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Author: TMFCheeze Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1951130  
Subject: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 3:34 PM
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I do hope that the current scandals regarding the Iraqi prisoner abuse are not lost on those who are supporters of the Patriot Act.

President Bush wants the power to declare any individual, whether an American citizen or not, an enemy combatant, at Bush's own discretion, and he wants to be able to hold that person for an indefinite period of time, with no charges brought, with no access to a lawyer, and with no recourse to any court, military or civilian. And their argument in favor of that is, "You can trust us not to abuse those extraordinary powers."

Well, obviously, you can't be trusted. If this isn't a textbook case for placing constitutional limits on executive power, I don't know what is.

People, be conservative if you want to. Vote Republican if you want to. But I do hope that any tendency you have for putting blind trust in the Bush Administration, or any administration, is diminished by the lessons of these events. If not, I think you've really got to question your own ability to learn from evidence presented.

Cheeze
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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495423 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 3:37 PM
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I'm hoping the Supreme Court Justices will read the Taquba report.

The Bushie case for giving Bush the power to hold American citizens without charges for as long as he sees fit is very simple:

Trust Us.

I believe that SCOTUS will be smart enough to see the downside of that.

Peter



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Author: JustWhoIAm Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495432 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 3:41 PM
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I'm hoping the Supreme Court Justices will read the Taquba report.

The Bushie case for giving Bush the power to hold American citizens without charges for as long as he sees fit is very simple:

Trust Us.

I believe that SCOTUS will be smart enough to see the downside of that.


Remember this is the same SCOTUS that finds it acceptable to limit political speech just prior to elections. Yet, you believe that will be smart enough to see the downside.

JWIA

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Author: Dopeman1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495435 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 3:42 PM
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I do hope that the current scandals regarding the Iraqi prisoner abuse are not lost on those who are supporters of the Patriot Act.

The two have nothing to do with one another, but you knew that already.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495440 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 3:49 PM
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Cheeze: I do hope that the current scandals regarding the Iraqi prisoner abuse are not lost on those who are supporters of the Patriot Act.

Dm: The two have nothing to do with one another, but you knew that already.

Nothing other than abuse of power and the corruptibility of humans who are given unwarranted power.

The founding fathers understood perfectly that we are all fallible and will betray the public trust in the pursuit of our dreams of a better world (and also greed). They knew that the future of the Republic depended on public scrutiny and balancing one source of power against another.

The Patriot Act is all about giving power to the Executive Branch and eliminating the possibility of review.

Peter



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Author: Dopeman1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495443 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 3:55 PM
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Nothing other than abuse of power and the corruptibility of humans who are given unwarranted power.

The founding fathers understood perfectly that we are all fallible and will betray the public trust in the pursuit of our dreams of a better world (and also greed). They knew that the future of the Republic depended on public scrutiny and balancing one source of power against another.

The Patriot Act is all about giving power to the Executive Branch and eliminating the possibility of review


I meant, that it isn't a left vs. right issue, which you've summed up above. Thanks for reinforcing my point :)

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Author: MSHH Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495445 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 3:57 PM
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One can only hope, as was once said, the Supreme Court reads the papers.

Captain Yee completely falsely accused and a long and growing list of similar cases that I won't list. At least Captain Yee had a chance to go before a court and have his guilt or innocence judged. Unlike Padilla and Hamdi. And Mahar Arar, who was sent off to Syria for a ten month stay in their justice system, courtesy of the Bush administration. And who is now suing that administration along with the Canadians who were probably up to their necks in it too. Etc.


"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
-- Plato (427?-347? BC), Greek philosopher, follower of Socrates, "The Republic"

I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon constitutions, upon laws and upon courts. These are false hopes; believe me, these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it..."
-- Learned Hand

Right now I would settle for a decision from the Supreme Sourt that trims the powers Bush&Co. claim to have with regard to extinguishing the civil liberties of Americans. Especially now that we all--including the Supreme Court--have seen how this bunch deals with bad news and the truth.


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Author: benhancockjr Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495456 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 4:05 PM
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The Patriot Act is all about giving power to the Executive Branch and eliminating the possibility of review.

Really? What about the fact an FBI agent has to apply to the court for a roving wiretap. Before the patriot act, an FBI agent could apply for a roving wiretap if a drug dealer switched cell phones. Why not the same tools for a suspected terrorist?

What about the court authorization for the "sneak and peak" warrants that allow agents to enter premises, examine what's there, and leave. The Patriot Act allows agents to delay disclosure of their presence to the person who controls the premises, but again with a court order.

Sounds like more than just the Executive Branch to me.

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Author: JoelCairo Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495460 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 4:08 PM
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Sounds like more than just the Executive Branch to me.

The FBI is part of the Executive Branch. Or am I missing your point?

Joel



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Author: benhancockjr Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495464 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 4:10 PM
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uhhh...the court order part

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Author: MrCynic Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495474 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 4:22 PM
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I do hope that the current scandals regarding the Iraqi prisoner abuse are not lost on those who are supporters of the Patriot Act.

We are just now finishing the process of going through hearings on 9-11 and one of the major themes that came out of those hearings was the role played by the lack of communication between law enforcement and intelligence agencies and limitations on sharing of information and performing investigations.

