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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 10537  
Subject: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 12:38 PM
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Well. This isn't a call for help so much as a bitch session.

A few days before I got the new center a couple times when we turned on the system to watch TV we noticed no sound was coming out of the old Altec Lansing. We'd power off the old Sony AVR a time or two and voila, all speakers back.

Then I got my new Atlantic tech center and oh the joy!

Two days ago I turned it all on and no sound from the center other than a quiet buzzing sound that I couldn't hear without sticking my ear right up to the grill. It took no less than 5 cycles of on/off to get the center sound back.

Last night turned it on and everything sounded great right off the bat.

But today there is no joy in the swamp.

Cycled the AVR on/off numerous times. Waited till it was warmed up and did it again. Only got the buzz, sometimes not even the buzz. Changed the speaker wire, no change. Switched the center to the right front speaker to be sure the center still works. It does.

One time, only one time we got the center to come back on. But it sounded horrible, very muddy and no flipping of the speaker switches on its back helped at all.

So now we're listening on the phantom setting and it sounds muddy or muffled, can't decide, either way it's annoying. I can't imagine waiting till Black Friday hoping it will drop in price then. But though I am pretty darn sure DH now agrees that "yup, this thing is nearly toast". Until it actually turns up its toes I think I still have to wait 7 more weeks.

*groan*

RM
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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9654 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 1:12 PM
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IMO, not worth waiting. Sales on Black Friday, as well as after Xmas, have not been very good the past several years. The discounts often aren't very deep, and the range of items offered often is lacking.

Just get it now. You'll be happier.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=shop+rx-v473&hl...

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Author: MichaelRead Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9655 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 3:13 PM
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So now we're listening on the phantom setting and it sounds muddy or muffled, can't decide, either way it's annoying. I can't imagine waiting till Black Friday hoping it will drop in price then. But though I am pretty darn sure DH now agrees that "yup, this thing is nearly toast". Until it actually turns up its toes I think I still have to wait 7 more weeks.

*groan*

RM


RM: the Sony is toast. I’m more concerned that as it deteriorates further it may blow out your speakers – if there’s a rattle/buzz/hum in any speaker turn the amp off quickly. Right now I’m not that sure the amp isn’t stable and that’s a death knell for any amp. Well, you’ve had 20 good years from it and it has paid its way. Time to replace.

I agree with 1poorguy about replacing the amp now with the Yamaha RX V473: capability and price mesh. And 1poorguy is right: not all sales are always that good on Black Friday or in the New Year. Some are but most not.

However, you could talk to the manager of a store selling the amp and say if he can match what the sale price would be on Black Friday you’ll buy it right now at that price. If he demurs, smile and exit and try elsewhere where they want a guaranteed sale. It’s worth trying.

Or use the link 1poorguy gave and have it in less than a week. Personally that’s what I would choose. That link has a price difficult for some stores to match. Yamaha’s MSRP (http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amp... ) is $499.95 and 1pg’s link has it at $330 so I’d grab that lower price PDQ.

MichaelR

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9656 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 3:25 PM
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Doh! Michael is right...the buzz/hum means that your unit is toast (which I think you already knew), but there is the possibility it could damage your speakers. I should have thought of that. Once the amp is unstable who knows what transients or spikes it could pulse at your speakers, and you could end up watching your tweeter fly out the window.

I wouldn't even turn that thing on again. Get a new unit, and give the old one to an electronics recycler.

1poorguy (does not like the smell of burned-out speakers in the morning...)

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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9657 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 7:37 PM
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Okay guys. We are safe now. DH is not happy. I would probably be very happy with the v473 but last I remember we were talking the v373 which is $249 at Amazon. Except for that one site on 1poorguy's link I know nothing about in terms of trustworthiness the v473 is selling for $399.

That's a $150 difference. In comparing specs I see that it does have better speaker connections. It has a "discrete amp". I do not know what that is and googling isn't getting me anywhere.

It's got a ton of wifi type features I will not use or need. I'd hate to be paying just to have that. I have Hughesnet for satellite internet so its too slow to make any of that stuff useful to me.

