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Author: pekinrobin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 884837  
Subject: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 5:18 PM
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DId you guys see the outrageous article on the front of the Fool today?

They should be ashamed.

Just four years ago, on 9-11, a huge event occurred for which there is no insurance coverage, since acts of war and terrorism are SPECIFICALLY excluded from insurance coverage.

Nonetheless, insurers and taxpayers stepped up to the plate. In some cases, survivors received 100s of thousands of dollars in lost earnings even though their family member died in an act specifically excluded under policy.

The families of people killed in Katrina aren't asking for anything like that. But we are asking that the damned insurance companies pick up the damned phone. We are asking that insurers honestly and quickly fulfill their contracts, instead of hiding behind the "fast busy" signal. And we are asking for the grants from FEMA that a Yankee would get, if this event happened in everloving New York City.

Look, we already know you don't value a black life lost, or a black home lost, or a southern life lost, or a southern home lost, as much as a Yankee's life is valued.

But I think you should keep the bigotry to a dull roar. We are not stupid, and our memories are not so short we can't recall what happened only four years ago.

Every time I come back to this site, I just get more and more angry.

You really don't care, do you?

You really don't.

The lack of heart, soul, and kindness here has truly been amazing and a lesson to me, because I would not have believed that the same nation that gave hand-outs to the family of stock-brokers would close its hearts to the families of the destitute. Oh, but it's different, isn't it. Because you think we're stupid because we're from the south, and we just won't notice.

Well, we do notice.

And you should be ashamed, the person who edited and placed that story on the front page most of all.
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Author: brewer12345 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654976 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 5:32 PM
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I don't disagree with most of your post, but expecting insurers to pick up the tab on potentially hundreds of billion of dollars of flood losses that were not included in insurance policies is very different from choosing to pay on a few questionable life insurance claims. FEMA should be stepping up to the plate on this one, not the insurers.

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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654978 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 5:41 PM
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Just four years ago, on 9-11, a huge event occurred for which there is no insurance coverage, since acts of war and terrorism are SPECIFICALLY excluded from insurance coverage.

Nonetheless, insurers and taxpayers stepped up to the plate. In some cases, survivors received 100s of thousands of dollars in lost earnings even though their family member died in an act specifically excluded under policy.

The families of people killed in Katrina aren't asking for anything like that. But we are asking that the damned insurance companies pick up the damned phone. We are asking that insurers honestly and quickly fulfill their contracts, instead of hiding behind the "fast busy" signal. And we are asking for the grants from FEMA that a Yankee would get, if this event happened in everloving New York City.



Bill Mann's article just said that the insurers should not be required to do more than their contracts require them to do. You concede that point. You therefore have no real beef with what he wrote. You may have a beef with FEMA and the insurers who won't pick up the phone, but not TMF.

BK

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Author: jjarmoc Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654986 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 5:54 PM
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Look, we already know you don't value a black life lost, or a black home lost, or a southern life lost, or a southern home lost, as much as a Yankee's life is valued.

I was with you up until this section. After this, I can't take anything you say seriously.


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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654987 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 5:55 PM
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I KNEW this would happen.

The HUGE government handouts that made "instant millionaires" of the 9-11 families were not only wrong at the time, they have created a whole new "me too" attitude. We pay one "victim," now everyone EXPECTS his handout, too.

The bottom line is, the government (thats all of us, folks) doesn't owe these people a thing, but we will end up paying hundreds of billions anyway (thats just to feed, house, and assist the millions of evacuees in rebuilding). The government will also give out hundreds of billions in low or no cost rebuilding loans.

Insurance companies are another issue entirely. They are NOT charities. They should promptly pay what they CONTRACTUALLY owe, and nothing more. This is what Mann said (what is so "outrageous" about that? If your home was flooded, they should not pay unless you had flood insurance (why anyone building a home below sea level wouldn't have flood insurance is beyond me).

"The lack of heart, soul, and kindness here has truly been amazing...you think we're stupid because we're from the south, and we just won't notice."

I'm from the South. I have given thousands of dollars in cash and equipment to hurricane relief. I have given over 100 hours of volunteer time (so far). A lot of people have voluntarily put their lives on hold to help out, though they certainly were under no obligation to do so.

That said, I really don't know who you are so angry at or why. I can understand being upset about the slow rescue operations, but I really don't know what you expect beyond that.

jb

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Author: maracle Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654992 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:05 PM
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And you should be ashamed, the person who edited and placed that story on the front page most of all.

Yeah, you're right. Progressive Insurance owes you a million dollars! Just because!


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Author: WBuffettJr Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654994 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:06 PM
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There is no reason to force insurance companies to pay more than what their contract requires. They consider the risk and then charge their premiums based on that risk.

Just FYI, but almost no insurance company makes money by overcharging for premiums or by charging and then not paying later on. Usually 100% of premiums have to be repaid to the customer -- the insurance company only makes money by investing those premiums at a couple % in the down time before they have to pay them back out.

To come in and force insurance companies to pay even more is absurd, an no one would write insurance policies anymore if they were subjected to that kind of huge extra risk that may or may not come and the whim of a couple of senators. The insurance industry would not exist and we would all be worse off.

I'm not sure you thought this one through, and your personal attack on Bill Mann does not make much sense.

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Author: nerokitty Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654995 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:08 PM
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Pekin,

I agree with most of what you say, but you said this:

We are asking that insurers honestly and quickly fulfill their contracts, instead of hiding behind the "fast busy" signal.

Much of the damage may have been excluded under homeowners own policies because they did not have flood insurance.

FEMA steps in in these cases. If you have flood insurance or loss covered by your insurance company, I think you should have the right to quick service.

If you are asking your insurance to pay for coverage you didn't elect to have, you can't ask them to cover you retroactively. That's not fair.

I understand you are angry. I believe the people of the United States have been generous with their time and their money helping out. I'm not talking governmental agencies here. The outpouring has been akin to 9-11.

But insurance companies are not charitable organizations. Government is supposed to be the safety net.

Good luck
Nerokitty

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Author: ARRazorback Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 654997 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:14 PM
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I was watching a piece on ABC News (I think). They showed a woman on the phone to the insurance company.

The paraphrased conversation (while one sided can still be understood) is below:

Woman: I need to file a claim.

<pause>

Woman: But I don't have my papers.

<pause>

Woman: I don't have my papers. They are at the house and it is under water.

<pause>

Woman: The house is destroyed. The papers were in the house.

<pause>

Woman: I don't have ID either. I grabbed my kids and got out. My ID is in the house.

<pause>

The woman hung up, shook her head and said, "They just don't understand what is happening here."

Very sad. I had always assumed the insurance company would know I was their client from their computers and I wouldn't need the insurance papers physically in hand to file a claim.

And I am the child of two licensed insurance agents.

ARR

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Author: WBuffettJr Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655000 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:18 PM
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Just four years ago, on 9-11, a huge event occurred for which there is no insurance coverage, since acts of war and terrorism are SPECIFICALLY excluded from insurance coverage.

Nonetheless, insurers and taxpayers stepped up to the plate. In some cases, survivors received 100s of thousands of dollars in lost earnings even though their family member died in an act specifically excluded under policy


What are you basing this on? Most insurance companies (even including Berkshire Hathaway, run by some of the smartest guys in the biz) had no exclusions at all for terrorism or damage caused by any time of biological, chemical, or nuclear disaster/attack. They do now, but none did on 9/11.

The lack of heart, soul, and kindness here has truly been amazing and a lesson to me, because I would not have believed that the same nation that gave hand-outs to the family of stock-brokers would close its hearts to the families of the destitute. Oh, but it's different, isn't it. Because you think we're stupid because we're from the south, and we just won't notice.

As someone who has donated to the Katrina disaster, this pisses me off to no end. Within hours Congress secured $10 billion in aid, and since then private citizens have already donated another 3/4 of a billion dollars and have secured another $51 billion in aid in addition to the estimated $25 billion that will be given by insurance companies..and all for an event that killed less than 1,000 people, compared to the 3,000+ that were killed on 9/11.

I wish I could give negative recs.

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Author: spl241 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655001 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:25 PM
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9/11 was a terrorist act from an external force, not an "act of God." We heard/read about the growing threats. We expected the government to know more about it than we did. How the hell did 19 hijackers manage to pull this off within our "inviolable" borders, nay, to even learn how to ply their 'trade' here? Where were the CIA and NSA? People sprained their fingers from pointing as the weakest of possible antidotes to guilt.

Likewise, the citizens of NO had been told for years that the levees were inadequate. Documented threats, whether local or national, whether involving humans or nature, are not to be ignored. Yet, life went on in the French Quarter. Mardi Gras continued to be possibly the wildest open drunk in the country. Praise the floats and pass the Bud Light.

When there's an excess of stupidity, there's going to be an excess of vulnerability.



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Author: ARRazorback Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655002 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:28 PM
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for an event that killed less than 1,000 people, compared to the 3,000+ that were killed on 9/11.

Actually, just over 2700 were killed according the latest figures. They stated that this past Sunday during observances. Not 3000+.

We don't know what the death toll from Katrina may be. At last count, NO was closing in on 500 and that is just NO.

She is pissed and hurting. Take the post from where it is coming from.

What are you basing this on? Most insurance companies (even including Berkshire Hathaway, run by some of the smartest guys in the biz) had no exclusions at all for terrorism or damage caused by any time of biological, chemical, or nuclear disaster/attack.

Actually the insurance companies did have exclusions for war and other such attacks. I still have my State Farm policy from 1999 (don't ask me why---I am cleaning out my house and finding all sorts of crap). It specifically stated nuclear attacks and other damages due to war. Now how that played out considering Congress had not declared war I don't know. Farmers had the same language buried in their policies.

ARR




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Author: MethodicalFool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655003 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:28 PM
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That said, I really don't know who you are so angry at or why. I can understand being upset about the slow rescue operations, but I really don't know what you expect beyond that.

i think she's having a meltdown of sorts. everyone becomes to enemy, and the issue is turned extremely bipolar.

i hope she can reflect on this once some time and healing has passed.

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Author: Minxie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655007 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 6:46 PM
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Very sad. I had always assumed the insurance company would know I was their client from their computers and I wouldn't need the insurance papers physically in hand to file a claim.

I don't know who she uses as her insurer. FWIW, I called my insurer, Traveler's (GEICO), and got a menu that would allow me to file a claim using my home telephone number. After you enter that, it then asks for the date your loss occurred, etc. so I don't think you need your policy papers.

I was able to get through on the first try, with no busy signal, and I live in GA. Perhaps the phone lines in LA are simply overwhelmed, particularly if they are reporting a fast busy, versus the normal busy signal.

Minxie

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Author: TheBreeze Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655013 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 7:40 PM
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The lack of heart, soul, and kindness here has truly been amazing and a lesson to me, because I would not have believed that the same nation that gave hand-outs to the family of stock-brokers would close its hearts to the families of the destitute. Oh, but it's different, isn't it. Because you think we're stupid because we're from the south, and we just won't notice.

As someone who has donated to the Katrina disaster, this pisses me off to no end. Within hours Congress secured $10 billion in aid, and since then private citizens have already donated another 3/4 of a billion dollars and have secured another $51 billion in aid in addition to the estimated $25 billion that will be given by insurance companies..and all for an event that killed less than 1,000 people, compared to the 3,000+ that were killed on 9/11.

I wish I could give negative recs.


