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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 51387  
Subject: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/5/2012 9:12 PM
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Chipper goes out as a gentleman; Braves' fans not so much.

The call may or may not have been wrong but continuing to throw stuff out onto the field - not a good thing.

Christina
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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47803 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/5/2012 9:34 PM
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They can squawk about the infield fly all they want, but the three errors killed them.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47804 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/5/2012 9:34 PM
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And the twelve men LOB.

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Author: AOLFoolman100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47805 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/5/2012 10:31 PM
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I caught the very end of the game. What was the game delay all about? Fans throwing stuff on the field. What happened?

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47806 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/5/2012 10:42 PM
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They sure didn't seem to mind when the umpire retroactivly awarded Dave Ross a time out.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47807 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/5/2012 10:48 PM
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I caught the very end of the game. What was the game delay all about? Fans throwing stuff on the field. What happened?

Watch ESPN. You'll no doubt see the infield fly that wasn't for the rest of your life.

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47812 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/6/2012 1:47 PM
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They can squawk about the infield fly all they want, but the three errors killed them.


Bad calls are nearly always a loser's lament since I guess that feels better than admitting the obvious.

There are plenty of reasons the Braves lost that game but that call - in and of itself - didn't cost them that game.

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Author: HardyWeinberg Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47813 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/6/2012 2:59 PM
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What's with calling 'infield fly' on a play in the outfield? Is that like how they no longer call traveling in the NBA?

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Author: Fuskie Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Ticker Guide SC1 Red Winner of the 2010 Rule Breakers Challenge Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47817 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/6/2012 9:43 PM
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Sadly, it has the appearance of a normally reliable umpire inserting themselves into the game. Legal call, maybe but legitimate call? No way.

Fuskie
Who notes that once the game resumed play, any time a fly ball was caught by an outfielder, fans would shout, "Infield Fly Rule"...

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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47822 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/8/2012 12:25 AM
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My take is that while the literal interpretation of the rule may allow such a call to be made, the situation it occured in needs to be surgically removed from the rule book.

Look it is called the INFIELD fly rule. It's intent is to PROTECT the baserunners. It prevents an infielder from deliberately letting a ball drop so that they can turn a double play or get a speedy lead runner off the bases. Such an action by an infielder is only possible if they are generally in very close proximity to second base. When said infielder is 40-50 feet into left field there is a zero percent chance that he would even consider dropping the ball on purpose.

In all my years of baseball watching I have never seen a call like this one. When the infield fly rule is called most times the infielder is standing squarely on the dirt or even on the infield grass. On occasion, they may drift a couple of steps into the outfield. I would say that universally, the call is made almost instantly. So, not only have I never seen this type of call made so far out into the outfield, I don't recall ever seeing it called so late either.

From where I sit, the Braves got hosed big time on this call. Note that I say this as a Mets fan who has been subjected to more than enough torment from this team (and the Mets themselves) over the years. Their three errors are a bigger reason that their season ended, but one can never know what they would have done with the bases loaded and one out.

That is the problem with most protests as I see it. If you upheld the protest, would you automatically erase all that happened after this and restart it from that point? The one protest that was upheld that probably sticks in most fans minds is George Brett and the infamous pine tar game in the 1980's. One key difference is that the onfield call in that game ended the game. When it was later reversed, the game was simply picked up from the point of Brett's HR and played out from there.

Considering this was the first play in wild card game, MLB once again ended up with egg on their face. They are stuck having to defend a dumb call that is technically allowed under the rules. Sometimes the embarrassments do lead to some rule changes. The Jeffrey Maier ball from the 1990's Yanks-O's series at least led to the video review we now have on HRs. Of course the changes can't fix the mistakes that were already made.


B

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47823 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/8/2012 1:01 AM
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Atlanta Braves: 3 errors, 12 men LOB. THAT is why they lost.

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47825 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/8/2012 10:58 AM
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Considering this was the first play in wild card game, MLB once again ended up with egg on their face. They are stuck having to defend a dumb call that is technically allowed under the rules.


The call likely didn't change anything about the outcome and I tend to doubt that one isolated bad in a game puts any egg on MLB's face over the WC structure.

Play better than your opponent and none of this is even a discussion.

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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47830 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/9/2012 6:44 PM
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<THAT is why they lost.>


That is why they gave up 4 of the 6 runs. I get that allowing four unearned runs (or sometimes even one) in a deciding playoff game will not usually get you to the next round.

Yet I view the umpiring error as a stand alone event. Would you view it differently if it was a 4-3 score or a tie game?

I am not saying that if the call was not made that the Braves would have won. As a fan I simply would have liked to have seen the full pressure situation with Mccann batting with the bases loaded and one out instead of second and third with two outs. My POV is to let the proverbial "cards" fall where they may.

As I said I am in no way a Braves fan. I view this as a baseball fan who likes to see the games decided by the good or bad play on the field, not by an umpires missed or wrong call. I have yet to hear anyone here, on tv or elsewhere say they have EVER seen an infield fly rule called the way that this one was. It simply defies logic that a ball so far out into the outfield could possibly be called an infield fly.