But what do you think of last year's version the v471 that still seems to be available? it's selling for $254. Seems to lack all that networking nonsense I can't use (oh darn) I can't figure out about the discrete amp.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004QR56R0/ref=olp_product_...

Now heading to yamaha's website to see what I can learn.

RM

PS - my local appliance store is having a private sale on Thursday. I have no idea what kind of AVRs they sell as I've only ever bought appliances there. But I'll go and check. Otherwise any stores like Best Buy are a 2 hour drive. Not happening in my old beater truck.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9658 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 8:08 PM
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Scroll down...iBuysOnline has it for $344 including shipping, and they get 4.5 stars from customers.

There're also some ebay listings if you're comfortable with that.

B&H is $400, but extremely reputable.

Here's the comparison you mentioned:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amp...

The 471 you mentioned looks quite respectable. Here's the important bit: http://data.yamaha.jp/sdb/local/products/images/21795/12075/...

Personally, I don't like the clamps for the surround speakers on the 373: http://data.yamaha.jp/sdb/product/image/others/raw/r/rx-v373...

I prefer posts. So I wouldn't get that one. (Yeah, I'm spoiled...now that I have posts I won't go back.)

Wish I could help with "discrete amp configuration", but I don't recall hearing that term before. Perhaps I know it by some other term, but Yamaha doesn't seem to want to tell us what it really is. Maybe Michael knows.

1poorguy

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Author: MichaelRead Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9659 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 8:48 PM
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Okay guys. We are safe now. DH is not happy. I would probably be very happy with the v473 but last I remember we were talking the v373 which is $249 at Amazon. Except for that one site on 1poorguy's link I know nothing about in terms of trustworthiness the v473 is selling for $399.

That's a $150 difference. In comparing specs I see that it does have better speaker connections. It has a "discrete amp". I do not know what that is and googling isn't getting me anywhere.

RM


Let’s begin with ‘discrete’. What that means is each channel has its own amplifier chip rather than have one single chip handle them all. Why this is better (though a tad more expensive) is because, in the long run these chips are less subject to heating: a single chip handling all channels can get Real Hot. The single chip is cheaper to produce and the circuit board also and that’s why they’re still offered. Discrete amplification also means there’s less possibility of cross talk between channels at any volume setting (not a huge point yet discrete does give a clearer signal)..

Speaker connectors come in two styles: bad and acceptable. The spring-loaded clip types are the terrible – five-way binding posts far, far better. Why? Tighter connections with less wire oxidation and, if you’ve a mind to, can use banana plugs (less fiddly than screwing down on the speaker wire in cramped quarters).
The major difference between the RX V373 and the RX V473 is the former doesn’t have component jacks. If you have other electronics that have a HDMI out then that’s okay but if only composite then you’re not getting the better signal. If what you plan to do is upgrade, say the DVD to Blu-ray most of them – if not all – have an HDMI out so it won’t be a problem. But with legacy stuff it is.

It's got a ton of wifi type features I will not use or need. I'd hate to be paying just to have that. I have Hughesnet for satellite internet so it’s too slow to make any of that stuff useful to me.

What if Hughesnet does upgrades (they will) and you want what they then offer? What if you change your satellite provider that has a better (read faster) connection? Up to you yet I’d rather have it than not because of these future possible changes.

But what do you think of last year's version the v471 that still seems to be available? It’s selling for $254. Seems to lack all that networking nonsense I can't use (oh darn) I can't figure out about the discrete amp.

Still a good amp and it is discrete amped (Burr-Brown 192 kHz/24-bit DACs for all channels). I’d chose it if you can get a good price but would prefer the RX V473 because of the feature set.

PS - my local appliance store is having a private sale on Thursday. I have no idea what kind of AVRs they sell as I've only ever bought appliances there. But I'll go and check. Otherwise any stores like Best Buy are a 2 hour drive. Not happening in my old beater truck.

RM, even in this discussion on Motley you probably know more than they do about amps. Just don’t buy an off-brand just because of price. Chances are it will run hot enough to fry eggs on. Most major amp makers switched to Class D amps because they run cooler; some of the cheaper amps are still Class A-B (cheaper to make) but you really don’t want one like that.