Lots of people wish we could give negative recs...but all we can do is rec replies that shed light onto posts as dark as the original.


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Author: chewiekiki Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655017 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 7:59 PM
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Get a grip on yourself.

Stop attacking everyone.

Stop calling everyone a racist.

We feel for you, but we don't deserve to be attacked like this every time you post.

Is this helping you?

Maybe you should feel ashamed of yourself that so many people that DO give a crap about the situation and DO give a crap about you personally have to subject themselves to your nasty diatribes just to see if you might slip a word in there that you are okay.

This routine is getting old.

We care. People care. We don't deserve this from you.

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Author: MrsPoppy Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655038 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 10:31 PM
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Look, we already know you don't value a black life lost, or a black home lost, or a southern life lost, or a southern home lost, as much as a Yankee's life is valued.


That you've chosen to make this tragedy an excuse to hate, is a shame and ultimately very sad for you. That you are calling me, and others in this community racist is unacceptable.

Every time I come back to this site, I just get more and more angry.


Given your constant invective and abuse, hurled in the direction of people who have shown you nothing but sympathy and support, and many of whom (myself included) who have contributed financially to help with this disaster, I have to say - Every time you come back to this site, I just get more and more angry.

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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655039 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 10:32 PM
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Hey, Pekin!

Nice to have you back.

Give 'em hell!

SG



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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655041 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 10:45 PM
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Hey, Pekin!

Nice to have you back.

Give 'em hell!

SG



I'm all for giving hell and all, but if Pekin's rants were shotgun blasts there would be no one left to help the victims of Katrina but themselves. And we all know how stupid those Southerners are.

BK

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Author: StockGoddess Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655042 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 10:51 PM
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I'm all for giving hell and all but if Pekin's rants were shotgun blasts there would be no one left to help the victims of Katrina but themselves. And we all know how stupid those Southerners are.

Hey BigKAhoona!

Hope you're wearing your virtual bulletproof vest after that one.

Give 'em hell!

8D

SG "Equally OK with everyone tonight"


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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655044 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 10:56 PM
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Hey BigKAhoona!

Hope you're wearing your virtual bulletproof vest after that one.



I can assure you it is as virtually bulletproof as my virtue itself.

BK

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Author: 5000fingers Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655045 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 11:06 PM
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Look, we already know you don't value a black life lost, or a black home lost, or a southern life lost, or a southern home lost, as much as a Yankee's life is valued.

But I think you should keep the bigotry to a dull roar...


I find that second sentence really odd, coming right after the first.

Every time I come back to this site, I just get more and more angry.

You really don't care, do you?

You really don't.


Actually, many people on this board have expressed concern, condolences, well-wishes, and support, not only to you personally, but to the victims of the tragedy in general. Why are you ignoring all of that, only to focus on certain perceived insensitivities of those whose lives were not as affected by the hurricane? Does it make you feel better to be angry for some reason, such that you would focus only on the negative?

Nonetheless, insurers and taxpayers stepped up to the plate. In some cases, survivors received 100s of thousands of dollars in lost earnings even though their family member died in an act specifically excluded under policy.

The families of people killed in Katrina aren't asking for anything like that. But we are asking that the damned insurance companies pick up the damned phone.


And are you sure after 9-11 the insurance companies phones weren't ringing off the hook as well? Are you really sure of that? I wonder just how it is you expect ANY company with only a few phones lines to respond to tens of thousands of incoming phone calls.

If you don't remember, it took a loooong time for the 9-11 survivors to receive anything from the government. A couple years, if I recall correctly. I don't think you can compare the situations, and draw the conclusions from it that you apparently have drawn. And you're expecting the same type of response after only a couple of weeks? Otherwise the whole darn country is just a bunch of uncaring, soulless bigots, racists and southerner-haters?

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Author: ARRazorback Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655051 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 11:46 PM
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And we all know how stupid those Southerners are.


I hope your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek as you were writing that.

ARR

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Author: Vimsicalfool One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655052 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 11:48 PM
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<
The families of people killed in Katrina aren't asking for anything like that. But we are asking that the damned insurance companies pick up the damned phone. We are asking that insurers honestly and quickly fulfill their contracts, instead of hiding behind the "fast busy" signal. And we are asking for the grants from FEMA that a Yankee would get, if this event happened in everloving New York City.

pekinrobin
>


Insurance Companies are not obliged to compensate Katrina victims as per the fine print. Further, they need only answer calls in the order received.

FEMA has 'a few' more years time to compensate Katrina Victims.

9/11 will never slip from the Front page of the media. Katrina, we gotta move on.

The Big Apple vs. The Big Easy...

And one lone southerener is battling centuries old prejudices to make millionnaires out of destitutes.

Seems like the plot of the next Grisham Novel to me.

-Vf
Loves thrillers with happy endings


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Author: LuceLu Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655053 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/14/2005 11:48 PM
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PR

My colleague's husband is an insurance adjuster. He was down in Florida last year after the hurricanes. He goes on site and meets with the policy holders and cuts a check right there. He most likely will be going down to LA. Regarding NO, he may be waiting for the "all clear" regarding the military/national guard/governor allowing people back into the city.

I have deep affection for my Southern compatriots. This isn't a Yankee/Rebel thing or a black/white thing. I think you need a quilt and a cup of tea. This situation is very traumatic no matter where it happens. I hope that you can get connected with your insurance company and get some relief soon. I don't know how the FEMA crisis help works but I think my MIL had even gotten some compensation for a generator and other damage to her home that the homeowner's didn't cover.

With all the property damage and displaced people, things look very negative now. Seems like help can't come fast enough and patience is a luxury no one can afford. Hold tight and take comfort in the loved ones around you. Remember this all is temporary and before you know it your life and neighborhood will be restored. The worst part of life in crisis is the seeming limbo you are stuck in waiting for things to come through.

I'm praying for you (for ins. co. to answer the phone, for the strength and support you will need and for a peaceful mind and that your immediate needs are met).

I'll pray for intercession from Our Lady of Prompt Succor http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/mary0015.htm

and St. Genevieve http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg10.htm

LuceLu


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Author: Live42Day Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655058 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 12:18 AM
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And we all know how stupid those Southerners are.

====================

Your from the south too, I bet!


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Author: TMFJeanie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655068 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 1:58 AM
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the same nation that gave hand-outs to the family of stock-brokers

...and secretaries, data-entry clerks, bus boys, waiters, kitchen staff, electricians, Port Authority desk clerks, security staff, unpaid interns, bookkeepers, receptionists, switchboard operators, janitors, messengers, flight attendants, police and firefighters.

Those towers employed a whole lot more than stock brokers and bond traders. The victims represented a huge cross-section of humanity from all classes, races, and nationalities. Many were poor, many were black, many were the sole source of support for their children, and some may even have been southerners.

I will never look upon the compensation they received as a hand-out, any more than I begrudge the monetary help that will eventually flow towards our fellow citizens in LA, MS & AL.

It must be very hard to wait; I can't imagine the frustration you're going through right now. But you are alive, and I'm assuming you didn't suffer the loss of a loved one during this tragedy. Everyone compensated from the 9/11 Fund did. Worse, they had to watch them die on national television.

Jeanie

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Author: MrCheeryO Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655070 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:54 AM
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..Insurance companies are another issue entirely. They are NOT charities. They should promptly pay what they CONTRACTUALLY owe, and nothing more. This is what Mann said (what is so "outrageous" about that? ..

I don't think anyone expects charity. There are possible legal issues on Katrina claims and flood coverage whether anyone, including the Berkshire Hathaway board, wants to admit it or not. A legal issue to be decided, a TMF article notwithstanding. Courts will determine those issues based on the facts of what exactly happened and the proximate cause of the damage.

WBuffetJr writes:

...What are you basing this on? Most insurance companies (even including Berkshire Hathaway, run by some of the smartest guys in the biz) had no exclusions at all for terrorism or damage caused by any time of biological, chemical, or nuclear disaster/attack. They do now, but none did on 9/11....

Actually the insurers did have an exclusion, in effect. The insurance companies immediately ran to Congress and the taxpayers and received huge financial bailouts post 9/11 as did other businesses. That's how business is done these days, you claim an overriding public interest and Congress cuts the checks and writes the legislation. With the help of industry lawyer/lobbyists.

It's just sad that you see articles at TMF that deliberately ignore that and posts from the Berkshire Hathaway board about 19th century capitalism and beautiful creative destruction. The American taxpayer is on the hook for potentially 100 billion dollars if there is another terrorist attack. The name of the law is the Terrorism Risk Insurance Act.

http://www.namic.org/newsIssues/Terrorism.asp

That is the "free market" when it comes to catastrophe insurance today. There is already industry talk of a stronger "public--private" bond when it comes to major natural catastrophe exposure. Time will tell whether it follows the 9/11 TRIA precedent of corporate bailouts.

Wouldn't be so bad to see the corporate welfare handed out so freely if many of the same folks weren't completely in favor of "free markets" when it came to Bush's decision to suspend federal labor law, Davis Bacon wage floors--benefiting insurers and reinsurers. Then again, nothing new about rank hypocrisy when it comes to American business and corporate welfare.







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Author: maracle Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655072 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 3:32 AM
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Actually the insurance companies did have exclusions for war and other such attacks. I still have my State Farm policy from 1999 (don't ask me why---I am cleaning out my house and finding all sorts of crap). It specifically stated nuclear attacks and other damages due to war. Now how that played out considering Congress had not declared war I don't know. Farmers had the same language buried in their policies.

I doubt there was any basis in law to consider the 9/11 attacks an act of war. We have all collectively decided to call it that, but I really doubt you could make a serious argument that it was an act of war the way we defined it prior to 9/11 (which is the only way that matters).

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Author: impolite Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655075 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 7:23 AM
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I doubt there was any basis in law to consider the 9/11 attacks an act of war. We have all collectively decided to call it that, but I really doubt you could make a serious argument that it was an act of war the way we defined it prior to 9/11 (which is the only way that matters).

Just as an aside, I worked for a reinuserer on 9/11 that lost a butt-load of money in the terrorist attacks.

Effective October 1st that year, a change in terms went out on all our policies excluding acts of terrorism. War was already excluded, but as we hadn't declared war, it didn't really matter.

Terrorism is now probably written as an exclusion in every business policy, and most likely a good majority of all of our personal policies as well.

impolite

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655079 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 7:46 AM
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"Insurance companies are another issue entirely. They are NOT charities."

Insurance companies love to collect their premiums, but sure don't want to pay out. The cry poverty (oh boo-hoo, we have to pay out claims) but they have more money than God, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They don't have actuaries and statisticians doing all kind of sophisticated analyses, and all of a sudden they aren't prepared to pay out claims. What a bunch of crap.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655080 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 7:49 AM
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CORRECTION:

I MEANT TO SAY "They have actuaries and statisticians doing all kind of sophisticated analyses, and all of a sudden they aren't prepared to pay out claims. What a bunch of crap."


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Author: SuaSponteMark Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655083 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 8:25 AM
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Nonetheless, insurers and taxpayers stepped up to the plate.

Actually, as a taxpayer my arm was twisted. Hardly to be confused with "stepped up to the plate."

Mark, still unsure of how a 9/11 victim's death is worth 7 figures, but a Khobar Towers or Oklahoma City bombing victim's death is a footnote.

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Author: pondee619 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655103 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:03 AM
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But we are asking that the damned insurance companies pick up the damned phone. We are asking that insurers honestly and quickly fulfill their contracts

And that is all the insurance companies should be required to do. Fulfill thier contractual obligations. Nothing more-nothing less.

