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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 71408  
Subject: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 2:34 PM
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I visited the local Lincoln-Mercury deler yesterday - the one with 2 '06 Montego's on the lot. I was out running errands with my son, and I wanted to get a price. I was quickly approached in the parking lot, and I told them that I was interested in one of those 2 cars. As usual, they couldn't tell me anything outside, we were walked into the showroom where I was introduced to the salesmanager. They started to go through the usual "song and dance" and I stopped them and said, "I don't want to waste your time. I have about 2 minutes and I'd like to get a price." They hemmed and hawed, the salespaerson walked away, and came back and said they needed some time. (I was wondering what they needed time for - either you know the price or you don't.)

Anyway, I gave the salesperson my phone number and asked her to call me at home, because I didn't have the time to sit around and wait. At first, she said, "I don't give out prices over the phone." I said thanks, and started to walk out, and she ran over to the sales manager, and came back and said, "we'll call you with a price." They never did - business must be pretty good. I'll stop in again though in a few weeks - if the cars are still there, I'll try again.
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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55634 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 2:48 PM
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I don't want to waste your time. I have about 2 minutes and I'd like to get a price." They hemmed and hawed, the salespaerson walked away, and came back and said they needed some time. (I was wondering what they needed time for - either you know the price or you don't.)

You are what we refer to as a "2 percenter" Most salespeople don't deal well with the 2%ers because each one is different and they don't get enough experience to deal with them effectively. The result is that most would really just rather not deal with you (not you specifically) and move on to the next 98%er.

If you acted more like a buyer, I'm sure the dealerships you visit would in turn act more like sellers.

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55636 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 3:30 PM
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You are what we refer to as a "2 percenter" Most salespeople don't deal well with the 2%ers because each one is different and they don't get enough experience to deal with them effectively. The result is that most would really just rather not deal with you (not you specifically) and move on to the next 98%er.

Those dealers are what we refer to as "pains in the butt" because "a car" should have "a price", not an infinite number of variables with an infinite number of prices. If got our answer in 2 minutes, we'd be happy, but if anything, it should be less than 10 seconds.

Yeah, there's those that LOVE negotiating, badgering, bartering, and all that. Some of us are NOT those kind of people. Last time I brought this up, Dean said we could just go ahead and pay sticker. C'mon!!!!


We just want to know what our optimum price is for a vehicle in a minimum of time. If it sounds okay, we'll jump on it, otherwise we'll just head out the door and compare with another dealer if possible. If he puts out a single price in 10 seconds, fine, we'll take that and compare. Just pretty much like if I go and compare buying a PC printer at a BestBuy, a CircuitCity, a Fry's, or CompUSA. I'll see the exact printer in all 4 places, check their prices and/or any ongoing sales/discounts, look at it in 10 seconds and decide or walk. That is, I'll visit four places in less than an hour and get the best deal out of the four. I don't wanna play "where's the sales manager hiding?" and sit in a dealership for four hours, spending 3 hours agonizing over the last $1000 in the deal.

That's nuts, Todd. Some customers are used to and even WANT to play those games. I don't and neither does the OP. Not being able to answer the question of what the price is in 2 minutes is absolutely ridiculous.


Rant, rant, rant.



Duck

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55637 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 3:32 PM
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JM does what he does because he enjoys it. Otherwise he'd stop doing it.

He doesn't want to go about this in a rational, effective, efficient manner. If he did, what would he come here and complain about?

I'd bet a dollar that if JM added up all the time he spent on the car buying process, it'd take him a whole lot more time than the hour and a half to two hours it'd take a sensible, educated buyer.

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55638 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 3:39 PM
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That's nuts, Todd. Some customers are used to and even WANT to play those games. I don't and neither does the OP. Not being able to answer the question of what the price is in 2 minutes is absolutely ridiculous.


Duck, it isn't "some", it is most. You and the OP are the exception. I'm not defending the dealer or the salesperson. I'm just trying to shed light on the rationale behind the behavior. Of course it is my opinion, but I think it is an informed opinion.

It is human nature to follow the path of least resistance. Salespeople are humans and since they only make money on commission in most cases, they probably chose to put effort into those activities that bear the most fruit. Spending time and energy on someone who comes in the dealership with the frame of mind of the OP immediately puts up a wall that takes time, effort and energy to overcome. It is easier just to move on.

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Author: MonksterFool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55639 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 5:27 PM
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Spending time and energy on someone who comes in the dealership with the frame of mind of the OP immediately puts up a wall that takes time, effort and energy to overcome. It is easier just to move on.


Actually it shouldn't take any time, energy and effort. Just give him a price and he will either stay or walk.

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55641 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 5:54 PM
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Duck, it isn't "some", it is most. You and the OP are the exception. I'm not defending the dealer or the salesperson. I'm just trying to shed light on the rationale behind the behavior. Of course it is my opinion, but I think it is an informed opinion.

I know, Todd, you live and breath this stuff every day. But as for customers WANTING to play these games, I seriously doubt that.

Y'all want me to put up a poll here and ask how many folks would rather spend hours bargaining rather than just get a simple answer up front?

I think you'd be surprised.



Duck

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55643 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:02 PM
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But as for customers WANTING to play these games, I seriously doubt that.

A lot of people say that, Duck. But most people keep a car for three or four or five years. That's just an awfully long time to doubt. Imagine walking into a dealership and saying "I'll give you $23,250 for the Blue one" and having the salesman jump up and shout "I'll TAKE IT!"

You'll spend the next 65,000 miles thinking "I shoulda offered him $22k!"

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Author: GuildWarsQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55644 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:02 PM
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Yeah, there's those that LOVE negotiating, badgering, bartering, and all that. Some of us are NOT those kind of people. Last time I brought this up, Dean said we could just go ahead and pay sticker. C'mon!!!!


DH and I print out the price from www.carsdirect.com and ask the dealer to beat it. If they can't, we just leave.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55645 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:03 PM
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"If you acted more like a buyer, I'm sure the dealerships you visit would in turn act more like sellers."

I was being honest with them - I didn't want to waste their time. I didn't need a big time sales job because I'm already "sold" on the merits of the car. I was just looking for the price.

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55646 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:07 PM
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Actually it shouldn't take any time, energy and effort. Just give him a price and he will either stay or walk.


Yes, it sure sounds easy doesn't it?

The salesperson doesn't really know the "price" other than the MSRP or if the vehicle is tagged with a sale price. To get the price, he must go to his manager who will ask him all kinds of questions about the customer and his objectives, trade, timeframe, etc. All this is an attempt by the dealership to "gasp" maximize their profit.

