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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 35361  
Subject: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/4/2006 11:42 PM
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Well checking right now, 6-month treasuries last traded at an APR of 5.10%. According to my handy-dandy little spreadsheet, that's an tax-equivalent APY of 5.45% in my neck of the woods.

But there are some 6 month bank CDs at 5.45-5.6%.

FYI, this is for my eFund, so I have no issue to debate of long versus short duration - 6 months is my max.

Also, lets just say I'm no fan of our federal government right now, nor of our huge debts, but I'm not going to spite my own wallet because of it. But if there are better yields elsewhere, I have a hard time justifying lending it to the federal government.


The question is though, as I look over these lists of higher yields, is does anyone know of any online banks that offer easy money transfer to open a CD - aka: ACH? Most I've looked into require wire transfers, which have a nice healthy fee attached usually.

Looks like the higher yielding ones are the usual suspects - Millenium, Umbrella, VirtualBank, GiantBank, Corus, etc, and eTrade down at 5.46%.

Bankrate:
http://bankrate.com/brm/rate/high_ratehome.asp?web=brm&prodtype=invest&product=14&sort=2

Bestcashcow:
http://bestcashcow.com/cd_rates.html

Bankbestrate:
http://bankbestrates.com/getrates/bank/bank/certificate_of_deposit/6month_rates.php


Do any of these accept ACH transfer to open a CD? And do any of them not lose you several days interest?


Thanks for any thoughts,

Fred
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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18128 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 12:20 AM
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Okay, so with a little more research I may have answered my question.

I think that CitiBank (5.50%), Amtrust Direct (5.50%), and ETrade (5.46%) seem to offer DirectDeposit to open a CD.

The 5.5% ones seem like even if I lose a day or so I'd still be okay and competitive with treasuries. The big question is what they do upon maturity. I'll be making some calls tomorrow.

If anyone has any experiences with those 3, lemme know :)

Goodnight :)


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Author: folgore Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18129 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 2:08 AM
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In a previous post, I mentioned two banks that always seemed to have the highest long-term CD rates:

(1) AmTrust
http://www.amtrustdirect.com/?wt.mc_id=bankrate6mo

(2) Intervest National Bank
http://www.intervestnatbank.com/currentrates.htm

While Intervest always had slightly higher rates (usually + 0.1% over AmTrust), you would have to fax your application to them and do a wire transfer. AmTrust, on the other hand, does offer the electronic transfer option!


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Author: Frankenfish Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18130 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 8:14 AM
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The big question is what they do upon maturity.
This is the main reason I've never used eTrade for CDs.

A few years ago I investigated how it worked and found their process was extremely unwieldy. I wanted no parts of it. It should be better now, but good luck at getting the details online.

What I do know is that after maturity, there is a 7 day grace period, where you may elect to withdraw the money, add more to the account, or let it roll over. I couldnt tell if there was any notification as to when the maturity date was coming such as an email.

I use ING for my CDs. I found them easy to use and manage, and they have no minimums, but they've fallen a couple of points off the best rates, though still decent at 5.2% for 6-12 months. I may rethink eTrade since I have cash sitting around there -- I didnt realize their rates had grown so much -- or look into someone else with a good rate.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18132 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 9:48 AM
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(Fred:)6-month treasuries last traded at an APR of 5.10%. According to my handy-dandy little spreadsheet, that's an tax-equivalent APY of 5.45% in my neck of the woods.

But there are some 6 month bank CDs at 5.45-5.6%.


That's not enough of a yield difference to make me cross the street. I'd go with the Treasuries. Because, as you say:

FYI, this is for my eFund, so I have no issue to debate of long versus short duration - 6 months is my max.

So if liquidity is the main point, I'd go with the Treasuries; whether you like TreasuryDirect or a brokerage account is your call. You can sell any time you like, with no penalty for early withdrawal that you get in a CD.

Bill



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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18133 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 9:59 AM
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(1) AmTrust
http://www.amtrustdirect.com/?wt.mc_id=bankrate6mo


This is who I'm leaning to right now (main competitor being Citi).

Reasons are that they allow ACH transfer and their 6 month CD rate isn't out of line with the others (for instance, Citi's 6 month rate is basically 0.5% higher than their others, so Amtrust is more likely to have high renewal rates).

Finally, you have to mail a letter to confirm what you want done at maturity (if not renewal), but a phone rep told me that if you request the funds to be electronically deposited to an account you specify, they can do that upon maturity rather than mailing a check.

