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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 71912  
Subject: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 7:06 PM
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More and more evidence of Obama's complete failure that resulted in deaths of 4 Americans.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-officer-got-no-reply-cables-asking-...

A U.S. security officer twice asked his State Department superiors for more security agents for the American mission in Benghazi months before an attack that killed the U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other Americans, but he got no response.

At some point, however, it appears Nordstrom learned the views of Lamb because he told the committee she "wanted to keep the number of U.S. security personnel in Benghazi artificially low," the memo said.

"He said that Deputy Assistant Secretary (for international programs) Lamb believed the Benghazi post did not need any Diplomatic Security Special Agents because there was a residential safe haven to fall back to in an emergency, but that she thought the best course of action was to assign three agents," the memo said.
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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64159 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 7:45 PM
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I'll bet that when this whole Libyan thing is reviewed systematically, it will turn out that all the current finger pointing is just political dramatization of very ordinary, day to day stuff that happens in diplomatic circles, but that happens to include some unfortunate deaths, which is not ordinary, but which happens, and often in ways that were not very avoidable other than diplomacy by drone or teleconference.

It isn't as if we are dealing with an unruly mob who overpowered an insufficient security staff and gained access. More guards are not necessarily effective against rockets. And how much of what we are seeing turned into headlines is just opportunistic manipulation of routine diplomatic interaction? Who is it actually making these requests that are being turned down? Are such requests routine and are they routinely turned down? Would they have made any difference if granted? What level were they made? Was there any intelligence behind them or were they just nervous people in an unfamiliar place wanting more staff? And, given what you, Duma, are trying to make of this, was *any* of this something that Obama would have been personally aware of?

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Author: rjf53 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64161 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 7:53 PM
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More and more evidence of Obama's complete failure that resulted in deaths of 4 Americans.

More problems with reading comprehension Mr Duma or is it me that has missed something?

Since you seem to be the expert perhaps you could tell me the number of attackers involved and how well they were armed.

When you are finished with that, then perhaps we can discuss just how much difference another one or two guards might have made.

Absent that, I'd say it is as reasonable to assume that two additional guards could have as easily resulted in another casualty or two.

By the way what do you think about this piece of news.

The Democratic staff memo that outlined Nordstrom's pleas for more security also said that House Republicans voted to reduce embassy security funding by about half a billion dollars below the amount requested by the Obama administration since 2010. The Democratic-led Senate had been able to restore "a small portion" of these funds, the memo said.

Any comments, or does this fall under your stated position of not being willing to borrow money from the Chinese for unimportant things.

B

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64163 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 7:56 PM
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I'll bet that when this whole Libyan thing is reviewed systematically, it will turn out that all the current finger pointing is just political dramatization of very ordinary, day to day stuff that happens in diplomatic circles,

Right......4 American deaths just ordinary "bumps in the road"............nonsense!

It isn't as if we are dealing with an unruly mob who overpowered an insufficient security staff and gained access.

Funny because that is exactly what Obama and Clinton told us it was......when they were blatantly lieing to us even as the bodies were received back in our country.

More guards are not necessarily effective against rockets.

There were warnings......there were several prior attacks on that exact embassy, there could have been disruption in this attack......the Ambassador could have been elsewhere on 911 anniversary.

Your blatant disregard for the truth reeks of the true politicization.

Who is it actually making these requests that are being turned down?

See the article and several prior.. The Ambassador himself made requests......the private British security form made requests.

What level were they made?

Clinton signed one memo didn't she??

And, given what you, Duma, are trying to make of this, was *any* of this something that Obama would have been personally aware of?

OMG.....gonna blame Bush again???? It is Obama's fault, it is his watch as have everything that has occurred since he became president......that is just how it works.

Star taking responsibility instead of just blaming others all the time. It is so incredibly unpresidential!

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64167 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 8:08 PM
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Any comments, or does this fall under your stated position of not being willing to borrow money from the Chinese for unimportant things.

Try to focus on Benghazi B.....the death of 4 Americans that you so readily want us to believe wasn't preventable.......just a bump in the road.......beyond our control.......inevitable.

That is the message your are sending as is Obama and that is why he is unfit to be commander in chief.

There is more to this story..........the overseas news outlets are reporting and US media is ignoring.

You don't seem to want to know the truth......just say anything or do anything to get Obama reelected.

Sad state of affairs when party takes precedence over country.