One of the hardest things I had to come to terms with going into retail was the fact that price is really a very small part of the vehicle transaction. Value is certainly important as is getting the customer to, for lack of a better term, "fall in love with the vehicle". I had a situation just yesterday where we had worked with a customer for over a week and just couldn't come to terms on his lease numbers. Over and over he kept coming back with the fact that the Audi he was looking at, and about to buy was the price he wanted to pay. Finally, I asked him, if the Audi deal was so great, why was he still talking to us? This was after quite a few meetings and conversations and it wasn't really confrontational, I just was curious. His response was that he liked our vehicle better. We were talking about a 4 year lease and the difference was like $30 a month. I had nothing left to give up so I reiterated the value of the vehicle, our dealership, his preference and that with his income, certainly he could afford to pay $30 more a month for something he liked that much better...did he want to be driving a car he wasn't thrilled with for 4 years?... He kept going back to the Audi was a more expensive vehicle, but a bigger discount and better lease payment. BUT IT ISN'T THE VEHICLE YOU WANT! Bottom line is he did buy our vehicle.

If he had come in, not driven the vehicle, not seen the VALUE, but only been given a price, he certainly wouldn't have leased from us...even at our absolute lowest price.

The price, invoice, retail, incentives, etc. are all rather easy to come across with a little bit of research. What is harder to do is to build value in the dealership, specific vehicle, relationship and all the "touchy feely" parts of the transaction. Buying a vehicle is a very emotional event for MOST people (not necessarily Fools) and they want to be shown the love.

Often times the person looking for the 2 minute "price" will take that information to your competitors and there will ALWAYS be someone willing to beat you on price...even if by only $20 or $50 or something. But of course, this is such a small portion of the general population, it isn't significant to the dealer and especially to the salesperson.

Does any of this make sense? I'm just trying to put things in a different perspective.

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Author: wecoguy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55647 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:07 PM
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let's see, we can't seem to trust the Sales side of the business, we can't seem to trust the Service side of the business, just what is left? Carnies have done a slicker job of fleecing the rubes it seems to this reluctant Buyer. A lot more of us fit into Ducks or the OP's category than not. All the OP asked was a ballpark starting number to chew on, no paper, just a number. prime example of why the auto sales floor is a lonely place.

weco

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55648 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:08 PM
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"I'd bet a dollar that if JM added up all the time he spent on the car buying process, it'd take him a whole lot more time than the hour and a half to two hours it'd take a sensible, educated buyer.
"

Dean - I am looking for a fast transaction. That's why I said I only had a few minutes. I didn't want to waste their time. They seemed like they wanted to drag the process out, not me. That's why I left quickly.

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55649 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:08 PM
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Duck, if it were so, more dealers/car makers would have non-negotiable prices.

I don't think the typical Fool is representative of the general public, so a poll here would not really be very meaningful.

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55650 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:10 PM
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Then call up the manager or hit the internet sales manager with an email rather than wasting a commissioned sales person's time.

You'll get what you want, they get what they want.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55651 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:21 PM
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"Then call up the manager or hit the internet sales manager with an email rather than wasting a commissioned sales person's time. You'll get what you want, they get what they want."

It is an fascinating contradiction. The salesperson wants to sell cars, and I'm conscious of that, so I ask for a "fast" price so as not to waste their time, but some might still perceive me as wasting their time. Sales is certainly an interesting business!

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Author: MonksterFool Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55652 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:25 PM
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Does any of this make sense? I'm just trying to put things in a different perspective.


Obviously their goal is to maximize profit. If I were the salesperson in this case, or the manager, if I knew this guy just wanted a price, I would give him the one that would maximize my profit. Who knows? Maybe he would atually take it, if so then great. If he goes to a competitor than I have not lost anything but the 10 seconds it took to look uo the price that would maximize my profit. By not giving him anything, there is zero chance of making any profit.

Seems like a no lose situation.

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55653 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:34 PM
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I am looking for a fast transaction. That's why I said I only had a few minutes. I didn't want to waste their time. They seemed like they wanted to drag the process out, not me. That's why I left quickly.

You didn't want a fast transaction - you told them you had 2 minutes - that's not enough time to buy a car so you clearly weren't a buyer.

For my last 3 purchases, I had the price of the car before I went to the dealership - they knew I was interested in buying a car and would be showing up to get it done. I got there, drove the car and bought it. 2 were used, one was new. 2 different dealerships.

rad

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Author: Snowytenn2 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55654 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 6:49 PM
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prime example of why the auto sales floor is a lonely place.



Seriously, there is nothing I detest more than dealing with car sales people. The last four new cars I bought, I bought via the internet. I did my own comparisons, researched and obtained my own financing, and never went to the dealership until it was time to pick up the cars. Maybe I paid a few dollars more than if I had dealt directly with a salesperson, but it was worth every penny!

Jim

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Author: MoneyPenny07 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55655 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 7:19 PM
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I have found the best way to get a price quickly, in a no-hassle environment, is to request one online from various local dealerships. If they ask me to verify that I am who I say I am (as opposed to someone actually trying to get competitive info from another dealer) - I am happy to verify my credentials.


For our last 2 purchases, I conducted reverse auctions and found the price spread to be astounding. Of course, I purchased from the lowest offerors, who were more than happy to deliver the automobiles personally to our doorstep.


MP

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55659 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 8:06 PM
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The salesperson wants to sell cars,

No, the salesperson wants to make money. He will maximize his efforts to do so. You did not act like a buyer. A car transaction takes much more than 2 minutes, so the salesperson discounted you as someone that would likely take their time and not earn them any money. I'm not saying that is the right attitude, but it is reality. If you happen to run into a good salesperson, you may get what you want, but the good ones are few and far between and the odds are good that you will run into a fair or poor one.

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Author: martybl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55660 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 8:36 PM
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I'd bet a dollar that if JM added up all the time he spent on the car buying process, it'd take him a whole lot more time than the hour and a half to two hours it'd take a sensible, educated buyer.

Agreed - there are just certain social expectations that ignoring creates more trouble than it's worth. I've bought five new cars in the last eight years, so I've got some experience in the process. I expect that I'm going to look at cars on the lot or in the showroom for a few minutes, until somebody approaches me. I then expect that they'll ask me what I'm interested in. I've already done my research on the Internet and the automotive press, and it's not unusual that I know more about the specific car and options than the salesman, since I've usually spent awhile playing with options on the manufacturer's "build a car" website.

