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The word "Atheist" was first used to describe theists that went against the doctrine of the day. These accused persons were actually theists that disagreed with the standard beliefs of the church.

At the time, there were no individuals that proclaimed ignorance to the belief in a god. It simply meant that the accused did not believe the theism of the day.

The word Atheist was a slur in other words. It meant that those who had earned its moniker were evil and had forsaken the truth knowingly.

The modern use, while having been hijacked from the original meaning, has been redefined by its claimants to mean A (not) theists (believers).

An atheist might tell you that there is no god, but they can't prove it. It is impossible to do so. These are the cheerleaders that scream that their side is best no matter what the scoreboard says.

You can't possibly judge all atheists by the few that have determined, against all scientific reason, that there could be no god.

The existence of a creator god is simply not a scientific concept. It is not falsifiable, therefore, not scientific. If there is no means to disprove a theory, then it is not a scientific theory.

I may propose that there is an invisible dragon in my garage that can't be sensed by any method available to modern technology, and could never be proven wrong. I would then be allowed to believe in my invisible dragon for the rest of my life without any real argument against my chosen belief. You, I'm assuming, would be atheistic with regard to my invisible dragon, but that doesn't mean that you could say with any scientific conviction that it doesn't exist.

But if you took it upon yourself to argue that I am wrong and that there is certainly no invisible dragon in my garage, I would have to say that you are making a statement that couldn't be supported.

And I would be correct.

k
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I prefer "heathen" to describe the faithless. ;-)
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:)

k
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sorry..your argument is flawed in at least six ways.


1) You never have to disprove a negative. It is up to the person 'claiming' something to prove it, not to someone who does not accept your hypothesis to 'disprove it'. Major fail on your part.


2) You forgot that for a 'believer' , there is the problem , that if they 'accept' that there is at least one godthingie or super-natural being, that there may be hundreds or thousands of them. History clearly shows us that man has been deceived by over 1500 godthingies.....from Wodin to all the Greek and Roman and Egyptian godthingies just to start, each with their own unique super powers and flaws....and of course, the wars and jealously between all the godthingies and between all the 'followers' of godthingies. They sure are a jealous bunch. it's all 'me me me me'.....

3) Atheism is having no deception about fantasizing about godthingies. It is not a 'negative belief'.....and more than you go around telling everyone, hey, I don't have AIDS, cancer, leukemia, brain rot, Alzheimers, and list all known diseases and illnesses. It is like being 'healthy' instead of 'sick'.


If religion gives you the 'crutch' to get through life, so be it. Meanwhile, most Americans now rate religion 10 steps below American Idol for actual meaning in their lives.


t.
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The word "Atheist" was first used to describe theists that went against the doctrine of the day. These accused persons were actually theists that disagreed with the standard beliefs of the church.

At the time, there were no individuals that proclaimed ignorance to the belief in a god. It simply meant that the accused did not believe the theism of the day.

The word Atheist was a slur in other words. It meant that those who had earned its moniker were evil and had forsaken the truth knowingly.

The modern use, while having been hijacked from the original meaning, has been redefined by its claimants to mean A (not) theists (believers).

An atheist might tell you that there is no god, but they can't prove it. It is impossible to do so. These are the cheerleaders that scream that their side is best no matter what the scoreboard says.
---------------------------------------------------
Who gives a rats ass.
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"Who gives a rats ass." - 2828


Obviously some people find the study of theology interesting. One of my nieces has a Masters Degree in Religion and works in a High School Library in Memphis. She is working on a second Masters Degree in Theology so she can be a Theological Librarian. She did some internships at a couple of Theological libraries in Texas (University of Texas Austin and Harding University Graduate School in Memphis) and liked the atmosphere of them and so in order to work in one day she has to have a Masters degree in Theology. I didn't realize she was so religious but I talked to her mother (wife's sister) and she told me that this niece is very religious.

Strange but true.

Art
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"Who gives a rats ass. " - 2828


Oh by the way, that's how I feel about the largest percentage of ya'll's political discussions.

Art
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"Who gives a rats ass." - 2828


Obviously some people find the study of theology interesting.
--------------------------------------------------------
With all due respect, he wasn't discussing theology as much as trying to get a dig in to religious people by referencing the invisible dragon in the garage. I'm not religious so i don't really care, but to say he wanted to discuss theology is flipposterous.
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Oh by the way, that's how I feel about the largest percentage of ya'll's political discussions.

Art
------------------------------------
True, but alot more people want to discuss politics than whether there is a God or not, especially when getting baited by a retarded PA regular.
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True, but a lot more people want to discuss politics than whether there is a God or not, especially when getting baited by a retarded PA regular.
__________________________

The mixture of subtlety and nuance was extraordinary, well played!!
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Oh by the way, that's how I feel about the largest percentage of ya'll's political discussions.

Solution:

1. Use thread ignore

2. Don't reply to political posts, that shows you really do care.
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"True, but alot more people want to discuss politics than whether there is a God or not, especially when getting baited by a retarded PA regular." - 2828

---------------

I get accused a lot of being redundant and repetitious. That is exactly how I feel about almost all political posts. It's the same old stuff repeated over and over and over again. I'm amazed that ya'll never seem to get tired of it. It's like a chant.

Art
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Josh replies, "Solution:

1. Use thread ignore

2. Don't reply to political posts, that shows you really do care."
------------------------------------



"I got nowhere else to go! I got nowhere else to go!" - Zach Mayo, An Officer And A Gentleman



Art
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"True, but alot more people want to discuss politics than whether there is a God or not, especially when getting baited by a retarded PA regular." - 2828

---------------

I get accused a lot of being redundant and repetitious. That is exactly how I feel about almost all political posts. It's the same old stuff repeated over and over and over again. I'm amazed that ya'll never seem to get tired of it. It's like a chant.

Art
--------------
fleg went cold squirrel so maybe i'll get burned out too eventually. I came to being interested in politics relatively recently, probably 1995ish. The thing with politics is there's something new every day. With Atheism/God it's literally the same exact thing every day except the atheists change God every once in awhile from a spaghetti monster to an invisible dragon or something else.
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Art wrote: It's the same old stuff repeated over and over and over again. I'm amazed that ya'll never seem to get tired of it. It's like a chant.

?!
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"The thing with politics is there's something new every day. With Atheism/God it's literally the same exact thing every day except the atheists change God every once in awhile from a spaghetti monster to an invisible dragon or something else." - 2828

----------------


To me politics is the same old thing. Same old duality and separation. Same old arguing and insinuation. I've been alive since 1953 and the Pendulum has swung back and forth pretty much non-stop since I was born, and probably way before that.

And I don't think my belief system is the same old thing, it's a new and refreshing matrix of Taoism, Spirituality, NDE's, Death Bed Visions, the Holographic Universe theory, Quantum Physics, and Christianity.

Art
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sorry..your argument is flawed in at least six ways.
tele

>>>>>>>>>>

I don't know, it sounds rational to me. If I say I believe there is a God and someone says, no there is not, then it's up to them to prove it. I can say I can't prove there is a God, but I believe there is one. No one can invalidate that. Same with the no God statement.

I don't like militant anything...if someone is beating me over the head for my beliefs I just wonder why they are doing so, it does no good, just wasted breath.

Religion, sex and politics....they are very emotional and sensitive topics to most people and a sad way to lose friendships. I know because of friends, gay friends who beat me over the head about politics in 1992.

LuckyDog
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Art, I don't think you know your yin from your yang.
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"I get accused a lot of being redundant and repetitious. That is exactly how I feel about almost all political posts. It's the same old stuff repeated over and over and over again. I'm amazed that ya'll never seem to get tired of it. It's like a chant.

Art "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your posts are not redundant or repetitious.
Political posts come in different shapes and sizes - and as such
they may or may not be repetitive. Government action and political
points of view on government actions influence folk's lives.

Admittedly not as much as the political folks imagine - and not
as much as the folks living in the Washington,DC area think.

Howie52
Who still believes that folks living in the Washington, DC area do
- on rare occasions - still think.
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if someone is beating me over the head for my beliefs I just wonder why they are doing so, it does no good, just wasted breath.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion, still.
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"Art, I don't think you know your yin from your yang." - Josh


Uh? I've been married for 39 years? I'm pretty sure I know my Yin from my Yang. If I didn't I'm pretty sure my wife would have let me know if I'd been getting it wrong for all these years.

Art
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"Your posts are not redundant or repetitious. Political posts come in different shapes and sizes - and as such they may or may not be repetitive. Government action and political points of view on government actions influence folk's lives. Admittedly not as much as the political folks imagine - and not as much as the folks living in the Washington,DC area think." - Howie52, Who still believes that folks living in the Washington, DC area do - on rare occasions - still think."
----------------------------


As far as I know no Politician or Higher Up has ever written me a letter or called me and asked me for my help on solving any of the world's problems. They don't give a rat's ass what I think or believe.

I was born in 1953 and am soon to turn 60 years old. I have lived through Republican administrations and Democrat administrations. The pendulum swings back and forth and I'm fairly certain will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

All I got to do is live in this world kiddo, and "so far so good."

Art
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sorry..your argument is flawed in at least six ways.

I'm not arguing. I'm stating facts.

1) You never have to disprove a negative. It is up to the person 'claiming' something to prove it, not to someone who does not accept your hypothesis to 'disprove it'. Major fail on your part.

So you have evidence that there is no god?


2) You forgot that for a 'believer' , there is the problem , that if they 'accept' that there is at least one godthingie or super-natural being, that there may be hundreds or thousands of them. History clearly shows us that man has been deceived by over 1500 godthingies.....from Wodin to all the Greek and Roman and Egyptian godthingies just to start, each with their own unique super powers and flaws....and of course, the wars and jealously between all the godthingies and between all the 'followers' of godthingies. They sure are a jealous bunch. it's all 'me me me me'.....

I didn't forget anything. I merely stated that the statement "there is no god" cannot be supported.

