the pale of any sane thought whatsoever."



I won't bother the board with anymore of his dilutional exchanges, suffice to say, if you know him, beware.

Regs, Shaggy

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3459 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 8:41 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
First:

Arafat interview with Haaretz- sound promising

Then:

I am aware that Arafat is a two-faced bigot; saying one thing in English and another in Arabic. I do not think Arafat speaks for the majority of Palistinains though, just like Blair did not speak for many in the UK with his pro-war stance.

Regs, Shaggy




Interesting how Shaggy shifts around on Yasser Arafat from at first being "promising" and then to being a "two-faced bigot" - sounds like Shaggy has one more thing in common with Yasser.

eolith.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3460 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 9:08 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
eolith,

First:

Arafat interview with Haaretz- sound promising

Then:

I am aware that Arafat is a two-faced bigot; saying one thing in English and another in Arabic. I do not think Arafat speaks for the majority of Palistinains though, just like Blair did not speak for many in the UK with his pro-war stance.

Regs, Shaggy



Interesting how Shaggy shifts around on Yasser Arafat from at first being "promising" and then to being a "two-faced bigot" - sounds like Shaggy has one more thing in common with Yasser.

------------

You, of all people, will come to understand that a bigot can change their spots when faced with reality.

Regs, Shaggy

Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3461 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 9:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
eolith:

My understanding has been that the wall is linear. This implies that the wall does loops along the way. If there are no loops then how are the Palestinian "encircled" by the wall. Whatever the inconvenience and hardships brought on the Arabs by the wall it was the "Palestinians" themselves that made the wall necessary by their ongoing support of Arab terrorism against Jewish Israelis. You continue to insist on relating and identifying the IDF and Zionists to Nazis and I find that intolerably insulting.

shaggy:

And? I find you rather laughable with your ignorance, and your blind faith.

Lets looks at some comparisons:

1. Numbering;
2. Ghettos;
3. Collective punishment;
4. Ethnic cleansing;
5. Razing of housing.

Christ, you only need genocide, a frog march and a 6m figure to make it a mirror.






Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3462 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 9:39 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Fantastic, lets play:



eolith: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=20987978

"Moledet ("homeland" in Hebrew) is an ideological political party in Israel that embraces the idea of population transfer as an integral part of comprehensive plan to achieve real peace between the Jews and the Arabs Living in the Land of Israel."


eolith: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21008402

"I want an humane relocation with compensation of the vast majority of Arabs living in Judea, Samaria and Gaza to Arab nations. Resettlement is not ethnic cleansing. The Moledet leader Binjamin Elon has come up with a brilliant idea to allow for the Israeli annexation of Judea and Samaria by conferring Jordanian citizenship on the "Palestinian" Arabs and giving them the status of foreign nationals living in Israel until a better arrangement could be made. In any event, keeping more than three million Arabs on Jewish land for the expressed purpose of destroying Israel is untenable and cannot be allowed to go indefinately without seriously threatening the Jewish state of Israel."


You're one sick puppy eolith, your views and ideology are Nazi and you are a neo-nazi under Judaism is would seem.

Regs, Shaggy

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3463 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 10:24 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
The only correction that I would make is that I believe that the Israelis wouldn't have to confer Jordanian citizenship on the "Palestinian" Arabs because as I understand the Jordanian government already granted all "Palestinians" Jordanian citizenship. So these Arabs living in Judea and Samaria already have Jordanian citizenship if I'm not mistaken. It's Elon's position that Israel only needs to recognize the Palestinians as foreign nationals with Jordanian citizenship without removing them from their homes. This is my understanding. In any event, it allows for the immediate legal annexation of Judea and Samaria without the problem of Arab demographic issues upsetting the Jewish majority in the Jewish state of Israel.

This does nothing for the security concerns involved with having so many Arab terrorists and jihadists on Jewish land and living in Arab refugee camps. These murderous Arabs need to be killed rather than deported.

Otherwise, I stand by every word. Shaggy, you can go to hell with your insults and your name calling. I am proud to be a Zionist. I support the Moledet and the Elon peace plan.

And I don't back down to anti-Semites like you.

eolith.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3464 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 10:34 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi eolith,

'The only correction that I would make is that I believe that the Israelis wouldn't have to confer Jordanian citizenship on the "Palestinian" Arabs because as I understand the Jordanian government already granted all "Palestinians" Jordanian citizenship.'