Regardless, I'll expect the salesman to accompany me on a test drive, where we'll make small talk. We'll then go to a cubicle, where I'll make an offer pretty close to where I expect to end up. He'll then disappear to talk to a sales manager, or return with the manager, while I read the literature. We'll agree, and if the car's on the lot, move on to the F&I guy. Total time - like you say - 90-120 minutes.

It's just a little crass to introduce yourself with - "Hey - how much - ya got two minutes or I'm outta here." I was just at a jewelry store in the mall this afternoon, where again there is some flexibility in prices, and I wouldn't do that with a $3000 watch, much less a $30,000 car. Sort of like walking into a singles bar, "Hey, nice bazongas, ya wanna, like, get it on." Style points count in most areas of life, including buying a car.

As for negotiating a price over the Internet or phone, and just picking up the car at the dealer, I actually like knowing a salesman. I usually plan on getting my car serviced at the dealer I purchase it at, and having a salesman give you a favorable introduction to a service writer seems helpful.

martybl

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55661 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:12 PM
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Does any of this make sense? I'm just trying to put things in a different perspective.


Sorry, Todd, but we're all playing The World Tiniest Violin for you in sympathy for your dealers' plight.

Your suggestion is losing, currently, at about 9 to 4 at this moment in the poll after this thread.



Duck

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55662 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:16 PM
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I don't think the typical Fool is representative of the general public, so a poll here would not really be very meaningful.

Todd, I don't see why anyone of average intelligence, patience, or wealth would want to put themselves through hell with these games. I could invite the LBYM folks over to look at this poll and maybe they'd side WITH you, but many of those folks would gladly beat up a car salesman for six continuous hours to get that last $100 of the deal.

Most folks coming here to the car board are just folks looking for cars, period and want advice on how to do it the best way possible, not get talked into believing chewing your own arm off for six hours is a pleasurable and admirable thing.


Duck

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55664 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:20 PM
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Duck, with all due respect, you are about the most stubborn, closed minded person I have ever run across on the boards. I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm not looking for understanding. As far as I'm concerned you can rant and rave and get taken advantage of the rest of your life.

I'm just trying to shed some light on the process from the other side of the fence. Perhaps that insight can make the car buying process easier for someone willing to listen and process that information. I'm sure it won't happen with you and my posts are not directed to you specifically.

I have no doubt that when asked, most people, especially Fools, will answer the way you want them to in you silly poll. Reality is that people don't want set pricing when it comes to automobiles. For those that do, there are car buying services which assure you of at least getting a fair deal. However, the best deals are to be made by negotiating inteligently with the dealer yourself.

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55665 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:22 PM
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We can all relate to your lack of perspective and rationality as shown by your recent oil change fiasco.

Go back to your cave and try not to interact with society so much. It appears that bad things happen more often than not when you do.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55667 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:23 PM
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"It's just a little crass to introduce yourself with - "Hey - how much - ya got two minutes or I'm outta here." "

I respect your view, but really, I wasn't there on a social outing, and the salesperson isn't my friend. This is a business transaction, and I was looking for a price. I really do respect their right to not want to do business that way. I was asking a simple question, "how much does the car cost" and for whatever reason, they chose not to answer it.

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55668 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:23 PM
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No, the salesperson wants to make money. He will maximize his efforts to do so.

Which explains the sorry state of car sales practices today. It's in their best interest to drag you along, to either bend or break you and make you feel like crap, in order for THEM to make money on the car.

Yeah, I've had two Saturns before as well and didn't have to put up with that crap.

The times I DID go the negotiating route, I left feeling like I really never wanted to set foot in there again after wheeling and dealing for six hours, even with leaving, driving away the car.


Duck

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55669 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:24 PM
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The times I DID go the negotiating route, I left feeling like I really never wanted to set foot in there again after wheeling and dealing for six hours, even with leaving, driving away the car.


I'm sure you weren't the only one

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55671 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:42 PM
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Duck, with all due respect, you are about the most stubborn, closed minded person I have ever run across on the boards.

Todd, with all due respect, I have OFTEN pointed to you as an expert and as an automotive professional. I feel that your insult is unnecessary.

I'm just trying to shed some light on the process from the other side of the fence.

That, Todd, is a euphemism for defending such sorry-@$$ sales practices in this day and age. In no other sales arena, whether it's real-estate, clothing retail, electronics, computers, or even home-improvement sales have we, the consumer, have to put up with such atrocities.

I've been lied to time and time again by car sales personnel, and it doesn't surprise me that they still rate in moral judgement somewhere between child molesters and carnival workers.

I've given all my reasons and rants for the last seven years here in this board and you're well aware of them, Todd. The way new car sales practices are today is still a crime, even after the Monroney sticker law in 1958.

I will still continue to offer you as an expert on these boards, Todd, it's just that we all have our opinions, some more loudly voiced than others I will admit.



Duck

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55672 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:46 PM
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"I've been lied to time and time again by car sales personnel"

I must say, when we bought a new car last Summer, over the course of several visits, I caught the saleperson in numerous half-truths at best, and complete lies, at worse. I tend to take notes on everything they tell me, and in this transaction, it was amazing to compare those notes and see how many times they contradicted themselves. I'm only talking about this specific transaction, not making a judgement on all auto sales transactions.

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55673 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 9:47 PM
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A lot of people say that, Duck. But most people keep a car for three or four or five years. That's just an awfully long time to doubt. Imagine walking into a dealership and saying "I'll give you $23,250 for the Blue one" and having the salesman jump up and shout "I'll TAKE IT!"

If indeed, for example, the car I was looking at was stickered at $33,500, and if I offered only $23,500 and a salesman (or sales manager) jumped on it, and if indeed I had researched the car carefully and felt that was the right number to toss out, then I'd feel good about it.

However, if the car was stickered at $24,500 and I know I just shot off a number without research or even thinking about it for a short time (a few days or so), then indeed I'd have regrets.

The situation usually doesn't present itself like that.


Duck

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55674 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 10:43 PM
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Yeah, I've had two Saturns before as well and didn't have to put up with that crap.

Maybe you should stick to Saturns. Personally, I like haggling.

IF

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Author: ToddTruby Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55675 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 11:18 PM
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I don't know how you twisted my comments into some kind of defense of lying salespeople. That you did just continues to show your inability to see beyond your own personal experience and learn something.

I'm talking about basic human behavior and specifically commissioned sales people and what motivates them....or more specifically what does NOT motivate them. Additionally, ways you can use that to your advantage in dealing with them...or at least ways to make the process more appealing.