3) Atheism is having no deception about fantasizing about godthingies. It is not a 'negative belief'.....and more than you go around telling everyone, hey, I don't have AIDS, cancer, leukemia, brain rot, Alzheimers, and list all known diseases and illnesses. It is like being 'healthy' instead of 'sick'.

As I said, atheism is the absence of belief in a god. The positive statement "there is no god" is as unsupportable as is the statement "there is no ice cream factory in the center of the galaxy". Having never been there, I couldn't say. I have no belief that there is, but I can't say for certain that there isn't. Can you?


If religion gives you the 'crutch' to get through life, so be it. Meanwhile, most Americans now rate religion 10 steps below American Idol for actual meaning in their lives.


I am an atheist. I don't have the advantage of the crutch you describe. What in the world gave you the impression that I did?

k
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Who gives a rats ass.

I assume you meant to say that no one cares about the definition of atheism. Or, perhaps you were asking me to name everyone that does care about the definition of atheism?

In the first case, you are wrong. In the second, I can't.

k
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to say he wanted to discuss theology is flipposterous.

Correct! Clarifying the definition of a word has nothing to do with theology.

k
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True, but alot more people want to discuss politics than whether there is a God or not, especially when getting baited by a retarded PA regular.

PA regular? Who would that be?

k
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With Atheism/God it's literally the same exact thing every day except the atheists change God every once in awhile from a spaghetti monster to an invisible dragon or something else.

Just FYI the invisible dragon predated the flying spaghetti monster. I still don't understand why it changed.

k
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"I am an atheist. I don't have the advantage of the crutch you describe. What in the world gave you the impression that I did?" - khalou
-----------


Labels are fun and interesting aren't they? Do you really think it matters how we label ourselves? I'm fairly certain it's irrelevant.

"Resistance is futile."

Art
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Labels are fun and interesting aren't they? Do you really think it matters how we label ourselves? I'm fairly certain it's irrelevant.

"Resistance is futile."

Art

>>>>>>>>

My name is LuckyDog and I think it's important on here that no-one confuses me with BoogerHoofy. :)
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khalou:"I'm not arguing. I'm stating facts."

No...you aren't. And you are not the least bit informed about 'debate' either.

----

khalou:"So you have evidence that there is no god?"

I'm about to have to say you have no reading comprehension skills. Did you manage to get through high school without them.

For the second time, in a debate, it up to the person putting forth a hypothesis to prive it, not ask the other party to 'disprove it'.

If someone is a theist...it is up to them to PROVE there exist godthingies.

-------
.

khalou" I merely stated that the statement "there is no god" cannot be supported."

It's not up to me to support it. IF you state there is a godthingie, it is up to YOU to prove it, not for me to disprove it.

Rule of debate #1...

-------




khalou"As I said, atheism is the absence of belief in a god. "

That might be your 'definition' you'd like to impose, but it is not the correct definition.

Atheism is not being deceived by tales of godthingies and the fantasies associated with them. Those stories are great fiction, nothing else.


YOu flunk debate class once again.


-------


khalou: The positive statement "there is no god" is as unsupportable as is the statement "there is no ice cream factory in the center of the galaxy"."

Unsupportable? back to grade school for you once again. In a debate, you never have to 'disprove' anything. If you suggest there is an ice cream factory in the center of the galaxy, it is up to you to prove it. Not for me to 'disprove it'.

You flunk 'debate class' once again, not knowing the basic rules.

-------



khalou" Having never been there, I couldn't say."

Then you would be mighty stupid to propose that. Just like folks who insist upon godthingies are.

--------


khalou I have no belief that there is, but I can't say for certain that there isn't. Can you?"


I don't have to. It is solely up to the person who makes the hypothesis to put forth the facts for his position. Not for you or me to disprove it.

--------


t
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"I am an atheist. I don't have the advantage of the crutch you describe.

You prefer the crutch of government.
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khalou"As I said, atheism is the absence of belief in a god. "
----
That might be your 'definition' you'd like to impose, but it is not the correct definition.




It is the correct definition. You don't know what you're talking about. Dictionaries are being updated from the false definition commonly quoted.
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""I am an atheist. I don't have the advantage of the crutch you describe.

folowed by:

"You prefer the crutch of government. "

---

Most atheists prefer the least amount of government intrusion into our lives. We value our freedoms.

We can think for ourselves. We don't need a nanny state for a government or a 'nanny state' for a parallel 'religious state' ala 'the church'.

We don't need anyone telling us 'what to do' and 'when to do it' and 'how to do it'.


t.
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Most atheists prefer the least amount of government intrusion into our lives. We value our freedoms.

Nonsense, atheists are as smart and as stupid as anyone else.

We can think for ourselves. We don't need a nanny state for a government or a 'nanny state' for a parallel 'religious state' ala 'the church'.

Nonsense, atheists are as smart and as stupid as anyone else. Lots of religious folks do not follow any church, lots of atheists formalized socialism and banned religion. As smart and as dumb as anyone else

We don't need anyone telling us 'what to do' and 'when to do it' and 'how to do it'.

Lots of religious folks have problems with projection as do lot of atheists, just like everyone else

Atheists, they like to feel they are better than other folks due to what they believe, just like everyone else
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Atheists, they like to feel they are better than other folks due to what they believe, just like everyone else


When christians claim that atheists ignore the evidence for god, atheists point out that the evidence is lacking. I guess you could say that we try to have higher standards for evidence. Christians seem to think that asking questions constitutes evidence, such as "how could the universe form without God?". Atheists realize that such questions are not evidence at all. Only answers are evidence. There will always be questions, and their existence is not evidence for or against anything.
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When christians claim that atheists ignore the evidence for god, atheists point out that the evidence is lacking. I guess you could say that we try to have higher standards for evidence. Christians seem to think that asking questions constitutes evidence, such as "how could the universe form without God?". Atheists realize that such questions are not evidence at all. Only answers are evidence. There will always be questions, and their existence is not evidence for or against anything.
__________________

the fact that one believe something comes from nothing and the other believes everything comes from God are just different ways of saying I have no friggin clue.

But if you want to feel you are better than other people knock yourself out. In your case the evidence is so overwhelmingly to the contrary that there is no real reason to make an argument here.
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hey tele, I'm know you are the exception the rule but I have found that alot of the posters on the PA Board also post to the Atheists Board. So, I tend to lump them all together.

LD
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the fact that one believe something comes from nothing and the other believes everything comes from God are just different ways of saying I have no friggin clue.



Atheists do not claim that something comes from nothing.
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I've never seen a rat's ass. They seem popular though.
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As someone who believes in some form of Almighty, but has NO idea which God or what religion I belong to......


To me Atheism is merely not believing in God or a supreme being. Period.

I think there's plenty of fine people who are Atheist.

Then there's the perverse form of Atheism. Liberals who use it as part of their "identity", and then use that identity to nonstop bash Christianity all day long. (There's a board on TMF dedicated to that). But for bombs, there's little difference between those perverse fake Atheists, and Mullah Omar and Mohammed Atta.

Militant Atheists want to remove 'In God We Trust', no different than Taliban removing Buddha statues. They are one in the same.

Militant TMF Atheist Fools, Jerry Falwell Types, Talibans, why don't y'all go on a cruise together and cut each other down there and leave the rest of us along to worship or not worship as we please.

Jedi
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Atheists do not claim that something comes from nothing.
_______________________________


What a stupid claim.

Just as God is what was and what shall always be, the universe or the big bang or whatever is the same thing

Something is here and was always here, or something came from nothing. It is the same thing, and only a moron caught up on semantics would miss that.
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Jedi:"To me Atheism is merely not believing in God or a supreme being. Period."



Ah...but in that 'definition' you 'admit' or 'imply' there is a godthingie, right?

A true atheist would never say that. YOu can't 'believe' in what does not exist. You can only play make believe if you are a 'believer'.


That definition of yours would have to include in 'gods' and 'godthingies' since we know that history shows THOUSANDS of godthingies that humans have groveled to over the past 10,000 years. If you are a believer, you can't just 'believe' in one.



------






Kedo" Militant Atheists want to remove 'In God We Trust', no different than Taliban removing Buddha statues. They are one in the same."

Why should folks have to carry around religious advertising jingles on the money supply? We don't sell out to Coke or Pepsi or Fritos, do we? There is no reason to select one godthingie to advertise and no reason that the 'jingle' should be there.

You don't have to be a militant atheist. I'm sure the muslims here would rather have the jingle read 'there is only one true godthingie and its name is Allah!'.....when they get to be a majority, they'll probably do it. No wait..they don't do religious jingles. They just chop off your head if you don't grovel to their godthingie!...


--------

t
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That definition of yours would have to include in 'gods' and 'godthingies' since we know that history shows THOUSANDS of godthingies that humans have groveled to over the past 10,000 years. If you are a believer, you can't just 'believe' in one.
________________________

Tele, seriously. do you realize how silly that is?

Humans throughout history have believed in many things that were wrong, and have believed in many things in which their beliefs evolved.

Your reasoning here is kind of silly.
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"Humans throughout history have believed in many things that were wrong, and have believed in many things in which their beliefs evolved. "


SO that is why , after so much evolving, there are still 3 major religions on the planet, and another 100 minor ones?

heh heh....


No...it's just as divided as ever.....and I'm sure in lots of backwoods places in the Caribbean they still are doing VooDoo...and all over AFrica they are as superstitious as they always have been. My niece can tell you all sorts of stories from her village in Togo. The self appointed 'priests' were always conning the folks into superstitions and against 'main stream' religions......

If you look at the history of 'relgion' , it was mainly who was in power at any given time. One week Norway was bowing to Wodin. Next week after the leader got 'converted' the whole country had to go that way. Church of England? That happened since the king got ticked off at the Holey Roaming Church in Rome.....

You want kings and bishops and the arch types and 100 other little helper beings, both real and imagined? yep, xtians...and they come in 100 different flavors from orthodox to reformed to not reformed.

