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Author: DeadheadFool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1656  
Subject: Re: More on feeding 3rd world countries Date: 9/14/1999 1:41 PM
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Birth control and abortion are two different things, first of all. Birth control prevents pregnancy, abortion kills a life. These religious groups have a major problem with abortion.

OK, when did anyone mention abortion? I did not.

Most people also have a major problem with outsiders telling them to limit and/or abort their offspring. As we see in China today, forcing a "one child" policy on a country can lead to the killing or abandoning of the less prefered offspring (usually girls).

"Telling" and "forcing" are also not my words. I suggest teaching and helping.

Our humanitarianism should not come at the cost of lives or at the cost of a peoples' self determination.


What if peoples' self determination is death? i.e. Having more babies when there's not enough access to food.

And, just because a culture does not embrace any of the major religions does not mean it would embrace the limitation of or killing of their children. I believe the American Indians, while valuing other lifeforms besides humans, would object to our telling them how many children to have or our "teaching them birth control".

Great example! Native Americans do not need to be taught birth control. For tens of thousands of years before the white Christians (not being sarcastic here, being factual) came and started converting everyone in North America, there was no population problem with Native Americans because they lived in concert with the other animals and life forms in their worlds. They only planted what they needed to live, they only killed what they needed to live. There was no concept of expanding geographically to support larger populations. They lived in the same geographical area for generations maintaining a constant population size. Call it birth control, call it limiting their offspring, whatever you want to call it, it worked. And in many cultures - there are approximately 10,000 indigenous cultures that date before the agricultural revolution still on the planet today - it still works today.

What I can testify to is that according to Scripture, it is the Judeo-Christian belief that all life is created by God. Man was assigned to be the STEWARD of nature--that is the true meaning of dominion--the caretaker. Man being what he is, a fallen creature, he does not always get it right. Sad but true.

Yes, that's what I said earlier, according to these major religions, the world was created for man and man was meant to rule the world. You've toned that down to say "steward" and "caretaker", but I say it's the same thing. If you have a pet, and you are it's steward and caretaker, aren't you also it's ruler? Maybe "man" is not "fallen" and does not need to be saved because we really ARE NOT the rulers of the world. Once we all get that, we'll really start to see some change happening. That Judeo-Christian guilt will fade and we can correct the environmental situation we've created.

Christ was the first to teach equality between races and gender. He liked to "hang out" with all types of people of all different cultures.

Yup, he was the ultimate hippie from all I've read about him!

Paul taught that there is no Jew or Greek, Male or Female, etc. but that we are all one.

One species meant to rule the world. Why didn't he include whales, trees, snakes, birds, grasses, flowers, and bugs?

Stating that because the followers of the major religions dominate the world so the religions are thus guilty of not referencing all life is a fallacy. It is not the religious beliefs that are guilty...it is the people who claim to be followers of same. Many, and I would argue, most of the people that adhere to the major religions have a great reference (but do not worship) other life. We care about what is happening and do not think that "raping" nature is to our benefit or the benefit of future generations.

OK, so what are these religions doing to show they care? Maybe they are beginning to realize what's been done in the past with an increased awareness, but taking a benign position, and paying lip service is just as bad in my opinion. I think that in addition to business having an environmental responsibility, that the religious groups do too, indivually and collectively.

Emm, I would like you to give me one example of animals that intentionally abort their offspring. Just one. Or, one group telling another that they need to chill on the offspring because of food distribution problems.

The Native American example I mention above is one, and is only a sample of the 10,000 other cultures that have existed longer than our "taker" culture has. Again, I never said "intentionally abort" as the means. I think you're stuck on that Frecs. That's not the debate here. And again, it's not a matter of one group telling another. Humans are the only species that can DECIDE to use birth control. With other animals, it's a simple matter of food supply. If there's not enough food, then the babies die - naturally! If there is enough food, babies live and reproduce until once again there is not enough food. My spirituality says that God decides which species should live and die and when. Humans (the taker culture), and this is biblical, decided to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then decided that God put them here on this planet to populate it and rule it. The leaver cultures did not go along with this thinking and to this day still do not.

The bigotry will not end as long as we have the Haves telling the havenots, or the Ins telling the Outs what they can or can not do.

Here, we agree completely!

Yes, your perspective sickens and saddens me,

Yours would sicken and sadden me too, but it's what I grew up with, and what surrounds us all everyday. I'm used to it. My perspective (and I've learned this from Daniel Quinn and others) is new, and radical, and realistic, and yeah, that's scary!

I'm learning that there's more to it then what we've been taught. I like what I'm learning!

Chris
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