There are lying, sleazy people selling all kinds of things. I'm not saying car dealers and salespeople are beyond reproach or that their reputation isn't deserved. However, for every dealer that is still in the 1950s, I think there are an equal number that have progressed and are in tune with the times. That doesn't mean that going in and saying you have 2 minutes for a price will get you what you want.

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55678 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 11:34 PM
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My good friend, you are wrestling with pigs.

Better to discuss the merits of Subarus and BMW's with Marty and RAD, in my opinion.

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55681 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/19/2007 11:55 PM
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I don't know how you twisted my comments into some kind of defense of lying salespeople.

If the shoe fits....


I'm talking about basic human behavior and specifically commissioned sales people and what motivates them....or more specifically what does NOT motivate them. Additionally, ways you can use that to your advantage in dealing with them...or at least ways to make the process more appealing.

I don't want to waste time over-analyzing the psychological profile of a car salesman, I just want to buy a car, dang it.

You don't seem to get it.

I'm not absolutely declaring all new car sales personnel are toads, but it doesn't help the image if they continue to enforce that image by the OP's experience at the very beginning of this now lengthy thread.

You're convinced "buyers want this". You may not give a rip about that poll I put up, but I believe it has some signifigance.

I believe we'll still probably never agree on this, Todd.


Politely yours,

Duck

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Author: martybl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55686 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 2:34 AM
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I wasn't there on a social outing, and the salesperson isn't my friend. This is a business transaction

I understand that the salesperson wasn't a social friend, but it doesn't hurt to be FRIENDLY in business transactions. Would you treat a server in a restaurant, or a clerk in a grocery store, or a salesperson at Neiman-Marcus, or a real estate agent that way? A lot of car salespeople are quite personable and enjoyable to talk to. Some of them even like cars, though fewer than I might have guessed. You would think the car magazines would be required reading for a car salesman, but, not in my experience.

I was asking a simple question, "how much does the car cost"

As you're undoubtedly aware, there isn't a single answer to that question. If your question was, "What would you LIKE to sell the car for?" they might have had an answer, though it'd likely be higher than you want to pay. If the question is, "What is the absolute lowest price that you'll let this fine automobile out the door for?" you're living in a parallel universe if you think you'll get an honest answer. I took a course in Negotiations years ago, and in almost all negotiations, the parties have assymetric information, and they want to share as little as possible. Another principal of negotiations is the tendency of parties to "split the difference", so they, reasonably, want to leave themselves some room. You're NEVER going to know, even after you complete the deal, what their absolute bottom line was.

Also, the convention is that the buyer makes the first offer. You could have done so, without taking up much more time. I might have said something like, "I'm a little pressed for time (my son has a birthday party, or we've got to meet DW for lunch or dinner, or whatever). I noticed these Montegos sitting here. They're now two model years old, and, judging by the number I see on the road, I'm one of the few Montego aficionados. (I've been looking for a Montego ever since your first thread, and I've yet to see one - did see a new Sable, though) I was hoping to get a good deal. I've been looking at Edmund's (or talking to my car friends on TMF, or looking at my crystal ball) and if I could get out the door for $18.5K (or $19K or whatever), I'd be VERY happy.

At that point, you're likely to get significantly more information. If they take the offer, great, you got a new car for what you wanted to pay. If they come back with, "We'd be willing to discount it $4000 from sticker," you know that there's probably not a middle ground where you're can meet. If they come back with a counter-offer $500-2000 higher, you know that you can probably split the difference, and either negotiate then and there, or thank them and leave, anticipating that they'll call you soon.

The other point is that they don't know, two minutes into the deal, whether they're in ONE negotiation (for the new car price), or as is more commonly the case, THREE negotiations (new car price, trade-in price and the loan price). Unless you're not planning to trade or finance through them, getting a price on the new car is only a component of getting an overall agreement that you can sign. Buying a car is the second biggest purchase most of us make, and the car buying process is a model of transparency compared to buying a house. I don't think a couple hours on a purchase this big is an undue hardship.

martybl

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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55688 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 7:36 AM
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I don't want to waste time over-analyzing the psychological profile of a car salesman, I just want to buy a car, dang it.



In other words, the salesman should understand exactly where you're coming from as you're walking in off the street, regardless of the fact that you're different from most customers. Not only that, but you should not have to give a second's consideration to how different your expectations are from what the salesman expects. Even if you are a total oddball to the salesman, the salesman should bow down at your feet instead of moving on to the next customer.

Now call me crazy, but I think the dealer types here are giving you good information even if you don't want to hear it. It seems to me that while the "two minute drill" would be a nice way to buy a car, if dealers aren't used to this buyer's tactic then you shouldn't be surprised when it catches them flat-footed.

If every buyer started demanding a price in two minutes, then you better believe dealers would learn how to give buyers what they want. But until then, be thankful that understand the dealer's POV a little better, no matter how violently distasteful you might find it.

BK

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55689 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 7:47 AM
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I don't want to waste time over-analyzing the psychological profile of a car salesman, I just want to buy a car, dang it.

Here's what I usually do when I'm buying a car :

Narrow down the choices, go test drive the models but do it during the week when I know business is slower and tell the sales person that I am test driving to compare models and won't be buying that day, decide on a model, research the prices, clear the money and call to make an appointment to buy a car.

I wish I could find the post but I tried and I can't. Years ago, someone here pointed out that it's much easier if you don't go into the process assuming you're conquering an adversary and I took that advice and found it to be spot on.

The salespeople who have lost me are the old school men who have an unsaid "little lady" at the end of their sentences and the ones who ask where my husband is. I answer the husband one with "I buy the cars and he drives what I assign him." If they can't deal with that, we're not doing business. If I don't feel comfortable with a sales person, there are plenty of them out there to work with.

rad

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55690 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 7:49 AM
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"Buying a car is the second biggest purchase most of us make, and the car buying process is a model of transparency compared to buying a house. I don't think a couple hours on a purchase this big is an undue hardship."

Thanks Marty - you make very many good points. I appreciate yours, and the insight of all who contributed to this discussion. I guess my view is I don't want to be hugged, kissed, schmoozed ar anything else during this kind of deal. I just want to cut through the smoke and mirrors and get to the bottom line. But, I understand that people like me are very much an exception in this world, and because of that, I don't always get the deal I want.

I accept that though. If the Montego deal doesn't come to pass, I'm driving my '01 CR-V that is paid off, and will easily last another 10 years if I treat it right. Buying any car right now is a want and not a need, which allows me to walk away if i don't get exactly the terms I want. Thanks again.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55691 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 7:58 AM
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"The salespeople who have lost me are the old school men who have an unsaid "little lady" at the end of their sentences and the ones who ask where my husband is."