Druids? We still got them.

Evolved? That's lunacy.

And don't tell the Romans and Greeks they were 'wrong'. They were just as 'right' as xtians or muslims or any other flavor of religion is today! It's all make believe!.


t.
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Something is here and was always here, or something came from nothing.




Both statements are false. Both theory and observation are consistent with the sum total of energy in the universe being zero; therefore there is no 'something'.


As you are no doubt aware, mass and energy are interchangeable. The stars/planets/people that you perceive as 'something' is offset by the negative energy of gravity. When you add it all up, you get zero.


Not liking the facts doesn't change them.
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Rat's asses come in a wide variety. Here's just one.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=rat%27s+ass&hl=en&cli...
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That definition of yours would have to include in 'gods' and 'godthingies' since we know that history shows THOUSANDS of godthingies that humans have groveled to over the past 10,000 years. If you are a believer, you can't just 'believe' in one.

Your reasoning here is kind of silly.

Atheists don't care how silly their belief/nonbelief is.

It's simply not plausible that the universe appeared out of nowhere/nothing. The chances of that happening, what with the magnificence of the universe and everything in it, is practically nill. But that's what atheists believe.

It's far more plausible that a Creator actually did create the magnificence we see before us. Otherwise, an atheist must believe that nothing that exists has any significance whatsoever.

Why they don't off themselves in droves in utter hopelessness is a mystery to me.
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It's simply not plausible that the universe appeared out of nowhere/nothing. The chances of that happening, what with the magnificence of the universe and everything in it, is practically nill. But that's what atheists believe.
_______________________________----

I happen to feel as you do. I do not pretend however that there is an irrefutable logic to it.

It is beyond my understanding that from nothing came something. I attribute it to a being, I call it God. Someone like Tele believes it always was and believes it is not from a being.

He is sure he is right beyond a shadow of a doubt and believes he does not have faith in something beyond what he knows.

People are funny. Whatever gets each of is through the night. The only one that actually makes sense is Art, each of us actually has no options and we believe something for no actual reason and get experience to reach some state we could have been started at without the help of experience but somehow need it to get there. It sounds odd to me, but it makes sense since we can do almost anything and argue any point and we really had no choice we were programmed that way.

It is interesting to get folks views on it. Of course out of those views, only Catherine's really matters as she believes her actions impact her future where no one else carries that belief. tele is convinced that folks who believe in God are stealing his lunch money but so are folks who do not believe in God so it's really a push, and Art well, he is concerned that there will be no Ramen Noodles for lunch.
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CC "It's simply not plausible that the universe appeared out of nowhere/nothing. The chances of that happening, what with the magnificence of the universe and everything in it, is practically nill. But that's what atheists believe."


really? then where did the godthingies come from? YOu take it back one step futher. You can't imagine a universe where it just started. You invent godthingies that 'magically appeared' out of nowhere.

And no, atheist don't 'believe' as in make believe. Only theists do.

The probability that godthingies appeared out of nowhere/nothing is NIL.

I can see the universe. It's there for anyone to see.

You realize every time it snows, trillions of perfectly DIFFERENT snowflakes 'magically appear' with complex patterns, supposedly no two the same. Do you really think(believe) there is a 'creator' of snow flakes that magically takes water and forms extremely complicated patterns for all of them? The billions and trillions and quadrillions that have fallen over time!....


-------

CC:"It's far more plausible that a Creator actually did create the magnificence we see before us. Otherwise, an atheist must believe that nothing that exists has any significance whatsoever."

It is far more plausible for you to imagine that something created the godthingies - all of them over history....... hah..not.....

So, please tell me, where did your godthingies come from? out of nowhere?

That is likely the place the universe itself came from and we can eliminate the extra step of coming up with fictional characters you can't see, smell, touch, observe, etc.

-----



CC"Why they don't off themselves in droves in utter hopelessness is a mystery to me. "

Easy. Because we aren't deceived by false and wrong thinking. We don't suffer religious 'guilt trips' imposed upon the believers. We don't feel obligated to cough up 10% of our income to pay the salaries of the corrupt priesthood to abuse little boys.




t.
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It's far more plausible that a Creator actually did create the magnificence we see before us. Otherwise, an atheist must believe that nothing that exists has any significance whatsoever.

Who created the Creator?
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"SO that is why , after so much evolving, there are still 3 major religions on the planet, and another 100 minor ones?" - tele
----------------------------


Isn't it amazing how effective this debate is in causing separation?

Which is the whole point. Ya'll are going to be so surprised.

Art
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"Why they don't off themselves in droves in utter hopelessness is a mystery to me." - Catherine
--------------

No need to. Wait around long enough and the Universe will do it for them. 100% guaranteed.


Art
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"Which is the whole point. Ya'll are going to be so surprised. "

Maybe so....but then again, you have to 'invent' your gatekeeper fantasy to make most religions work. Otherwise, there is no reason to grovel other than they'll chop off your head if you don't show up at the mosque each week on Friday.

If there is an afterlife....and I don't accept that...everyone goes there, and we all sit around drinking beer, eating great food, burping, playing accordions, and recorders......hiking in the mountains, skiing, doing ham radio , reading....and everyone looks like they are 21 years old, and they don't mind the 2 billion screaming babies that never got potty trained on earth.



t.
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And don't tell the Romans and Greeks they were 'wrong'. They were just as 'right' as xtians or muslims or any other flavor of religion is today! It's all make believe!.
_____________________________________

Make believe?

It is an attempt to make logic of stuff there is no logical explanation of.

Someone fits the pieces together and comes to a different conclusion.

I know you are right, how could anyone be so stupid as not to see it. No one can explain it, so it can't be true.

Same situation existed for a long time with a lot of stuff with a lot of wrong and alternate theories with lots of them having some kernel that was part of the solution eventually but laughably wrong.

Your 'proof; that you are right is nothing but sour grapes. Sorry it is what it is. At the end of the day there was something else and we apparently came from that. You have it out for someone so you lash out at priests or whatever. Enjoy, but I don't have to tell you that you obviously do in your own seemingly bitter way.

Note I am not saying you are wrong, nor am I saying anyone else is wrong. Has lots of harm been done through religion? Sure -- lots of harm has been done in a million different ways -- religion is your boogey man. Has lots of good been done through religion? Sure.

You offer no more proof of no God than folks do of God. You can rail against religion all you want. That seems kind of stupid to me personally, it is like railing against government there have been all kinds of bad government.

Religion is more a societal structure than anything else if you look at it in total. The kind you hate is nationalistic in essence. Religion is humanity, if God did not exist man would have to create him, is one of the trues statements out there. You blame religion on a belief in God, Socialism, Communism, mad made global warming the bastardized version of Keynsian economics one sees on PA, there are all kinds of harmful wrong belief systems that do not require God.

Has someone out there actually hit on what the creator wanted of us? Maybe. Can I swear who it is? Not me, but I see a set of beliefs out there that if folks lived would work pretty good IMO.

Is there no creator? Nope there is a creator even if it was a benign big bang or whatever formed that big bang. Everything started somewhere. Was it with 'someone'? I do not know. Will I ever understand it? I doubt it. DO I strive to? Not really, but it brings happiness to some folks so I am OK with it.
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It's simply not plausible that the universe appeared out of nowhere/nothing. But that's what atheists believe.



You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "plausible".
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I heard there were no Denny's, Waffle House's, pizza or Chinese joints or any other cheap places to eat in heaven.

:)
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really? then where did the godthingies come from? You take it back one step futher. You can't imagine a universe where it just started. You invent godthingies that 'magically appeared' out of nowhere.

The intellectual problem is that humans live in time and, as such, we can't imagine the universe without time.

And it isn't just the start of the universe but the very magnificence of it. Try YouTube's many videos to peer more deeply into the unique and truly awesome intricacies of the universe and try to tell me "that just happened."

Hummingbirds: Magic in the Air
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXNVtKqJxPU
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It's far more plausible that a Creator actually did create the magnificence we see before us. Otherwise, an atheist must believe that nothing that exists has any significance whatsoever.

Who created the Creator?

Oh, I agree it's a conundrum. There's no doubt about that, but if you take time out of the equation, you can understand that it's not necessary for the Creator to have begun.
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Isn't it amazing how effective this debate is in causing separation? Which is the whole point. Ya'll are going to be so surprised.

I think it is you who will be surprised.
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FMNH wrote: You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "plausible".

I bet you get smacked in the face at least once a week.

plausible = probable - likely - credible - believable - possible
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"The only one that actually makes sense is Art, ...<snip>... and Art well, he is concerned that there will be no Ramen Noodles for lunch." - lowstudent


I was given a gift. I don't know "why me" and why I was given the answers to some of life's most profound questions, but for some reason all the pieces of the puzzle, from me taking 30 graduate semester hours in Holistic Teaching and Learning and learning about the holographic universe theory and the connection to near death experiences all came together and one day when I was walking from our kitchen into our dining room it was like a lightbulb going off in my head and all the pieces of the puzzle coalesced and I knew why we suffered and why we experience so much separation in life and even why we are here.

There are just things the soul can learn here that can't be learned in Heaven and have to be experienced in order to be understood sort of in the same way that you can't learn to drive a car or ride a bike simply by reading a manual. In order to drive a car you have to get in the car and drive it or in order to learn to ride a bike you have to get on the bike and ride it. There is no other way to learn what it is we need to learn.

It all has to do with the way that the Physics of Heaven differs from the physics of this side. The things that we experience here that don't really exist in heaven, like separation, time and space, and pain and suffering. The only stuff that exists in heaven are the things that have first been thought of and it has to do with that "thoughts are things and consciousness creating reality" thing. It has to do with matter being an epiphenomena of consciousness. Consciousness being primary and matter being secondary. That is what you will experience after your physical body dies and your soul/consciousness crosses over to the other side.

We are simply spiritual beings having a physical experience. Learning what it means to be separate, what time and space looks and feels like, and make memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe.