Yet another correction from the Shaggy book of factual facts is required for you to munch.

All Palestine refugees in Jordan have full Jordanian citizenship with the exception of about 100,000 refugees originally from the Gaza Strip, which up to 1967 was administered by Egypt. They are eligible for temporary Jordanian passports, which do not entitle them to full citizenship rights such as the right to vote and employment with the government.


'So these Arabs living in Judea and Samaria already have Jordanian citizenship if I'm not mistaken.'

As detailed above, you are.


'It's Elon's position that Israel only needs to recognize the Palestinians as foreign nationals with Jordanian citizenship without removing them from their homes. This is my understanding. In any event, it allows for the immediate legal annexation of Judea and Samaria without the problem of Arab demographic issues upsetting the Jewish majority in the Jewish state of Israel.'

Elon's a muppet.

'This does nothing for the security concerns involved with having so many Arab terrorists and jihadists on Jewish land and living in Arab refugee camps. These murderous Arabs need to be killed rather than deported.'

How many 'Arab terrorists and jihadists' do you calculate you need to kill - a number please.


'Otherwise, I stand by every word. Shaggy, you can go to hell with your insults and your name calling. I am proud to be a Zionist. I support the Moledet and the Elon peace plan.'


You are a promoter of terror, a disgrace to Judaism, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Period.

Regs, Shaggy

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3465 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 10:46 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0

How many 'Arab terrorists and jihadists' do you calculate you need to kill - a number please.


How many Nazis did the Allied Forces need to kill to destroy the Nazi regime? What was the number? I'm not sure exactly. I believe it must have been in the millions if you consider the Russian campaign as well as the African campaign in addition to the Western Front.

As for the number of Arab terrorists and jihadists, I would say that the number would probably fall into the hundreds of thousands or maybe fewer. The Americans and the British are also in the war against the Arab terrorists and jihadists in case you haven't noticed.

When are you going to reply to the presentation by the Arab American, Joseph Farah, on the phony "Palestinian" agenda? Perhaps I should post his writeup here. Think I will.

eolith.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3466 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 10:49 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1

The Jews took no one's land

By Joseph Farah

Posted: April 23, 2002


As the most visible Arab-American critic of Yasser Arafat and the phony "Palestinian" agenda, I get a lot of hate mail.

I've even received more than my share of death threats.

Most of those who attack me – at least those who bother to get beyond the four-letter words and insults – say I just don't understand or have sympathy for these poor Arabs who were displaced, chased out of their homes and turned into refugees by the Israelis.

Let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land.

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people. He referred to it as a vast wasteland. The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land Moses and Joshua had conquered millennia earlier, Christians and Jews believe, on the direct orders of God.

That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. The source for that statistic? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906. And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.

As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen. Arabs followed. I don't blame them. They had good reason to come. They came for jobs. They came for prosperity. They came for freedom. And they came in large numbers.

Winston Churchill observed in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

Then came 1948 and the great partition. The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.

Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire. They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed. It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes. When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices. When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.

It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.




Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3467 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/11/2004 11:27 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Hi eolith,

Joseph Farah makes some interesting point, but he seems to lack the understanding of international law, as practiced by modern man in the last century.

He fails to understand that the Arabs in the area were a nomadic people, so he's saying in effect that any lands that are not perminently inhabited, are not belonging to a people. I would ask him to look at Africa for an example of nomadic tribes having rights to lands before states came about - their territory was recoginized by surrounding tribes well before international law, and the state existed

Palistinians were about long before Islam was, Jews lived with them, they fled to Egypt and the nomadic people (Arabs) stayed.

Who left, who stayed - bah! Its ancient history, we should keep to modernity and to international law and under internattional law, the Palistinians have lands assigned to them.

Negotiations are still underway, if not on the surface, and if under the conflict that is the Israeli/Palistinian conflict.

No side has accepted its borders, not ideology or religion has accepted lines in the ground, and each wishes more than the other is willing to offer.

You propogate extreme Zionism, the 'returning' of lands promissed by God - Well I say I'd like Him to come now and judge, and if he does not, then let international rather than religious or idealogical 'law', decide.