I have to tell you, that occurred during last Summer's car purchase. Bob the salesmanager, a grizzled old character, kept directing his answers to me, even when my wife asked, which really pissed her off. If it weren't for the fact that the car had 0%/60 month finance and $2500 cash back incentives, and, was not a high demand vehicle, we would have walked out in a heartbeat. We were willing to put up with that because in the end, we got a great deal on a new car.

I couldn't help thinking though, as the guy talked us, how many other sales to women he lost, because of that attitude.

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55692 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 8:14 AM
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I'm not absolutely declaring all new car sales personnel are toads, but it doesn't help the image if they continue to enforce that image by the OP's experience at the very beginning of this now lengthy thread.

johnmoni's request was not reasonable. Even if JM would pull out $30k in cash and ask for them to name a price, there is no way all the paperwork could be completed in 2 minutes. The salesman evaluated the situation correctly - JM was not a serious buyer.

IF

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55693 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 8:23 AM
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"JM was not a serious buyer."

All I was asking for was the price - if it was right, we probably would have come back later and spent the 2+ hours (or whatever.) If it wasn't right, I didn't want to waste their time.

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Author: eudaimon6 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55694 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 8:57 AM
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JM,

Why do you play your game then?

If there is a figure where you are an owner, why don't you share that with the salesmanager?

Why don't you do what RAD does? She's bought a few cars, and seems to have consistently satisfactory experiences. Why don't you decide what you'll pay for the car, line up your money, and make a 10:00 am appointment with the salesmanager to have him look at your paid-for Honda. Tell him you're bringing in your title and you'd like an hour of his undivided attention to work out a deal.

Why don't you try that?

Why do you, instead, go in without your trade and without your wife, and say "I've got two minutes, give me a price?"

Who's the "game-player" here?

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55695 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:03 AM
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Buying a car is the second biggest purchase most of us make, and the car buying process is a model of transparency compared to buying a house. I don't think a couple hours on a purchase this big is an undue hardship.

Before I have this spiral out of control (if it hasn't already), I'd also like to clarify:

I have a problem with the process of buying a NEW car from a NEW car dealer. I DON'T have a problem with haggling with USED cars, if you can believe that.

A used car, like a house purchase (in which many houses being bought and sold are used) can be justified in having a variable price or needing negotiating or haggling. That again is because TWO seven-year-old white Honda CRV's with 50,000 miles and the four-cylinder and five-speed and A/C could still be different considering that they could have been treated and maintained differently and be in different condition. Same goes with buying identical houses if that were possible.

Identical new cars, though, between two dealers should be exactly the same, they should have arrived from the factory in nearly identical condition along with the other cars it came off the transport truck from. In my (warped as usual) mind, prices of identically new objects like new cars should be pretty close to exactly the same, save for a few dealer-specific costs such as utilities

So that's also why I identify the process of buying a new car should be nearly the same as buying a large appliance or another large consumer item. If I look up the information on an LG Tromm front-loading washer, a specific model number, and in WHITE, and compare between BestBuy, Lowes, Home Depot, and ABC Warehouse. They may vary in price, but I should still be theoretically be buying the exact same washer. I will probably buy it from the lowest price of the four unless they happen to toss in some additional benefit, such as free delivery, free installation, a discount on the extended warranty, or something simple. But at least I know fully well going in what they expect to sell the item for right away and it cuts down on the shenanigans. But I'm dealing with a product that should be in the exact same condition at one retailer as it is with several hundred other retailers.

As for the house comparison, I've bought seven houses and sold six and have NEVER had nearly the trouble compared to buying new cars. In fact, I even usually use the SAME realtor selling as I did to buy the house.


Duck

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55696 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:06 AM
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If it weren't for the fact that the car had 0%/60 month finance and $2500 cash back incentives, and, was not a high demand vehicle, we would have walked out in a heartbeat. We were willing to put up with that because in the end, we got a great deal on a new car.

I am not. There's very little in the world that I can't find somewhere else, including a great deal on a car I want. I have little doubt that you were, in fact, the car buyer since you were there. By buying from that salesperson, you agreed to let your wife be disrespected for a price.

rad

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55697 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:08 AM
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"Who's the "game-player" here?"

In any other retail situation, I can go in and see the sales price of an item and decide whether I want to pay it - on the spot. Why is it in a auto purchase, the customer must do a ritual mating dance to get to the bottom line price? If I am playing a game, they are equally doing so.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55698 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:11 AM
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"By buying from that salesperson, you agreed to let your wife be disrespected for a price."

We both accepted the car's price given the situation. The dealer was close to home, and we were thinking of ease with regards to service and potential warranty issues (if any.)

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55699 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:22 AM
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johnmoni's request was not reasonable. Even if JM would pull out $30k in cash and ask for them to name a price, there is no way all the paperwork could be completed in 2 minutes. The salesman evaluated the situation correctly - JM was not a serious buyer.

As you will probably have seen johnmoni's response, it's not that he wanted the WHOLE process to take 2 minutes. We both agree that it will take time to collect the paperwork, get whatever state-required information is needed to have recorded on the title and registration papers (depending on state), time spent to verify information with lenders (if you finance or lease), and time spent having the F&I weasel try to sell paint protection. (Just kidding about that last part.)

We just don't think it should take anywhere over an hour just to get the FIRST part of the whole transaction, the "what is that car's price?" part. The fastest I've been in and out of Saturn dealers was 90 minutes, mostly due to GMAC paperwork.


Duck

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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55700 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:37 AM
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In any other retail situation, I can go in and see the sales price of an item and decide whether I want to pay it - on the spot. Why is it in a auto purchase, the customer must do a ritual mating dance to get to the bottom line price? If I am playing a game, they are equally doing so.


No, you have a game you want to play and the dealer has a game they'd prefer to play. Until one agrees to play on the other's terms there is no game. So if the "two minute drill" isn't working for you, you might want to modify your rules just a smidge so that the dealer is willing to engage you on your terms.

BK

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55701 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:47 AM
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"No, you have a game you want to play and the dealer has a game they'd prefer to play."

Correct - but the allegation in an earlier post is that I was the one playing a game, when in fact both the dealer and customer are doing so.

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Author: BigKahoona Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55702 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 9:53 AM
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"No, you have a game you want to play and the dealer has a game they'd prefer to play."