Does anyone have experience to confirm that this is true?

Thanks,

Fred


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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18134 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 10:07 AM
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So if liquidity is the main point, I'd go with the Treasuries; whether you like TreasuryDirect or a brokerage account is your call. You can sell any time you like, with no penalty for early withdrawal that you get in a CD.

Not true. There's a $45 charge for the use of SellDirect via TreasuryDirect. Thats almost all of what I'd make on a 6 month bond. CD penalty rates are actually less typically (they're a 2-3 months interest, and probably can't bring you below zero).

Besides, right now this is almost a fun little experiment. I have to see how easy or difficult it turns out to be. And I admit that I kind of was giving the federal government money resentfully in the first place, but I wasn't going to deny myself the rates. Darn you treasurydirect for being so easy and user friendly! ;)


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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18135 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 10:08 AM
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(they're a 2-3 months interest, and probably can't bring you below zero).

Um, by which I mean, bring you below your initial principal level, although I could be wrong. Penalties aren't my biggest issue anyway. The ladder should be sufficient, I have other funds, and I still leave a portion of my eFund in Emigrant/HSBC.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18136 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 10:23 AM
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(I thought:)So if liquidity is the main point, I'd go with the Treasuries; whether you like TreasuryDirect or a brokerage account is your call. You can sell any time you like, with no penalty for early withdrawal that you get in a CD.

(Fred:) Not true. There's a $45 charge for the use of SellDirect via TreasuryDirect.

_____________________________________
Ouch. I never used TreasuryDirect. Now I know why. That, and it's probably easier to stick with one of my regular brokerage accounts.

Bill

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18141 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 11:56 AM
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<<But there are some 6 month bank CDs at 5.45-5.6%.>>

That's not enough of a yield difference to make me cross the street. I'd go with the Treasuries.


How much yield do y'all "require" to move from treasuries to CDs?

In my case (no state income tax), the last 26-week treasury bill that I purchased was on 7/13/06 for a yield of 5.313%. Since then, I've been directing my 6-month purchases to CDs yielding 5.5%. I am not happy about it because of the hassle* I will have to deal with upon maturity, but still the extra 20-30bps is too tempting to leave on the table. I still buy 4-week treasuries regularly when appropriate.

* Hassle in this case, even though the CDs are issued by my bank, is having to track each one and give instructions upon maturity. Naturally, the default is automatic rollover at the prevailing rates. Since I purchased all these CDs online, I am hoping I can give the disposition instructions online as well. I will find out early next year when the first one matures.

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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18142 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 12:00 PM
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(Fred:) Not true. There's a $45 charge for the use of SellDirect via TreasuryDirect.
_____________________________________
Ouch. I never used TreasuryDirect. Now I know why. That, and it's probably easier to stick with one of my regular brokerage accounts.

Bill


How does the brokerage sell it for you? Like a bond with a spread? So you have no idea how good a deal you are getting? I like the transparency of TreasuryDirect.

However, I'm such a tightwad that I started buying them in my brokerage account to avoid the $100/year fee I'd have to pay at the Treasury. (That might be specific to Legacy TD)

Vickifool

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18145 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 12:26 PM
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<<<But there are some 6 month bank CDs at 5.45-5.6%.>>>

<<That's not enough of a yield difference to make me cross the street. I'd go with the Treasuries.>>

How much yield do y'all "require" to move from treasuries to CDs?

In my case (no state income tax), the last 26-week treasury bill that I purchased was on 7/13/06 for a yield of 5.313%. Since then, I've been directing my 6-month purchases to CDs yielding 5.5%. I am not happy about it because of the hassle* I will have to deal with upon maturity, but still the extra 20-30bps is too tempting to leave on the table. I still buy 4-week treasuries regularly when appropriate.

* Hassle in this case, even though the CDs are issued by my bank, is having to track each one and give instructions upon maturity. Naturally, the default is automatic rollover at the prevailing rates. Since I purchased all these CDs online, I am hoping I can give the disposition instructions online as well. I will find out early next year when the first one matures.


And the hassle doesn't end there. Since CDs can, and are, issued every day of the week, all these CDs mature on odd days that may or may not be convenient for rollover at the time. Treasury bills are much easier since they [generally] issue and mature on Thursdays. There is no way for me to time when my CDs are issued since it takes between 2 and 4 days for them to issue (and longer over holiday weekends like this one!).