Question: if you buy through Amazon do you have to pay state tax on the sale? If not then compare that and local prices that have additional sales taxes.

As for making the hubster happy tell him he chose well with the Sony (it lasted) and the amp you’re going to get will last that long – so it (as was the Sony) will be a good investment. Plus, you’re going to have gorgeous sound.

One last: the standard DVD discs for Lord of the Rings have the advanced (Dolby EX) codec. The new amp will process that and together with a nice, cold, beer life don’t get that much better.

MichaelR

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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9660 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/8/2012 10:05 PM
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Thanks for the explanation on discrete. I was reading some Sony threads on avsforum and a lot of people had the same problem I had and they all contributed it to heat and dry solder connections. In fact many of them tried re-soldering and fixed their machines, at least for a while.

I checked the website of the other local appliance store, 35 miles away and it only sells Sony. I suspect the one 8 miles away will be similar. I have NO intention of getting another Sony (I've had other badly performing Sony products) or an off-brand, don't worry. Right now it's just a battle of wills between me and DH. I think I'll be able to get him to understand the discrete amp just fine (he is an EE after all). It's all the other stuff and "why isn't the 373 just good enough, don't let those guys on the Fool sway you", I probably shouldn't mention to him the older version, the v371 which just dropped to $189 on Amazon.

I also agree with you on the binding posts vs the clips.

The major difference between the RX V373 and the RX V473 is the former doesn’t have component jacks.

I'm looking at both the Yamaha site and the photo on Amazon and both show the V373 having 2 component in (AV1 and AV2) and one component out.

I’d chose it if you can get a good price but would prefer the RX V473 because of the feature set.

What do you mean by feature set?

What if Hughesnet does upgrades (they will) and you want what they then offer?

We could get faster Hughesnet if we wanted to add $20-30/month to our bill. Sure it's possible they might get more "stuff" but I've more hope that Frontier will finally get its act together and bring the fiber optic line for a cable modem to town. Maybe in 10-15 years if we're lucky. They've told us there isn't enough interest! (we are in the boonies after all and it's the poorest county in the state.)

As it is we don't have smart phones, don't want to pay the money. We have a Net10 and Tracfone. There is no 3G up here. There are 2 or 3 of wi-fi hotspots. As I mentioned we can't get streaming video or internet radio, connections are too slow. Apple AirPlay? I assume that requires an iPod? Not gonna happen. We try to live very frugally here. But I am trying to get DH to realize the home theater IS our main entertainment.

No sales tax through Amazon so yeah it's a consideration as MI's tax is 6%.

I checked, you're right my copies of the LotR do say Dolby EX. But I just read this on the dolby.com site:

"Feature films originally released in Dolby Digital Surround EX™ (the cinema version) carry the encoded extra surround channel in their subsequent DVD releases, as well as onto 5.1-channel digital satellite and TV broadcasts. If your home theater system has a receiver or preamp/processor with Dolby Digital EX decoding and speakers to support 6.1 or 7.1 playback, you can hear Surround EX soundtracks as they were meant to be heard, with the increased realism created by the extra surround channel.

As in the cinema, with regular 5.1-channel Dolby Digital playback no sonic information is lost (although you'll miss out on the heightened realism)."


That seems to me to imply that I would need a 6.1 or 7.1 system to have it work. So it would be moot. Or am I missing something?

As for making the hubster happy tell him he chose well with the Sony (it lasted) and the amp you’re going to get will last that long – so it (as was the Sony) will be a good investment. Plus, you’re going to have gorgeous sound.

LOL, I have to tell you, my dad gave me the Sony. He was notorious for upgrading his stuff often. It's from him I got my love of music and electronic stuff. I'm looking at all the equipment in this room, the Onkyo stereo music system and the Sony HT system and DH did not have a hand in acquiring a single item except in that he helped pay for it and had to listen to me (sometimes, usually he tries to tune me out, says I get a little too obsessive about it).

Here is a comparison chart from the Yamaha. (threw in the v571) I noted the V -x71 versions don't have that 4k pass through.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amp...

Thanks for all the help.