Addressing those problems is what the Patriot Act is about.

You might try reading it.

We need these provisions to protect ourselves. The constitution and laws of this country should not be a suicide pact.






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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495645 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/10/2004 8:38 PM
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MrCynic says

We are just now finishing the process of going through hearings on 9-11 and one of the major themes that came out of those hearings was the role played by the lack of communication between law enforcement and intelligence agencies and limitations on sharing of information and performing investigations.

Addressing those problems is what the Patriot Act is about.

You might try reading it.

I have read it, thus I know that it is about far more than that. And I am pretty sure you do too.

We need these provisions to protect ourselves.

Those provisions could protect us just as well if they were more limited and not accompanied by a ton of other stuff that strips away privacy rights and due process of law.

The constitution and laws of this country should not be a suicide pact.

Nor should our foreign and defense policies.

crassfool

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Author: readyteddy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495942 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/11/2004 9:33 AM
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Nice Post, Cheeze...

Just remember. We know who you are and we know where you live.

Warm Regards,

John Ashcroft

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Author: am4u Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 495958 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/11/2004 9:55 AM
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This should have applied to "Broadway Bill" Clinton and his beautiful
bride as well old buddy.

am4u

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Author: pmmcateer One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 496048 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/11/2004 12:13 PM
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People, be conservative if you want to. Vote Republican if you want to. But I do hope that any tendency you have for putting blind trust in the Bush Administration, or any administration, is diminished by the lessons of these events. If not, I think you've really got to question your own ability to learn from evidence presented.

I don't see how anyone can fault the Bush administration for the actions of a few idiots that took matters into their own hands in Abu whatever prison. Like you said, we put blind trust into whomever we elect, but I don't see the administration at any fault in this case.

President Bush wants the power to declare any individual, whether an American citizen or not, an enemy combatant, at Bush's own discretion, and he wants to be able to hold that person for an indefinite period of time, with no charges brought, with no access to a lawyer, and with no recourse to any court, military or civilian. And their argument in favor of that is, "You can trust us not to abuse those extraordinary powers."

Again, not sure if that is what Bush wants. All POW's are protected under the Geneva conventions, those are the documents saying you can trust us not to abuse our powers, or your POW's. Of course, some countries choose to abuse those rights, ie vietnam, however we still have to abide by them...and thats why these select "soldiers" will be court-martialed and more than likely do some time in jail. The thing that scares me is imagine we still have POW's(which we probably do, I'm not sure), what do you think will happen to them when they see we are abusing our prisoners? Those few "soldiers" did alot more than have some fun with their prisoners...they jeopordized their own brothers lives in the process. As someone in the military, I'm ashamed by the actions of these imbusiles, but no way is Bush trying to inflict this power as you describe.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 496226 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/11/2004 3:31 PM
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TMFCheeze writes,

I do hope that the current scandals regarding the Iraqi prisoner abuse are not lost on those who are supporters of the Patriot Act.


Of course it is.

Rush Limbaugh has already informed us that the Iraqi prisoner abuse is no worse than what a young Dumbya endured as a pledge at Yale's Skull & Bones fraternity.

intercst

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Author: doubtit Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 496231 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/11/2004 3:39 PM
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Author: TMFCheeze | Date: 5/10/04 3:34 PM | Number: 495417
I do hope that the current scandals regarding the Iraqi prisoner abuse are not lost on those who are supporters of the Patriot Act.

President Bush wants the power to declare any individual, whether an American citizen or not, an enemy combatant, at Bush's own discretion, and he wants to be able to hold that person for an indefinite period of time, with no charges brought, with no access to a lawyer, and with no recourse to any court, military or civilian. And their argument in favor of that is, "You can trust us not to abuse those extraordinary powers."

Well, obviously, you can't be trusted. If this isn't a textbook case for placing constitutional limits on executive power, I don't know what is.


Cheese you have a long term memory problem? This case would not be in my textbook. These abuses are petty when compared to Kerry's Viet Nam abuse claims.

9/11 would be in my textbook. Any abuses of the Patriot Act will be plastered ALL OVER the evening news. I think the media will keep abuses in balance with the risks we face from terrorists. I think MOST Americans are OK with a few abuses if thousands of lives might be saved.





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Author: jiml8 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 496929 of 1951130
Subject: Re: By The Way Date: 5/12/2004 1:31 PM
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Cheeze, I frequently don't agree with you, but this time I do. With one exception. You wrote:

And their argument in favor of that is, "You can trust us not to abuse those extraordinary powers."

That statement needs considerable qualification. It could be that the Bush Administration could be trusted with those extraordinary powers. Please note I am not saying that they are to be trusted, I am merely saying that perhaps they could be trusted.

But what about their underlings, who suddenly have all this capability? The Administration wouldn't have to sanction an abuse, or even know about it, for an abuse to occur.

Also, of course, even presuming that the current Administration is trustworthy, what about the next Administration? And the next Administration? And the one after that?

If the power is available, it will be abused. Even if the top leadership is composed of saints who would never abuse a trust, many below them who have the power will wield it for selfish aims. And, of course, what administration - ever - is composed of saints?

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