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Author: jasmada One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 19221  
Subject: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 2:14 PM
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There are three types of CFP's no one better than the other:

1. Fee only
2. Fee plus commission
3. Commission only

Sorry about the spelling and syntax it is just that when I see some of these outrageous statements by people boasting about how they do not need any type of protection from this risk and questioning everything then I get so fired up and type so fast I cannot control my emotions. If you felt the same way about what you do then it might look the same. Thanks for allowing me to be human. As far as products go, everything is a product, I do not care how you package it. Most CFP's support long term care insurance for one simple reason......it keeps them in business, surely you should know that, if a client does not spend down their assets or protects all of their assets then you get to continue managin them and upon their death their kids ultimately have to come to you to figure out what mom and dad had, why would you risk cutting your nose off ? Please explain your reasoning Ron.
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Author: TheBadger Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2584 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 2:29 PM
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I couldn't personally disagree more!

Do you pay an CPA/tax accountant (I am one) a percentage of your refund?

Does your Doctor sell you drugs (If he did I would think of it as a conflict of interest)?

IMNSHO, it is a literal 100% impossibility to provide unbiased professional service (of any type) when you also sell the implimentation products as well. If you think you can you are fooling yourself.

As a result, I do not sell any products & never will; further, anyone who asks, I advise them to never, never use the services of a commission based professional in any industry; particularly: CFP's, CPA's, CLU's, lawyers, etc. To do so is to immediately create a conflict (although it is sometimes artfully hidden) of your objectives versus their objectives; it is unavoidable.

TheBadger


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Author: Chipsboss Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2585 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 2:45 PM
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I agree with the Badger. You have to bet that if you use the services of someone whose interests inevitably conflict with yours, you as the client will lose.

Chips, speaking from sad experience

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Author: TheBadger Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2586 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 2:52 PM
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Chips, needless to say, I agree. Now you can turn it around. Once your planning is done in whatever area we might be talking about; you can then go to a "commission" based individual in that discipline; because oyur planning says you now want to buy some of those products; and work through the commissioned based individual to get the products you want and maybe some better pricing or additional detailed service.

TheBadger


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Author: jasmada One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2587 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 3:34 PM
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Oh gee I don't know,

Lets see you get $250.00 to help someone file their taxes, which they could easily do online with most of the tax software out now. They write you a check and then get their refund a few weeks later, do you tell them that their fee should come out of their checking account and not their refund. Do you tell them to put their refund in their checking account so you feel better, it really does not matter how you get paid as long as what you are doing is honest. Don't make yourself feel better by charging a fee, it makes no difference.

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Author: jasmada One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2589 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 3:43 PM
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The Badger writes:

I couldn't personally disagree more!

Do you pay an CPA/tax accountant (I am one) a percentage of your refund?

Does your Doctor sell you drugs (If he did I would think of it as a conflict of interest)?

IMNSHO, it is a literal 100% impossibility to provide unbiased professional service (of any type) when you also sell the implimentation products as well. If you think you can you are fooling yourself.

Jasmada responds: Are you saying then that commission based people then are doing their clients wrong because of the way they are paid, this whole commission and fee arguments is all a matter of semantics I do not care how you get paid it makes no difference. You are being paid for your time commission, fee or otherwise. I should just cut out my commission and then do a fee only when proposing my various insurance plans. Right when I sit down I ask for a $600 check to make a recommendation whether they take the product or not, does that seem fair. Maybe I should change the entire insurance industry to do that. Yep that's what Im going to do, before anyone sits down with someone in the insurance business they pay a flat $250.00 and then depending on which plan they take you just charge per minute to fill out the forms.
Does that sound like a good thing ? It is possible for someone on commission to do the right thing for people, do not turn your bad experience into everyone's bad experience.