RM

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Author: MichaelRead Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9661 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/9/2012 12:05 AM
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Thanks for the explanation on discrete. I was reading some Sony threads on avsforum and a lot of people had the same problem I had and they all contributed it to heat and dry solder connections. In fact many of them tried re-soldering and fixed their machines, at least for a while.

RM


Heat is the destroyer of amps and was one of the reasons I sold my Yamaha RX Z-9 and bought the RX Z-11. The Z-9 ran so hot even the cat couldn’t stay on it (as it does now with the Z-11).

Right now it's just a battle of wills between me and DH. I think I'll be able to get him to understand the discrete amp just fine (he is an EE after all). It's all the other stuff and "why isn't the 373 just good enough, don't let those guys on the Fool sway you", I probably shouldn't mention to him the older version, the v371 which just dropped to $189 on Amazon.

RM, the whole purpose is to sway you. Would hubster buy a cheap multimeter that didn’t have DC measurement? No way. And you shouldn’t buy an amp that doesn’t do what you want in the future. The question is how many features and connections do you need and will you need? My point is get the most you can because in time your needs will change.

We try to live very frugally here. But I am trying to get DH to realize the home theater IS our main entertainment.

Same with Elly and me. I’d guess many on this board the same.


LOL, I have to tell you, my dad gave me the Sony. He was notorious for upgrading his stuff often. It's from him I got my love of music and electronic stuff. I'm looking at all the equipment in this room, the Onkyo stereo music system and the Sony HT system and DH did not have a hand in acquiring a single item except in that he helped pay for it and had to listen to me (sometimes, usually he tries to tune me out, says I get a little too obsessive about it).

There’s a fine line between a hobby and an obsession. I crossed it years ago. Welcome to passion. I haven’t totaled up the cost across the years but the present home theater incarnation is about $25.000. Well, it keeps me out of the pool halls.

Here is a comparison chart from the Yamaha. (threw in the v571) I noted the V -x71 versions don't have that 4k pass through.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amp......


$K is the high, high end of reproduction. No one is producing the media for it and won’t for some time. Even upscaling to 4K is expensive. Right now 4K is used in restoring movies and needs massive computing power to do so. Disregard it.

So which amp do you fancy?

MichaelR

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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9662 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/9/2012 11:26 AM
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So which amp do you fancy?

I am actually thinking about that v571. One of Amazon's partners, Stereo Advantage has it for $329 with free shipping. They are an authorized Yamaha dealer (unlike a couple others listed) so that would help with any warranty problems. Of course, they have all those other shipping hassles should there be a problem, restock fees, etc, I'm jut hoping there wouldn't be any.

It claims to have video upscaling which the v573 does not which I find odd.

"Yes (Analog to HDMI / HDMI to HDMI)"

I'm not sure if that means it's not that good or lacking something or they just decided to drop from this level for a marketing reason.

It has a GUI interface rather than an OSD not sure what the difference is but I'm not concerned.

I can't see whether it has Dolby EX or not.
It is a 7.1 model.

I found this little tidbit on a thread in the avsforum from last year.

"Personally, I would skip over the 571 and goto the 671. As memory serves, the 671 is the step up model where they use discrete amp stages (rather than chip amps,) and upgrade the power supply (compared the 571 and 671 weights.) And there's probably some other step up features. The 600 series is often the sweet spot in Yamaha's lineup, with the cheaper models having the most compromises."

So when you were talking discrete amp, was it this stage or chip thing you meant?

What do you think? or now that I've snuck into the $300-400 range is there something else?

RM

Just cornered DH as he was heading out the door to deer camp and he essentially said he trusted me to find something good, reasonable,that will last "forever". I told him forever is at most 15 years. So at the very least I have officially dumped the v373.

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Author: MichaelRead Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9669 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/9/2012 3:17 PM
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which amp do you fancy?

I am actually thinking about that v571. One of Amazon's partners, Stereo Advantage has it for $329 with free shipping. They are an authorized Yamaha dealer (unlike a couple others listed) so that would help with any warranty problems. Of course, they have all those other shipping hassles should there be a problem, restock fees, etc, I'm jut hoping there wouldn't be any.

It claims to have video upscaling which the v573 does not which I find odd.

RM


I look at the specs and I couldn't find reference to upscaling. But upscaling is what you Really Need. And, since the V571 can handle 7.1, if you decide on extra speakers you’ll have the capability. Better to have than have not.

I found this little tidbit on a thread in the avsforum from last year.

"Personally, I would skip over the 571 and goto the 671. As memory serves, the 671 is the step up model where they use discrete amp stages (rather than chip amps,) and upgrade the power supply (compared the 571 and 671 weights.) And there's probably some other step up features. The 600 series is often the sweet spot in Yamaha's lineup, with the cheaper models having the most compromises."

So when you were talking discrete amp, was it this stage or chip thing you meant?


Discrete means each channel is individually handled (separate Burr-Brown DAC for each) and each has a final stage amplifier. Some times this is a chip and sometimes huge wire-wound transformers. The latter are the most expensive and determining factor having them is speaker selection – some high-end speakers can be quite finicky on what they’re fed and need a specific ohm range to work (most speakers are eight ohms but some high-end get petulant if not fed four-ohms). All your speakers are eight ohms.

Just cornered DH as he was heading out the door to deer camp and he essentially said he trusted me to find something good, reasonable, that will last "forever". I told him forever is at most 15 years. So at the very least I have officially dumped the v373.

Okay I amend my best of situations (cool beer and cool amp) to include a venison burger. Living in the wilds of MI does have its benefits.

MichaelR

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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9674 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/9/2012 8:28 PM
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Discrete means each channel is individually handled (separate Burr-Brown DAC for each) and each has a final stage amplifier. Some times this is a chip and sometimes huge wire-wound transformers.

So does this v571 have the right stuff discrete amp-wise? I don't want to overheat.

From the Overview section at Crutchfied:

Connections:
1080p-compatible HDMI digital video switching (6 in, 1 out)
front panel HDMI connection for HD camcorders and cameras
HDMI version 1.4a with support for 3D video, Audio Return Channel, Deep Color, x.v.Color, auto lip-sync, and HDMI-CEC
analog and HDMI video upscaling to 1080p
Audio Return Channel function receives digital audio signals from a compatible HDTV's tuner via HDMI
component video switching (2 in, 1 out)
digital audio inputs: 2 optical and 2 coaxial
5 audio/video inputs (including 1 front-panel) with composite video
no phono input — to connect a turntable you'll need to add a phono preamp
1 pair of main speaker outputs

Here's a link to the Crutchfield spec sheet

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-3JAxoXxYaiu/p_022RXV571/Yamaha-...

Unless you see something glaring this one looks pretty good to me.

RM

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Author: MichaelRead Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9676 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/9/2012 9:28 PM
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Unless you see something glaring this one looks pretty good to me.

RM


I’d say your search is over. Choose it.

There’s nothing on the items list that would say ‘don’t get it’. Lots of inputs (composite, component, HDMI) so if you upgrade other electronics later you will have the means to do so. Good power range for mains and surrounds. YPAO speaker balancing, upscaling to 1080p, high-end audio codecs, sub pre-out, deep color, and more.

As for heat. Unless you’re driving huge speakers at high volume don’t worry. I’d make sure the amp can breathe but I’d do that with any modern amp.

All in all it would be my choice also. It will make a huge difference in your system and you’ll be surprised at how good your TV is with it.

What we haven’t discussed is sound fields. The RX-V571 has 17 and while you won’t use most of them some are spectacular when used for certain movies. That you’ll enjoy. Plus, and hold me to this, your sub will be more sub-ish.

So when does the friendly UPS guy come?

MichaelR

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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9677 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/9/2012 10:40 PM
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This just seems too quick. I was waiting another 7 weeks and then boom suddenly, due to avr toastiness I have supposedly picked one out.

I may have to sleep on it to make sure.

RM

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Author: RocketsMomma Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 9689 of 10537
Subject: Re: Black Friday is too Far Away!! Date: 10/10/2012 9:57 PM
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I’d say your search is over. Choose it.

I'm trying but every other Amazon page keeps timing out!

AAAARGH

RM

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