And that is what I believe is the truth.

Art
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I was given a gift. I don't know "why me" and why I was given the answers to some of life's most profound questions

Fun-neee.
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"If there is an afterlife....and I don't accept that...everyone goes there, and we all sit around drinking beer, eating great food, burping, playing accordions, and recorders......hiking in the mountains, skiing, doing ham radio , reading....and everyone looks like they are 21 years old, and they don't mind the 2 billion screaming babies that never got potty trained on earth." - tele


Actually a few years back I had a dream where my dad was sitting on a stool in this brightly lit white room. In the dream I walked up to my dad, who died at age 65 of cardiomyopathy, and I said to him "Gee Dad, you look great!" He replied to me, "Guess what Artie! I'm 28!"

When I went to my dad's funeral his skin was blue in the coffin. He was put in a nursing home a few months after his stroke because he started peeing all over himself and the floor and my stepmother couldn't/wouldn't take care of him and in the nursing home he got pneumonia and died soon after.

So at the funeral he was really thin and "blue" in the coffin and he looked rough. I think my Dad was letting me know that he had been healed and that he wasn't 65 and sick anymore but instead he was 28 years old where he was in great shape and felt good.

And as far as the screaming babies? If you understood the holographic universe theory and what it means you'd know that what one person knows in heaven we will all know so there won't be any dichotomy as far as age goes. We will all be equal. All information will be shared. It's a holographic universe thing.

No old people, no young people, no male, no female, just pure consciousness occupying whatever body they might wish to think themselves into. Heaven is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality.

All the duality we experience in this life won't exist in the next. Duality and separation are "here" things and not "there" things - and it's a by-product of the holographic nature of Heaven.

Art
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well I just sent off an email to water line guy telling him I have an appt and jury duty starting at the end of the wk and I can't cancel either one so I need to know when he will do it this wk.
I reckon if he says he can't do it this wk, I'm back to square one.

In the afterlife, there will be no water leaks and I won't be scouting out bathrooms everywhere I go either......endless walks with my doggies. :)

LD
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plausible = probable - likely - credible - believable - possible



You didn't explain how you calculated the plausibility. Sounds like you just made it up.
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"And don't tell the Romans and Greeks they were 'wrong'. They were just as 'right' as xtians or muslims or any other flavor of religion is today! It's all make believe!."- tele
----------------------------------
Make believe? It is an attempt to make logic of stuff there is no logical explanation of. Someone fits the pieces together and comes to a different conclusion." - lowstudent

------------------------------


All religions evolved out of near death experiences, death bed visions, mystical and transcendental experiences, and hallucinogenic - psyllocybin mushroom - ergot from rye experiences.

Near Death experiences are nothing new. Plato talked about one in his book "The Republic" about a soldier "Er" who had been dead for 10 days and then woke up talking about where he had been and what he had been and what he saw. It was a typical NDE experience.

Religions have a kernel of truth to them that became highly embellished and out of sequence and what we see two thousand years later is this religion that if you look between the lines that original story is still there.

Art
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"I heard there were no Denny's, Waffle House's, pizza or Chinese joints or any other cheap places to eat in heaven." - luckydog
------------------------


You don't need money in heaven. A number of years ago I had a dream and in this dream I was in school and there was this cyclone fence and I climbed through a hole in the bottom of the fence and there was this bright green grass and a hill and at the bottom of the hill there was a rode and on the other side of the rode was an ice cream stand. I went into the ice cream stand and I was going to buy some ice cream and reached into my back pants pocket to get out my wallet only I didn't have my wallet. So I told the kid there that didn't have my wallet and I needed to go back and get it.

The kid replied, "Oh, you don't need a wallet or money here."

The spirits on the other side were giving me a heads up that on the other side, no wallets and no money are needed.

Art
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"The intellectual problem is that humans live in time and, as such, we can't imagine the universe without time." - catherine
----------------------------------


Exactly. All these atheists are stuck thinking with Newtonian Physics and three dimensionally. They need to move into the 21st Century and start thinking quantum physics and multi dimensionally. "Everything we call real is made out of stuff that can't be considered as real" - Niels Bohr


"I was told that before we're born, we have to take an oath that we will pretend time and space are real so we can come here and advance our spirit. If you don't promise, you can't be born." (from Jeanie Dicus' near-death experience, 1974)

"Space and time are illusions that hold us to our physical realm; out there all is present simultaneously." (from Beverly Brodsky's near-death experience, 1970)

"During this experience, time had no meaning. Time was an irrelevant notion. It felt like eternity. I felt like I was there an eternity." (from Grace Bubulka's near-death experience, 1988?)

"I didn't know if I had been in that light for a minute of a day or a hundred years." (from Jayne Smith's near-death experience, 1965?)

"Earthly time had no meaning for me anymore. There was no concept of "before" or "after." Everything - past, present, future - existed simultaneously." (from Kimberly Sharp's near-death experience, date unknown)

"Time could also be contracted, I found. Centuries would condense into seconds. Millenniums would shrink into moments. The entire civilization that I was part of passed by in the blink of an eye." (from John Star's near-death experience, date unknown)

Art
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"It's far more plausible that a Creator actually did create the magnificence we see before us. Otherwise, an atheist must believe that nothing that exists has any significance whatsoever.

Who created the Creator?

Oh, I agree it's a conundrum. There's no doubt about that, but if you take time out of the equation, you can understand that it's not necessary for the Creator to have begun."- catherine

------------------------------------------


We are not separate from God. We and the Creator are One. It's a holographic universe thing. Ya'll keep thinking so separately. You've got to let that go.

"And it became very clear to me that all the Higher Selves are connected as one being, all humans are connected as one being, we are actually the same being, different aspects of the same being." from Mellen Benedict's NDE,
http://near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html

"I remember understanding the others here.. as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was .. gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were all the same. As if consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body." - excerpt from Michelle M's NDE, http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/michelle_m%27s_nd...

excerpt from Randy Gehling's (age 10) NDE:
"That was really cool! I kind of felt as though my body exploded - in a nice way - and became a million different atoms - and each single atom could think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. All at once I seemed to feel like I was a boy, a girl, a dog, a cat, a fish. Then I felt like I was an old man, an old woman - and then a little tiny baby."
http://near-death.com/experiences/animals04.html

Art
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"I think it is you who will be surprised." - Catherine


Catherine I know more about your bible and religion than you do.

Art
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"Fun-neee." - Catherine


Catherine I had a profound and deep mystical experience and I was given a gift. I'm sorry you don't understand but I'm fairly certain one day you will.

And I believe that you believe the way you do because that is what you are supposed to believe, and your hard headedness exists for the sole purpose of causing lots of duality and separation. You seem to be extremely talented in that direction.

You are who you are and believe what you believe for the same reason that Atheists are who they are and believe what they believe.

Which is to cause duality and separation.

Carry on and keep up the good work.

Art
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"I think it is you who will be surprised." - Catherine


Catherine I know more about your bible and religion than you do.

Art
--------------------------------------------
What's with all this God/Atheist talk? Inall my years the pendulum swings back and forth, God/No God No God/God. It serves no purpose to even bring it up <g>.
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"In the afterlife, there will be no water leaks and I won't be scouting out bathrooms everywhere I go either......endless walks with my doggies. :)" LD
--------------------


And you won't need leashes because you will be able to "talk" to your dogs telepathically.

It's a holographic universe oneness and connectedness thing.

Art
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I think it is you who will be surprised.
_________________________

Unless tele is right, I can guarantee I will be surprised.
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"What's with all this God/Atheist talk? Inall my years the pendulum swings back and forth, God/No God No God/God. It serves no purpose to even bring it up <g>." - 2828
---------------------------


Yes it does. It exists to cause duality and separation.

The exact same reason politics exists.

Art
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"I think it is you who will be surprised." - Catherine
-------------------------------
"Unless tele is right, I can guarantee I will be surprised." - lowstudent

-------------------


The place we call heaven is the original holographic film that our universe is a projection from and the physics of heaven will be the physics that one might expect if one were living in or on that original holographic film.

And what that means is that whatever is "here" must also exist "there", and it means that we get it all back. All the things in this life that we have loved and lost, we get it all back.

Time and space don't exist in heaven so simply by focusing our attention on a thing, person, time, or place we can go back and be there, like we will feel like we are there experiencing everything about it.

And if you were pure consciousness but had never been in a body and had never known what it was like to live in a 3 D + 1 T universe, what it meant to be separate, what time and space looked and felt like, you wouldn't understand or know what you were experiencing - but since you lived this life you will be able to comprehend and feel everything that is happening around you.

excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE:
"Suddenly dusk became full, blazing daylight, except with a brightness brighter than normally associated with daylight... everything was bright as I was lifted (without any feeling or pres- sure) upwards to a high point (I assume, since I was unaware of standing on anything or for that matter aware of any "body" that I had) I was pure intellect, absorbing information and knowledge through "sensors" or means that I have no concept of. From this vantage point, I had to merely think of a place and time and I was there, experiencing everything about the place and time and people present."
http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

Art
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I was given a gift. I don't know "why me" and why I was given the answers to some of life's most profound questions, but for some reason all the pieces of the puzzle, from me taking 30 graduate semester hours in Holistic Teaching and Learning and learning about the holographic universe theory and the connection to near death experiences all came together and one day when I was walking from our kitchen into our dining room it was like a lightbulb going off in my head and all the pieces of the puzzle coalesced and I knew why we suffered and why we experience so much separation in life and even why we are here.
____________________

Hard to say this without being seen as condescending, and trust me please that is not my intent.

Mt friend, he had a conversation with Jesus who talked him down from a bad acid trip.

He was a rather belligerent person up to that point, after he was at peace. He gave up drugs, he actually ended up heading for Oregon and became a lumberjack, he was happy with his family when I lost track of him many years ago.