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Author: karenlj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655104 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:11 AM
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Mark, still unsure of how a 9/11 victim's death is worth 7 figures, but a Khobar Towers or Oklahoma City bombing victim's death is a footnote.

The government decided to make payments to the families of 9/11 victims so that those families would not sue the airlines and effectively bankrupt them.

"To apply to the fund bereaved relatives must waive their right to sue anyone other than terrorists." http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,780001,00.html


Karen


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Author: xtn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655105 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:11 AM
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Very sad. I had always assumed the insurance company would know I was their client from their computers and I wouldn't need the insurance papers physically in hand to file a claim.


See my post in a thread from two weeks ago:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=22971092

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Author: WBuffettJr Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655106 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:14 AM
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Just as an aside, I worked for a reinuserer on 9/11 that lost a butt-load of money in the terrorist attacks.

Effective October 1st that year, a change in terms went out on all our policies excluding acts of terrorism. War was already excluded, but as we hadn't declared war, it didn't really matter.

Terrorism is now probably written as an exclusion in every business policy, and most likely a good majority of all of our personal policies as well.

impolite


Yes, this is exactly correct and is what I was alluding to in my original post. No one had exclusions against a couple of brainwashed Muslims slamming airplanes into office buildings, but now insurance companies recognize that as a real risk with real costs and those costs have either been excluded from the policy or added with an added premium to cover the extra risk.

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Author: eaglehaslanded Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655110 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:23 AM
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The government decided to make payments to the families of 9/11 victims so that those families would not sue the airlines and effectively bankrupt them.

And we all know how well that worked out:

"Four of the nation's major airlines are now in Chapter 11. Delta and Northwest join United Airlines, the nation's No. 2 carrier, which has been in Chapter 11 for nearly three years, and US Airways, which is preparing to emerge from Chapter 11 and merge with America West"
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/15/BUG8OENLEE1.DTL

Adding AA to Chapter 11 would've been a whole lot cheaper than the bailout+payoffs, I'm sure.

Another quality job by government intervention!

eag

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Author: PanemetCircenses Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655111 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:29 AM
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Adding AA to Chapter 11 would've been a whole lot cheaper than the bailout+payoffs, I'm sure.

Another quality job by government intervention!


The airlines were in deep kimchee well before 9/11. There are systemic problems with the industry and keeping the dead walking by repeated forays into bankruptcy and government aid is just prolonging the problem.

--B+C

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Author: eaglehaslanded Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655113 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:33 AM
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The airlines were in deep kimchee well before 9/11. There are systemic problems with the industry and keeping the dead walking by repeated forays into bankruptcy and government aid is just prolonging the problem.

Bankruptcy good, gov't aid bad. They need to keep going into chapter 11 until all the unions are busted. Only way to control costs. Pensions probably need to take a big hit, too.

eag

PS what does "B+C" mean?

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Author: PanemetCircenses Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655116 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:39 AM
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Bankruptcy good, gov't aid bad. They need to keep going into chapter 11 until all the unions are busted. Only way to control costs. Pensions probably need to take a big hit, too.

Actually, I would argue that there needs to be a liqudation or two. I don't think that the unions necessarily need to go away, but at the very least the operations need to be streamlined, some capacity taken out of the system, and a greater proportion of capacity has to be redirected to arenas where the legacies are shielded from direct competition from the discounters (e.g., International routes).

PS what does "B+C" mean?

Bread & Circuses -- from Juvenal "Duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses", roughly translated: "The people long for only two things, bread and circuses."

--B+C

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Author: DollarSignz Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655118 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:42 AM
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Somebody should pay.... and pay and pay.

As long as it's not you.

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Author: eaglehaslanded Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655119 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:44 AM
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Bread & Circuses -- from Juvenal "Duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses", roughly translated: "The people long for only two things, bread and circuses."

Nice. Just another reason I should've take latin in high school.

eag

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Author: TMFOtter Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655120 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 10:45 AM
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Pekinrobin-

A few points of reference.

I am southern. Born and raised in the state of North Carolina. Spent summers picking beans down on my grandfather's farm. I've lived through the devastation of several hurricanes.

My wife is from south Florida, and her family was deeply impacted by Hurricane Andrew.

I live in the south NOW. On this point, you're simply wrong.

I've given money, we've looked into ways of taking people in to our house in Virginia. I've watched the death and destruction, and I've cried for people. Yesterday the family of one of my colleagues was here in the office -- they're displaced from New Orleans and don't know what they're going to be going back to, or when they'll be allowed to return.

Coming from North Carolina, I've seen more than enough hurricane damage to last a lifetime. At this moment, I'm sorta wondering whether our family's property in Pawley's Island, South Carolina looks like -- whether it has managed to weather Ohpelia, just as it has Isabel, Dennis, Hugo, Jeanne, David, and a score of others.

I understand you are hurt, but you're also wrong. You have no reason nor standing to lash out at me. And for you to call me a racist is simple unacceptable. I won't stand for it. (A hint: my wife and children are of a different racial background than I. Yes, in my home state, I'm a miscegnator.)

Had you limited your blinding rage just a little, you might have noticed this line in the article:

"Let us be clear about this: Failure to pay legitimate claims is unconscionable. We agree with the spirit of contra preferentum, and as consumers we are hopeful that the state insurance commissions take an extraordinarily hard stance on companies that try to avoid claims. Solvency issues are no excuse.

Contract law is what I was talking about, and it isn't built on "heart," "soul," or "kindness." The law is the application of a set of rules, absent of passion. Period.

And for states to try to do an end around on the contract law is simply intolerable. Insurance companies shouldn't have to pay for that which was specifically excluded from their policies by contract law. This is simple.

If you disagree on this point, fine. What WILL happen then is that insurance rates --- MOSTLY IN THE SOUTH -- are going to skyrocket. What's worse, you should look into what happened when the State of New Jersey tried to force GEICO to limit the rates it charged certain classes of drivers.

GEICO abandoned the state. Wouldn't write a single policy more It left those damn Yankees to get their insurance someplace else. Insurance companies will abandon Mississippi. I'm just telling you that's what WILL happen if they cannot reasonably determine their risk to provide coverage.

Insurance companies can do better. But you know what? They're also pretty overwhelmed at the moment. They don't simply keep a number of customer service reps on hand to handle the volume caused by something like this. If the insurers start denying legitimate claims, you may rest assured that we'll be screaming about it.

I don't think Southerners are stupid. But I won't accept your invitation to bite you, either.

Bill Mann

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Author: TMFMmbop Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655124 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 11:00 AM
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Hey! I'm not racist either.
Tim

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655125 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 11:08 AM
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We pay one "victim," now everyone EXPECTS his handout, too.

It's called precedent. Get used to it.

I have given thousands of dollars in cash and equipment to hurricane relief. I have given over 100 hours of volunteer time (so far).

And you remind us of it every chance you get.

Give it a break.

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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655135 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 12:16 PM
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>And we all know how stupid those Southerners are.


I hope your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek as you were writing that.

ARR





No, seriously. Some of us really aren't all that bright.

Bless our hearts.

BK

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655141 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 12:45 PM
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The airlines were in deep kimchee well before 9/11. There are systemic problems with the industry and keeping the dead walking by repeated forays into bankruptcy and government aid is just prolonging the problem.

Commercial passenger airlines collectively have had a lousy return on investment throughout their history.

Look at how badly commercial passenger trains have done, too.

I think this is in part because having this service becomes a prestige item for a city, and therefore a political issue.


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Author: BattleAxes Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655146 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 12:53 PM
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We are not stupid

Well, some of us aren't. Most of us do appreciate the warmth and compassion shown by America and the world in our time of need. Some of us would rather throw stones in our grief.

instead of hiding behind the "fast busy" signal

Considering there are over a million and a half people calling maybe a few hundred insurance companies - they will be overloaded. On top of that, if you're anywhere in, south, or east of Baton Rouge, the phone system is completely overloaded. It has been taking 50 or more tries just to make a cell call. That seems to be working itself out slowly. In addition many phone trunks ran through New Orleans, so long distance lines have been hard to get, as well. If you have access, try your insurance company's website for contact info. Many have setup call centers with new numbers for Katrina victims.

Look, we already know you don't value a black life lost, or a black home lost, or a southern life lost, or a southern home lost, as much as a Yankee's life is valued.

You really need to chill. You must not have seen the volunteers and military personnel working their a$$es off trying to save everyone they could - black, white, asian, southern, northern, tourist, long time resident, newbie, even lawyers. The biggest field hospital in history was here in Baton Rouge, and they worked to save everyone without regard to anything but who needed care most urgently.

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on race. I haven't seen any racism except from people foaming at the mouth that there is somehow racism involved when there clearly isn't.

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655147 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 12:58 PM
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I haven't seen any racism

Probably not surprising.

It's been pretty well established that the two races disagree on what racism really is...

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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655163 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 1:44 PM
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"It's called precedent. Get used to it."

Its called idiotic policy and I won't accept it or get used to it. You can meekly roll over when a wrong is done- I choose to try and stop it.

"And you remind us of it every chance you get."

Maybe you should spend less time whining about the generosity of others and do something to help people for once?

Or would you just rather be a bitter old man b*tching all the time?

jb


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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655164 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 1:48 PM
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"I think this is in part because having this service becomes a prestige item for a city, and therefore a political issue."

Rather than propping up failing companies (Air or Rail), the government just needs to allow a "shake out." We obviously have more capacity that customers.

Let one or two of the badly managed airlines fail, and the rest will all DO BETTER. Keep 7 or 8 "propped up" and you will always have 7 or 8 bad companies needing cash infusions from the government.

As long as their is demand for the service, it will not disappear. If, for example, Delta is allowed to fold, all of its flights for which there is demand will be picked up by another airline.

jb


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Author: TeraGram Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655165 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 1:50 PM
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Or would you just rather be a bitter old man b*tching all the time?


Bullsfan is an old man?

- T, once again projected her own image onto anothe poster. All Bulls Fans are like me, no? :)

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655166 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:03 PM
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Apparently one of them thinks it is everything, including hurricanes.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655167 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:04 PM
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Apparently one of them thinks it is everything, including hurricanes.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was racism...

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655170 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:14 PM
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Maybe you should spend less time whining about the generosity of others and do something to help people for once?

I'm "whining" though thats not what it is, about your braggedocio.

Give it a break.

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655171 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:15 PM
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Bullsfan is an old man?

Not at my friend. Not at all.

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655179 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:32 PM
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Look, we already know you don't value a black life lost, or a black home lost, or a southern life lost, or a southern home lost, as much as a Yankee's life is valued.

But I think you should keep the bigotry to a dull roar.


Does anyone see the paradox about the accusation of not caring about a black life or a southern's life and then the reference to Yankee's - and then the request to keep the bigotry down to a dull roar? Who just called it out?

The lack of heart, soul, and kindness here has truly been amazing and a lesson to me, because I would not have believed that the same nation that gave hand-outs to the family of stock-brokers would close its hearts to the families of the destitute.

Were the hundreds of New York City firefighters who died stock brokers? Were the hundred or so restaurant employees at Windows of the World stock brokers? What about the building maintenance employees? Building security? Port authority building reps? NYC EMS and police? How about the interns? The office assistants? How about the people trapped in the collapsed subway station? The receptionist in the front office? How many of the power and elite REALLY died in 9/11?