Badger Closes:
As a result, I do not sell any products & never will; further, anyone who asks, I advise them to never, never use the services of a commission based professional in any industry; particularly: CFP's, CPA's, CLU's, lawyers, etc. To do so is to immediately create a conflict (although it is sometimes artfully hidden) of your objectives versus their objectives; it is unavoidable.


TheBadger


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Author: BigLon One star, 50 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2599 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 4:38 PM
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I find it interesting that most of you posters on the "Retired Fools" seem to still be working and not retired. I thought as a retiree the past 7 years I would throw in my 2.5 cents worth. As one who lived strictly on commissions for over 30 years selling most of the products that are being discussed I feel qualified to make a comment or two. First, it really doesn't matter if it's fees, commissions or a combintation as long as you are honest and disclose to the client how you are compensated. Dishonest people, poor advice, and self serving interests exist with both means of compensation. I can appreciate and understand jasmanda's passion, but wonder if his time might actually better spent with real clients as opposed to cyber clients. I no longer find the need to toot my horn with my academic and professional accomplishments and find that "Retired" suits me just fine. Because of some decent retirement planning on my part I am able to spend six months of the year living in New Zealand and six month in California and really wish this board dealt more with the retirement issues of those just about to retire or already retired. BTW------I am happy to have not only medicare supplement insurance, but LTC.

Cheers-----BigLon

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Author: TheBadger Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2602 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 4:59 PM
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Are you saying then that commission based people then are doing their clients wrong because of the way they are paid, this whole commission and fee arguments is all a matter of semantics I do not care how you get paid it makes no difference

Whenever the professional: accountant, insurance agent/broker (well, that's a stretch), doctor, financial planner, etc. sets him or herself out to the public and offers "free consultations" and the like attempting (and often suceeding) that he or she is providing "unbiased" & "on-the-money" professional advice on whatever is relevant; then YES, IT MATTERS A GREAT DEAL; because that professional; at a minimum is compromised by his desire to sell a product from his stable of products on which he will earn a commission versus truly giving the client the "unbiased" prfoessional counsel that they thought they were getting. A a maximum; that "professional" is a liar & a thief becuase he will frequently not disclose his motives for offering the advice he gives.

Case in point: Bob & Mary use their insurance agent for their financial plan. The agent says: 1. do your 401(k)'s at work; 2, Open up ROTH IRA's; & 3. Take all the rest of your money & start contributing to deferred annuities with my insurance company.

I'm sorry, but for 1 or 2 cases per 1000; that agent belongs in prison.

TheBadger


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Author: rjm1 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2605 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 8:58 PM
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Jasmada responds: Are you saying then that commission based people then are doing their clients wrong because of the
way they are paid, this whole commission and fee arguments is all a matter of semantics I do not care how you get paid it
makes no difference. You are being paid for your time commission, fee or otherwise. I should just cut out my
commission and then do a fee only when proposing my various insurance plans. Right when I sit down I ask for a $600
check to make a recommendation whether they take the product or not, does that seem fair. Maybe I should change the
entire insurance industry to do that. Yep that's what Im going to do, before anyone sits down with someone in the
insurance business they pay a flat $250.00 and then depending on which plan they take you just charge per minute to fill
out the forms.


I think what is being said is that you can get good service from a commission salesperson once you know what you want.

For example an insurance agent my sell insurance and annuities but not individual stocks. I do not think his advice to me would be to buy stock, rather he would try and sell an annuity or universal life with and equity base. He will do his best to convince me that his product is the right one for me.

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Author: TheBadger Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2607 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/27/2000 11:06 PM
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Precisely; when in fact (most of the time) the annuity or other product in that particular salesman's bag is not the most effective product for you; however, the most effective product for you is not for sale from that "commissioned" sales person; therefore it is not ofered to you; instead you are offered another product; subordinate although it might be; it is nonetheless offered becuase that salesman has some in his or her bag for sale.

This is classic "conflict of interest" wherein the sales person is either conciously or unconciously putting his or her objectives ahead of; or even on the same playing field as your objectives. The wosrse part is that you don't know any better, he or she does!