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Author: whyohwhyoh Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18147 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 12:53 PM
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Do any of these accept ACH transfer to open a CD? And do any of them not lose you several days interest?


I just finished trying out ETrade 6 month CD. Here are the ACH transaction details.

2/6/06 Etrade purchased $1000 6mo CD at 4.6% APR.
2/7/06 $1000 debited at my BofA account
8/7/06 Withdrawl matured CD $1023.42 (8/6/06 was a Sunday, so ETrade actually gave me 1 extra day interest at the latest rate 5.4%? for Monday 8/7/6)
8/8/06 $1023.42 credited at my BofA account

So I gained a day of interest on the front end, and lost one on the far end, so I guess it worked out even.

My only problem with ETrade was that the values they showed during the 6 month period were off by 3-7%, and customer service has refused to tell me why. I have written a letter a few weeks ago, with no response.

Final values look accurate though.

T-Bills are still looking good for Californians tax=9.3% so=> 5.63%APY for 182 day T-Bill on 8/31/06.


--
whyohwhyoh

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Author: blearynet Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18148 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 1:29 PM
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Thank you, whyohwhy, for the info for Californians. I had come to the same conclusion, but am delighted to see someone else concur. Californians are better off with Tbills at the present time.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18149 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 2:05 PM
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(Vickifool:)How does the brokerage sell it for you?
Actually, it's usually a transaction where they buy/sell as principal.

Like a bond with a spread? So you have no idea how good a deal you are getting?

Correct. But that's not the point. In the case of the OP, who was thinking about an emergency fund, the question is whether or not you need the money. As for me, I'm not in the market to trade. Generally, I'll hold to maturity. But if I need the money sooner, I need the money sooner.

Bill

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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18154 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 3:22 PM
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Update on Amtrust:

Unfortunately, their return transfer must be a wire transfer, for which they charge a $15 fee (HSBC and Emigrant each claim to be 'no fee' accounts now, so I'm not sure if they charge for an incoming wire transfer, but that's irrelevant since Amtrust does).

The mail option drops several days interest or more.

The other option is to move it to another AmTrust account. And they have a MM earning 5.15%. But I really don't feel like opening yet another savings account (two is plenty).


Whyohwhyoh... I remember your questions about the CD numbers. So you can confirm that eTrade gives you an ACH, fee-free option to transfer back at maturity? May I ask the mechanics about how you go about selecting this? i.e. can you select on their website? Do you have to call? Do they 'verify' the account at all, or is it only the one that it was taken from initially?

Thanks,

Fred


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Author: whyohwhyoh Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18156 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 4:58 PM
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Whyohwhyoh... I remember your questions about the CD numbers. So you can confirm that eTrade gives you an ACH, fee-free option to transfer back at maturity? May I ask the mechanics about how you go about selecting this? i.e. can you select on their website? Do you have to call? Do they 'verify' the account at all, or is it only the one that it was taken from initially?


ETRADE allows ACH, fee-free, both in starting the CD and at maturity.

Problem is at maturity you must make a phone call to a human. Took about 10 minutes, and I did this about 2 weeks before maturity. Then at maturity I had the CD funds moved into an ETRADE account, which you can then go online and transfer the money to whatever account you have previously set-up. ETrade's marketing line is "QuickTransfer point, click, transfer!" (the exclamation point convinced me)

I think you can also have them send the CD funds directly to an external account, but since I was dealing with a human I wanted to keep things as simple as possible, with no hidden charges, so I had the human just order the money to be sent to my ETrade brokerage account (which I knew I could move money out of easily and quickly). My company uses ETrade for stock options and ESPP, so I already had an account setup with them and I move money regularly out of my brokerage account.

I almost forgot, my biggest issue with ETrade CD's. Once the CD matures your account info and history is gone. You cannot access it anymore. Here is ETrade's explanation from customer service after I complained my account was missing "As for the account missing, because the account is closed (cashed out) it is no longer accessible online. "

I don't know if this is normal or not, but since the whole transaction is online, no papaer statements, I would have hoped that online statements would be archived.

It is nowhere near as smooth as T-Bills, but if rates change enough I will probably research and try out another bank in parallel with ETrade.

--
whyohwhyoh





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Author: jrr7 Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18157 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 5:15 PM
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You can sell any time you like, with no penalty for early withdrawal that you get in a CD.