Your mantra is fanatic, you seem no better than the terrorists you wish to kill - you do not aid peace, you fuel war and conflict, you are trouble with a capital 'T', and you need you fellow Jews to put you in your place as I seem unable to.

Regs, Shaggy

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3469 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/12/2004 4:55 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
The only correction that I would make is that I believe that the Israelis wouldn't have to confer Jordanian citizenship on the "Palestinian" Arabs because as I understand the Jordanian government already granted all "Palestinians" Jordanian citizenship.

Wrong. Jordan relinquished all claims to the West Bank and its residents before it signed a peace agreement with Israel in 1994.

Furthermore, the notion that you can force another country to grant the Palestinians citizenship or the Palestinians to accept it is ludicrous. And the idea that the Palestinians will voluntarily leave, or that Israel has any right to remove them from their homes by force, is equally ludicrous. It is not only impractical, it is immoral and illegal. Israel's policy has been and will continue to be that no ethnic cleansing is acceptable. There are only two possible choices - annex the land and grant Israeli citizenship to its residents, or let go of the land and let the residents determine their own future. What Elon and you espouse puts Israel to shame and hurts its cause.

Palistinians were about long before Islam was, Jews lived with them, they fled to Egypt and the nomadic people (Arabs) stayed.

Ah, now we have Arafat's nonsense being quoted as fact. When the Jews left Egypt under the leadership of Moses and returned to Canaan there were no Palestinians living there. There were several nations - Amalek, Yevusi, Emori, etc. They were destroyed or immersed into the Israelite nation. The only exception were the Philistines who continued to occupy a portion of the land roughly in the area of the Gaza strip. They had no relation whatsoever to the modern day Palestinians. The Palestinians are descendants of Arab tribes that migrated to the land after the Roman conquest and the exile of the Jews, at the earliest. The Arabs may have actually appeared much later because one thousand years ago the area was inhabited by Nabatians, although I don't have an accurate knowledge of that part of history.

Elan

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3470 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/12/2004 6:20 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi Elan,

'Palistinians were about long before Islam was, Jews lived with them, they fled to Egypt and the nomadic people (Arabs) stayed.'

Ah, now we have Arafat's nonsense being quoted as fact. When the Jews left Egypt under the leadership of Moses and returned to Canaan there were no Palestinians living there. There were several nations - Amalek, Yevusi, Emori, etc. They were destroyed or immersed into the Israelite nation. The only exception were the Philistines who continued to occupy a portion of the land roughly in the area of the Gaza strip. They had no relation whatsoever to the modern day Palestinians. The Palestinians are descendants of Arab tribes that migrated to the land after the Roman conquest and the exile of the Jews, at the earliest. The Arabs may have actually appeared much later because one thousand years ago the area was inhabited by Nabatians, although I don't have an accurate knowledge of that part of history.'

From my research, I thought this was true, I was reexamine this to see if I am talking BS and let you know what I find.

I am very willing to to be corrected if offered other evidence, unlike some ;-) (not yourself in this particular case).

Are you saying that the land was barren of a people, no nomadic people ever called it theirs or had claim that it was theirs?

I'm not entirely convinced that all the Jews left and went to Egypt as I'm not entirerly of the veiw that biblical stories should be accepted as fact - which means, in effect, that I am not entirely convinced that BOTH sets of peoples (Jews and Palistinians) do not have claim to the lands, not one or the other BUT BOTH.

Regs, Shaggy

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3473 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/12/2004 9:42 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
I do not think Arafat speaks for the majority of Palistinains though, just like Blair did not speak for many in the UK with his pro-war stance.

Ah, but Arafat was elected, and continues to enjoy overwhelming support among his so-called Palestinian followers.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3477 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/12/2004 1:22 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Are you saying that the land was barren of a people, no nomadic people ever called it theirs or had claim that it was theirs?

No. All the people in the region were nomadic in the time of Abraham. Abraham himself migrated from what is now Iraq to Canaan. The tribe of Jacob, which included his twelve sons who were the fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel, emigrated to Egypt. There were probably other tribes in Canaan at the time. When the twelve tribes were freed from slavery in Egypt and returned to Canaan they conquered the area by the sword. They killed the other nations that lived there at the time, or enslaved them, or assimilated them. From that time until the destruction of the first temple the Jewish people had sole ownership of the land.