It all made sense to him, he basically understood he was a vessel for God and lived through him, that was pretty much the gist of it. It didn't help his basketball skills at all though. He had no real use for Priests and religion, but he was good with Jesus and happier than I ever saw him.

Everyone's religion and lack thereof makes sense to them. To some it makes more sense to them than others. I am glad your beliefs bring you comfort and I certainly hope for the benefit of most of us, that you are correct

I will grant that you are a smart fella or as smart as the rest of us, which I think is reasonably intelligent, and that you have given this more thought and study than most. Since I personally think with where we are now you are making a call on the unknowable, I do not know how much that research is worth, but I am rooting for ya(sincerely!) as your vision drags everyone else to a good place, and well you simply can not beat that.
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In the afterlife, there will be no water leaks and I won't be scouting out bathrooms everywhere I go either......endless walks with my doggies. :)
---------------

Oh, gosh. My afterlife will be dulcimer and recorder jams ... maybe combined. I can play whatever instrument I feel like. It's hard to imagine anything better.

arrete
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"I will grant that you are a smart fella or as smart as the rest of us, which I think is reasonably intelligent, and that you have given this more thought and study than most. Since I personally think with where we are now you are making a call on the unknowable, I do not know how much that research is worth, but I am rooting for ya(sincerely!) as your vision drags everyone else to a good place, and well you simply can not beat that." - arrete
-------------------------


Thank you arrete. It's like this, why would this incredibly brilliant and omnipotent creator create a universe where 90%+ of his creation are bound to fail? It makes no sense at all. It's ridiculous.

But a Creator, pure consciousness, that creates a Universe where every soul learns what it's supposed to learn regardless of who they are, or where they live, or what they believe - now that's brilliant!

It's as simple as the soul's lessons being embedded in our everyday lives and it being holistically imprinted with what it came here to learn - even if it doesn't want to.

And that includes Catherine Coy. Catherine experiences duality and separation, time and space, and makes memories of what it was like to inhabit and control a physical body and live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe - even if she doesn't believe it to be true.

What we believe is irrelevant. How we label ourselves is irrelevant. The answer to why we are here is universal. It applies to everyone at every point in time. I even saw a video of a young male chimpanzee that was mourning the loss of it's mother that had died by a stream bank in Jane Goodall's Gombe Stream Reserve. Even that young chimpanzee was experiencing separation; and I guarantee you it was obvious it didn't want to.

Art
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"Oh, gosh. My afterlife will be dulcimer and recorder jams ... maybe combined. I can play whatever instrument I feel like. It's hard to imagine anything better." - arrete
-----------------


And because of that overwhelming connectedness oneness thing you will be able to play any instrument as well as the best player in the whole universe. It's a by product of living in or on the original holographic film. What one knows we will all know.

Mark H Possible NDE 4360
www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE.../mark_h_possible_nde.htm
When I was touched by the light, I knew that it was the great "oneness." All knowledge and experience of every human+ was in that light. After the experience, I

Bob L NDE 3827
www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/bob_l_nde.htm
No No review, but complete knowledge, open access to all knowledge. I knew things I never (in this world) ever knew. Everything was very clear and without ...

Analisa D's NDE
www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE.../Analisa%20D's%20NDE.htm
I was just enthralled and in this state for what felt like a long time and a short time all at once. It were as though all knowledge was being poured through me, that

Art
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As long as I get to be with my little girl, I'm cool.
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"And because of that overwhelming connectedness oneness thing you will be able to play any instrument as well as the best player in the whole universe. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Personally, I think some folks having a particular talent is really
pretty neat. That one person hears one music to be able to compose
one thing and another hears a different drum --- and drummer is a
great part of the joy we can see and hear.

Howie52
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"I will grant that you are a smart fella or as smart as the rest of us, which I think is reasonably intelligent, and that you have given this more thought and study than most. Since I personally think with where we are now you are making a call on the unknowable, I do not know how much that research is worth, but I am rooting for ya(sincerely!) as your vision drags everyone else to a good place, and well you simply can not beat that." - arrete
-------------------------


Thank you arrete. It's like this, why would this incredibly brilliant and omnipotent creator create a universe where 90%+ of his creation are bound to fail? It makes no sense at all. It's ridiculous.
__________________________________

Don't blame Arrete, she has the sense to gt in quick and get out on threads like this<grin>

I do not pretend to know, why would a creator have their creation go through all this suffering at this level to learn something that the creator could have imbued? Damned if I know

Why do folks enjoy a sport where 70 percent failure is huge success? Maybe the creator enjoys the energy created from the challenge. Maybe the creator don't care. I sure do not claim to know the motives. Heck if there is not one it is even more unimportant!

It is hard to really be sure about the motives of other humans, I am not going to make a call on the motives of a god.
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It seems like not everyone's learning opportunity is equal. Varying life spans,.different intellectual capabilities, etc....
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"As long as I get to be with my little girl, I'm cool." - wolverine


Yes you will, and not only will you get to be with her but you will be equal and all the drama that you experience in this life won't exist in the next.

"neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female" in the kingdom of heaven. Galatians 3

Art
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"I do not pretend to know, why would a creator have their creation go through all this suffering at this level to learn something that the creator could have imbued? Damned if I know" - lowstudent


It has to be emotional enough to where we remember it. There is a connection between emotion and memory. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. by the way, when we get to the other side it will seem like it went by in the blink of an eye. - Art

"I felt an understanding about life, what it was, is. As if it was a dream in itself. It's so very hard to explain this part. I'll try, but my words limit the fullness of it. I don't have the words here, but I understood that it really didn't matter what happened in the life experience, I knew/understood that it was intense, brief, but when we were in it, it seemed like forever. I understood that whatever happened in life, I was really ok, and so were the others here."

from Michelle M's NDE,
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/michelle_m%27s_nd...


Art
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"It seems like not everyone's learning opportunity is equal. Varying life spans,.different intellectual capabilities, etc." - wolverine


What have I said about a million times about that connected oneness thing? We don't live for just ourselves and all knowledge is shared on the other side. Remember what Michelle M said about one being? What did Mellen Benedict say about all being connected?

"That was really cool! I kind of felt as though my body exploded - in a nice way - and became a million different atoms - and each single atom could think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. All at once I seemed to feel like I was a boy, a girl, a dog, a cat, a fish. Then I felt like I was an old man, an old woman - and then a little tiny baby."
Randy Gehling, age 10 NDE, http://near-death.com/experiences/animals04.html

It's like you still haven't really understood the implications of the holographic universe? That is why I keep repeating myself.

Art
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Art:

What seems self-evident to you is not so to me.
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"a universe where 90%+ of his creation are bound to fail?"

"Why do folks enjoy a sport where 70 percent failure is huge success? "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can't understand how you see failure by 90% of creation. And
as far as enjoying sports - the joy is in the game and seeing
folks play and extend themselves.
Winning a game or passing a test or inventing a wildly successful
product is a terribly over-rated activity - the time-frame of any
one event is so short. You feel success at best for a limited time
and as you progress you know that future successes come at
ever increasing prices. There is certainly joy in winning - and there
is pain in losing ---- but there is more than that particular joy
or that particular pain.

Howie52
The joy in seeing a son make contact when swinging a bat in Tee-ball
every bit as great as any success I have personally had - and the
pain of leaping up to catch a pass and missing becomes a
wonderfully joyful story well past the pain of a loss is felt.
Even in losing loved ones, we choose the memories we hold
dearest and closest - and we impose our judgement. But that is not
the same as the judgement of the Creator.
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"It seems like not everyone's learning opportunity is equal. Varying life spans,.different intellectual capabilities, etc.... "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some of the reincarnation believers say that folks - souls - keep going
on until they reach a certain level. I can't say that I really believe
that this could be true since we seem to have an ever increasing
number of souls going around.
But I'd imagine that folks - souls - live the life they can - make choices
as situations arise - and deal with the world as they can. I don't
know - but Spiritual issues don't seem to be as much involved with
unequal life spans, intellectual capabilities, status and the like.

We deal with life and each other on one level while our behavior
and beliefs act on another level while our souls may be on an entirely
different plane.

Howie52
One hope there are not too many snakes on that plane.
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Catherine I know more about your bible and religion than you do.

So? You leave out key parts. Majorly key parts...which is inexcusable if you know more about the Bible than any living person.
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I had a profound and deep mystical experience and I was given a gift. I'm sorry you don't understand but I'm fairly certain one day you will. And I believe that you believe the way you do because that is what you are supposed to believe, and your hard headedness exists for the sole purpose of causing lots of duality and separation. You seem to be extremely talented in that direction. You are who you are and believe what you believe for the same reason that Atheists are who they are and believe what they believe. Which is to cause duality and separation.

Whatever.
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And that includes Catherine Coy. Catherine experiences duality and separation, time and space, and makes memories of what it was like to inhabit and control a physical body and live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe - even if she doesn't believe it to be true.

Please leave me out of your fantasy.
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The joy in seeing a son make contact when swinging a bat in Tee-ball
every bit as great as any success I have personally had - and the
pain of leaping up to catch a pass and missing becomes a
wonderfully joyful story well past the pain of a loss is felt.
Even in losing loved ones, we choose the memories we hold
dearest and closest - and we impose our judgement. But that is not
the same as the judgement of the Creator.
______________________________

You got my point and then let it slip right on by

How the heck do you know that? Is it not presumptuous to believe that you know the will of God if you belief he is a being that does care etc.

You may know, you may not. Did man create God or God create man? Either way would indeed make God exist. Either way he woluld have great value to man, but only if man created God would you be likely to know God's motives.

Once you get into thinking you know the will of God, you are in deep grass IMO. You can trust the Bible or the Koran to tell you God's will, of course in a few thousand years people who study it full time still disagree on what it says, so that may not be the cleanest way to be sure.

IMO, at best Christianity says that God is unable to easily communicate with man and that man has great difficulty with his message -- and I favor a belief in the Christian God BTW.

