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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 63080  
Subject: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/5/2007 11:43 PM
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I'm sure my liberal friends here are all for the working class. But what role does early retirement play among blue collars?


Of course, too many of my blue collar comrades are spending all their money or more on consumer junk, and saving little or nothing. Too many will wind up injured and unable to work, or laid off with few prospects and little in the way of assets.

A number in those categories sleep under bridges or in cars or trucks in my working class neighborhood. Early retired, after a fashion.


But being blue collar doesn't necessarily mean being stupid.

While frugality, thrift and investing are deviant values among blue collars and the middle class as a rule, and efforts to promote such values will often be met with angry hostility, a subculture of frugal blue collars usually exists if the work group is large enough, and frugal people wind up recognizing each other just as gays did when they were forced into the social closet.


So there are blue collars who are saving and investing their money in the stock market, in rental property and in businesses they have built and run. Some can earn loads of money for savings and investment merely by working overtime that is offered at premium pay rates.


I happened to encounter two of my former blue collar co-workers six months ago, and stopped to chat with them. The first words out of the mouth of one were to tell me I should buy a new car, since he apparently held my '85 Plymouth Reliant station wagon I used in my repair business in contempt. I sloughed off that comment and enjoyed chatting with them for a bit. The first guy, about my own age of 57, asked me what my plans were, and I mentioned I was planning to retire within the next year.

He was shocked and angry by that response, and immediately said in tones that were contemptuous, "So you have all the money you will need for the rest of your life?" When I said, "Yes," he shut up.


The other guy, somewhat older, responded by saying, "You need to get married." He had a plan for this lifelong bachelor as well.


Some are prepared. Some will never be prepared. And other can't imagine being prepared for unexpected problems or opportunities.

The utility company I worked for had a number of different blue collar job positions, but most paid pretty much the same wage rates after a while. After twenty years or so of similar opportunities and incomes, it was interesting to note that some of these people were recently bankrupt, and others had a million dollars or more in net worth. you could see the long term results of varying choices in how people spent or used their money. I worked with one well paid fitter who drove his large company truck to buy cocaine at his drug dealer each morning on the way to the worksite ---he wound up being fired when a neighbor complained. But lots of people merely spent their money on consumer junk of various kinds.


On another occasion a year or so ago, I stopped in for coffee among some other of my former blue collar co workers. The subject immediately turned to investments and 401K strategies. One of the people at the table was a twenty something recently hired employee who could hardly believe or understand the conversation going on around him.


A final observation dating back to shortly before I left my blue collar job in 1999 in favor of self employment in my furnace repair business. For decades my blue collar co-workers tended to impress each other by buying new cars, boats or other such stuff and hauling them into the company parking lot to show off. But a new status symbol was now being trotted out to impress people ----401K balances in excess of $100,000. I thought that was very interesting. Judging from the conversation described in the previous paragraph, perhaps that is an increasingly powerful status symbol.




Seattle Pioneer
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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 542 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/5/2007 11:57 PM
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SeattlePioneer says

Some are prepared. Some will never be prepared. And other can't imagine being prepared for unexpected problems or opportunities.

Well you're just such a superior person, how can anyone say anything to you?


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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 544 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:07 AM
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SeattlePioneer says

Some are prepared. Some will never be prepared. And other can't imagine being prepared for unexpected problems or opportunities.

Well you're just such a superior person, how can anyone say anything to you?


Actually, SP is right on in this case. The average savings of people in the US is mind-bogglingly little. Speaking from my own experience, if I may be indulged: I found myself laid off from my aerospace job after the collapse of the USSR. My "peace dividend" was to lose my job. I never expected to work again. Aerospace was shrinking, and having been tarred with that brush, it is nearly impossible to go to another industry. I had around $100,000 total savings.

I got invited to go back to TRW after one year (to the day) as a contract employee. (Less than one year and they have to give you your old position back.) I resolved to never again allow myself th be unemployed and broke. Started an aggressive savings campaign. which I was able to continue for ten years. I am now retired, with more than I ever dreamed of saving. SP's comments about his blue-collar associates apply equally to white collar types. I was there.

cliff

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 547 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:29 AM
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Some are prepared. Some will never be prepared. And other can't imagine being prepared for unexpected problems or opportunities.
This is true of blue-collar people, white collar people, pretty much everyone...It's a continuum.

I know a lot of people in the trades. Many of these people earn well and are smart and hard-working. Some are frivolous and choose to build 10K s.f. houses and buy lots of toys. Some have invested wisely in property (typically also with sweat equity) and will retire well before I will (sob!). I think the "grasshopper vs. ant" thing isn't really a white/blue collar split so much as it is a educated-about-money-or-not-thing.


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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 548 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:33 AM
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I think the "grasshopper vs. ant" thing isn't really a white/blue collar split so much as it is a educated-about-money-or-not-thing.


i think it's genetic.



-b
......and always preferred Satchel Paige's version of the story.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 556 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 3:47 AM
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<<Some are prepared. Some will never be prepared. And other can't imagine being prepared for unexpected problems or opportunities.
This is true of blue-collar people, white collar people, pretty much everyone...It's a continuum.

I know a lot of people in the trades. Many of these people earn well and are smart and hard-working. Some are frivolous and choose to build 10K s.f. houses and buy lots of toys. Some have invested wisely in property (typically also with sweat equity) and will retire well before I will (sob!). I think the "grasshopper vs. ant" thing isn't really a white/blue collar split so much as it is a educated-about-money-or-not-thing.
>>


That's an interesting observation, and implies that the problems of those aiming at early retirement are common to all.

But should good liberals be planning for such luxuries at all? Isn't early retirement really an activity for a wealthy elite to aim for, and by grasping Republicans in particular?




Seattle Pioneer



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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 558 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 4:01 AM
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But should good liberals be planning for such luxuries at all? Isn't early retirement really an activity for a wealthy elite to aim for, and by grasping Republicans in particular?

Whaaaaaaa??????? This is just flame-throwing...and kind of counter-productive.

I don't think the desire to (or ability to) RE is limited to either liberals or conservatives. It would be mighty wierd if it was.

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Author: LudditeAndroid Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 560 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 5:33 AM
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But should good liberals be planning for such luxuries at all? Isn't early retirement really an activity for a wealthy elite to aim for, and by grasping Republicans in particular?


Does framing gross generalizations in question format make them any less immature and inflammatory? Am I going to have to de-fave yet another retire early board for containing more than my recommended daily dosage of headache-inducing, infantile flamewarring? What does the F12 button do? Why am I still awake? Why does anyone even bother arguing with asinine statements like this? Why am I even bothering to reply to something that deserves no humoring and warrants no argument because it's so patently ridiculous? Why on earth would somebody put the word "liberal" in the title of a board without knowing exactly how that movie would end? (It's a sled.)

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Author: parger Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 571 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 8:54 AM
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Actually SP, I have found that this applies not only to blue collars, but also to white collars. I don't agree at all with this statement "frugality, thrift and investing are deviant values among blue collars and the middle class as a rule, and efforts to promote such values will often be met with angry hostility." My family is completely middle class, and consists of WORKERS -- blue, white, pink collar .... whatever. Some are frugal; some are not. I have found that works with all my friends too. But, I tend not to try to categorize people too much -- I just try and take them at face value.

Perhaps you just tend to socialize more with your blue collar counterparts and are just drawing your conclusions from your limited contacts. But, according to the above, even your experience shows that your group consists of people with all sorts of different mindsets.






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Author: parger Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 572 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 8:55 AM
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That's an interesting observation, and implies that the problems of those aiming at early retirement are common to all.

But should good liberals be planning for such luxuries at all? Isn't early retirement really an activity for a wealthy elite to aim for, and by grasping Republicans in particular?



and this pretty much speaks for itself. Silly, silly statement.




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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 584 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 9:29 AM
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<<Some are prepared. Some will never be prepared. And other can't imagine being prepared for unexpected problems or opportunities.>>

Well you're just such a superior person, how can anyone say anything to you?


Good point for discussion. Is saving for ones retirement a good thing and something that should be encouraged and lauded? Could the actions of a person who has saved adequately for retirement be considered "superior" to the actions of a person who has not saved for retirement?


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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 587 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 9:42 AM
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I saw lots of engineers cash in stock options occasionally and go out an buy very expensive toys ($50,000 sports cars, etc).....many of them moved up in housing adding 2000-3000 sq feet to their current house size and maybe $300,000 more in house valuation - used the stock options to make up some of the difference, but still had big mortgage because it provided 'tax deductions'....

Then the telecom bust occurred, and many were left holding the bag....big house, fancy car(s), for him and her, and no money coming in....

Oh, they put away 10% in their 401K, but likely half of them cashed them in when they left since it took months to sell the house, and they had horrendous outflow for their lifestyle.

Many lost a fortune in the dot.com bust...and some were playing on margin and got totally wiped out, plus more....

Almost no one ever talked of 'retiring early'...in the 1990s, playing the market was a 'cash machine'. Working for a telecom company was a cahs machine - good salaries, good raises and you could spend a few years (2 or 3) and change jobs without moving, getting a 20% raise....

then the music stopped, there were 50% less chairs, and the carnage started....

NOw for most it is 'survival mode'...keep a low profile...put in lots of extra hours for free...tough it out till 'times get better'...they aren't......

Few were LBYM types back then.....and even now, most are 'living at their means' and cashed all their home equity long ago..

Newbies are racking up the credit card debt....or paying off what they put on during college...



t.

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 593 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 9:50 AM
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I think the "grasshopper vs. ant" thing isn't really a white/blue collar split so much as it is a educated-about-money-or-not-thing.

Part of it is education, for sure. But part of it may be innate. It's a little bit like dieting in that way.

When my father used to tell me as a kid that I should save my __________ for someday when I really needed it, I listened. My siblings didn't.

Seattle Pioneer may be right that the problems of saving and investing are common to all, but it's a lot easier to save if you make more than minimum wage. And that may be a relative thing. In Arizona, minimum wage is less than in California. It takes more money to live in California.

Vickifool

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Author: mapletree7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 643 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:01 PM
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The first guy, about my own age of 57, asked me what my plans were, and I mentioned I was planning to retire within the next year.

He was shocked and angry by that response, and immediately said in tones that were contemptuous, "So you have all the money you will need for the rest of your life?" When I said, "Yes," he shut up.


This reminds me of a story one of my friends told me in college.

He had decided to 'wait' until marriage until having sex.

When he told people this he also sometimes got an angry reaction.

Usually it was from people who wished they had made different decisions themselves.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 661 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:24 PM
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I got invited to go back to TRW after one year (to the day) as a contract employee. (Less than one year and they have to give you your old position back.) I resolved to never again allow myself th be unemployed and broke. Started an aggressive savings campaign. which I was able to continue for ten years. I am now retired, with more than I ever dreamed of saving. SP's comments about his blue-collar associates apply equally to white collar types. I was there.


It seems to me, just from looking around, that in many cases the people with the smallest income tend to overspend the most, trying to create the appeareance of not being in a low-pay job and/or making themselves feel better about being low-income, i.e. "I can drive a BMW, therefore I'm not in the dumps". It seems almost compulsive.

6


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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 666 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:31 PM
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But should good liberals be planning for such luxuries at all? Isn't early retirement really an activity for a wealthy elite to aim for, and by grasping Republicans in particular?

Why do you have to say that crap? It's so facetious and insulting, and worthless to everyone here.

6

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 668 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:34 PM
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I guess if cliff couldn't have 666, you were the next best bet.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 673 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 12:50 PM
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Why do you have to say that crap? It's so facetious and insulting, and worthless to everyone here.


in hopes of getting a rise out of someone.

.... enough antagonism reinforces his belief that everyone who disagrees with him is carp.

..... enough 'incivility' and he gets the pleasure of FA'ing.


-j
.... it's a great fun game .... been there; done that

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 684 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 1:00 PM
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In a sense, I feel honored.

Why would we have such a large influx of people who apparently call themselves "conservatives", who have a compelling need to to immediately flood the board with a barrage of stereotypes about what "liberals" really believe, bragging about how they should be listened to because they are the experts, taunting people, rarely discussing the specific topic of retiring early?

What fuels their overarching need for our attention?

Deep seated feelings of inferiority?

There was a time when I would have tried to figure it out. Now I would rather have interesting conversations with interesting people, not reward screaming brats with more attention.

Do we have the maturity to do that? I'd give us a C- at this point.

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 686 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 1:00 PM
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SP: But should good liberals be planning for such luxuries at all? Isn't early retirement really an activity for a wealthy elite to aim for, and by grasping Republicans in particular?


SP, WTF is with your obsession with (evil, stupid, communist) liberals? You bring the word into every post, even after promising to be good. It's knee-jerk reaction? Get over yourself, man!

cliff

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 701 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 1:13 PM
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There was a time when I would have tried to figure it out. Now I would rather have interesting conversations with interesting people, not reward screaming brats with more attention.

Do we have the maturity to do that? I'd give us a C- at this point.


C- sounds about right ..... no higher than C+


=

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 720 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 1:51 PM
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Some are prepared. Some will never be prepared.

The larger the data set, the more accurate it tends to be. If we look at "elder America" when Social Security began (a fairly large data set), we find that nearly half of them were living in (the technical definition of) poverty at that time.

According to government statistics (of which there are many more, these days), if Social Security were to end tomorrow, we would find about half the elder population living in (the technical definition of) poverty.

I can therefore conclude that people haven't changed - some are prepared, and some never will be. I can also conclude that "Social Security" and the expectation of it has not changed human behavior, and revert to the same conclusion: "some prepare and some do not", a tale as old as the ant and the grasshopper.

But should good liberals be planning for such luxuries at all? Isn't early retirement really an activity for a wealthy elite to aim for, and by grasping Republicans in particular?

I applaud the virulent stupidity of such statements, for it demonstrates with unapproachable clarity why the other Retirement Board became such a cesspool of ignorance.
 


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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 741 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 2:28 PM
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Good point for discussion. Is saving for ones retirement a good thing and something that should be encouraged and lauded? Could the actions of a person who has saved adequately for retirement be considered "superior" to the actions of a person who has not saved for retirement?


Sure. But it's only one aspect of a person. I may be smart, but I eat poorly. I may work hard, but I rarely call my parents.

SP may be frugal, but he is bereft of compassion. Is he superior or inferior to a person who manages money poorly but cares about other people?

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 759 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 3:08 PM
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SP, WTF is with your obsession with (evil, stupid, communist) liberals? You bring the word into every post, even after promising to be good. It's knee-jerk reaction? Get over yourself, man!

Every post that is a political snipe here is getting FA'd, by me at least.

6

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 765 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 3:17 PM
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<<Good point for discussion. Is saving for ones retirement a good thing and something that should be encouraged and lauded? Could the actions of a person who has saved adequately for retirement be considered "superior" to the actions of a person who has not saved for retirement?>>

Sure. But it's only one aspect of a person. I may be smart, but I eat poorly. I may work hard, but I rarely call my parents.


Of course it is only one aspect, but I thought that that particular aspect is the main topic of discussion on a retirement discussion board.

SP may be frugal, but he is bereft of compassion.

I doubt this is true of someone who is generous and volunteers his time to worthy causes like SP does.

Is he superior or inferior to a person who manages money poorly but cares about other people?

I wasn't talking about superiority of people, I was talking about actions and behaviors. Even if it were appropriate to discuss the superiority or inferiority of particular people here, we hardly know enough about them to make such judgements.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 781 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 3:49 PM
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<<The larger the data set, the more accurate it tends to be. If we look at "elder America" when Social Security began (a fairly large data set), we find that nearly half of them were living in (the technical definition of) poverty at that time.

According to government statistics (of which there are many more, these days), if Social Security were to end tomorrow, we would find about half the elder population living in (the technical definition of) poverty.>>


Can you be more specific about the starting date you refer to? Social Security began around 1937 or so, after bank failures and a horrendous depression drained and bankrupted a lot of people.

There was and is a reasonable argument for government to offer a benefit to the indigent. There is no good argument for government to be paying benefits to the middle class with assets and income, in my opinion.

We could easily afford to continue paying a small benefit to the indigent elderly ---it is not they who threaten to warp the Federal budget in the next few decades. That threat is primarily caused by the practice of paying substantial benefits to the middle class that doesn't need them.

Why strain the government and heavily tax workers to pay benefits to people that don't need them? People like me, for example.


I'd like to see Social Security means tested ---more than it is already. I think there is a very good chance that more of that will happen, as has already happened by devices such as subjecting Social Security benefits to income taxes.


Another thing I'd do right away would be to eliminate early retirement bewnefits at age 62 and not pay benefits until the Normal Retirement Age now approaching age 67. Subsidizing we early retirees with cash payments is ridiculous.


Those who are physically unable to work would continue to be eligible for Social Security Disability, which I consider a reasonable program and which has rigorous enough standards for eligibility that it avoids being too widely abused by those who are primarily tired of working.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 804 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 4:18 PM
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<<SP may be frugal, but he is bereft of compassion. Is he superior or inferior to a person who manages money poorly but cares about other people?

6
>>


Oh, I have plenty of compassion, the objects of my compassion and charity are simply different than yours. This is a diverse and multicultural society and not everyone is going to agree that the people you may want to help deserve or will benefit from that help, and may even be harmed by it.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: PineyLevel Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 820 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 4:40 PM
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I'm sure my liberal friends here are all for the working class. But what role does early retirement play among blue collars? . . . blah blah . . . being blue collar doesn't necessarily mean being stupid. . . . yap yap . . . frugality, thrift and investing are deviant values among blue collars and the middle class . . . yadda yadda frugal people wind up recognizing each other just as gays did when they were forced into the social closet . . . yip yip . . . happened to encounter two of my former blue collar co-workers . . . first words out of the mouth of one were to tell me I should buy a new car . . . blah blah . . . final observation dating back to shortly before I left my blue collar job in 1999 in favor of self employment in my furnace repair business . . . etc. etc. Seattle Pioneer

What are you doing here?? I thought this board was started in self defense as an alternative to your relentlessly cold point of view. Are you just here to needle people?





















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Author: am4u Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 874 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 7:47 PM
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The man who used to mount tires at Sears you to tell me when I was younger than I am now, "better save your money-you're gonna need it when you get old".


Still true....


am4u

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 891 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 9:54 PM
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There was and is a reasonable argument for government to offer a benefit to the indigent. There is no good argument for government to be paying benefits to the middle class with assets and income, in my opinion.

You have to remember that liberals have a completely different mindset. To a liberal, the proper function of government is to protect people from their own irresponsibility, laziness, and ignorance. In fact, these are qualities deserving of reward, according to the liberal mentality, because these people weren't lucky enough to be born responsible, hard working, and thoughtful. The level of their reward is in direct proportion to their irresponsibility, laziness, and ignorance, just as the punishment for those who are responsible, hard working, and thoughtful is in direct proportion to the level of these qualities. In the bizarro world of liberals, vice is virtue, and virtue is vice.

Why strain the government and heavily tax workers to pay benefits to people that don't need them? People like me, for example.

Because liberals are noble, and they know what is best for you.

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Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 903 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 11:19 PM
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You have to remember that liberals have a completely different mindset. To a liberal, the proper function of government is to protect people from their own irresponsibility, laziness, and ignorance. In fact, these are qualities deserving of reward, according to the liberal mentality, because these people weren't lucky enough to be born responsible, hard working, and thoughtful.

Hey everybody! Sean Hannity is here!

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 904 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/6/2007 11:25 PM
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Hey everybody! Sean Hannity is here!


i think you may have insulted Hannity.


=

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Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 940 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 9:12 AM
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{{SP may be frugal, but he is bereft of compassion. Is he superior or inferior to a person who manages money poorly but cares about other people?}}


I do not understand your compulsive desire to trash SP. If he was "bereft of compassion" as you say, why does he volunteer?


c

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 961 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 10:02 AM
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Hey everybody! Sean Hannity is here!


i think you may have insulted Hannity.






And that's not easy to do.

AM

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1166 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 3:00 PM
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You have to remember that liberals have a completely different mindset. To a liberal, the proper function of government is to protect people from their own irresponsibility, laziness, and ignorance. In fact, these are qualities deserving of reward, according to the liberal mentality, because these people weren't lucky enough to be born responsible, hard working, and thoughtful
.
Hey everybody! Sean Hannity is here!


Nah. This would pass as "thoughtful" from Hannity. This is even more ignorant.
 


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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1216 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 4:05 PM
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You have to remember that liberals have a completely different mindset. To a liberal, the proper function of government is to protect people from their own irresponsibility, laziness, and ignorance. In fact, these are qualities deserving of reward, according to the liberal mentality, because these people weren't lucky enough to be born responsible, hard working, and thoughtful.

Hey everybody! Sean Hannity is here!


Nice try, but I'm a libertarian, not a conservative.

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Author: TMFJeanie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1236 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 5:06 PM
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...according to the liberal mentality, because these people weren't lucky enough to be born responsible, hard working, and thoughtful. The level of their reward is in direct proportion to their irresponsibility, laziness, and ignorance,....

Oh what a bunch of stereotyping poppycock!

I'm of a "liberal mentality" and so is my DH.
I retired at age 51; he at age 59.
We have a nice paid-for home, no debt, and enough money to live on for the rest of our lives with plenty left over for our heirs to p!ss away if they choose :-)

No one ever gave us anything. It was all accumulated through decades of hard work, saving/investing, and somehow we managed to enjoy life along the way.

How do you supppose that happened? I tend to credit our parents, Depression Era FDR Liberals who instilled a sense of responsibility and the merits of education and hard work.


Jeanie

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Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1244 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 5:32 PM
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You handle stupid people better than almost anybody I have seen, 6.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1256 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 6:29 PM
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You handle stupid people better than almost anybody I have seen, 6.


Since I plan to grovel for free advice at this board for a long time, at least I can try and distract the nasties for awhile.

6

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Author: MDGluon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1269 of 63080
Subject: Re: Blue Collar Early Retirement Date: 2/7/2007 7:03 PM
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Hey everybody! Sean Hannity is here!

Nice try, but I'm a libertarian, not a conservative.


That is ok...Sean Hannity is not a conservative either...he is an entertainer...part of the EVIL Holy Wood crowd.

md


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