I'm not entirely convinced that all the Jews left and went to Egypt as I'm not entirerly of the view that biblical stories should be accepted as fact - which means, in effect, that I am not entirely convinced that BOTH sets of peoples (Jews and Palistinians) do not have claim to the lands, not one or the other BUT BOTH.

We've discussed this before and I'm tired of running around in circles. Just to repeat my view for the record - whether one believes in god or not, the bible is a fairly accurate account of historic events as shown by many archeological records.

The question of modern day Palestininans' residence has no support in the bible simply because they did not exist at the time. As I wrote above, the Jews owned the land exclusively from the time they emerged from Egypt until they were exiled by the Romans. Modern Palestinians are not descendants of any of the other tribes or nations that existed in Canaan before the Roman exile. At most, they can trace their ancestry to people who filled the vacuum after the Jews were exiled by the Romans. Even that is doubtful as I believe the modern Palestinians are much more recent inhabitants, starting with the Arab conquest of Salah-a-Din (Saladin) in the middle ages.

All this has little relevance to the current dispute IMO. What matters most is who owns a home on the land today. There are Arabs living there and there are Jews living there, and they all have a right to their homes. (I'm not talking strict property rights either - if you call it home it's your home). It so happens that in this area there are two distinct nations - distinct in language, culture, religion, self-identification. Both have a right to self-determination and the only peaceful solution is two countries based on some compromise.

Elan

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3484 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/12/2004 7:51 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0

Elan,

I stand corrected once again. Jordan did in fact revoke citizenship to Arabs living in Judea and Samaria on July 31, 1988. I have been doing so much research and had come across the information that Jordan had at one point offered Jordanian citizenship to those Arabs living west of the Jordan River without realising that it had been in fact rescinded. Thank you for factually correcting my error. Turns out that I had it right the first time when I referenced the Elon peace plan to confer through negotiated settlement (not force) Jordanian citizenship on the "Palestinian" Arabs in Judea and Samaria.

As for the opinions that you expressed subsequently, I respectfully reject those. And I assert my right to hold beliefs and convictions and to express them freely and openly as much I choose. The "two state solution" between the river and the sea is the true absurdity. The reality of an Arab state west of the Jordan would invite catastrophe on the Jewish state of Israel. The limited autonomy that came from Oslo led to increased capability for terrorism and open warfare against Israel. Only when that power base was once again disassembled at a high cost I might add, the "Palestinian" terrorists targeted for killing and the construction of the wall begin, did the escalation in Arab violence against Israel abate.

Once a "Palestinian State" is established as a sovereign nation, then what would prevent the "Palestinians" from inviting Syrian, Iranian, Saudi, Jordanian, Egyptian, Pakistani military forces, tanks and soldiers, from being stationed on Israel's border inside the Jordan River along the most narrow stretches of Israeli land? Suppose the "Palestinians" vote to allow the placement of missile batteries? Suppose the "Palestinians" vote to permit nuclear weapons on the Israeli border? You might say it could already happen in Jordan, but the Jordanians have leadership somewhat different than the "Palestinians" and, in any event, being threatened from across the Jordan River is one thing while be being attacked inside your own territory is something else.

But up until now these have only been academic questions. Why? Because no matter how hard the Israeli "peace makers" strive to capitulate to the Arabs, the "Palestinian" leaders always end up in violent opposition to the existence of any Jewish state at all. How in the world can one give something to somebody that they won't ever accept? How do you impose "statehood" on a people that would be invariably rejected on any terms except those that represent the annihilation of Israel? This ridiculous notion of "Palestinian statehood" in Judea and Samaria that some persist in advocating is a pipe dream. All proposals and all negotiations for it have utterly failed so badly that the whole idea has been totally discredited. It will never work. Not matter how you frame or reframe it.

If handing the "Palestinians" a base of operations for their terrorist enterprise and a garrison infrastructure by which to launch lethal attacks against Israel would actually mean, ultimately, national suicide for the Jewish state, would you still favor it? I absolutely believe that Israel cannot afford to take that chance! Israel should never be endangered by reckless policies and unrealistic agreements simply to assuage the moral consciences of left wing thinkers who don't take into account the security risks to the survival of the Jewish state. The "two state solution" is no solution at all.

There's a better way. And hyperbole and invectives against pro-Israeli ideas and arguments won't advance the cause of understanding. And rhetorical attacks and verbal abuse won't help the search for a workable solution. I hope that any discussion could be kept on a level of civility and cordiality.

eolith.



Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3493 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/12/2004 11:17 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
As for the opinions that you expressed subsequently, I respectfully reject those. And I assert my right to hold beliefs and convictions and to express them freely and openly as much I choose.

Of course you do. And your opinion on this matter is both deplorable and harmful to Israel.

But up until now these have only been academic questions. Why? Because no matter how hard the Israeli "peace makers" strive to capitulate to the Arabs, the "Palestinian" leaders always end up in violent opposition to the existence of any Jewish state at all. How in the world can one give something to somebody that they won't ever accept?

That, sadly, is true. Under the current conditions, and perhaps in my lifetime, I don't expect a Palestinian state to be established and peace to come about.

But this discussion is not about what should happen today or next week. It's about what the ultimate solution to the dispute should be. Whenever that solution comes about, I don't see any Arab residents being removed from "Jewish land". It doesn't matter if you call them Palestinians or "Palestinians", they are human beings. The West Bank and Gaza strip are their homes. They don't want to live in Israel, certainly not as second class citizens, and Israel doesn't want them. The only alternative will be to separate them from Israel and, inevitably, let them establish their own state - when the time comes, when they are ready to live in peace with Israel.

Elan

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3496 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/13/2004 7:01 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi Elan,

Cheers for taking the time.

With regards to lands in the past and who 'owns' it: If the Jews conquered the lands of Cannan by the sword, then in turn were conquered by Romans swords, did the land then transfer over, via conquest, to the Romans???

Jews may like to think they where exiles after the Romans conquered them, but that is just, imho, a selfish excuse for still owning the lands as they just seem not to have understood that being conquered by another (Romans) means (when they seem to know darn well what conquering another is) they no longer are the owners of the lands.

It the Palestinians can trace their roots to the Romans who conquered the Jews, they have as much 'right' to the lands as another conquer of those lands before or after.

Regs, Shaggy

Print the post Back To Top
Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3508 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/13/2004 12:43 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Jews may like to think they where exiles after the Romans conquered them, but that is just, imho, a selfish excuse

There you go with your insults again, intentional or not. In many ways, and here again, you keep denying Jewish history, Jewish aspirations, identity, and rights.

It the Palestinians can trace their roots to the Romans who conquered the Jews, they have as much 'right' to the lands as another conquer of those lands before or after.

Look at the difference here. The Palestinians can trace their roots. A statement of fact. Not may like to trace their roots - the phrase you used when refering to Jewish history.

Similar to what I've told stevenklein, I think you may be an anti-Semite whether you recognize and admit it or not. Think about it.

Elan



Print the post Back To Top
Author: eolith Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3509 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/13/2004 2:04 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Similar to what I've told stevenklein, I think you may be an anti-Semite whether you recognize and admit it or not. Think about it.

Elan


Except I would prefer to use the phrase "is demonstrably an anti-Semite" rather than use the phrase "may be an anti-Semite" as in your post. You simply cited one of the numerous subtle ways he always short-changes Israel in every diatribe. He's clever. But in his use of language language, Israel is judged and condemned by a double standard in relation to Arabs and anyone else.

But you don't give him enough credit for knowing exactly what he is doing and why. He knows what he is and what he is doing. He's fully aware of the sly nuanced references that denigrate and insult Israel. He knows.

eolith.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3511 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/13/2004 2:40 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
But you don't give him enough credit for knowing exactly what he is doing and why. He knows what he is and what he is doing. He's fully aware of the sly nuanced references that denigrate and insult Israel. He knows.

I have my doubts. You have to remember the environment. The media in Europe and in Britain in specifically is dominated by virulently anti-Israel reporting. The standouts in Britain are the BBC, Reuters, and The Guardian. Many people are not exposed to balanced reporting and they end up believing what they are told. It is also fashionable to be socialist, anti-establishment, anti-corporate, pro populist-justice, in Europe. People get swept up in this group think without thinking for themselves, and they parrot what they hear. America is the target of much is this populist group think, and Israel is perceived as a mini-America.

There's also a natural tendency to sympathize with the side that appears weak, whether that side is right or wrong. It's easy to focus on individual hardships of the "weak" Palestinians in the media. It's harder to portray Israel as the weak party, an isolated country in a hostile sea of bigotry bent on destroying it.