TheBadger


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Author: bwhiteclu Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2613 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/28/2000 6:22 PM
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Open letter to:
jasmada
TheBadger

jasmada, I can identify with your style, and like BigLon, I was on your side of the fence for over 30 years. I said identify, not appreciate. One wonders if you were not raised in the house of a Southern Baptist minister. Convert, convert, convert and never take NO or an objective reason to decline your product as a final answer. I am amazed that you can be as successful as you claim to be, considering that you are as confrontational as you are, and that you have enough time to post 210 posts in less than 30 days. I am primarily a lurker who looks at people's ideas and thought processes to help me make decisions on my own. I note that many people who post to this board have made decisions, rational or irrational may they be, and you do yourself no credit in making hard-sell, confrontational, sarcastic and derisive replies. I agree with BigLon. You would have EVEN MORE success if you devoted some of your time to a Dale Carnegie course instead of getting in everybody's face who does not agree with you. Full disclosure--I was born and raised a Southern Baptist, although I no longer attend that church, and I sold insurance on commission for almost 40 years before recently retiring. BigLon, I didn't do as well as you--no 6 months in NZ, but hell, my wife does not like to fly anyway.

TheBadger, you are just about as confrontational and derisive as jasmada. Let me just say that you would have an ethical problem (which you did not disclose) as a CPA if you did taxes or audits or writeups on a contingency basis. Violation of ethics rules. If it were not a violation, and you had grown up in the business where that was acceptable, then you would probably have a different opinion about commissions. That does not mean you would not be honest and objective in all your dealings with a client. However, some wouldn't, so that's why they have the rules. We all have conflicts of interest, whether or not we are fee paid, commission paid or a combination thereof. The trick is to look past the conflict of interest and do the right thing for the client. To say that you would not do business with anyone who gets paid a commission is disingenuous to say the least, and I daresay that you pay somebody a commission every day. In defense of commissions, I must say that it is the most efficient way of doing business, as it rewards "labor" for effectiveness, and drives out those who are not effective. jasma, as abrasive as he is, over a long period of time can be the most effective of providers of long term care coverage, if he looks past the conflict of the commission and does the right thing for the client. The guy at the next desk might not be able to do that. You could be the best provider of tax and financial services advice on a fee-only basis that exists. Or, you could pad your hours, not perform work that you say you did, or assign the work to others who are inept and pocket the difference in the fee.


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Author: TheBadger Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2615 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/28/2000 7:17 PM
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TheBadger, you are just about as confrontational and derisive as jasmada.

IMNSHO, I beg to differ.

Let me just say that you would have an ethical problem (which you did not disclose) as a CPA if you did taxes or audits or writeups on a contingency basis.

You are 100% correct & I have never in the past and never will in the future provide any service to any client for other than a straight forward fee; either T&M or fixed fee.


Violation of ethics rules. If it were not a violation, and you had grown up in the business where that was acceptable, then you would probably have a different opinion about commissions.

Not true, I will explain below.

That does not mean you would not be honest and objective in all your dealings with a client. However, some wouldn't, so that's why they have the rules. We all have conflicts of interest, whether or not we are fee paid, commission paid or a combination thereof.

Again, not true, I have absolutely no conflict of interest in my representation of a client. My efforts are 100% in favor of the client & absolutely no one else's. Professionally & morally, I have no one else's interests to bear other than the client's. The rules in our profession are structured so we can say that.


The trick is to look past the conflict of interest and do the right thing for the client.

Again, not true. <grin> You don;t have to look past it if it isn't in front of you.

To say that you would not do business with anyone who gets paid a commission is disingenuous to say the least, and I daresay that you pay somebody a commission every day.

Again not true in the sense that that is not what I said. Yoy need to read the posts a little more carefully. More following.