If anyone is showing incredible insensitivity, a victim mentality, and saying, "keep them flat footed goombas from Washington off of my property," out of one side of your mouth and, "where is my damn government check," out of the other - it's you.

Hey - bad things happen to good people. If you're house is sitting below sea level, and you need pumps on a fulltime basis to keep the city from flooding on a sunny day, and the ground is so wet that people are buried ABOVE the ground, AND you don't have flood insurance that is my fault how? That is my insurers duty to pick up the tab, how?

I lost my job, was un/under employed for 14 months. Went through a nasty custody battle with a psycho that bled me dry of every last penny, and dealt with my own major illness and that of my son - both of us at different times in the same year with long term hospitalization. All of this over a two year period of time. I'm up to my ass in debt - but I'm not whining about Uncle Sam bailing me out, I'm not going to bankruptcy court and I'm finding my own path. I kept the house, I kept my babies clothed and fed, I kept the lights on, the phone on and a car in the driveway. It's HARD, it's DAMN HARD, but bad things happen to good people, it's how you react next that sets the stage.

If this is the mentality of those in the south, to throw their hands in the air and go, I give up because no one seems to care, well I don't know what to say. I care, I've given...don't know what else you want.

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Author: karenlj Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655182 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:42 PM
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I would like to see all of us cut Pekinrobin some slack. Okay, a lot of slack.

We know she can have communication issues in the best of times. And, for her, these are the worst of times. Explain, if you wish, that you are not uncaring or racist and that you do not support insurance companies that deal in poor faith or refuse legitimate claims.

Beyond that, maybe this just isn't the best time to lecture her. Perhaps we should just treat Pekinrobin the way I would want to be treated if I had just lost everything, seen many others lose everything, seen the city I loved half in ruins, and knew that hundreds of my friends and neighbors were now dead. I would be 'on my last nerve' and I would be operating very close to hysteria and would probably appreciate it if others understood that I was well beyond logic and sensibility.

Karen



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Author: MethodicalFool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655185 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:51 PM
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Beyond that, maybe this just isn't the best time to lecture her. Perhaps we should just treat Pekinrobin the way I would want to be treated if I had just lost everything, seen many others lose everything, seen the city I loved half in ruins, and knew that hundreds of my friends and neighbors were now dead. I would be 'on my last nerve' and I would be operating very close to hysteria and would probably appreciate it if others understood that I was well beyond logic and sensibility.

i can only speak for myself of course but if i lost neighbors and my city was half in ruins, i wouldn't be spending time on this board. i'd be busy trying to rebuild my life and help out with the destruction. and trying to find some time to sleep.

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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655186 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:54 PM
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Actually, just over 2700 were killed according the latest figures. They stated that this past Sunday during observances.

I could be mistaken, but IIRC, 2700 were killed at the WTC, when you add the PA plane crash and pentagon deaths it's about 3000.

2old


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Author: chewiekiki Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655188 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:56 PM
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I would like to see all of us cut Pekinrobin some slack. Okay, a lot of slack.

Karen, we are.



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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655189 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:56 PM
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It's been pretty well established that the two races disagree on what racism really is...

So what is racism? Help us understand. Please keep in mind if you make reference to responses to Hurricane Katrina that you likely don't really know what some folks are doing to help.

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Author: Sarcasman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655191 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:58 PM
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Actually, just over 2700 were killed according the latest figures. They stated that this past Sunday during observances.

I could be mistaken, but IIRC, 2700 were killed at the WTC, when you add the PA plane crash and pentagon deaths it's about 3000.



The eternal quest for bragging rights in all things knows no bounds.

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Author: SuaSponteMark Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655192 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 2:58 PM
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I would like to see all of us cut Pekinrobin some slack.

no

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Author: 2old4bs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655200 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 3:20 PM
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The eternal quest for bragging rights in all things knows no bounds.

This has nothing whatsover to do with 'bragging rights'--I was simply correcting an inaccurately stated fact. I would have done the same if someone misquoted an interest rate.

Keep your delusions of grandeur to yourself.

2old



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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655202 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 3:26 PM
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"if they cannot reasonably determine their risk to provide coverage."

Hey Bill - I agree with you post 100%. But the insurance companies are supposed to be the experts; if they can't determine the risk (which I don't believe), why are they in the business in the first place?

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Author: Sarcasman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655204 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 3:29 PM
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Keep your delusions of grandeur to yourself.


Oh, believe me - they're no delusions.

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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655217 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 3:51 PM
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I don't think Southerners are stupid. But I won't accept your invitation to bite you, either.

Bill Mann



You could have at least thanked her for the Bill Mann thread.

BK

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655218 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 3:53 PM
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Hey Bill - I agree with you post 100%. But the insurance companies are supposed to be the experts; if they can't determine the risk (which I don't believe), why are they in the business in the first place?

Ok, John. Listen carefully. It works like this.

New Orleans resident calls State Farm, asks to buy a homeowners policy.
State Farm gathers information and offers to write a policy. The policy they offer our New Orleans resident, like most all homeowners policies in the United States, specifically excludes damage from flooding. Flood insurance in the United States is relatively expensive and only available from FEMA. Google "flood insurance fema" and you'll find all sorts of information on the subject. So anyway, our New Orleans resident knows this, buys the State Farm policy because it meets the requirements of his mortgage company, and passes on the flood insurance. State Farm has issued a contract to indemnify, or pay, their insured if the insured suffers certain named losses-fire, wind, tornado, etc. State Farm believes they have charged enough premium to make an adequate profit and pay off claims they have agreed to insure against.

Fast forward to Hurricane Katrina. Flooding destroys many homes, thousands die, many are in shelters. They call their insurance agents and insurance companies. Adjusters go out and look at their homes and determine by well-established industry methods in use throughout the country and accepted universally that the damage was caused by flooding. Sorry, the insurance folks say, we can't pay since we didn't agree to cover you against this particular peril. Not in the contract.

But all these folks cry and make like Pekinrobin and go to their state insurance commissioners and lawyers descend upon Mississippi and Louisiana like a plague of locusts and the juries are all composed of Mississippians and Louisianians and the insurance companies lose billions to cover perils they had specifically excluded from coverage. T

The insurance companies accurately underwrote for the perils they were insuring against, but the insureds now would like to change all the rules after the game is over.

Does that help?




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Author: TMFOtter Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655220 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 3:55 PM
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But the insurance companies are supposed to be the experts; if they can't determine the risk (which I don't believe), why are they in the business in the first place?

Pay attention to the inputs here. Insurance companies are excellent at modeling dollar damages for X event in Y place.

But no one, and I mean no one, can sufficiently judge risk when one of the things that *might* happen is that a legislator or court of competent jurisdiction changes the definition of what a "flood" is, or a "volcanic eruption" is, or anything elsemthat might cause large numbers of claims.

And if they can't model it, they'll either just assume worst case and charge for it, or they will leave the market.

Bill Mann

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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655227 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 4:03 PM
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"I'm "whining" though thats not what it is, about your braggedocio."

If you want to use big words, please learn to spell them correctly. Its "braggadocio."

You might also want to learn the meaning of the word. From the good folks at dictionary.com:

brag·ga·do·ci·o ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brg-ds-, -sh-, -sh)
n. pl. brag·ga·do·ci·os

Empty or pretentious bragging.
A swaggering, cocky manner.

What, exactly, is "cocky" or "swaggering" about my original statement which read: "I'm from the South. I have given thousands of dollars in cash and equipment to hurricane relief. I have given over 100 hours of volunteer time (so far). A lot of people have voluntarily put their lives on hold to help out, though they certainly were under no obligation to do so."?

I'm not a real subtle guy- when I'm bragging, it will be abundantly clear. If I was trying to be pretentious, cocky or swaggering, I'd say something like "I'm better educated than you" (which is true) or "I'm a millionaire and you aren't!" (also true)- those statements could be considered pretentious, cocky, and/or swaggering. However, my original statement was not. I hope you have the ability to understand the distinction, though I'm probably being a bit optimistic.

I'm glad I had this opportunity to further your education! (Yes, this line IS a bit cocky)

jb

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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655230 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 4:11 PM
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"The insurance companies accurately underwrote for the perils they were insuring against, but the insureds now would like to change all the rules after the game is over. "

Precisely.

Thats why its very important to READ the policy. A number of items aren't covered, and the policies often change from year to year at renewal time. Case in point, a lot of Texas insurers specifically excluded "mold" damage a couple of years ago when hordes of lawyers started getting in the "mold" business (where was all this deadly mold before 2000?).

jb


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Author: JustWhoIAm Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655231 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 4:14 PM
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Case in point, a lot of Texas insurers specifically excluded "mold" damage a couple of years ago when hordes of lawyers started getting in the "mold" business (where was all this deadly mold before 2000?).


There was no deadly mold until Bush was elected. I'm sure you realize that everything wrong with the U.S.--including our history of slavery--is Bush's fault.

Keith

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Author: Minxie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655241 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 4:37 PM
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You must not have seen the volunteers and military personnel working their a$$es off trying to save everyone they could - black, white, asian, southern, northern, tourist, long time resident, newbie, even lawyers.

Hi, BattleAxes,

I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play on TV) but I couldn't help but rec you for this. Thanks for the laugh!

Minxie

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655247 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 4:53 PM
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"Does that help?"


Maybe I asked the question the wrong way. Bill Mann said in his post,

"I'm just telling you that's what WILL happen if they cannot reasonably determine their risk to provide coverage."

So I'm asking the question - if they cannot reasonably determine their risk, and they are the supposed professionals, who the heck can? Why then are they in the business? I'm not arguing that they shouldn't pay for things that were excluded - I agree 100% on that. I'm questioning Bill's statement.


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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655248 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 4:54 PM
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Adjusters go out and look at their homes and determine by well-established industry methods in use throughout the country and accepted universally that the damage was caused by flooding. Sorry, the insurance folks say, we can't pay since we didn't agree to cover you against this particular peril. Not in the contract.

But all these folks cry and make like Pekinrobin and go to their state insurance commissioners and lawyers descend upon Mississippi and Louisiana like a plague of locusts and the juries are all composed of Mississippians and Louisianians and the insurance companies lose billions to cover perils they had specifically excluded from coverage.


Hmmm. Was it a flood? I mean, it wasn't the storm surge that swamped these homes. It was a levee break. I wonder exactly how those policies are written.

I'd test it in court too...

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655249 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 4:55 PM
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If you want to use big words, please learn to spell them correctly.

You know you've won an argument when the other guy reduces himself to a lengthy post dissecting nothing other than your spelling.

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Author: PanemetCircenses Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655251 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 5:01 PM
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Hmmm. Was it a flood? I mean, it wasn't the storm surge that swamped these homes. It was a levee break. I wonder exactly how those policies are written.

I'd be willing to bet a lot that this would be considered to be a flood. Of course, that's not the real point, is it? After all, these are "big, greedy insurance companies" and things like "law" and contracts", well, they're only paper, right?

--B+C

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Author: nerokitty Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655254 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 5:05 PM
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"Insurance companies are another issue entirely. They are NOT charities."

Insurance companies love to collect their premiums, but sure don't want to pay out. The cry poverty (oh boo-hoo, we have to pay out claims) but they have more money than God, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They don't have actuaries and statisticians doing all kind of sophisticated analyses, and all of a sudden they aren't prepared to pay out claims. What a bunch of crap.