The fuss around this will not change the outcome of the game. However, it is my hope that the rule will be clarified so that we do not have something like this happen in an even bigger game. How would this play out if it was a Game 7 WS in a one run game? That is what I hope can be avoided.


B

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Author: Jacketfan Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47836 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/10/2012 2:46 PM
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I am not saying that if the call was not made that the Braves would have won. As a fan I simply would have liked to have seen the full pressure situation with Mccann batting with the bases loaded and one out instead of second and third with two outs. My POV is to let the proverbial "cards" fall where they may.

Isn't is possible (likely?) that the umpire calling infield fly at the last minute is what caused the shortstop to pull away at the last minute, thinking maybe he was being called off? So while the umpire definitely screwed the pooch, I'm not convinced that there would have been bases loaded one out, in absence of the molested canine.

v/r
Tom

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47839 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/10/2012 6:12 PM
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Yet I view the umpiring error as a stand alone event. Would you view it differently if it was a 4-3 score or a tie game?


I don't agree that the umpire made an error. He should have called the infield fly sonner but it's not like the call was wrong.

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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47846 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/11/2012 1:27 PM
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<I don't agree that the umpire made an error. He should have called the infield fly sonner but it's not like the call was wrong.>


This is the crux of the argument IMO. I did not see or hear anyone say or show that a call like this has ever been made in a MLB game. I HAVE seen many times where an outfielder and infielder converged on the ball in a similar manner. In fact I would say it is not a particularly unusual situation. While the ball is usually caught by one or the other, I have seen enough of them drop in either by the old Alphonse and Gaston routine or by both fielders running into eachother.

The fact that it may be allowable under a literal interpretation of the rule does not explain how or why it has never been called before. Is it as simple as a fifth or sixth umpire in a playoff game typically has few calls to make so they may be tempted to put themselves into the game?

Those who focus on the errors miss the point IMO. Coco Crisp's drop in game two cost the A's two runs. Yet they scored a run in the next inning to retake the lead. So they had a chance to win if they held on. Instead they again gave up the tying run on a wild pitch and lost it in the 9th. So after the game his drop is considered the difference in the game. A two run error in a one run loss certainly sticks out. Yet the fact that the team once again was in the lead afterwards will often get overlooked or ignored.

I feel bad for Chipper and the Braves in that their very successful 162 game season ended in a one game elimination where they did not play like they did for most of the season. So I do understand them not looking to blame the call for their losing. Yet the call did prevent them from having a reasonable shot at getting themselves back into the game.

We see variations of this all the time as a strike three call is often shown to be outside, low or high with the high tech pitch locater. We also see the reverse with ball four called on pitches that were clearly strikes. Then there are the did he swing or not calls that happen all game long. I don't like when they are wrong, but there is always a human element involved. At least these are regularly occuring calls. I just don't like seeing calls that have never been made before that defy common sense.

As I have said the whole idea of the infield fly rule is to protect the baserunners, not to assist the fielders. This call did the opposite by giving a gift to the fielders and did not help the baserunners. If it can be interpreted the way it was then MLB needs to go back and revisit the rule. Would they prefer to eliminate similar future calls or would they mind having it blow up in their faces during a key WS game?


B

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47849 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/11/2012 5:38 PM
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I see your points and agree that the call has caused undue consternation some legitimate and some not. I agree that a call that is rarely made - whether correct or not - will often create the perception of inequity.

On specifics:

I feel bad for Chipper and the Braves in that their very successful 162 game season ended in a one game elimination where they did not play like they did for most of the season. So I do understand them not looking to blame the call for their losing. Yet the call did prevent them from having a reasonable shot at getting themselves back into the game.

I disagree. The call was right, maybe Braves fans don't like it and for sure it doesn't get called out there very often but the idea that those fans have a legitimate gripe or that the Braves were somehow treated unfairly is nonsense.


As I have said the whole idea of the infield fly rule is to protect the baserunners, not to assist the fielders. This call did the opposite by giving a gift to the fielders and did not help the baserunners. If it can be interpreted the way it was then MLB needs to go back and revisit the rule.

This is different from my interpretation of the rule. I thought the rule was to prevent the fielder from allowing the ball to drop, picking it up and completing a double play. I submit that the Braves were actually helped by the call since either fielder could have picked up the ball, completed a double play and ended the inning. The call prevented that.

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Author: EternalGrom Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47850 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/11/2012 6:40 PM
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I submit that the Braves were actually helped by the call since either fielder could have picked up the ball, completed a double play and ended the inning.

the single most amazing double play in the history of baseball.

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 47852 of 51387
Subject: Re: Atlanta Braves Date: 10/11/2012 7:12 PM
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the single most amazing double play in the history of baseball.


I figured as long as we were positing ridiculous hypotheticals......

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