In defense of commissions, I must say that it is the most efficient way of doing business, as it rewards "labor" for effectiveness, and drives out those who are not effective.

I would only causally take the opposite view particularly as it relates to the change in commission structures in the securities & insurance industries over the last 20 years. One only needs to ask why the commissions were so high 5, 10 , 15 20 years ago compared to where they are now. If anything, closed commissions structures of the old days did more "coodling" than "driving out".

jasma, as abrasive as he is, over a long period of time can be the most effective of providers of long term care coverage, if he looks past the conflict of the commission and does the right thing for the client.

He could; he might; but how do you or I know as a potential client? Once conflict of interest, and its potential downside risks to the purchaser become apparent; it's pretty hard to simply dismiss their existence & equally hard to determine if they are influencing a potential transaction for profit.


The guy at the next desk might not be able to do that. You could be the best provider of tax and financial services advice on a fee-only basis that exists.</>

I believe so.

Or, you could pad your hours, not perform work that you say you did, or assign the work to others who are inept and pocket the difference in the fee.

Again, I suppose I could; but what you describe is "theft" or "deceptive trade practices" both of which are cause for: 1. loss of license; 2. loss of certificate; 3. fines; 4. time in jail; and neither of the points you make have anything to do with conflict of interest.

Now, let's start at the beginning. This all started when Jasmada declared that when one wants to obtain (certified) financial planning services; that it did not matter whether the planner was paid: 1. out-of-pocket fixed fee; 2. planning services were free but the planner also sells products for which he receives a commission; 3. Some mixture of 1 & 2.

IMNOSHO, this is pure *(&)&*%^%. I pay commissions for stuff I am assuming most days of the week whether I know it or not. And further, there is absolutely nothing dishonest about a commission & every salesperson in the world is entitled to maximize their commissions & enjoy the fruits of their labors; however, a salesman should and most do declare that they are infact salesmen & not something else. Further, we all expect a salesman to: 1. earn a commission; 2. to have his or his employer's best interests at heart. We all know it, expect it & in certain industries can enjoy (or anguish) in the conflict; e.g. attempting to purchase a car.

HOWEVER, and it is a huge however, don't for a moment attempt to convince me or anyone else (because it is simply false on its face) that a CFP who is also: 1. an insurance broker; 2. stock/bond broker 3. mutual fund saleman; 4. real estate broker is: independent and/or has the client's best interests at heart or has no conflict of interest when the "financial plan" is prepared for free and the guy hopes to sell his products as part of plan implimentation. I'm sorry, I've heard it before; I've seen it before and its a lie; it's simply a matter of degree. CFP/life insurance salepeople are the worst becuase there are no "unsuitablility" standards; as a result, I see clients at my door; loaded to the gills with high commission; high expense margin; high termination fee; deferred annuities that never, ever should have been sold in the first place. Why did it happen? Because a less than financially astute couple went to a a financial planning seminar for free; did the follow-up with the salesman (who presents him or herself, not as a saleperson, but as a financial planning specialist) got the "free" custom tailored plan; AND GUESS WHAT; to neither your suprise or mine; the plan (it was right there in black & white) said that the couple should purchase deferred annuities from Duey, Cheatum & Howe Life Insurance Company. In plainer English, this not-so-hypothetical couple got bamboozled, snookered, taken-to-the-cleaners, or whatever other word you might like to use on it because: 1. the salesman lied through deception & 2. had a clear conflict of interest which was never disclosed; resulting in net harm to those people. lastly, and this is almost the sickest part of it: the life insurance saleman / financial planner does not even know he or she lied to the clients because that's how they were taught.

In summary; do not get me wrong; I favor & in fact enjoy the art of salemanship & those people are deserved of all the commissions they earn. However, when the salesman dons the sheep's clothing of a financial planner (certified or otherwise), I say shrear the sheep & cook some mutton.