The entire post was why should insurance companies be forced to pay for claims that were not covered under the home owner's policy?

I lived in Southern California. I had earthquake insurance. If I had had damage, I would expect coverage. I now live in Oregon, I still have earthquake insurance as well as flood insurance. I am prepared and my insurance company will compensate me under the agreement for which I paid.

Just because a company is profitable doesn't mean that they are a charity or should be forced to do more than a homeowner contracted.

Nero


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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655255 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 5:07 PM
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I'd be willing to bet a lot that this would be considered to be a flood.

Me too. I was just postulating.

However a quick trip to Google reveals:

Your homeowner's policy does cover you in the event of wind damage, wind-blown rain damage, fire and theft. It is up to you to prove that the damage that was sustained to your home was caused by wind and not flood waters.

Claims adjusters are going to have a hard time figuring out how to tell the difference between wind-driven water damage and true flooding.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/14/pf/saving/willis_tips/



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Author: PanemetCircenses Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655257 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 5:15 PM
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The entire post was why should insurance companies be forced to pay for claims that were not covered under the home owner's policy?

Why argue with a self-described troll? johnmoni understands that perfectly well. He's just trying out his standard "performance art."

--B+C

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Author: nerokitty Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655259 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 5:20 PM
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Claims adjusters are going to have a hard time figuring out how to tell the difference between wind-driven water damage and true flooding.

I don't think that will be hard at all. NO didn't flood until Katrina passed and the levee broke, flooding the homes.

Nero


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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655262 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 5:34 PM
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if they cannot reasonably determine their risk, and they are the supposed professionals, who the heck can? Why then are they in the business? I'm not arguing that they shouldn't pay for things that were excluded - I agree 100% on that. I'm questioning Bill's statement.

The insurance companies can determine their risk as long as the rules aren't changed after the game is over. If the rules are subject to change after the fact, no one can determine the risk. If they have to work in a business environment where the rules are subject to change after the fact, then then they will exit the business in those states, as they GEICO did in New Jersey.

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655263 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 5:38 PM
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I don't think that will be hard at all. NO didn't flood until Katrina passed and the levee broke, flooding the homes.

The article tells how to discern the difference.

But what if a home suffered damage from both? What % of the homes worth is the insurance company going to be obligated to pay?

Thats whats going to get hairy. And when the insurance companies start insisting that they're only going to pay this or that much---watch the recriminations fly.

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655273 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:07 PM
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Your homeowner's policy does cover you in the event of wind damage, wind-blown rain damage, fire and theft. It is up to you to prove that the damage that was sustained to your home was caused by wind and not flood waters.

I'm no insurance adjuster, and I'm not a meterologist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express and was a meterological junkie through my junior year of high school (that's when I learned that REAL meterologists work in less thand desirable locations and make squat).

A storm SURGE of a hurricane is by definition wind driven water. The pressure change and circulation creates a dome of water under the hurricane that then is pushed ahead of the storm as it makes landfall. So in my book, one could argue that storm surge is wind driven water.

Flooding on the other hand is just that - e.g. a levee break.

So, because I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I would think if you live in Biloxi, Mississippi, and your home was destroyed by storm surge, you have an arguement that it should be covered. If you live in metro New Orleans and your home was flooded due to a levee break - your boned unless you have Federal flood insurance.

Your mileage may vary.

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655274 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:09 PM
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After the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, business owners paid painters to doctor photographs submitted to insurance companies to make earthquake damage look like fire damage.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655276 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:11 PM
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Your homeowner's policy does cover you in the event of wind damage, wind-blown rain damage, fire and theft. It is up to you to prove that the damage that was sustained to your home was caused by wind and not flood waters.

...

A storm SURGE of a hurricane is by definition wind driven water. The pressure change and circulation creates a dome of water under the hurricane that then is pushed ahead of the storm as it makes landfall. So in my book, one could argue that storm surge is wind driven water.


But wind-driven water is not necessarily wind-blown rain. And from the quoted paragraph, the only wind-driven water that is necessarily covered is wind-blown rain.

So a storm surge wouldn't necessarily be covered... unless it was occurring in rain that had fallen on the street. (Once the rain makes it to a lake or stream, it's lake water or stream water.)

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655279 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:13 PM
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But wind-driven water is not necessarily wind-blown rain. And from the quoted paragraph, the only wind-driven water that is necessarily covered is wind-blown rain.

So a storm surge wouldn't necessarily be covered... unless it was occurring in rain that had fallen on the street. (Once the rain makes it to a lake or stream, it's lake water or stream water.)


Didn't read that part - so if you're in Biloxi, and your home was taken out by storm surge - your boned.

Milligram46
(going back to sleep at the Holiday Inn Express to get smarter)

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Author: Ezeiza Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655282 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:20 PM
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The thing about insurance is that it's only viable - to the insurer and insured - if enough people think it is worth the cost and believe its necessary. That is, homeowner's insurance is only cheap if everyone buys it and people will only buy it if it's cheap enough and they think they need it. Say you pay premiums year after year and evenutally there's a disaster and you rightly make a claim that is paid accordingly. How would you feel if your neighbor had never paid a single dollar for insurance but collected the same amount of donations as your insurance payout? You may be less inclined to keep paying insurance premiums going forward. And the message that goes out to the rest of the country is "don't worry about buying insurance, the government, charities and the public will bail you out if there is a disaster." So less people buy insurance, which makes the premiums more expensive, so less people buy insurance and so on.

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Author: rsimbob Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655284 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:30 PM
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Mark, still unsure of how a 9/11 victim's death is worth 7 figures, but a Khobar Towers or Oklahoma City bombing victim's death is a footnote.

Mark,

The explanation's easy, and I think you know it, but it's hard to accept.

You start with real suffering, and then you add shock and the fear that it could be anybody else next. All three events had real suffering. But Khobar affected military personnel in Saudi Arabia, reducing the shock and confining the fear. Oklahoma City had the shock, but lost the fear when it turned out to be the isolated act of a small group of home-grown extremists. Oklahoma was also a government building, like the Pentagon, which seems to have been forgotten in most 9/11 remembrances. And the numbers on 9/11 were larger.

But it was publicity and politics that made the difference. The twin towers fell in the heart of Manhattan. Civilian jetliners full of transcontinental domestic passengers were crashed into private icons of our economic power on live TV on a weekday morning, where they burned into a clear sky and collapsed to rubble. And there were other planes crashing elsewhere, including at the Pentagon. And who knew what else would happen. And it was a plot by foreign terrorists infiltrated among us in our open society who pledged that it was just the beginning. Shock, fear, anger, sorrow and compassion.

Who could say no? No to victims who became heroes by acclamation? Not only could we not say no. Not only could we not separate victims from heroes. But we couldn't resist finding the opportunity to use the heroes. We developed new icons to be invoked for whatever purpose we chose.

Politicians fought to be generous to the heroes. To have their pictures taken at ground zero. To attach their names to legislation. To speak with somber anger. To keep fear alive. It was worth almost any cost.

And nobody worked the opportunity better than President Bush. Somehow, 9/11 took this floundering president, whose administration showed no more likelihood of success than his failed business ventures, and gave him an angle he could play to ride the momentum of events to create the impression that he was a real president.

Momentum created both the payments and the result of the 2004 election. The former's just an anomaly we can put behind us with a discrete expense, the latter's a continuing extension of that disaster for which it appears we will pay for generations. The legacy of Bush's reelection is the real victory the terrorists didn't even know they wanted.

Simbob

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655287 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:39 PM
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My homeowners policy is pretty clear.

Exclusions:

1.c. Water damage, meaning:

1.Flood, surface water, waves, tidal water, overflow of a body of
water, or spray from any of these, whether or not driven by wind, or:

2. Water below the surface of the ground, including water which exerts pressure on or seeps through or leaks through a building, sidewalk, driveway, foundation, swimming pool or other structure.

My homeowners insurance is through USAA, a large, well-established, reputable company which has served my family and my parents for almost forty five years. I don't think I'd go to court if my home were damaged by a breached levee, because I think I'd be wrong. You can do anything you want, Bullsfan, but the law and the facts would be against you.

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Author: Milligram46 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655289 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:41 PM
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1.c. Water damage, meaning:

1.Flood, surface water, waves, tidal water, overflow of a body of
water, or spray from any of these, whether or not driven by wind, or:

2. Water below the surface of the ground, including water which exerts pressure on or seeps through or leaks through a building, sidewalk, driveway, foundation, swimming pool or other structure.


Holy smokes!

Milligram46
Also a USAA policy holder who is going to re-read his policy tonight

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655291 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 6:51 PM
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If nothing else, this thread just saved me $60.00

I used to own two houses, and I sold one a while back. There was an endorsement on my homeowners policy reflecting the fact that I owned an unoccupied residential policy that basically protected me if someone broke into my empty house and injured themselves. What a dumb thing to have to have insurance against.

Anyway, somehow I failed to notice that they hadn't taken the charge for that off of my new policy, which renews next month. They cancelled the policy covering the unoccupied home, but not the endorsement on my residence. So when I was reviewing my policy as part of this discussion, I noticed that I was paying for coverage I no longer needed. USAA cancelled the coverage retroactive to when I sold my second home and is crediting me back the full amount.



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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655301 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 7:19 PM
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You can do anything you want, Bullsfan, but the law and the facts would be against you.

They would...if I had the same policy as you. I wouldn't do anything unethical.

Yet and still, I'd watch the goings on very carefully so that I made sure I got the best bang for my policies buck. No sense in seeing the neighbors get 70% while I shuffle along with 35%...if I could ethically, reasonably and responsably get the same.

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Author: MrsPoppy Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655312 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 8:43 PM
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Hmmm. Was it a flood? I mean, it wasn't the storm surge that swamped these homes. It was a levee break. I wonder exactly how those policies are written.

I'd test it in court too...


That's probably the most interesting point I've heard yet on the subject.

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Author: SuaSponteMark Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655313 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 8:49 PM
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Bob,

You're a smart guy. I'm aware of most of this. On a micro scale, it's why we're interested in the loss of a prom queen looking white girl - Natalee Holloway (?) - but a disappearance of most are, as I said, footnotes. It's BS.

You're further correct about the Pentagon, and flight 93. My BIL's father died on that flight, traveling to CA to recover the remains of one of his other sons, so I have fairly good access to how this was handled.

It still pisses me off, but I'm a pragmatist, infernally logical, cold, robotic, cynical, and any other number of adjectives tossed at me by fans and foes alike - often using these words alternately as accolades and insults, correspondingly. I'm not "nice."

I shouldn't have written "how" their deaths were worth 7 figures, but rather what justifies this. Nothing, really, but nobody wants to hear this, just like nobody wants to hear that insurers are going to run like the wind from MS and LA. New Jersey? Car insurance? Ha...wait until the word "uninsurable" is redefined on the gulf cost.

Mark

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655331 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 11:19 PM
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"Why argue with a self-described troll?"

PanamaCircuses can bite me.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655333 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 11:23 PM
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"After all, these are "big, greedy insurance companies" and things like "law" and contracts", well, they're only paper, right?"

People sue for a freakin' hangnail in this country - why should this be any different?

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655335 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/15/2005 11:28 PM
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"create the impression that he was a real president."

Never mind that the majority voted for him, I guess.