No penalty?

You pay a sales commission and a spread when you sell a Treasury. You may have capital gains or losses if interest rates moved and there's still a significant amount of time to maturity.

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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18159 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 5:34 PM
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I think you can also have them send the CD funds directly to an external account, but since I was dealing with a human I wanted to keep things as simple as possible, with no hidden charges, so I had the human just order the money to be sent to my ETrade brokerage account (which I knew I could move money out of easily and quickly).

Ah. No, according to them you can't go directly from eTrade to an external account. And I don't have an eTrade brokerage account.

Okay, so it seems like there is no bank that allows a direct ACH in and out. A few - Citi, AmTrust, eTrade, allow it in, but require a wire out, or to have a savings, etc account of theirs.

So I missed today's auction, but can always just do it next week instead, if the rate situation stays similar. My ladder will just have a little hiccup in it :). Seems the convenience of TreasuryDirect wins again.


I will keep an eye out for three things though:

1) Amtrust seems to be a new entry into the high yield game. If their Money Market stays competitive and so do their CD rates, it may be worth opening up a Money Market there to get easier access to their CDs.

2) Emigrant's CDs are sitting at 10 bps below my current treasury rates. If they become more competitive (either through their increase or other declines) it'll be worth considering. Ditto with HSBC who currently doesn't even really have CDs offered by their online 'Direct' entity at higher rates.

3) Maybe the occassional check to see if any banks have caught up with TreasuryDirect.


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Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18161 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/5/2006 8:24 PM
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In the case of the OP, who was thinking about an emergency fund, the question is whether or not you need the money. As for me, I'm not in the market to trade. Generally, I'll hold to maturity. But if I need the money sooner, I need the money sooner.

Bill


On needing the money sooner:
When buying CDs at a brokerage, there is no early-redemption provision. You have to sell them and see what you get.

I've figured out that bonds are easy to understand if I just hold to maturity.

Vickifool

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Author: Frankenfish Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18171 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/6/2006 12:17 PM
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Okay, so it seems like there is no bank that allows a direct ACH in and out. A few - Citi, AmTrust, eTrade, allow it in, but require a wire out, or to have a savings, etc account of theirs.

Take a look at ING.

You link to an external checking account, and can open an ING money market. You can fund the CD from either location. You can preset what you want to happen at maturity, either rollover, or deposit to either checking or the money market. You can also decide if you want the interest to be rolled over or paid out to one of the accounts.

Another plus is that there are no mimimums for CDs. I've generally bounced between $500 and $1000 but there's no reason not to do less if that's all you have.

I dont know what happens to the records if you close out a CD since I've been just rolling over for now.

ING is in the top 11 for rates and is real easy to use, which was important to me. I want to do banking online and to me that means all transactions must be manageable online. I dont want to call someone or worse, send them a letter via snail mail.

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Author: DeltaOne81 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18173 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/6/2006 1:13 PM
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You link to an external checking account, and can open an ING money market. You can fund the CD from either location. You can preset what you want to happen at maturity, either rollover, or deposit to either checking or the money market

As you say, this has a catch of needing an ING money market account. This is indentical with ETrade, Amtrust, Emigrant and most of them, except those have higher money market rates and CD rates than ING.

For instance, I have a 5.15% Money Market with Emigrant and they offer 5.35% CDs.

I don't see why I'd offer a 4.4% Money Market with ING just to get their 5% 6 month CD.


I'll see how good Amtrust is about staying in the game, and if they do I may open a MM account with them, to get access to their CDs (and probably leave around $100 in my HSBC account). For now, I'll stick with treasuries until they are either significant worse than some options, or at all less than Emigrant.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18177 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/6/2006 2:05 PM
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For now, I'll stick with treasuries until they are either significant worse than some options, or at all less than Emigrant.

With the results of the 28-day treasury bill today, I'll say that time has arrived :-)

But seriously, something looks out of whack this week. The institutions that loaned $12B for 8 days received 5.165%, while the institutions (and a few of us folk, a tiny minority) that loaned $12B for 28 days received 4.79%, a difference of more than 37 bps. Is that huge gap unprecendented? Last week, the 14-day and 28-day were only separated by a gap of about 7 bps.


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Author: jackcrow Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 18178 of 35361
Subject: Re: CDs > Treasuries Date: 9/6/2006 3:07 PM
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Mark,

The only thing I can say is that weird things happen.

jack

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