Correct - but the allegation in an earlier post is that I was the one playing a game, when in fact both the dealer and customer are doing so.



No, trying to do so. Again, without multiple players there is no game. And just as you aren't being dishonest with your two minute drill, the dealer isn't being dishonest just because it isn't wired to give you a two minute price. Like I said before, if everyone came in wanting a two minute price, dealers would be prepared to give you a two minute price. But everyone doesn't and dealers aren't.

BK

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Author: GuildWarsQueen Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55703 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 10:18 AM
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We both accepted the car's price given the situation. The dealer was close to home, and we were thinking of ease with regards to service and potential warranty issues (if any.)

You can have a Ford serviced at any Ford dealership. You don't have to take a car back to the same dealer you purchased it from for service.

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Author: skybluewater Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55704 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 10:36 AM
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I couldn't help thinking though, as the guy talked us, how many other sales to women he lost, because of that attitude.

Too bad for your wife that you care so much about getting a good deal.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55705 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 10:56 AM
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"Too bad for your wife that you care so much about getting a good deal."

We both agreed; if you think I'm a militant bargain hunter, you haven't talked to her recently. We are both cut from the same LBYM cloth.

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55707 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 12:07 PM
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I've been lied to….

Duck, you really need to take a step back from all of this. You're in it waaay too deep.

You are coming into this process with your hair up, just certain that it's going to be a bad experience and even more certain that you are going to get taken advantage of. You're at the point where a salesman giving you a simple "Hello!" makes you think "I wonder what he means by that?" Nobody can win in this kind of a situation.

There are salesmen who lie. There are sales managers who lie, too. There are also salesmen who make mistakes. The poor kid is just trying to move bumpers and maybe he got confused and thought this one had floor mats and that one had the CD player. Maybe he was confused and thought you were pointing at the green one when you were pointing at the plaid one. In DuckWorld™ he's lying.

But it's okay in DuckWorld to lie to the salesman, I'm sure. He's scum, after all.

You say you don't like negotiating. I say: Don't negotiate any more. Just walk in with your check book open and say "I want the blue one and here's a check for $23,500" and see if they take it. If they do, then you are by definition happy. You've got the car you wanted at the price you wanted. If they don't take it, you're also happy. You still have the $23,500 and didn't have to degrade yourself and your ancestry by going through the whole 'can you throw in floor mats for that price?' ordeal.

Most people want to feel like they've made the dealership work for their business. Most people want to feel like they've ground-down the salesman and front-office management. Most people want to think the salesman and his boss are watching his taillights go down the road and thinking "Whew! Well, maybe we'll do better on the next one…". If you buy one of two identical vehicles for $19,500 and I offer the same salesman $19,500 for its twin, he'll still have to get the offer "approved" and we'll still have to do the dance or I'll spend the next four years thinking I got took. The worst thing that could happen would be for the salesman to jump up and shout "SOLD!" and offer out his hand with the pen in it. Anyone's reaction at that point would be "I should have offered sixteen!"

There are "atrocities" all over. You just don't buy houses or computers every day. How is it that Proctor and Gamble get to put a price on the side of a tube of toothpaste and we just go along with it like we thought it was our idea? How is that Levi can set the price for a pair of jeans? Oh, but that's only $1.79 and it's only $28 for the pants. We buy a whole lot more toothpaste and pants, though, than we do cars. We don't have pay Loan Origination Fees for our new Chevy Impala, thought a new Chevy Impala today goes for what a new home cost, twenty years ago—and we gladly paid loan origination fees and "points" and more to get our mortgages in the early 1980s.

Duck, you should buy the best off-lease used car you can find anywhere, with all of the options and colors and features that you can find, through a buyer's service of some kind, and the keep that sumbitch forever. If the light in the glovebox goes out get it replaced the next week so you always feel good about the car, and you never have to deal with the front of the house, again.

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Author: COJones100 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55709 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 12:35 PM
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I was just thinking of this from the other side….

If I'm standing in the showroom, waiting for my "up" and making a few Owner Retention phone calls and a few Conquest Sales phone calls and some guy comes up to me all full of bluff and bluster and says, like he's doing me some kind of favor, "I want your best price in two minutes or I'm outta here!" I'm almost certain to let him go.

I don't have anything invested in this guy.

If I have been working with a family who came in with their minivan and have showed them the service department and introduced them to the service writer and explained how we have doughnuts in the lounge if you get here early enough, and talked about how you fold down the rear seats and showed them how they don't have to change spark plugs as often and pointed out how to get driving directions out of the radio, I have a lot invested in these guys. Or since we're on the internet, I have alot invested in these guys. And I'm not as likely to let them walk. I'll work with them a whole lot more to try to salvage at least some deal, because they have taken up my whole morning. This other guy is just a fly buzzing around me and my lunch. I don't care about him. I don't have to. How am I any poorer if I blow him off than if I get him some kind of bogus number that makes him happy—but he still doesn't buy a car?

Hmmm….

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Author: Earble Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55710 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 12:46 PM
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How am I any poorer if I blow him off than if I get him some kind of bogus number that makes him happy—but he still doesn't buy a car?

You've lost two minutes. Seems like a small downside, and a great potential upside.

I emailed the three Subaru dealers in town, saying, essentially: "Here's the exact car I want. How much?" Dealer A blew me off by replying "less than MSRP." So neither of us had to spend any more time. No big loss on their part, or mine.

The other two quoted me a price. I bought from Dealer B. Dealer C didn't get the sale, but they didn't lose much time on me.

But Dealer B answered my direct question with a direct answer, and got the sale.

Earble

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Author: wecoguy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55714 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 1:24 PM
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Hey, the sales guys are lonely, therefore think we need to have a "relationship" to do business. Sure, that's it, what have we been missing? -o-

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Author: wecoguy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55715 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 1:48 PM
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As for the house comparison, I've bought seven houses and sold six and have NEVER had nearly the trouble compared to buying new cars. In fact, I even usually use the SAME realtor selling as I did to buy the house.

Therein lies the difference. The RE industry, at least out here, is regulated, it has a licensing program, realtors have a fixed location, attached to a storefront, so at least for the duration, if you go back, you will see the same agent. They are traceable. They have a reputation to protect. yes there are bad ones, but not of the same order as it appears there are in auto sales. Agents pay their dues and are liable. Today more liable for their errors than ever before. It may be time to apply similar regulations to the auto industry... Relying on a hungry salesman for honesty, when there is no penalty for dishonesty is not a good plan...

weco

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Author: reallyalldone Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55716 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 2:05 PM
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As for the house comparison, I've bought seven houses and sold six and have NEVER had nearly the trouble compared to buying new cars.