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655356 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 1:30 AM
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pekinrobin:

You have my utmost sympathy for your loss. I heartily agree that insurance companies should pay for covered damages. I agree that the Federal government should help out. Like many other people here, I've already made multiple donations to help victims of Katrina. And, for what it's worth, I've rec'd many of your recent posts.

Having said that, I must protest this remark of yours:
Look, we already know you don't value a black life lost, or a black home lost, or a southern life lost, or a southern home lost, as much as a Yankee's life is valued.

That's total BS, and you should be ashamed for so casually tossing out accusations of racism.

Are there racists in America today? Sure, but they're a tiny minorty; they're not running any of the three branches of the Federal government. Racism is stupid from a business standpoint as well, because if I always hire the best workers, while my competitor limits himself to workers with a particular skin color, then he's put himself at a disadvantage. I don't know any businessman or woman who puts racism ahead of profits.

I'm not some kid -- I'm 40 years old. Sure, I know about segration -- MLK's marches, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, etc., but all that stuff is ancient history to me. Heck, I wasn't even born until December of 1964. The idea of treating people differently because of their skin color strikes me as so strange as to seem almost Martian! I think the overwhelming majority of Americans think the same way.

But I think you should keep the bigotry to a dull roar.
And the accusations of bigotry as well!

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655362 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 1:54 AM
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Are there racists in America today? Sure, but they're a tiny minorty;

I'm pretty sure a poll of black America would show overwhelming disagreement with that statement.


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Author: cabinsmama Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655370 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 7:02 AM
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I'm pretty sure a poll of black America would show overwhelming disagreement with that statement.

Agreed. Racism is alive and well. Spend some time in black communities or representing the interests of a black person...or in some all-white groups, behind closed doors, when a black person or group is in the news for something negative.

OTOH, there is also tolerance, respect, and cherishing of other races out there, too, and it seems to be increasing.

cm
optimist

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Author: impolite Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655376 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 7:35 AM
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Agreed. Racism is alive and well. Spend some time in black communities or representing the interests of a black person...or in some all-white groups, behind closed doors, when a black person or group is in the news for something negative.

Funny story: Me, another white person, a palestinian and an asian guy are all talking about DH and Iraq. The Asian guy starts a sentence wondering why Iraqis are blowing up their own people with: "I don't mean to sound racist...".

Good times.

impolite
likened it to the killings of the inner city

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655377 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 7:38 AM
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And some folks think everything is racism, and some folks are getting tired of it. What do you think of this article in my local paper?


http://www.pantagraph.com/stories/091305/new_20050913021.shtml

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Author: Sarcasman Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655378 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 7:51 AM
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A brawl outside a large party sent five people to the hospital with stab wounds Sunday morning and prompted a complaint Monday about police officers who responded with guns drawn.

No arrests had been made Monday following a fight that involved up to 40 people outside Let's Party Rental, 16 Currency Drive, said Dave White, spokesman for the Bloomington Police Department.

The police response to the fight has drawn criticism from organizers of the party, who say officers unnecessarily drew their weapons when dispersing the crowd of approximately 700 people who attended the event.

"They definitely could have handled it differently. If we weren't (black), they wouldn't have had all them guns out there," party organizer Jerome Wilson said. "They came in with their guns drawn and loaded. I thought we were in Iraq."



This is outrageous. I have to say, in the numerous knife fights I've been in involving dozens of my white friends, the police have always been able to break it up with just a flash of a badge and a caring smile.

It's good to be white in America.

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Author: JustWhoIAm Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655379 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 8:10 AM
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I'm sorry, but the safest bet in a knife fight is to have draw a loaded gun. I would expect the police to approach any fight that involves any type of weapons, beyond just body parts, with guns drawn.

Keith

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Author: chewiekiki Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655385 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 8:38 AM
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But wind-driven water is not necessarily wind-blown rain. And from the quoted paragraph, the only wind-driven water that is necessarily covered is wind-blown rain.

Yep, it was made excrutiatingly clear to me when I bought my insurance policy that wind-blown RAIN (falling from the sky) was covered, but rising water (for any reason) was not. That included storm surge.

Being on the 15th floor of a high rise, flood insurance isn't necessary because the building has it for the lower floors. But rain could definitely get in through my windows or if the roof a few floors up was severely compromised.

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Author: impolite Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655395 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 9:07 AM
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The police response to the fight has drawn criticism from organizers of the party, who say officers unnecessarily drew their weapons when dispersing the crowd of approximately 700 people who attended the event.

A knife is a deadly weapon. Officers matched that with one.

But hey, what's a few stabbed-to-death officers?

impolite

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655396 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 9:11 AM
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I'm pretty sure a poll of black America would show overwhelming disagreement with that statement.

No doubt, because so many black leaders have built their entire reputation on fighting racism. Where would Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton be without racism to blame for black problems? But I think there is a real disconnect between perception and reality.

By and large, the problems facing poor blacks are the same problems facing all poor people. But the black community is told over and over by many black leaders that the cause of their problems is racism.

When a white guy doesn't get into college, or doesn't get that job he applied for, he might blame bad luck, or a lack of good grades, or a lack of experience, or competition with more qualified individuals. He would never think to blame those ills on his skin color. Same with poverty -- I never heard of a white guy saying, "I'm only poor because I'm white."

In contrast, black leaders tell the black community that every ill is because of their skin color. I know that historically that was true. But today?

Forty years ago our nation passed the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights act. Forty years ago the institutions of racism began to fall. Forty years ago two-thirds of blacks lived below the poverty level. Today it's less than 25%. (Source: Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune, speaking on last night's O'Reilly Factor.)

I'm 40 years old, and everything I know about racism I learned from books, TV & movies. But I've never seen a segregated bus or lunch counter or drinking fountain. Even back in the early 1980s, when I was in high school, there wasn't a "black kids table" in the cafeteria -- I ate my lunch almost every day sitting next to my black friend Donald.

Nobody can get ahead in American politics today by espousing racist ideology. (Excepting folks like Jesse Jackson, of course.) Businesses actively recruit minorities, and very actively market to them. Given programs like affirmative action, and the policies of private businesses to hire minorities in the interest of diversity, I think a good argument can be made that poor blacks have an advantage over poor whites.

Lots of people grow up with serious disadvantages in life. But I'm not aware of anyone who ever overcame this disadvantages by means of blame.

This joke (about someone of my own ethnic persuasion) makes the point well:
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=23038954

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Author: DebInVenice Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655414 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:10 AM
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I've been staying out of this conversation because I don't have the answers than can make PekinRobin feel better or get the insurance companies to respond quicker.

I'm pretty sure a poll of black America would show overwhelming disagreement with that statement.

No doubt, because so many black leaders have built their entire reputation on fighting racism. Where would Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton be without racism to blame for black problems? But I think there is a real disconnect between perception and reality.

I really have to respond to stevenjklein by saying the disconnect between perception and reality is on your part.

I am black. I am in my upper 40's. I live in Los Angeles, CA one of the most racially diverse cities in the world. I was a military brat and have lived many places in this country and even overseas. I have not been subject to a lot of the racially based problems my parents or even my older siblings were subject to. The racism I've experienced has sometime been very subtle (maybe unrealized by the perpetrator) and sometimes very blatant. Examples:

- In the mid-80's while visiting my father in east Texas, a cousin and I decided to visit a local dance club. They were very obvious about keeping count of how many black people were in the club so that they didn't have "too many". We heard them updating their tally.

- Over the holidays in 1989/1990, I traveled to Europe alone. In EVERY country I was stopped at customs and inspected, even when I came back to the U.S. (I am one of the most goodie two shoe people you will every meet. Don't drink, son't smoke, don't use drugs or profanity and I fear the IRS).

- In the mid-90's return from a trip to Texas, I was waiting at LAX for the C shuttle to take me to my car. Out of nowhere, 2 airport police come up to and want to know where I am going, where I have been. They tell me that this is a "randon" check. I look around and notice that I am the only black person out of a group of 30 standing at this shuttle stop. I stood out by being black, so they chose me.

- I work in commercials. I was shooting a soft drink spot that took place in a gas station convenience store. The gist of the spot had to do with person after person coming into the store, going to the drink case and peering in to look for a specific brand of drink. The director told the "store manager" to occasionally walk over and look over the shoulder of random people to see what they were looking at. Every person the "store manager" chose to look over was black. When I pointed this out and they looked at the video playback, the "manager" was shocked and kept swearing to me that he was not prejudiced.

We all have our prejudices... even me. Some are better at rising above them that others and some don't care. Remember it was not too long ago a man was dragged to death in Jasper, Texas.

Racism still exists in America. Just because you don't see crosses burning on lawns on a daily basis doesn't mean it's not there.

As I said at the beginning, I don't have the answers for why it took so long to send help to NOLA. I don't know if it was because there was a large population of poor black people. I just know a lot of people were hurt and will need help for a long time. I made my donations and may do some work with Habitat for Humanity in the area if they are ready to build when I'm traveling through the area in November.


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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655420 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:36 AM
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Yeah, there's a disconnect alright.

If the worst incidents you can drag up are the fact that you were searched at customs and that someone ten years ago questioned you....

As far as the guys in Jasper, if I recall correctly they received the death penalty. As far as crosses burning, when was the last incident reported in America of a cross burning on someone's lawn? The most recent court case I could find was from eleven years ago. I think in many states crossburning is a crime. Flag burning isn't a crime, because free speech is protected. Can't quite get my head around the inconsistency there, but I'm still glad crossburning is illegal.



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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655422 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:42 AM
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And some folks think everything is racism, and some folks are getting tired of it.

And thats the chasm that has to be bridged. Both sides are right...and both sides are wrong.

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655424 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:47 AM
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No doubt, because so many black leaders have built their entire reputation on fighting racism.

Who?

They don't exist anymore...only in the minds of white america. No one speaks for all or even a majority of blacks in this country anymore.

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655425 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:48 AM
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I've invited you and others to explain to me what racism really is. What does it mean to you, Bullsfan? Really, I'd like to know. Another poster tells me racism is alive in America because she thinks police singled her out once ten years ago, and police in Europe singled her out sixteen years ago, and some convenience store manager pays more attention to black customers than white customers. Makes racism a pretty thin, watery, meaningless word if that's really all it means.

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655426 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:51 AM
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They don't exist anymore...only in the minds of white america. No one speaks for all or even a majority of blacks in this country anymore.


And I for one am thrilled to see men of the caliber of Barack Obama replace men of the caliber of Jesse Jackson. I'm pretty excited to have had the opportunity to vote for him. Was Illinois' last election the first time two black men have faced each other in a Senate Race?

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Author: DebInVenice Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655427 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:51 AM
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Yeah, there's a disconnect alright.

If the worst incidents you can drag up are the fact that you were searched at customs and that someone ten years ago questioned you....


I think you need to go back and re-read my post. I was giving some examples in my life and not necessarily the worst and definately not all. I freely admitted that my experinces have not been as bad as my parents or siblings.

The point was not that the "guys in Jasper" got the death penalty. The point was that this stuff STILL happens.

The point about cross burning was to point out that just because the racisim is not this extreme or "showy" doesn't mean it's not there.

What is YOUR point?

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Author: Diablo2Queen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655428 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 10:53 AM
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By and large, the problems facing poor blacks are the same problems facing all poor people. But the black community is told over and over by many black leaders that the cause of their problems is racism.

When a white guy doesn't get into college, or doesn't get that job he applied for, he might blame bad luck, or a lack of good grades, or a lack of experience, or competition with more qualified individuals. He would never think to blame those ills on his skin color. Same with poverty -- I never heard of a white guy saying, "I'm only poor because I'm white."