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Author: rjf53 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64168 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 8:26 PM
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Try to focus on Benghazi B...

It was in the article you provided and if funding for embassy security doesn't have anything to do with who is making what kind of decisions in your mind, well then, your mind is even more messed up than I previously assumed.

Now that is a scary thought. :<(

B

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64169 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 8:33 PM
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It was in the article you provided and if funding for embassy security doesn't have anything to do with who is making what kind of decisions in your mind, well then, your mind is even more messed up than I previously assumed.

That appears to be a direct violation of the FOOL's rules for posting.......Tamahas......where are you now???

Since you are resorting to name calling B, it appears there is nothing further to say to you.

The Repubs, Bush, the Altitude, or whatever else you try to blame.......ain't gonna work.

Obama's incompetence is to blame as in everything else that has occurred over the past 4 years.......that is just the way it is.

At some point and time.....Obama and you have to stop acting like children and blaming everyone but yourself.....the true owner of the problem.

Mitt won't pull this BS.....he will take responsibility.

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64173 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 9:25 PM
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More reading comprehension issues. Of course, someone dying is significant. Including those from drunken drivers ... a much higher number than 4. 4 isn't even much of a tally for gun deaths in a major city in one night.

"the ambassador could have been elsewhere" ... well, yeah, but he chose not to and I don't see what that has to do with the number of guards. It certainly doesn't have anything to do with someone inside the Libyan structure providing information.

I'm sure that you are familiar with the phase "going off half cocked" ... well, this is going off a whole lot less than half and acting if something is proved. Right now, this is on the same credibility level as the improbably expensive Indian trip.

By the way, if person A cites something as being of great political significance and person B points out that the claim is unfounded, dubious, unproven or whatever, that is *not* inherently an argument for the other political party, it is just questioning the claim. Here, I think the dominant point is "we don't know" and so leaping to grand political conclusions is transparently politically motivated, especially since there are simpler, less colorful explanations available, and even more likely.

And where in the world did your imagination come up with blaming Bush of this one? Yes, nice idea that the buck stops at the top since ultimate responsibility lies there, but the reality, for lots more than just the presidency, is that lots of things get handled at lower levels where it is quite possible for people to do things that the top person wouldn't approve of ... including lots of embezzeling cases that are not blamed on the boss, for example.

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64175 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 9:29 PM
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Sad state of affairs when party takes precedence over country.

Now, that is genuinely funny, coming from you!

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64177 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/9/2012 10:06 PM
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Duma, if you think someone has violated TMF rules, report the post and let them decide if they agree. This admonishing people for their "violations" is tiresome.

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64189 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 6:44 AM
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Obama is not a competent commander in chief. Even as we received our Americans' remains, they propagated the lies about what and why this transpired.

Incompetence at best......arrogance and much more.

http://www.thestate.com/2012/10/10/2475149/state-dept-reveal...

The account answers some questions and leaves others unanswered. Chief among them is why for several days the Obama administration said the assault stemmed from a protest against an American-made Internet video ridiculing Islam, and whether the consulate had adequate security.

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Author: rjf53 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64191 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 9:43 AM
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Duma,

Your latest endeavor to smear Obama reminds me of the famous Lenin quote where he stated that “Capitalists will sell us the rope which we will hang them.”

So now we know, if this account is anywhere near accurate, that your attempt at throwing any and all accusations against the wall in hope some might stick has been revealed for what it is.

Your claim of unarmed guards on orders from the State Department…baseless.

Your claim of only 3 or 4 guards when 5 were called for…baseless.

Your claim of the use of private security playing a role in the outcome…baseless.

Your claim that special precautions weren’t taken…baseless.

So you are now reduced to your complaining about how long it took the Obama administration to describe it as a terrorist attack as if that would somehow alter the outcome.

Even with that, the question has been asked and answered…

Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told a conference in Florida on Tuesday that there was no advanced warning about the Libya attack.

He scoffed at media portrayals of him as "hapless and hopeless" for acknowledging on September 28 a shift in the intelligence assessment of the Benghazi assault, calling it a deliberate terrorist attack instead of an event stemming from spontaneous protest, as initially thought.

Clapper suggested it was unrealistic for anyone to expect the U.S. intelligence community to have a "a God's eye, God's ear certitude" right after an attack like the one in Libya.


To be fair, I don’t know yet how credible this account is either although the level of detail makes me inclined to believe that it may indeed be much closer to the truth. What it does show(if true) is the attack was large enough and sophisticated enough that even a force of 60 was unable to secure the perimeter and the attack extended well beyond the compound.