So please check your assumptions before telling me off. BTW I also know why I enjoyed my daughter's less than 30 percent feats from the foul line as a child and why we celebrated effort -- but how do I know that God feels differently about me? I can guess, but danged if I am going to claim to know.
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lowstudent:"Make believe?"

Yes

------

lowstudent:"It is an attempt to make logic of stuff there is no logical explanation of."

Like thunder..they invented Wodin hammering on his shield.....

Like floods and ships lost at sea...they invented Neptune

got it?

they were ignorant.

Same today.

---------

Lowstudent:"Someone fits the pieces together and comes to a different conclusion."

No , usually it's 'there's a void, so let's make up an answer for it'.

-------



lowstudent: Same situation existed for a long time with a lot of stuff with a lot of wrong and alternate theories with lots of them having some kernel that was part of the solution eventually but laughably wrong."

So Neptune had a 'kernel' of truth? Wodin?

-------



lowstudent:"Your 'proof; that you are right is nothing but sour grapes."

You must not have been reading the thread. You never have to disprove a negative in a debate.

------



lowstudent:" At the end of the day there was something else and we apparently came from that."

Really? so you are 'making things up' to explain things? LIke Wodin and Neptune once again?

--------


lowstudents" You have it out for someone so you lash out at priests or whatever. "

The only folks I have it 'out for' are those who wish to shove their religious jingles in front of me all the time, and insist I don't do anything on THEIR 'sabbath day' like not go shopping our eating out. Blue laws, etc...or all the other religious crap they want to lay on us. Like no contraception..... and on from there....

------



lowstudent:"Enjoy, but I don't have to tell you that you obviously do in your own seemingly bitter way."

hee hee...always the theist has to make the atheist out out to be 'unhappy' and 'bitter'...always.....comes with being a theist.

Misery loves company and theists have lots of misery in their lives, trying to do the right kind and often enough groveling to their godthingies. Religion is nothing but a guilt trip.

-------





lowstudent:"You offer no more proof of no God than folks do of God."

Which of the 1500 godthingies you talking about?

And once again, you fail miserably in reading comprehension. You are the one who has to prove their are godthingies. No one can disprove a negative. It's like 'prove there is no green cheese on the moon - anywhere.....

-------



lowstudent:" You can rail against religion all you want. That seems kind of stupid to me personally, it is like railing against government there have been all kinds of bad government."

Yes, and the ones that get tangled with godthingies are the worst ones. Which is why our founding fathers made sure we had to state religion...Guaranteed you can do all the crazy things you like, like kneeling and groveling and drinking blood and eating flesh rituals.....as long as you do it in your homes and godboxes.

I just get upset when theists want to expand it to forcing everyone to carry religious jingles on their money or spends any tax money on anything religious..or gives religious 'entities' tax free status and doesn't charge them real estate taxes.

0-------



lowstudent:"Religion is more a societal structure than anything else if you look at it in total."

Really? A billion plus Chinese don't grovel to godthingies. THey've had a society for 10 times longer than ours. You lose on that argument. Same for the Japanese.

-------



lowstudent:" The kind you hate is nationalistic in essence. Religion is humanity, if God did not exist man would have to create him, is one of the trues statements out there."

Tell that to the Japanese and Chinese.....

That's your limited 'western' idea....once again, a self invented godthingie guilt trip.

-------



lowstudent:"Has someone out there actually hit on what the creator wanted of us? Maybe."


Maybe he , she , or it wanted nothing after , in some fiction tales, to do with humans any more. Seven billion groveling humans all seeking special favors and being saved from their own stupidity over and over again? ya gotta be kidding!....

-------





Yes, folks enjoy fiction and make believe. That doesn't make it real. Heck, some football players have fictional girl friends, too.

SO you've got an invisible, not all that powerful, never seen, heard or otherwise, except in special burning bush specials or on stone tablets just once..... unable to stop 'chariots of iron'.....and just about anything else.....burps and moans and groans.....has hissy fits....friend? ya gotta be kidding.


t.
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"I heard there were no Denny's, Waffle House's, pizza or Chinese joints or any other cheap places to eat in heaven."


Yep, and all the folks who worked at them on earth had to run them and work 40 hours a week up there so others could enjoy them.

But in heaven...there is no beer....that's why we drink it here....



t.
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The standard whine of the theists is 'everything must have a creator'......


Which, of course, begs the question: Then who created the creator?


They simply say 'he, she, it always existed'...

you can just as easily say the universe existed....in some form or other......forever.....

someday we'll figure it out. ANother 20 years and we'll be creating artificial life.....


t.
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" But that is not
the same as the judgement of the Creator. "



Let's see..how many tens of millions of people die each year? There are about 85,000 seconds a year....so when you die, you'll get less than a nanosecond for judgement day? Wow..I'm impressed.....considering they are probably still using quill and parchment in heaven and who knows how big a filing cabinet.....

They've got to be expanding living quarters at an amazing rate to house all the folks, and it is truly a miracle to think of all the food production that has to occur......

unless, of course, you just hang around , don't eat, don't pee (think of the heavenly sewer system!, and just sing hymns 24 hours a day, , 365 days a year......sitting on the right knee of the godthingie along with six billion others at the moment....that's gotta be quite a sight!




t.
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"
Let's see..how many tens of millions of people die each year? There are about 85,000 seconds a year....so when you die, you'll get less than a nanosecond for judgement day? Wow..I'm impressed.....considering they are probably still using quill and parchment in heaven and who knows how big a filing cabinet.....

They've got to be expanding living quarters at an amazing rate to house all the folks, and it is truly a miracle to think of all the food production that has to occur......

unless, of course, you just hang around , don't eat, don't pee (think of the heavenly sewer system!, and just sing hymns 24 hours a day, , 365 days a year......sitting on the right knee of the godthingie along with six billion others at the moment....that's gotta be quite a sight!




t. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Telegraph,

I might be off the mark a tad, but you seem to be excessively
into the bodily function side of the afterlife.

Howie52
Somehow or other, we all tend to all be limited to what we
see - what we've experienced - and how we have interpreted
our observations. We have limitations - physically, spiritually,
intellectually and in our ability to communicate.
There is a wide gap between how man can understand the Creator,
the Son of Man, and the Spirit. Goes well beyond my ability to
communicate or really understand. So, there is a matter of
faith - capitalized to Faith simply because it takes a great leap.
It takes a recognition that I cannot and will not fully understand.
I will never be able to convince others.
There is no proof - no particle waiting to be discovered by
some physicist - no logic. There is a Book - but books are written
and then translated by people - and people are always subject to bias
and to human error. We believe that the Book is divine guidance - and
certainly, you do not find many books written that in the long haul
tells people to forgive, to love others - even your enemies, to
treat others as you would want to be treated.
How many tribes have existed and thrived who treat strangers with
kindness? Who tell people to turn the other cheek? Is this
something that would "evolve" through natural selection alone?
Would human nature lead us to this approach?
Maybe - some other religions go in similar directions - but human
history does not make this a common path - even (in some ways especially) in the history of Christian civilizations. We are all
still human and have human weaknesses. Love of power - love of
money - love of self. We do not "pass the test" if you will.
And the recognition that we can never "pass the test" on our own
is a basic tenet of the Faith - again a capital F.

Perhaps if I was a better Christian I could convince - or at least
more properly describe the religion or get folks to find out from
folks who really know.

Sorry for being wordy and repetitive.
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"Art: What seems self-evident to you is not so to me." - wolverine


People who have Aspergers see connections that "regular" people can't see.

In a holographic piece of film each piece contains the whole. Everything interpenetrates everything. Nothing is separate. Separation is an illusion.

This side, what we call the physical Universe, is the holographic projection.

The other side is the original holographic film. The other side is the place we call heaven.

How do I know that? There is a connection between NDE's and the holographic universe theory. Strange but true. Because that is how hundreds of near death experiencers that I have read describe the other side and since I have studied the properties of a hologram when near death experiencers describe what they experienced I know that is what they are describing.


Art
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"So? You leave out key parts. Majorly key parts...which is inexcusable if you know more about the Bible than any living person." - catherine


??? Any living person? When did I say that? I just said that I know more than you do. Which I'm fairly certain is true.

You seem to have a habit of reading things into people's statements. Just for the record, if you ever get remarried - don't do that.

Art
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The other side is the place we call heaven. How do I know that? There is a connection between NDE's and the holographic universe theory. Strange but true. Because that is how hundreds of near death experiencers that I have read describe the other side and since I have studied the properties of a hologram when near death experiencers describe what they experienced I know that is what they are describing.

I just wonder why you never discuss the NDEs where people clearly have not gone to heaven. Why leave these NDEs out of the discussion?
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Which I'm fairly certain is true.

I doubt it, but it's not a contest.
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"Please leave me out of your fantasy." - catherine


Yes, please feel free to go through life wallowing in your ignorance. Be my guest.

Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you."


Art
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"Let's see..how many tens of millions of people die each year? There are about 85,000 seconds a year....so when you die, you'll get less than a nanosecond for judgement day? Wow..I'm impressed.....considering they are probably still using quill and parchment in heaven and who knows how big a filing cabinet.....

They've got to be expanding living quarters at an amazing rate to house all the folks, and it is truly a miracle to think of all the food production that has to occur......

unless, of course, you just hang around , don't eat, don't pee (think of the heavenly sewer system!, and just sing hymns 24 hours a day, , 365 days a year......sitting on the right knee of the godthingie along with six billion others at the moment....that's gotta be quite a sight!" - tele

------------------------------


You think so three dimensionally! How many angels do you think can fit on the head of a pin? How much space does consciousness take up?

Art
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"Telegraph, I might be off the mark a tad, but you seem to be excessively into the bodily function side of the afterlife."


We are not our physical bodies. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience. When the body dies the "soul" (which is pure consciousness) merges back into the original holographic film.

Art
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"I just wonder why you never discuss the NDEs where people clearly have not gone to heaven. Why leave these NDEs out of the discussion?" Catherine
---------------


I have explained it to you. I'm sorry you didn't understand it. It's obvious you never will.