You're incorrectly assuming that all blacks are poor.

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655431 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:00 AM
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Yeah, there's a disconnect alright.

If the worst incidents you can drag up are the fact that...


And thats what drives black americans crazy. According to white america, theres a neatly logical reason for just about everything that happens...the perception that Black people have of whats happened/is happening is wrong, they are just playing the race card.

Man, thats offensive!. That saying we're blind and unintelligent and unreasoning and can't think for ourselves and that we're prone to prematurely jumping to conclusions. Dude-->We've got every bit of mental power, discernment and logic you have...plus a lifetime of living in the "other colored" skin.

No...it's not always racism. But you're wrong---there isn't a neat logical reason for everything that happens to black people in their lifetimes. Many times it is bias, and prejudice and even rascism. You get really good at picking these things out in this country.


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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655433 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:08 AM
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I've asked you to define racism several times. You've still not done it. Why not?

Do I think black americans are any of those things you said? No, I don't. But do I think that life is vastly better now than it was in 1964 when I was born in south Alabama? Probably. Do I think that some blacks are quick to play the race card? Yeah, I do. Why do I think that? Because of the story that made the front page of my local paper, among other things. Police with weapons drawn approach a crowd of 700 at 2 am after reports of knives drawn and shots fired and that's racism? Give me a break.

It is necessary to define the terms you are using before any kind of useful dialogue can take place. I'll issue another invitation to you, or anyone else who cares to-define racism for me. That way we can both agree what it is and can both know it when we see it with our equally discerning eyes.

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655435 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:10 AM
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I've asked you to define racism several times. You've still not done it. Why not?

dictionary.com

GB
(who doesn't want to spend his day arguing about this)

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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655436 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:13 AM
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"You know you've won an argument when the other guy reduces himself to a lengthy post dissecting nothing other than your spelling. "

Pointing out your inability to use words with greater than 3 syllables was just one line of my lengthy post.

You really know you've won when the other guy addresses one small line from a long post, and avoids addressing the main argument.

jb


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Author: Diablo2Queen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655437 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:13 AM
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It is necessary to define the terms you are using before any kind of useful dialogue can take place. I'll issue another invitation to you, or anyone else who cares to-define racism for me.

Sounds like you're trying to play the neo-con game of nitpicking definitions to death under the guise of "understanding" when you're really just looking for any excuse to avoid admitting there's a problem.

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Author: SRenaeP Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655438 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:14 AM
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Yeah, there's a disconnect alright.

If the worst incidents you can drag up are the fact that you were searched at customs and that someone ten years ago questioned you....

As far as the guys in Jasper, if I recall correctly they received the death penalty. As far as crosses burning, when was the last incident reported in America of a cross burning on someone's lawn? The most recent court case I could find was from eleven years ago. I think in many states crossburning is a crime. Flag burning isn't a crime, because free speech is protected. Can't quite get my head around the inconsistency there, but I'm still glad crossburning is illegal.


eudaimon6,

I have a hard time believing you are truly that naive or unaware. There are multiple instances of crossburning in the US EVERY YEAR. I specifically recall one such case here in GA last year. And let's not forget the numerous church burnings that have happened in recent years. Then there's the black family who had racial epithets spraypainted on their newly constructed home before they even got a chance to finish moving in. Once again, that was here in GA last year.

Go ask the next ten black people you see, how many times they've experienced or witnessed blatant racism just this year alone and you'll find out that the only disconnect is between your perception and reality.

-Steph

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655439 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:16 AM
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What is YOUR point?

That I'd like someone to define racism for me. That the examples you chose were weak. If you have better ones, I'm eager to hear them.

I don't doubt that there are evil, mean, vicious, cruel individuals in the world. I don't doubt that evil, mean, vicious, cruel deeds are done. But when someone like Pekinrobin asserts that the general US response to a disaster like Katrina is largely colored by a general disregard for black life that white americans share, which is where this thread began, you need to do better than refer to something that happened to you ten years ago that may or may not have been racially motivated.

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Author: precious1965 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655444 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:22 AM
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I recall a cross burning in the past year, but cannot find a reference to it at this time. I did find these other two. But racism is not just about cross burning. Racism is also subtle and pervasive, lingering. DebinVenice posts to that side of racism that many may not see if not experienced directly.

August 22, 1998
Virginia v. Black
http://www.broadbandc-span.org/downloads/VABlack.pdf

Commentary on same
“Though the court did not entirely validate Virginia's 50-year-old law on cross burning, it voted 6-3 to overturn a Virginia Supreme Court ruling in 2001 that the law was an unconstitutional infringement of free speech.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52312-2003Apr7&notFound=true

January 2004 (incident from 1999 in N. Carolina)
"Robert Nelson May was sentenced to probation and five months' house arrest for burning a cross near the home of an interracial couple -- far less than the sentencing guidelines, which recommend at least one year in prison."

Reply Brief of Appellant
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/briefs/mayreply.pdf



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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655445 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:25 AM
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I did a google search for cross burnings before I posted. The only one I found was from 1994, and it involved a juvenile, a mentally retarded man, and an "instigator" who went to prison. If you know of others, please share a link.

I don't doubt that churches have caught on fire. Has anyone proven that they are racially motivated burnings? I've read some stories that suggest it, but none that proved it. Help me out, please.

Finally, I haven't ever denied that racism exists, or that genuine incidents don't occur. I just think that this discussion can take place in a more useful, intelligent manner if we can agree on what racism means. Maybe some folks think I'm some kind of troll, or neo-con or something. Sorry if I've created that impression.

Y'all have a nice day.

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Author: precious1965 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655447 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:26 AM
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I forgot about this incident in Maryland from last year ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090202401.html

$10 million in damage.

"In part because the suspects are white and most of the homeowners at Hunters Brooke are black, the fires fueled a perception that racism persists in Charles County. Although he denied in his testimony that he is racist, Parady admitted when he pleaded guilty in April that he targeted the development because a large number of black people were buying homes there."

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Author: cabinsmama Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655448 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:28 AM
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When you hear officers of the court and people who are supposed to be representing the interests of children of all races using the n-word re: NO,

When a black co-worker calls an apartment listing and is told it's already been rented, and you (white "you") call the same day and they offer to show it to you,

when a white social worker or foster parent is in the doctor's waiting room with a black child and people give disapproving looks,

when two workers go to a white business and the owner keeps directly talking to the white worker, even though the black worker has m ore information to provide,

when medical providers see a white child, black foster parent, and white social worker, and even though the foster parent is being more "parent-y", they assume the white person is the foster parent and the black person is the social worker,

when a black woman, considering marrying a white man, starts identifying where it will or won't be safe for them to live,

racism might still be an issue.

FWIW, I think institutions have done a pretty good job of reducing racism or making it actionable. And I'd want to know a lot of specifics before forming an opinion on whether race was a factor in someone not being successful, because it does get used as an excuse (I knew a family who explained their screaming, high volume, multi-generational fights that included death threats as "a black thing. You just don't understand". Um...yeah, I understand just fine, and that's not a black thing; that's disfunction).

Of course, I recognize that this can be very different in different parts of the country. And that racism can cut both ways, with every group making faulty assumptions.

cm


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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655449 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:32 AM
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That seems pretty clear. Racist idiots burn homes because black people are moving in. I imagine they'll do some serious jail time, especially the one who was uncooperative and convicted on 36 counts. I recall reading about that one-jail is a good place for the lot of them.

So how is that clear, unambiguous crime, for which, I am thankful, convictions were secured, evidence that white america's response to Katrina is driven by racism?


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Author: DebInVenice Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655451 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:36 AM
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That I'd like someone to define racism for me. That the examples you chose were weak. If you have better ones, I'm eager to hear them.

Your request is not genuine and I will not get into an argument with you. If it was genuine you have approached the question differently, without animosity and a more open mind. You have already have your own definition and nothing I write will change your mind.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655452 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:36 AM
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"No...it's not always racism. But you're wrong---there isn't a neat logical reason for everything that happens to black people in their lifetimes. Many times it is bias, and prejudice and even rascism."

I can only speak for my Federal agency, but even the slightest hint of racism here on the job is dealt with swiftly and quickly. I was involved in a situation where an employee made a not-so-funny joke about asian americans directed toward one of my employees that could easily have been considered racist. He came very close to being fired over it, and it was only his apology, and the acceptance of that apology by the offended asian person, that saved his stupid arse. I know that doesn't happen everywhere, but we do a very good job of making sure that kind of stuff is neither condoned nor accepted.

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Author: precious1965 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655453 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:37 AM
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So how is that clear, unambiguous crime, for which, I am thankful, convictions were secured, evidence that white america's response to Katrina is driven by racism?

This tangent brought to you by ...

The letter K

Your friendly neighborhood gas station

And post #655362
"Are there racists in America today? Sure, but they're a tiny minorty;"
I'm pretty sure a poll of black America would show overwhelming disagreement with that statement.


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Author: SRenaeP Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655454 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:38 AM
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I did a google search for cross burnings before I posted. The only one I found was from 1994, and it involved a juvenile, a mentally retarded man, and an "instigator" who went to prison. If you know of others, please share a link.

I guess you didn't look very hard but I'm not surprised.

Here's the case I was talking about - http://www.kpvi.com/index.cfm?page=nbcheadlines.cfm&ID=16981 - it actually occurred in Nov. 2003.

Here's one in 2004 in Washington State - http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=44882

2004, Long Island - http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/255227p-218561c.html

LAST MONTH in Michigan - http://www.detnews.com/2005/wayne/0508/13/B02-273814.htm

How many more examples do you need?

I don't doubt that churches have caught on fire. Has anyone proven that they are racially motivated burnings? I've read some stories that suggest it, but none that proved it. Help me out, please.

Uh huh. Just like there was no "proof" that lynchings were racially motivated.

Finally, I haven't ever denied that racism exists, or that genuine incidents don't occur. I just think that this discussion can take place in a more useful, intelligent manner if we can agree on what racism means. Maybe some folks think I'm some kind of troll, or neo-con or something. Sorry if I've created that impression.

Though some prefer dictionary.com, I like Merriam-Webster.

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Y'all have a nice day.

I'm trying to but your inane comments combined with the fact that I pulled into work this morning and saw a confederate flag tag on the truck parked in front of me is putting a bit of a damper on it.

-Steph

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655456 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:40 AM
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when a white social worker or foster parent is in the doctor's waiting room with a black child and people give disapproving looks,

It burns me that people of either race do that.

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Author: cabinsmama Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655459 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 11:50 AM
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As far as the racism/Katrina thing...FWIW, I think it was more complicated than race by far (first on all, I don't think the gumment could pull off a racially-motivated slow response if their lives depended on it--they're not that organized.

I think that it's a tricky call to make, given that we don't know for sure that a natural disaster of this magnitude and characteristics in an upper class and/or white area would have been handled any better by our government system--we try to compare, but there really isn't anything to compare it to.

The tsunami relief didn't have the policy hurdles re: who can request what assistance, and it didn't have the on-going disruption that kept things destablized for days.

I do think there's a direct link between poverty and people not evacuating in time.

Slow because of race---if that were true, I would expect to see less assistance in the forms of money, time, and labor from white people. And that hasn't been the case, as far as I can tell.

cm



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Author: nerokitty Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655470 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:02 PM
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We all have our prejudices... even me.