So in lay mans terms Duma I’d say you ain’t got sh1t and you need not take my word for it because you can simply read the rope , oops, I meant the source that you have provided me.

Except of course for that “God’s eye, God's ear certitude” of yours.

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64193 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 11:31 AM
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Baseless?????

You are baseless!

Obama blew it and 4 Americans died as a result.

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Author: rjf53 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64196 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 12:01 PM
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Baseless?????

You are baseless!


Talk about someone lacking debating skills, you have now been reduced to mumbling.

Don't get mad at me all I did is use the information you brought to the board.

Relax duma, I'm sure the Republicans will find a way to provide enough spin to feed your ignorance when the hearings start shortly.

Bliss, to the rescue. :<)

B

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64198 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 3:11 PM
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Talk about someone lacking debating skills, you have now been reduced to mumbling.

There is no need to debate the baseless as is your claims of no wrong doing.

There have been numerous accounts of Obama administration wrong doing. You have failed to address any of them

So there is no debate.......just your despicable desire to reelect the indefensible.......party over country......sad really.

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64199 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 3:24 PM
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And, once again, that which is difficult to respond to is either ignored to defined as unimportant or wrong without providing any new data.

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64200 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 3:38 PM
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And, once again, that which is difficult to respond to is either ignored to defined as unimportant or wrong without providing any new data.

Listen to the hearings tamahas.......this is really bad for your Obama.

But most importantly.......it was and is tragic for our country and the 4 American souls that perished as a result of Obama administration's incompetency.

You can run but you cannot hide.

Your and B's arguments are not arguments at all......just denial and obfuscation.

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Author: rjf53 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64201 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 3:42 PM
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wrong without providing any new data.

Well strictly speaking Mr duma has provided plenty of data it just so happens that it has only served to prove him wrong.

That being said I haven't made my own mind up as to whether anyone screwed up or how bad, only that Mr duma's professed interested in the truth is a crock of BS.

On a slightly different note that involves Mr duma's fondness for the sound-byte "bump in the road".

I saw Mr Romney use it in front of an audience today when discussing this event. When the audience responded with laughter he said "yeah that was my first response as well".

Applying Mr. duma's standards, I guess that proves Mr Romney views the death of 4 people as funny.

Shameful don't you think?

B

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64202 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 3:49 PM
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Right, Issa is so well known for his fair and balanced hearings!

Despite the highly partisan tone which Issa sets, how about this from the person who earlier provided the quote about requests being ignored that you are so fond of:

One witness, Eric Nordstrom, is the former chief security officer for U.S. diplomats in Libya, who earlier told the congressional investigators his pleas for more security were ignored.

Nordstrom's prepared testimony struck a different tone, however. He told the panel that the "ferocity and intensity of the attack was nothing that we had seen in Libya, or that I had seen in my time in the Diplomatic Security Service. Having an extra foot of wall, or an extra-half dozen guards or agents would not have enabled us to respond to that kind of assault."

He also testified that he was "impressed with the plans that would send our team into Libya-a massive show of well-organized resources. I felt that resource requests would be considered seriously and fastidiously by [Diplomatic Security] and the [State] Department. I believe that the vast majority of my requests were considered in that manner."


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57529888/house-probes-se...

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64208 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/10/2012 5:17 PM
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Your claim of unarmed guards on orders from the State Department…baseless.

Your claim of only 3 or 4 guards when 5 were called for…baseless.

Your claim of the use of private security playing a role in the outcome…baseless.

Your claim that special precautions weren’t taken…baseless.


Interesting that everything you say above is pure liberal protectionisn even at the detriment of your own country.

That is shameful indeed.

Maybe you missed the first day of the hearings today???

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/10/10/bengh...

Lt. Col, Andrew Wood, a former special forces soldier who commanded the Site Security Team in Libya from Feb. 12 to Aug. 14, said the embassy and consulate endured "numerous" security incidents. The Libya government had lost control of weapons, he said.

"Lawless situation was pretty much the norm," "We did notice an increase in targeted attacks toward Americans," that signaled to him that the security situation was far from secure.


Great....let's send our ambassador there right???

"When that occurred, it was apparent to me we were the last flag flying in Benghazi. We were the last target on their list," Wood said.

OK......you mean Col. Wood was the only person to recognize that Benghazi was the next target??

he said the consulate in Benghazi, where U.S. ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans were killed, never had the forces it needed to protect itself.