How many parts was that series about one of these houses ?


rad

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Author: lilacinn Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55717 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 2:20 PM
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Something tells me the "touchy feely" facets of the transaction seldom result in a lower cost to the purchaser. can you give us a ratio of time spent w/buyer:amount of your commmission?

A vehicle is a commodity these days, not the live event/milestone it was in the mid-20th century. I couldn't care less about getting to know the salesman, getting an intro to the (high-priced) service manager -- i have a 20-year relationship with a trustworthy mechanic elsewhere for non-warranty work.

the 'touchy feely' stuff also always seems to turn into upsell -- warranties, anti-rust packages, and the like. most of us have better things to do than listen to those spiels.

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55718 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 2:26 PM
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How many parts was that series about one of these houses ?

I'm talking about buying, pre-closing stage, regarding house buying. The Adventures of Fred the Illegal Builder is an entirely different thing. We bought it from him as a pre-foreclosure.


Duck

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Author: Primm69 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55720 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 7:05 PM
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As for the house comparison, I've bought seven houses and sold six and have NEVER had nearly the trouble compared to buying new cars.

So how is Fred The Builder these days, Duck?

Primm
*curious*

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Author: DuckyDuck Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55722 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/20/2007 10:47 PM
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So how is Fred The Builder these days, Duck?

Whereabouts unknown at this time. Last known activity was that he was required to pay restitution to my neighbors for $15,000 in a criminal case. Fred had the balls to go up to the judge and say, "Whaddya say I pay them $500 and let's call it even?".

The judge chewed him up and down and threatened to toss back in the county jail if he didn't come up with the $15,000 before the end of the week.

One day before the "deadline", Fred came up with the $15,000 somehow and paid the restitution. Don't know if he robbed a bank or his own relatives to do it...



Duck

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Author: Wheee Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55723 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/21/2007 12:20 AM
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"If it weren't for the fact that the car had 0%/60 month finance and $2500 cash back incentives, and, was not a high demand vehicle, we would have walked out in a heartbeat. We were willing to put up with that because in the end, we got a great deal on a new car."

Easy to do with hindsight, but if that happens again I'd take the simple approach. Ask to speak to the sales manager and ask for a different sales rep. The sales manager won't have a problem doing that. He (or she) just wants to sell the car, any rep that makes you happy makes him happy.

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55724 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/21/2007 7:53 AM
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"Easy to do with hindsight, but if that happens again I'd take the simple approach. Ask to speak to the sales manager and ask for a different sales rep. The sales manager won't have a problem doing that. He (or she) just wants to sell the car, any rep that makes you happy makes him happy."

Just to clarify, it wasn't the salesman (though while his performance was lackluster at best, he was not offensive) it was the sales manager. The thing the amused me the most was his the "jeckle and hyde" personality. During one visit, he was literally yelling at us as we left, and telling us to go pick up the car ourselves at the other dealer, to the next time he was so nice and complimenting us on how cute our children were. I thought I was dealing with Sybil of multiple personalities! How to win friends, influence people and sell cars! Unbelieveable!

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55727 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/21/2007 10:54 AM
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<<The thing the amused me the most was his the "jeckle and hyde" personality. During one visit, he was literally yelling at us as we left, and telling us to go pick up the car ourselves at the other dealer, to the next time he was so nice and complimenting us on how cute our children were. I thought I was dealing with Sybil of multiple personalities! How to win friends, influence people and sell cars! Unbelieveable!

>>


My experience is that people who are highly skilled in dealing with people have a range of personality typoes they can trot out to deal with varying situations. On some occasions, it's appropriate to be the nice guy --- in others, the tough and flinty negotiator and so on.


But in addition to that flexibility, they have to choose the right personality for the situation, which seems to be the problem the sales manager had.

And being too obvious about such changes in persona puts people off, since they can't trust a person who changes like that, if they see it happening.

The really good salesman can be sensitive to all those concerns, and choose wisely how to deal with a person so as not to offend them.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: angelwithwings Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55759 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 12:47 PM
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JM is right. The sales folks should know the price. With the last two purchases I made; I did my research up front and came in knowing what I believed was a fair price for the vehicle as I wanted it equipped. I gave them 5 minutes. The first time this happened, one salesperson balked and the second one got the sale. The second time, less than 3 months later, there were no issues at all. JM is doing it right. These dealerships need to respect your time, and not the other way around.

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Author: Hallucigenia Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55761 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 12:53 PM
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I emailed the three Subaru dealers in town, saying, essentially: "Here's the exact car I want. How much?" Dealer A blew me off by replying "less than MSRP." So neither of us had to spend any more time. No big loss on their part, or mine.

The other two quoted me a price. I bought from Dealer B. Dealer C didn't get the sale, but they didn't lose much time on me.

But Dealer B answered my direct question with a direct answer, and got the sale.


In the UK, you don't even have to do the emails - Subaru have a centralised database of all second-hand cars at their dealers, to which the dealers unofficially add unregistered cars. So you should be able to find what you want at http://www.subaru.co.uk/Subaru_co_uk/ViewMenu.qed?menuid=M2M1 (use LS1 1AA as a random postcode) - and you find the dealers who've got the best deals out of Subaru.

My local guy was quite happy to admit that he couldn't match the prices of some of the dealers who can get bulk deals out of Subaru, and was happy for me to go elsewhere as there's so little money in new cars these days (servicing is a different matter...). So I found two places that were offering ~$10k under list on exactly the car I wanted from the website, got another ~$1k out of one of them in the flesh to take the deal to within spitting distance of what I'd have paid for a Cyprus import and did the deal. Only catch was the 150 miles to pick it up, but a) that's no real hardship in a Scoob and b) it meant it was 150 miles closer to being run in and I could start having some real fun :-))

Can only envy some of your prices - what with 17.5% sales tax and everything in the UK, you'd be pushed to put a 2.5 Outback on the road for less than US$45k new

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55762 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 12:55 PM
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"These dealerships need to respect your time, and not the other way around."

The thing that puzzles me is that it would make sense that the less time they spend with each customer, the more cars they could sell. It often seems however, that dealers/salespeople want to make the process longer. That seems counterintuitive, but the whole industry runs that way. Probably why they're going down the tubes and can't compete any more.

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55764 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 1:01 PM
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That seems counterintuitive, but the whole industry runs that way. Probably why they're going down the tubes and can't compete any more.

I don't see dealer going down the tubes.

IF

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55766 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 1:24 PM
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"I don't see dealer going down the tubes."