Yep, racism isn't color blind. I can give examples of racism as a white woman....

1984 in downtown Long Beach, California. I grew up very color blind and didn't think anything about walking into a fast food joint for lunch when I was the only white person there. I encountered two male men coming up behind me and rubbing themselves on me all the while calling me horrible racist names. I remember looking around and seeing other people snickering. Obviously, I left quickly.

Same year trying to find a job. I applied and went for an interview. During the interview I was told that this was a "black" business and they didn't hire no white women.

1986 - Dated a man of color. A black woman spat on me and told me that there weren't enough black men to go around and I should find one of my own.

At Purdue, I had a black roommate and I was surprised to hear her talk about how she wouldn't date certain men because they were "too black."

2004, At work, my boss telling me how I didn't look like a Jew and other jaw dropping things. She was white.

So racism is alive and well and it ISN'T contained to just white folks.

The whole point is that we can all find examples of racism in our lives. We know how wrong it feels and we can feel empathy for others and not perpetrate that behavior. Racism is the flavor of IGNORANT people.


Nerokitty

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655472 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:03 PM
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I don't doubt that churches have caught on fire. Has anyone proven that they are racially motivated burnings? I've read some stories that suggest it, but none that proved it. Help me out, please.

Uh huh. Just like there was no "proof" that lynchings were racially motivated.


When did anyone, aside from maybe a Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan, suggest that lynchings were motivated by anything other than race?

Thanks for the links on cross burnings. I guess I had hoped we were beyond that. Apparently not.

Anyway, accepting your definition of racism, which seems an agreeable one to me, how is the US response to Katrina evidence of white racism?


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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655479 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:18 PM
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Anyway, accepting your definition of racism, which seems an agreeable one to me, how is the US response to Katrina evidence of white racism?


Define "US response".

I'm only half-kidding. The stone cold truth is you had three or more layers of government (local, state, federal) who normally would struggle mightily to defend their turfs, but in the no win scenario that Katrina presented no one "in charge" wanted to step up and say "the buck stops here and if people die unnecessarily it's my fault". Racism had nothing to do with it. The response to Katrina was "driven" by the fact that no one who depends on votes for a living wanted to seen with their hands firmly on the steering wheel. After all, that would disqualify them from playing the blame game.

BK

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Author: BullsfanGB Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655483 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:28 PM
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...we can all find examples of racism in our lives.

There they go again...



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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655484 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:29 PM
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The racism I've experienced has sometime been very subtle (maybe unrealized by the perpetrator)
I agree that this is still a problem, mostly because folks of our generation (I'm 40) -- even though we were successfully taught to racism repugnant -- were raised by folks whose feelings on the subject were at best, indifferent.

People of my mother's generation -- even if they don't think of themselves as racists -- grew up in a culture where they never had black teachers or college professors, never had black doctors, and never had black bosses at work. This surely skewed their thinking, and since they raised us, it certainly influenced our thinking.

But I think it gets better with every passing year, as the old racists die off, and (eventually) as their children die off.

They were very obvious about keeping count of how many black people were in the club...
If that happened in my community, I'd be picketing the club. I don't know how typical that is -- perhaps because I've never gone into a club that had any entry criteria beyond having a pulse.

I traveled to Europe alone. In EVERY country I was stopped at customs...
Yeah, well, I never said that Europe wasn't full of racists -- they are the folks who gave use the Inquisition, the crusades, the holocaust, etc. etc. FWIW, I've been stopped by both Canadian and US customs, and my brother once got stopped on his way into Canada and had them search and remove every item from his car, which -- since he was moving -- including pretty much all of his worldly posessions. Then they brought him inside and strip-searched him. This was about 25 years ago, long before terrorism concerns.

2 airport police come up to and want to know where I am going, where I have been. They tell me that this is a "randon" check. I look around and notice that I am the only black person out of a group of 30 standing at this shuttle stop. I stood out by being black, so they chose me.
Ah, but if it was truly random, wouldn't you have just as much a chance of being stopped as anyone else? There may have been something in their manner that cued you in to an unspoken racist motive on their part, but the mere fact that you were picked isn't evidence of anything.

I recently had to travel by plane. I was pulled aside, made to take off my shoes, get patted down, etc. etc. I was the only one of at least a hundred folks I saw go by while this search took place. Do I think it wsa because I was wearing a yarmulke? No.

(And if I may introduce a little humor: My cousin's daughter told me about an incident in her Jewish parochial school. One kid (who hadn't done his homework) kept getting called on by the teacher. Finally he responded by saying, "You're just picking on me 'cause I'm Jewish.)

By the way, you're perfectly within your rights to refuse to tell them anything. In most (all?) states it's a crime to lie to the police, and many jurisdictions require you to show identification when asked, but in no place can a pedestrian be compelled to say anything to a police officer. (If you're driving, the rules are different.)

On three occasions I have been stopped by cops who wanted to ask me where I was going, where I was coming from, etc. Once, when I was in a hurry, I cooperated, because it was expedient. The other two times I answered every question with, "I respectfully decline to answer your question." One of those two times was at night, where I was alone in an area where no one could see me. In both cases they eventually got tired of hearing me give the same response over and over, and let me go.

As MLK once said, "A man can't ride your back unless it's bent."

Remember it was not too long ago a man was dragged to death in Jasper, Texas.
And how did America react? Did anyone speak in their defense? Did anyone say, "He was askin' fer it!"? Or was it universally condemned?

In January of 1987 I went to Atlanta to participate in a civil rights march in Forsythe County, where not a single black person lived. Not only were there tens of thousands of Americans of all colors, but even some of the locals participated, ashamed at the reputation of their county as racist.

The day has long since past when white America tacitly endorsed racist policies through its silence. Here's a link to a story about a more typical response to racism in America today:
http://www.pbs.org/niot/about/niot1.html

I don't know if it was because there was a large population of poor black people.
I wouldn't argue in the least with someone who said it was because they were poor, but given that poor whites in surrounding counties got the same lousy response, I remain unconvinced that skin color was an issue.

There may be politicians who focus on poor folks who don't contribute to political campaigns (and don't always turn out for elections), but those politicians probably don't have much success getting elected.

I want to add one disclaimer to this message: I've never lived in the South, nor spent much time there. I was born in LA, and lived there for my first 20 years. I've also lived in Santa Cruz, Fairfax, VA, Washington, DC, Takoma Park, MD, and (now) the suburbs of Detroit. I have had black teachers, professors, bosses & doctors, and I've never witnessed any overt racism, and have heard very few (three, to be exact) overt anti-Jewish remarks -- once by someone who didn't realize I was Jewish.

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655488 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:34 PM
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No doubt, because so many black leaders...

They don't exist anymore...only in the minds of white america. No one speaks for all or even a majority of blacks in this country anymore.

You're right. I should have written "presumptive black leaders."

Certainly folks like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Kwazi Mfume consider themselves to be black leaders.

Ironically, the most conspicuous black (presumtive) leader who unfailingly preaches self-reliance is also one of the most racists -- Louis Farrakhan. If it weren't for the fact that he hates me because of my religion, and hates other folks because of their skin color, and is widely believed to have conspired in the murder of Malcolm X, I might actually like him.

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655489 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:34 PM
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{{Sounds like you're trying to play the neo-con game of nitpicking definitions to death under the guise of "understanding" when you're really just looking for any excuse to avoid admitting there's a problem.}}


I did not get that at all from the post you are replying to.

It looks to me like you are pretty quick to throw our labels. But I guess that when your argument is as poor as yours is, all you can do is hurl insults.


c

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655491 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:36 PM
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Makes racism a pretty thin, watery, meaningless word if that's really all it means.

But you don't have to build extra time into your day for it, eudaimon6. Or wonder if this is the traffic stop where you just get a warning or the one where the guy wants to go through the trunk, bring the dogs, etc.

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655492 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:36 PM
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You're incorrectly assuming that all blacks are poor.
Huh? Where did you find that in my message?

I grew up in Bevelry Hills California, and I promise you all the blacks I knew were far from poor. At least one of my black schoolmates -- Leonard Kravitz -- seems to have done pretty well for himself. But maybe people cut him a break because they think he's Jewish? (He's not, though his ex-wife (Lisa Bonet) is Jewish.)

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655494 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:38 PM
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{{Finally, I haven't ever denied that racism exists, or that genuine incidents don't occur. I just think that this discussion can take place in a more useful, intelligent manner if we can agree on what racism means}}


I will give you my definition of racism. To me, racism is the use of skin color in part or in whole to determine a person's worth or qualifications.



c

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Author: impolite Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655499 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:48 PM
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People of my mother's generation -- even if they don't think of themselves as racists -- grew up in a culture where they never had black teachers or college professors, never had black doctors, and never had black bosses at work. This surely skewed their thinking, and since they raised us, it certainly influenced our thinking.

Good point. I was born and raised in the South to a family that is Southern. My Grandmother, up until the day she died, called black people "negros" because that's just what they were called. She didn't mean anything by it - some of her friends were black - but she just couldn't grasp that it was an offensive term.

Her and my grandfather traveled up here to buy china as a wedding present for me...and as we passed two lighter-skinned black folks, she declared loud enough for all of us to hear: "Those sure are light skinned negros."

I will never forget the gracious smile they gave us; they must have realized that a woman that old was simply unchangeable, seen on my face that I was horrified she was speaking that way, or just decided we were crazy white folks and took a pass on worrying about it.

My parents remember black kids being bussed to their schools...schools that held poor white kids. In one incident, a protest by the black kids at the high school, racists were kept out by a human chain...except for a few white kids that were friends of the protesters. Both my parents were let through the line.

I think it takes many generations for these things to right themselves, not because it SHOULDN'T go faster, but because it takes that long for racism to dilute. My parents aren't racist, and weren't raised to be, but WERE raised in a time and place it was accepted to be. I was raised where it WASN'T acceptable, and some stuff still gave them pause. I remember the very first boyfriend I had, in kindergarten, was an adorable little black boy. My gawd, he was a cherub. At any rate, I recall my parents thinking aloud in awe with the boy's mother that two children of different races, in a Southern Baptist private school, had essentially not noticed each other's color. Such an event would have been monumental in their childhoods, and for us, it was a non-event. Both sides were awe-struck.

My children are being raised in an even more accepting environment - my MIL is a lesbian, and BIL is gay; we live in a normal, suburban neighborhood with many black neighbors, and socialize with Mexicans, Asians, etc. We live in an environment that is much more color- and oreintation-blind than the one *I* was raised in. Truly amazing.

impolite

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 655502 of 884837
Subject: Re: bill mann can bite me Date: 9/16/2005 12:52 PM
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Recommendations: 3
Can't quite get my head around the inconsistency there, but I'm still glad crossburning is illegal.


I don't think crossburning, as such, should be illegal.

If you are peacefully burning your own cross on your own property with due respect to the security of other property (your neighbors' property, AND your property that you have fire insurance on) and in accordance with local fire codes, I don't see a problem.

However, light examination of reported cross-burning incidents reveals that such a pattern is unusual. More often the cross-burners are operating on SOMEONE ELSE'S property, without their permission, almost invariably do at least some damage to the lawn, and are often sloppy about the security of other property as well as local fire codes. So we can nail them for trespassing, fire code violations, vandalism, and perhaps arson. Plus it's clearly done for the purpose of intimidation and harrassment, which should bring in some additional charges.

(But they usually do burn their own crosses.)

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