He said that U.S. security was so weak that in April, only one U.S. diplomatic security agent was stationed in Benghazi.


Baseless???? Obviously all of your assertions are but NONE of mine!

Diplomatic security remained weak. In April there was only one U.S. diplomatic security agent stationed there," he said in his prepared, written testimony. "The RSO (regional security officer) struggled to obtain additional personnel there but was never able to attain the numbers he felt comfortable with," Wood added.

Baseless #2 and 3 ????????.........Obviously your assertions only!! Obama failed us again.

Nordstrom earlier told the committee that his pleas for more security were ignored.

Baseless #4 ????? Obviously all my reported assertions have been coorborated!!! Obama failed us.....and then mislead us!

Nordstrom addressed the diplomatic security issue in an Oct. 1 email to a congressional investigator. He said his requests for more security were blocked by a department policy to "normalize operations and reduce security resources."

Obama blocked the request for more security......he was there......he should know.

Baseless?????.........you take party over country......shameful!!

He stated that Charlene Lamb, the deputy assistant secretary for international programs, wanted to keep the number of U.S. security personnel in Benghazi artificially low. He said Lamb believed the Benghazi facilities did not need any diplomatic security special agents because there was a residential safe haven to fall back to in an emergency.

It just gets worse and worse.........and you ignore the tragedy for political purposes!

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64304 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/12/2012 11:36 AM
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The point was raised earlier about putting a number of the number of incremental deaths due to lack of insurance so that one could compare it to the four deaths in Benghazi. Well, here you go:

A 2009 study conducted at Harvard Medical School and Cambridge Health Alliance, and published in the American Journal of Public Health concluded that “[l]ack of health insurance is associated with as many as 44,789 deaths per year in the United States, more than those caused by kidney disease. … The increased risk of death attributable to uninsurance suggests that alternative measures of access to medical care for the uninsured, such as community health centers, do not provide the protection of private health insurance.”

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/10/romney-says-peopl...

There are a number of studies cited and all but one, which is a clear outlier and makes no sense have figures in 5 digits.

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64306 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/12/2012 11:43 AM
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The point was raised earlier about putting a number of the number of incremental deaths due to lack of insurance so that one could compare it to the four deaths in Benghazi.

I see.......Obama and tamahsa say that 4 American lives are just a bump in the road.......hell more people die from peanut allergies.

Outrageous extremist liberal technique you apply to minimize the complete failure of Obama on Muslim foreign policy.

He broke Libya and now he owns it! (stolen from Colin Powell).

As to your distraction technique, Obamacare will hardly improve access as you are insinuating......all this kidney disease will just go away???

Stay on topic tamahas......lose the liberal distraction Joker rhetoric!

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64308 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/12/2012 11:56 AM
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all this kidney disease will just go away???

The point is not that it goes away, but that it gets treated and fewer people die as a result.

It is significant when anyone dies, but acting as if 4 in Benghazi is the end of the world and 40,000 here is nothing is a profound lack of perspective.

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Author: dumaflotchie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64309 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/12/2012 12:02 PM
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The point is not that it goes away, but that it gets treated and fewer people die as a result.

It is significant when anyone dies, but acting as if 4 in Benghazi is the end of the world and 40,000 here is nothing is a profound lack of perspective.


Using your same twisted logic then, just because 4,000 people perished in 9/11.....that is still way below the 40,000 (you claim falsely) would be saved from kidney disease?????

You are merely pulling a Joker.....and throwing out garbage that is completely off topic and baseless all the same.

If you want to talk about the disasters of Obamacare, then start a thread but to distract from the horror and ineptness of Obama/Biden ion Benghazi......you are just playing the Joker like we witnessed last night.

BTW.....I can just imagine Biden sitting down with Putin of Russia and mocking him, grunting, interrupting, Joker smiling, etc........That was presidential material?????

Dump these bizarre extremist liberals!

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Author: tamhas Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 64312 of 71912
Subject: Re: Benghazi Nigthmare Date: 10/12/2012 12:21 PM
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More reading comprehension problems, Duma. I said nothing at all about the 40,000 being related solely to kidney disease. It is the figure, a figure, for additional deaths from all sources due to lack of insurance. One suspects, for example, that a large part is from untreated heart disease either because it is not diagnosed when it could have been given early treatment or because the person cannot afford the medication without insurance.

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