I'm sorry for your limitations. One day after your physical body dies those limitations will disappear.

Art
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Yes, please feel free to go through life wallowing in your ignorance. Be my guest. Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you."

Art, you so funny.
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I have explained it to you. I'm sorry you didn't understand it. It's obvious you never will. I'm sorry for your limitations. One day after your physical body dies those limitations will disappear.

But aren't you explaining it to your dozens of followers who lurk here? Maybe they don't understand, either.
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this is the perfect video for this conversation. :)


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2OsWJpYI_Zw&desktop_uri=%...
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SO you've got an invisible, not all that powerful, never seen, heard or otherwise, except in special burning bush specials or on stone tablets just once..... unable to stop 'chariots of iron'.....and just about anything else.....burps and moans and groans.....has hissy fits....friend? ya gotta be kidding.
___________________________

And you have your sour grapes. You have developed quite a taste for them

Your expertise on what others believe is outstanding. It is sad that you feel your projections define what so many other people think.

Sincerely, I feel bad that someone has apparently messed up your head so badly.

If there is an active God, I hope he helps you out, it has to suck being you and having to deal with all these folks you despise.

As for me? I do not know what other folks have going on in their minds, so I sure do not think I can figure out the motives of some force that created the universe.
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lowstudent:"And you have your sour grapes. "


Always the 'whine' of the theist. They can't accept a happy atheist. heh heh.....

------



lowstudent:"Your expertise on what others believe is outstanding."

You are free (thank the Constitution) to grovel to whatever godthingies you want. I could care less. Just don't foist your superstitions in front of me with jingles on the national currency and the like.

You can believe whatever 'fairy tales' you wish. Angel tales and demon tales and all sorts of other helper beings too..cherubs...... the list goes on and on. You did read about the supernatural things like angels in the bible,right? They're the ones that blew the trumpets....so I guess you have ears in heaven.


-------



lowstudent:" It is sad that you feel your projections define what so many other people think."

Think? Imagine is more like it.

------



lowstudent:"Sincerely, I feel bad that someone has apparently messed up your head so badly."

Once again, the 'theists whine'. You imply there must be something wrong with someone if they aren't gullible and suck up to groveling.

-------



lowstudent: "If there is an active God, I hope he helps you out,"

Maybe there are 1500 godthingies, and they are jealous (you're bi-bull tells you so)....but...for some reason, you picked the wrong one. And the others are going to make you pay and pay and pay for worshipping the wrong one (or the one who lost the last election up there, down there, over there, or wherever!)....




lowstudent:" it has to suck being you and having to deal with all these folks you despise."

With half the American people now having no active 'religious life' and no need for godthingies, it is just a matter of a few generations till the godthingie phobias are finally overcome.


t.
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"With half the American people now having no active 'religious life' and no need for godthingies, it is just a matter of a few generations till the godthingie phobias are finally overcome." - tele
--------------------


That won't ever happen. Religion is too good a way to experience duality and separation. Look how long we've been arguing on this thread.

Art
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"With half the American people now having no active 'religious life' and no need for godthingies, it is just a matter of a few generations till the godthingie phobias are finally overcome." - tele
--------------------

Yeah, China and Russia killed religion too. The results of not having religion tends to lead to a revival of it.

As far as godthingie phobias, I will bow to your expertise
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"Yeah, China and Russia killed religion too. The results of not having religion tends to lead to a revival of it. "


The Chinese are doing just fine, thank you.


And in Russia, the muslims will take over the east half of the country by 2050. NOt because all the people want it, but because they will outpopulate the remaining Russians.





t.
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And in Russia, the muslims will take over the east half of the country by 2050. NOt because all the people want it, but because they will outpopulate the remaining Russians.
-------------------------------------------------------
Unless Russia institutes a "One Nutjob" policy.
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The Chinese are doing just fine, thank you.

They are?!

Workers get a relatively small piece of economic pie: 53 percent in 2007, down from 61 percent in 1990 and compared with two third in the United States. Total Workforce: 795.3 million in 2006. Labor force by occupation: 24 percent industry; 35 percent agriculture; 31 percent services (2005). By 2030 40 percent of the global work force will come from China or India.[Source: The Economist] [...]

Employers routinely discriminate on the basis of height, looks, health, home province and age. Workers are routinely passed over because they are too ugly or too short or have had hepatitis in the past. A typical advertisement for a factory job reads: “1) Age 18 to 35, middle school education, 2) Good health, good quality, 3) Attentive to hygiene, willing to eat bitterness and work hard. 4) Women 1.66 meters or taller. 5) People from Jiangxi and Sichuan need not apply.”

Factories often have a high turnover. Workers often quit. Companies traditionally could easily fire workers. Many workers have mobile phone and use them to exchange information about jobs. Workers that quit typically don’t give any notice when the leave. They typically ask for a couple days off, change their cell number and split. People frequently change jobs around the lunar New Year. New labors laws make it harder to fire workers.

Many jobs require a lot of overtime. Workers often welcome it as a chance to make more money. Sometimes workers go months without getting paid. When they lose their jobs they often don't receive the pension or severance pay that has been promised them. [...]

A common complaint among laborers is lack of overtime pay when a work schedule exceeds 40 hours. Liu, the labor advocate, said his group had done a study of 210 factories in the Pearl River Delta and the Yangtze River Delta that showed 90 percent of those factories cheat on overtime: they often reported employees as working eight-hour days even when the hours were much longer. Thus, the salaries were much more generous on paper than in reality. [Source: Edward Wong, New York Times, June 20, 2010]

At the Gloria Plaza Hotel in Beijing, workers took their dispute with management to the streets on May 2010. The company that owns the hotel plans to tear it down and lay off the workers. Although the company had said the workers would get the minimum severance pay required by law, the employees complained that that was far too low. They are a state-owned enterprise, they have the money, but they don’t care about us at all, said one woman who declined to be named for fear of retribution. [...]

China has traditionally had an obedient work force, which helps keep management costs low. Photographs of Chinese factories often show rows of workers with no supervisors in sight. In some work places it is not uncommon to have only 15 mangers for 5,000 workers. Working together is expressed by the Chinese proverb: Eight hermits sail the ocean with the might of each other.

A study by the McKinsey consulting group found that the average Chinese workers needs to put in seven hours on the job to earn enough to purchase the same amount of goods or services that an American worker could buy with one hour’s pay.

It’s not only cheap labor that drives China’s economy. Chinese workers are hard working and efficient. Marril Weigrod, a consultant for China Strategies, told the New York Times: “Culturally the Chinese put a very high premium on not losing face. In manufacturing, that translates into not making mistakes on the production line. Their self-discipline and their ability to adapt are key factors in driving Chinese competitiveness.” If one worker is not up to snuff there is another worker waiting in the wings to take his place. [...]

One businessman told Theroux that "young workers were lazy, slow and arrogant, while those over fifty were the best.” Workers who grew up during the Cultural Revolution "seem to have a chip on their shoulder, as if they were cut out for better things." The Chinese "are used to working with their hands," he added. "That's the problem. They can rig up something with a piece of wire and a stick. But they have never relied on sophisticated machinery or high tech. I have to show them every detail about a hundred times." One worker with a machine-making company I talked to said the Chinese were not very good at tinkering with machines to work out what is wrong with them.

One Japanese manager in China told the Washington Post, “The competition for jobs is really brutal here, so people are far more serious about their work..” In Japan “we have to promise workers jobs for life and pay them based on seniority. But no one even thinks about that here. Workers in China believe in merit.”

The stress created by free market economics seems to be taking its toll. One survey found that a third of all this asked felt angry, frustrated or listless. Prozac sales nearly doubled between 2000 and 2004 and an increasing number of stressed out Chinese are seeking advise from psychologists and counselors.

It is not uncommon for discouraged officials and managers to commit suicide. See Mattel

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=367

Doesn't sound "just fine" to me.
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To me politics is the same old thing. Same old duality and separation. Same old arguing and insinuation. I've been alive since 1953 and the Pendulum has swung back and forth pretty much non-stop since I was born, and probably way before that.


I've been watching old "All in the Family" and "Maude" reruns from the early '70s where the characters argue about politics, and I find myself shaking my head at how little has changed in the past 40 years. It's like some of those arguments could've been lifted right from this board. Only the players have changed.
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If I say I believe there is a God and someone says, no there is not, then it's up to them to prove it.


What if in that sentence you took out "God" and substituted Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy? Would it still be "up to them" to prove that these don't exist?
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It is interesting to get folks views on it. Of course out of those views, only Catherine's really matters as she believes her actions impact her future where no one else carries that belief. tele is convinced that folks who believe in God are stealing his lunch money but so are folks who do not believe in God so it's really a push, and Art well, he is concerned that there will be no Ramen Noodles for lunch.


Will there be Ramen noodles in Heaven? And since it is Heaven, would the Ramen noodles of necessity have to be healthy and not unhealthy?

These are the questions that keep a Baron up nights.
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Your 'proof; that you are right is nothing but sour grapes. Sorry it is what it is. At the end of the day there was something else and we apparently came from that. You have it out for someone so you lash out at priests or whatever. Enjoy, but I don't have to tell you that you obviously do in your own seemingly bitter way.


I remember awhile back that tele told us he once was a guest on a TV talk show where he debated Jerry Falwell or some such.

How I wish there was a clip of that on YouTube or someplace...
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I remember awhile back that tele told us he once was a guest on a TV talk show where he debated Jerry Falwell or some such.

He was?! Oh this I gotta see!
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"Will there be Ramen noodles in Heaven? And since it is Heaven, would the Ramen noodles of necessity have to be healthy and not unhealthy? These are the questions that keep a Baron up nights." - Andrew


Whatever is here has to be there. It's a holographic universe thing.


Excerpt from an interview in National Geographic with Dr. Brian Greene, PhD physicist from Columbia University:

"In the final chapter of your book, you suggest that the world may be a hologram. That sounds very Matrix-like."