When an individual has been brainwashed in this way, he's not going to let go of his formed opinion easily. If he has an interest in the subject he will research it and latch on to every piece of confirming evidence he can find, whether right or wrong. That's how anti-semitic viewpoints can be adopted without the individual being aware that he is espousing anti-semitism.

Very few people are self confident enough to question their own beliefs, to seek out contrary information, and to change their opinion. This is true about most of us.

Elan

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3519 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/13/2004 7:19 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi Elan,

'Jews may like to think they where exiles after the Romans conquered them, but that is just, imho, a selfish excuse'

There you go with your insults again, intentional or not. In many ways, and here again, you keep denying Jewish history, Jewish aspirations, identity, and rights.'


Cripes man, get off it for a minute - stick anything other then the word 'Jew' in front of what is being said and the context still fits - bottom line, those conquered are conquered; whether they are Jewish or not. A conquered people are conquered imho - they are not 'exiled' as you put it - we are talking about thousands of years ago and I agree that if it happened in this day and age, international law would hopefully be enforced and those conquered lands would not stay conquered and be delivered back into the hands of those who's land it was and they would return to those lands.


'It the Palestinians can trace their roots to the Romans who conquered the Jews, they have as much 'right' to the lands as another conquer of those lands before or after.'

Look at the difference here. The Palestinians can trace their roots. A statement of fact. Not may like to trace their roots - the phrase you used when refering to Jewish history.'

Hmmmm, the first word was supposed to be 'If', try that - read it again, and you will see that it is a hypothesis; meaning, if one group of persons can trace their roots back a long time, should they too not have the right to lands they used to 'own'.


'Similar to what I've told stevenklein, I think you may be an anti-Semite whether you recognize and admit it or not. Think about it.'

Try starting a board where you are discussing a.n.other problem, similar to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict; start a debate, and you will find that I will argue many of the points I argue against the Israelis as I would against, for instance, the Tibetans occupiers.

Regs, Shaggy

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ShaggyDabbyDo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 3525 of 22652
Subject: Re: Arafat interview with Haaretz - sound promis Date: 7/14/2004 9:35 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi Elan,

Eolith said: 'But you don't give him enough credit for knowing exactly what he is doing and why. He knows what he is and what he is doing. He's fully aware of the sly nuanced references that denigrate and insult Israel. He knows.'

You replied: 'I have my doubts. You have to remember the environment. The media in Europe and in Britain in specifically is dominated by virulently anti-Israel reporting. The standouts in Britain are the BBC, Reuters, and The Guardian. Many people are not exposed to balanced reporting and they end up believing what they are told. It is also fashionable to be socialist, anti-establishment, anti-corporate, pro populist-justice, in Europe. People get swept up in this group think without thinking for themselves, and they parrot what they hear. America is the target of much is this populist group think, and Israel is perceived as a mini-America.'


I do try and read media via the internet from many different sources to inform myself. I use www.newsnow.co.uk as my main source of information. I also only read English written sources, the occasional French. I do make an effort to put myself in another's viewpoint my reading media from their perspective, thus, I think, giving me an overall veiw of perceptions and finding, hopefully, the truth in article being reported.

'There's also a natural tendency to sympathize with the side that appears weak, whether that side is right or wrong. It's easy to focus on individual hardships of the "weak" Palestinians in the media. It's harder to portray Israel as the weak party, an isolated country in a hostile sea of bigotry bent on destroying it.'

Yup, I do have a natural tendency to side with the underdog - I think this is perhaps a national trait in the UK.

'When an individual has been brainwashed in this way, he's not going to let go of his formed opinion easily. If he has an interest in the subject he will research it and latch on to every piece of confirming evidence he can find, whether right or wrong. That's how anti-Semitic viewpoints can be adopted without the individual being aware that he is espousing anti-Semitism.'

Perhaps I was brainwashed early on in my life, but having travelled a log, met lots of people from lots of different backgrounds while travelling through life in general, I think my initial brainwashing has been eradicated.

'Very few people are self confident enough to question their own beliefs, to seek out contrary information, and to change their opinion. This is true about most of us.'

This is what i try and do, and one way of doing this is to 'enter the lions den' and gather information from those dens (hope this metaphor has not offended as well).

Regs, Shaggy.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (26) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement