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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22701  
Subject: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/20/2012 11:57 AM
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This article mentions a recent protest against the Technion for offering men-only workout time after normal gym hours: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?...

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The ferocious protest against this “unacceptable segregation” resulted in the gym ceasing to provide this option.

This would be incomprehensible to Americans. After all, [American] gyms that offer hours for one gender only. It’s not as though the gym at the Technion was imposing on women, or excluding them in any way; it was a matter of giving an after-hours option which was equally offered to women…

[W]hen one looks at the arguments of the protesters, a distinct theme emerges. It wasn’t the separate hours at the gym per se that offended them. Rather, it was the fear that this was simply one step towards the more extreme exclusion of women that has recently been spreading from the haredi community…

[A]llowing such fears to prevent a perfectly reasonable request, such as men-only gym sessions after hours, is not only wrong but counter-productive. It simply reinforces the haredi belief – which is not without basis – that there is a rabid, nation-wide anti-religious campaign against them, and that they thus need to circle the wagons and resist any accommodation to the rest of Israeli society.
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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21760 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/20/2012 1:44 PM
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The ferocious protest against this “unacceptable segregation” resulted in the gym ceasing to provide this option.

This would be incomprehensible to Americans. After all, [American] gyms that offer hours for one gender only. It’s not as though the gym at the Technion was imposing on women, or excluding them in any way; it was a matter of giving an after-hours option which was equally offered to women…


This is a false presentation. The Technion tried to provide "men only" hours at the request of a couple of religious students. It did not offer "women only" hours.

[W]hen one looks at the arguments of the protesters, a distinct theme emerges. It wasn’t the separate hours at the gym per se that offended them. Rather, it was the fear that this was simply one step towards the more extreme exclusion of women that has recently been spreading from the haredi community…

Right. The radicalization of haredi behavioral norms is spreading and affecting all of Israeli society. People are fighting back, as they should.

[A]llowing such fears to prevent a perfectly reasonable request, such as men-only gym sessions after hours, is not only wrong but counter-productive. It simply reinforces the haredi belief – which is not without basis – that there is a rabid, nation-wide anti-religious campaign against them, and that they thus need to circle the wagons and resist any accommodation to the rest of Israeli society.

The haredi belief in Israel seems to be that women are to be hidden and excluded from any public presence. That is the extremist view that has come to dominate the haredi community. Haredi is becoming synonymous with Taliban, and the dangers of that are manifest.

Here is the latest small manifestation from today's news -
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/religious-zionist-bulle...

These outrageous notions of "modesty" are spreading, as you can see, from the haredi to the religious zionist sector.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21762 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/22/2012 10:28 AM
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The Technion… did not offer "women only" hours.

Your claim is contradicted by the facts. This story was reported over a month ago: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/227006#.Tx...

The Technion Institute of Technology is experimenting with reserving separate gym time for men and women
(emphasis mine)

The radicalization of haredi behavioral norms is spreading and affecting all of Israeli society. People are fighting back…

Do you think gyms in the US offer separate women-only hours because they are bowing to Haredi pressure? Or are you reacting in a knee-jerk fashion to a common-sense idea merely because Haredim supported it?

Here is the latest small manifestation from today's news -

How ironic that the example you cite was an admitted error! From the article to which you linked: “The publishing of the advertisement in this way was an error and did not mean to cause any harm. The Institute apologized to the family and the apology was accepted by the family with complete understanding.”

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21764 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/22/2012 3:14 PM
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Do you think gyms in the US offer separate women-only hours because they are bowing to Haredi pressure? Or are you reacting in a knee-jerk fashion to a common-sense idea merely because Haredim supported it?

This is not a knee jerk reaction. The policy that the Technion tried to impose was not a "common sense" idea. It was a request made by religious students motivated by false religious strictures and intended to impose their norms on the whole student body. Ultimately, no one else in the student body wanted the change and it was rescinded.

This would not make headlines if it was not part of a trend toward excluding womens' presence from all public places. Women in Bet Shemesh and Jerusalem are being relegated to separate sidewalks. They are being verbally abused and spat on. The Jewish Taliban are on the march. I can't believe you would want to have anything to do with such outrages.

With your knowledge of American history and culture, I'd like to know what you think of the symbolism of women being forced to sit in the back of the bus.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21766 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/22/2012 4:02 PM
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The policy that the Technion tried to impose was not a "common sense" idea.

And yet it's a very common offering for gyms in America. Again, I ask you, do you think they're doing it because of Haredi pressure? Or do you think that just perhaps their overwhelmingly gentile customers want it?

intended to impose their norms on the whole student body.
How would having after-hours men-only and women-only sessions force anything on the rest of the student body? The rest of the student body would have exactly the same options for exactly the same number of hours they had before, plus a new option for gender-segregated workout time.

Elan, you usually have very good arguments (and very good rebuttals to my arguments), but I don't see anything here except anti-haredi hysteria.

Basically, you're arguing that everyone EXCEPT the haredi students should get what they want. And that the haredi students should get what they want even if it doesn't deprive anyone else in the slightest way.

How is that not bigotry?

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21767 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/22/2012 6:03 PM
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I don't see anything here except anti-haredi hysteria.

So you call opposition to sgeregation to the back of the bus hysteria?

You call opposition to spitting on women because they dare walk on the wrong side of the street hysteria?

There is a Taliban style oppression of women spreading through whole communities in Israel. Leave the Technion alone. It was a minor incident. Look at the broader scene. The fact that you chose not to respond to my points about that leads me to think that you are complacent toward such behavior.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21768 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/22/2012 8:37 PM
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So you call opposition to sgeregation to the back of the bus hysteria?

No, but that's not what your post (or the article) was about. Your post was against adding after-hours gender-segregated gym access, something that's not extreme, and common among American gyms with no Jewish members.

A few times now I've asked if you think those American gyms are bowing to haredi pressure. You've declined to answer.

Leave the Technion alone. It was a minor incident.
If it was so minor, why has the anti-haredi reaction been so strident? Why is your reaction so strident? Why are you so opposed to this thing which didn't involve enforcing haredi standards for non-haredim, and deprived the non-haredim of nothing?

It's your reaction which I find extreme — in the same way that I find those haredim who spit on women extreme.

You seem to be two sides of the same coin of intolerance.

I tend to have a libertarian outlook, and so long as people don't want to force their views on me, I don't mind how they choose to live their lives.

Let's not leave the Technion story alone. I'd really like you to explain why you so oppose this policy that's commonplace in the US, and which inconveniences nobody. How is your trying to force your values on the haredim any different from them trying to force their values on you?

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21769 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/23/2012 3:08 PM
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Let's not leave the Technion story alone. I'd really like you to explain why you so oppose this policy that's commonplace in the US, and which inconveniences nobody. How is your trying to force your values on the haredim any different from them trying to force their values on you?

Well, if you want to beat a dead horse, fine.

The story came up about two months ago. Some women students went to the gym at their accustomed time and discovered that it had suddenly become a "men only" time, and they objected. The Technion DID establish just "men only" hours, but not corresponding "women only" hours. My objection was to the fact that this policy was put in place at the request of religious students based on their twisted social norms (which have nothing to do with religious belief), and for no other reason. Gyms everywhere often have some separate hours for men and women, at the gym itself and in gym classes. It's usually at the request of some women who are concerned with sexual harassment and voyeurism. The Technion case was not the same.

I'm not trying to force my values on haredim. The haredim in Israel are trying to force their values on a whole society. I'm just supporting the values of the libertarians in that society.

The problem with the haredi behavior, and it's not just spitting on women by a few extremists, is that they try to impose their standards of behavior not only on haredi women but on ALL women. There are dozens of bus lines in Jerusalem and elsewhere in Israel that are segregated. ALL women have to sit at the back of the bus, not just haredi women. There is no difference between this segregation and Selma Alabama circa 1956. There is a large segement of the haredi community in Israel whose norms and goals are no different from those of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21770 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/23/2012 4:38 PM
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Your post contradicts several facts from the newspaper article I cited.

Some women students went to the gym at their accustomed time…
Were they accustomed to going after the gym closed? Because the article, the "men only" time was after normal operating hours.

The Technion DID establish just "men only" hours, but not corresponding "women only" hours.

Again, according to the article, they offered both "men only" and "women only" hours.

I cited a source for the facts I reported. Can you cite a source for yours? Is it possible you heard the story 2nd-hand, from someone who got the details wrong? Or perhaps your just misremembering it?

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21771 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 1/23/2012 7:50 PM
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Your post contradicts several facts from the newspaper article I cited.

Some women students went to the gym at their accustomed time…
Were they accustomed to going after the gym closed? Because the article, the "men only" time was after normal operating hours.

The Technion DID establish just "men only" hours, but not corresponding "women only" hours.

Again, according to the article, they offered both "men only" and "women only" hours.

I cited a source for the facts I reported. Can you cite a source for yours? Is it possible you heard the story 2nd-hand, from someone who got the details wrong? Or perhaps your just misremembering it?


I saw the story on Israeli TV news the day it was broadcast (the broadcast is delayed in the US by a few hours). They had a live shot of the women being turned away during what used to be co-ed gym hours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzyTUB1zmPk
This is a Youtube segment about the incident. The caption says that 15 women students were told to leave because two religious students demanded that they do so.

These, by the way, are not haredi students. They are "kipot srugot", from the religious zionist community. The exclusion of women is spreading to that community which was never extremist at all. Talibanism is on the march.

It turns out that after the initial storm died down the Technion did establish separate times for men and women, and there seems to be no controversy about it any more. The men's hours are Monday & Wednesday 11:30pm to 1am. The women's hours are Tuesday & Thursday 11:30pm to 1am.
http://technion-gym.com/index.php?m_id=14&if_link=0

Elan

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21871 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 3/26/2012 1:58 PM
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Some of the students that requested separate hours at the Technion were dati Muslims. And I believe there may well be more dati Muslims attending Technion than there are Charedim.

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21872 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 3/26/2012 5:35 PM
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Some of the students that requested separate hours at the Technion were dati Muslims. And I believe there may well be more dati Muslims attending Technion than there are Charedim.

Link please.

Elan

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 21873 of 22701
Subject: Re: Building tolerance – even for haredim Date: 3/26/2012 6:49 PM
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Link please.

I'm searching and searching and can't find it. Sadly I think I read it in the Hebrew press and my Hebrew search skills suck :(

But I swear I read somewhere that the request for separate hours was also made by some practicing Muslims!

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