"It's a very speculative idea that seems to, strangely enough, naturally emerge from string theory. Basically, the fundamental laws of the universe don't really operate in the environment around us. They may operate on sort of a distant bounding surface and give rise to the familiar world that we experience in much the same way that a thin piece of plastic, when illuminated correctly—if it's a hologram—can yield a three-dimensional image.

It might be that the deep laws are more like the thin piece of plastic existing on a thin bounding surface. Everything we know might be akin to a holographic projection of those distant laws."



Art
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Latest book coming out by Dr. Sam Parnia, M.D.

Erasing Death: The Science That Is Rewriting the Boundaries Between Life and Death [Hardcover]
Sam Parnia (Author), Josh Young (Author)

"Erasing Death: The Science That Is Rewriting the Boundaries Between Life and Death sheds new light on the ultimate mystery: What happens to human consciousness during and after death?

No one comes face-to-face with death more often than Dr. Sam Parnia, founder of the AWARE Study (AWAreness during REsuscitation), and one of the world’s leading experts on the scientific study of death, the human mind-brain relationship, and near-death experiences.

Based on cutting-edge research in the science of death, Erasing Death is evidence that we are making previously unthinkable technological progress in our battle against death, and still more radical victories await us. With Dr. Parnia at the forefront, we may be on the verge of inadvertently discovering a new universal science of consciousness that reveals the nature of mind and the so-called human soul."

http://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Death-Science-Rewriting-Bounda...


Art
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It's simply not plausible that the universe appeared out of nowhere/nothing.

Quite plausible actually. And I'm no atheist - more of an extreme pantheist.

There's a decent amount of evidence that all the matter and energy in the universe adds up pretty close to zero - close enough to think that if we had accurate and precise measurements of everything, it probably would be exactly zero. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. And we have observed physical phenomena that would not occur - according to our current understanding - if particles did not continue to appear (in balanced pairs that add up to zero) out of nothing, so we are pretty sure that stuff DOES appear out of nothing.

The chances of that happening, what with the magnificence of the universe and everything in it, is practically nil.

Incorrect. Particularly if one thinks that any of quite a few multiple-universe hypotheses - either simultaneous or sequential universes - is likely to be true. Either there's something the physicists haven't figured out yet tying the "fundamental constants" together and causing them to be compatible with complex life, or the set of values we have is just as likely as any other set of values. But if a universe doesn't have a set compatible with complex life, that universe goes unobserved and unmarveled-at - no matter how marvelous it may be.

On a smaller scale, yeah it seems unlikely that this particular planet would be so suited for us. But we've found out there are a LOT of planets. (786 known confirmed planets as of June 2012, all of them in the 1% of the galaxy that is closest to us - and thousands of candidates within that same space still awaiting further examination.) The more we learn, the more likely it appears that sapient life would develop SOMEWHERE. And wherever it develops, that sapient life would refer to that place as "this particular planet" and to themselves as "us". Making "this particular planet would be so suited for us" shift from an improbability to something that is obviously true.

We have no reason to think that the world we live in was designed for us, when it's just as valid and vastly more likely that we were adapted for that world (because if we didn't adapt for it, we wouldn't be in it).

But that's what atheists believe.

That's what atheists who happen to know a bit about physics believe.

It's also what astrophysicists believe, whether they are atheists, monotheists, polytheists or pantheists, because it fits the observed facts better than other testable theories humans have come up with.

Remember, the scientists - proper scientists doing science - only try to read and understand what is written in the rocks, in the stars, and in living things. A Christian would have to believe that God wrote the world - and does not lie.

(A large chunk of credit for that paragraph, by the way, belongs here: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML )

It's far more plausible that a Creator actually did create the magnificence we see before us.

Ah, so you make things better - in your opinion - by giving a name to the nowhere/nothing that the universe appeared from. Or possibly to the trigger that caused it to appear.

I don't have a problem with that. I just don't understand why you are offended when someone else finds that naming unnecessary and unhelpful to them.

(I also don't understand why some atheists are offended when someone DOES find that naming necessary or helpful. Let alone center a major effort around whether a certain word does or does not appear as an irrelevant decoration on a common document which consists primarily of irrelevant decorations and which nobody actually reads.)

Me, I leave the origin of the universe out of my theology (along with the origin of gods) because it isn't important to relationships between gods and men. I also am not troubled if someone worships a different god than I do because maybe the relationship with a god that they need is significantly different from the relationship with a god that I need. Humans, I have noticed, are not all the same; one will look at a picture and see beauty while another will look at the same picture and see ugliness; why should we all see God in the same way?
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We are not separate from God. We and the Creator are One.

Hey, Art and I agree on something about religion...

It's a holographic universe thing. Ya'll keep thinking so separately. You've got to let that go.

I thought you said we were here to *experience* separation - now you want us to let it go?
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"I thought you said we were here to *experience* separation - now you want us to let it go?" - warrl


If someone can't grasp the implications of the holographic universe theory they won't understand, as long as they live on this earth, ...

what the hell I'm talking about.

Art
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"neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female" in the kingdom of heaven. Galatians 3

I'm sorry, what was that last bit? No male or female?

And this is supposed to be heaven?
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Whatever is here has to be there.

You might want to qualify that statement. Hardly the stuff of Heaven.

http://www.surfscience.com/images/stories/TheSurfLife/LifeAs...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_q-H-O2nToJ8/S_VXFtMFHkI/AAAAAAAAAo...
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I just don't understand why you are offended when someone else finds that naming unnecessary and unhelpful to them.

Who's "offended?" Nobody around here that I can see. Personally, I find tele's diatribes against God amusing.

Let alone center a major effort around whether a certain word does or does not appear as an irrelevant decoration on a common document which consists primarily of irrelevant decorations and which nobody actually reads.

What are you talking about?
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If someone can't grasp the implications of the holographic universe theory they won't understand, as long as they live on this earth, ... what the hell I'm talking about.

Sure. Blame the victim. ;-)
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"I'm sorry, what was that last bit? No male or female? And this is supposed to be heaven? " - warrl


Pure consciousness, "soul stuff." You experience life in a different way. Whatever you focus your attention on, that is what you experience. The physics of heaven is very different than the physics of this universe. Here we experience separation. There we experience "oneness and connectedness."

read Mark Horton's NDE description. It's a really cool read.

Excerpt from Mark's NDE,

"Then the "experience" began.

Suddenly dusk became full, blazing daylight, except with a brightness brighter than normally associated with daylight... ev- erything was bright as I was lifted (without any feeling or pres- sure) upwards to a high point (I assume, since I was unaware of standing on anything or for that matter aware of any "body" that I had) I was pure intellect, absorbing information and knowledge through "sensors" or means that I have no concept of. From this vantage point, I had to merely think of a place and time and I was there, experiencing everything about the place and time and people present."

full NDE description can be read here:

http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

Art
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Let alone center a major effort around whether a certain word does or does not appear as an irrelevant decoration on a common document which consists primarily of irrelevant decorations and which nobody actually reads.

What are you talking about?


Tele's comments about the word "God" on US money.

(When is the last time you READ a dollar bill? And how much of what is printed on it is actually meaningful or useful for any purpose related to the fact of it being a dollar bill, other than distinguishing genuine Federal Reserve paper from counterfeits?)
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. . . distinguishing genuine Federal Reserve paper from counterfeits? . . .


+++
+++

OCD:

distinguishing that sham Federal Reserve paper from genuine Silver Certificates?


sunray
a man who remembers REAL greenbacks & pre-1964 silver coinage

;-)
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(When is the last time you READ a dollar bill? And how much of what is printed on it is actually meaningful or useful for any purpose related to the fact of it being a dollar bill, other than distinguishing genuine Federal Reserve paper from counterfeits?)

I think the government should be completely secular. "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." That being the case, government stays open on regular business days, no Christmas or Easter days off. Those days are reserved for believers.
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. . . distinguishing genuine Federal Reserve paper from counterfeits? . . .


+++
+++

OCD:

distinguishing that sham Federal Reserve paper from genuine Silver Certificates?


No, it's really Federal Reserve paper. They aren't faking that. It's really paper, and the Federal Reserve really does stand behind a promise to exchange it for other similar paper.
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a man who remembers REAL greenbacks & pre-1964 silver coinage

;-)

sunray


Wow you must be old! I recall the silver dimes, quarters and half dollars, but by the time I had some disposable income (at age 13 in 1970 when I started my newspaper route), these coins had all but disappeared from circulation. Had I been about ten years older I would have stockpiled these coins in 1964 when they were last minted.

My friend's 96 year old father died in November and my friend that his father had hoarded rolls of silver coins. My friend's lawyer checked with coin dealers and found that these dealers are paying 20 to 21 times face value for pre 1965 US silver coins.

Years ago I bought a set of 48 90% silver Roosevelt dimes to complete my collection of all dates and mint marks from 1946 to 1964. I recall paying $7.95 for the 48 dimes. I should have purchased more sets since they sold for less than 2x face value.

Mike
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telegraph,

You are correct- it is up to the person making the claim to support that claim.

But you don't seem to have an argument against the statement, "it is not supportable to claim that there is no god".

k
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sorry..your argument is flawed in at least six ways.


1) You never have to disprove a negative. It is up to the person 'claiming' something to prove it, not to someone who does not accept your hypothesis to 'disprove it'. Major fail on your part.


Sorry, but I just can't leave this argument alone- perhaps it is a personal weakness of mine-

What is wrong with your ability to discern the meaning of a written statement? Did I say that you have to prove that there is no god? I merely said that it couldn't be proven that there is no god. You claim that my argument is flawed and then proceed to show that the onus in on those who claim that there is a god to prove that existence and not on you to prove otherwise.

I agree and nothing I said proves otherwise.

Now-- did you argue against a perceived threat to your worldview? as opposed to arguing against an actual threat? or what?

k
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