Maybe individual dealers here and there are bright spots, but somebody in the industry isn't doing all that great:

"Industrywide U.S. auto sales in August could be off 10 percent from a year ago, according to an early read from sales tracker Edmunds.com. That follows July sales that were 19 percent below year-earlier levels."

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/21/news/companies/autosales_mortgage/index.htm?postversion=2007082115

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55767 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 1:28 PM
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"Industrywide U.S. auto sales in August could be off 10 percent from a year ago, according to an early read from sales tracker Edmunds.com. That follows July sales that were 19 percent below year-earlier levels."

And somehow you think the reason is because they can't give you a 2 minute price. *Snort*

IF

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55768 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 1:52 PM
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"And somehow you think the reason is because they can't give you a 2 minute price. *Snort*"

If they gave me a price, may have had a sale by now. They chose not, and hence no sale. Its all about choice.

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Author: Snowytenn2 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55770 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 2:21 PM
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It often seems however, that dealers/salespeople want to make the process longer. That seems counterintuitive, but the whole industry runs that way. Probably why they're going down the tubes and can't compete any more.


I agree with the sentiment, but if the whole industry is going down the tubes and can't compete, how do we buy cars ????..... I'm not trying to be smart, just trying to understand what will evolve to take the place of dealers/salespeople. You would think it would be the "no haggle" model of Saturn, Scion, Carmax and others, but honestly, I don't see that growing to the point of seriously threatening the established dealers and their current practices.

One of my favorite dealers was a Ford dealership in Tennessee that offered any new car, either on the lot or you could order anything you wanted, for $100.00 over invoice. I bought one car and there and they really did sell everything at $100 over invoice; and it was a nice place to do business, no pressure and no haggling. They didn't even push you for financing or or other extras. But they weren't the most popular Ford dealer in town for some reason, maybe people just didn't believe the $100 over invoice was for real, or they just had some innate need to bargain and negotiate. Eventually a traditional dealership bought them out and they went back to the old way of selling.

Notwithstanding that everybody dislikes the current arrangement, it's hard to see what, if anything, is going to replace it.

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Author: martybl Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55779 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/23/2007 11:11 PM
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Notwithstanding that everybody dislikes the current arrangement, it's hard to see what, if anything, is going to replace it.

I think, as you yourself indicate, that not EVERYBODY dislikes the current arrangement. I don't have any problems with the system the way it is.

I think in most transactions that involve mid-five figure sums, there's some flexibility in price and some room for negotiation. In the art world, or the jewelry world, or the home improvement market, there isn't a single flat, fixed price, and generally the folks selling these things expect some discussion of the item and negotiations.

I'm not somebody who gets a big charge out of bargaining. I'm not willing to play off multiple dealers against the other to squeeze the last $100 in price out.

If I could choose, I'd prefer a system with flat prices, but it's not a big enough preference that I'd choose a car that I otherwise wouldn't buy (Saturn) to get that system. I wouldn't even drive across town to get to a flat-price dealership, nor does it sound like folks in the Volunteer State were willing to, either. If I became dictator, changing the system of car sales wouldn't be on the list of my first ten, nor even my first hundred edicts.

martybl

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Author: dove29 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55780 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/24/2007 12:10 AM
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Duck, I agree with you! It would make perfect sense to me if it were possible to go up to the guy and ask "How much is that blue Mercury over there?" and get a straight answer.

Stuff like this has a lot to do with why I'm driving a 12 year old car. I still like the car a lot, but I'm so annoyed with the whole shell game involved in buying it that unless things change, I intend to keep this one as long as possible, maybe until it has to be towed to the junkyard.

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Author: draknor One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55813 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/27/2007 1:00 PM
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In any other retail situation, I can go in and see the sales price of an item and decide whether I want to pay it - on the spot. Why is it in a auto purchase, the customer must do a ritual mating dance to get to the bottom line price? If I am playing a game, they are equally doing so.

You can do that. It's called "sticker price". You can walk up to a car on the lot, look at the sticker price and what incentives the dealer has running, take out your checkbook & write out a check for $Sticker - $Incentives. You already do that at every other retail store -- why not do it for cars? Do you think Home Depot or Best Buy offers you their absolute lowest price on that microwave or washing machine? Why do you accept 40%+ retail mark-up on a microwave or washing machine, but not the 10% mark-up on cars?

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55824 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/28/2007 7:46 AM
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"Why do you accept 40%+ retail mark-up on a microwave or washing machine, but not the 10% mark-up on cars?"

The actual dollar "markup" on a $400 washer is far less than that on a $25,000+ car. I don't accept the markup on a car, becuse I don't want to pay it. For the last several new cars we bought, we targeted year end deals, on cars that the manufacturers wanted to clear out with incentives. Hence, we were able to aggressively negotiate excellent prices. On the other hand, I'd never even consider buying a high demand new car like the Mustang, because I know I can't negotiate the "best" deal on my terms.

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Author: IndecisiveFool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55825 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/28/2007 8:49 AM
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The actual dollar "markup" on a $400 washer is far less than that on a $25,000+ car.

When comparing items, you use percent markup rather than actual dollar markup.

IF

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55826 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/28/2007 10:06 AM
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"When comparing items, you use percent markup rather than actual dollar markup."

Thank you Professor IF

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55845 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/29/2007 6:03 PM
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<<"These dealerships need to respect your time, and not the other way around.">>

The thing that puzzles me is that it would make sense that the less time they spend with each customer, the more cars they could sell. It often seems however, that dealers/salespeople want to make the process longer. That seems counterintuitive, but the whole industry runs that way. Probably why they're going down the tubes and can't compete any more.


When I have my car in for service and am waiting for it to be done, I always make a point to go into the showroom to look around. Sometimes I wait for a few hours, so I can observe a lot of what is going on there. I've also been doing this for more than 25 years, so that's a lot of observation. It seems to me that most of the time (something like >95% of the time), the salespeople have nothing to do, nothing at all. So, maybe when a customer comes along, they want to spend a lot of time with them (perhaps in the guise of "good service", or perhaps they are just desperate to have some new person to talk to :-).

They always walk up to me and ask what I am interested in, and I always politely reply that I am just waiting for my car that is in service and am looking around. Then they leave me alone. Hmm, next time I'll check if they have an open WiFi for me to use!

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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 55868 of 71408
Subject: Re: Buying the Montego - Getting Started Date: 8/30/2007 3:00 PM
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"the salespeople have nothing to do, nothing at all."

I have noticed that as well.

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