TheBadger
(who only holds one license)








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Author: bwhiteclu Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2617 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/29/2000 6:43 AM
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Sorry Badger, I may have misread you about dealing with commission based professionals. However, in your posts 2584 & 2589 you did say "anyone asks, I would advise never, never use the services of commission based professionals in ANY industry particularly CFP's,CLU's..., etc. I assumed you followed your own advice, yet we all know that when we go to the auto repair shop or the men's store that we are more than likely dealing with somebody who receives commissions or is partially compensated by a percentage of the sale or gross profit or markup on the work or product. Even the girl at the coffee shop who you tip is getting a %. Guess it depends what the definition of "is" is, or professional as it may be. Sometimes it is hard to convince a CPA that any other discipline or occupation can be made up of professionals.

Sometimes a commission is the only fair way to deal with a client. Consider the poor young widow who seeks advice for a $15,000 or $20,000 life insurance settlement that she wants to invest for her kids education: You would charge her a fee for a plan of upwards of $1,000 and send her down the road or to the internet broker with a recommendation to purchase a certain type of mutual fund, and come back next year for a review and update. And a reminder letter would go out next year (conflict of interest?). Or you would tell her that she really did not have a big enough asset to warrant the time and charges you would have to bill her in order for you to make a living. (Thank you for coming in. Pay the lady up front $75 for consultation time.) Then you could smugly sit back and deny any conflict. She goes down to the commission paid broker, who spends time with her deciding how she should invest the money for her kids education and IF she invests it he makes 2-3% for the transaction. A better deal for her...she did not need nor could she afford a financial plan. A good deal for you because you did not want to fool with her in the first place.

You see? I can be as cynical as you.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2620 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/29/2000 11:02 AM
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bwhiteclu wrote,

Consider the poor young widow who seeks advice for a $15,000 or $20,000 life insurance settlement that she wants to invest for her kids education: You would charge her a fee for a plan of upwards of $1,000 and send her down the road or to the internet broker with a recommendation to purchase a certain type of mutual fund, and come back next year for a review and update.
And a reminder letter would go out next year (conflict of interest?). Or you would tell her that she really did not have a big enough asset to warrant the time and charges you would have to bill her in order for you to make a living. (Thank you for coming in. Pay the lady up front $75 for consultation time.) Then you could smugly sit back and deny any conflict. She goes down to the commission paid broker, who spends time with her deciding how she should invest the money for her kids education and IF she invests it he makes 2-3% for the transaction. A better deal for her...she did not need nor could she afford a financial plan. A good deal for you because you did not want to fool with her in the first place.


Why not just forget about CFPs, CLUs, and CPAs and just give the poor young widow the 800 number for Vanguard. That's where she's least likely to get screwed.

intercst



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Author: RVGolding Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2623 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/29/2000 1:18 PM
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Why don't the three or four of you argumentive posters challenge each other to a duel (hopefully to the death). It would make it so much easier on the rest of us!
RVG

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Author: GLSHEFF Two stars, 250 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2626 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/29/2000 4:33 PM
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Why don't the three or four of you argumentive posters challenge each other to a duel (hopefully to the death). It would make it so much easier on the rest of us!
RVG

I think if you go back for a few days, you will see that the arguments mostly come from one source and dont think it fair to paint others who have consistently and knowledgeably answered many questions on this board as argumentive. The Badger especially has helped many people here. Just because someone takes issue does not make both parties a problem

just my .02

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Author: Grumpybiker Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2627 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/29/2000 5:26 PM
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<<Why don't the three or four of you argumentive posters challenge each other to a duel(hopefully to the death). It would make it so much easier on the rest of us!
RVG >>

Gee, Ralph, that sounds almost like a "postal" attitude. ;-{)}}

Regards,

Grumpy
SSG, USA (Ret.)
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/7958/Pix/e-trike4.jpg

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Author: bwhiteclu Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2630 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 2/29/2000 6:16 PM
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Yup...your'e right and I got 50 cents in and will not post any more on this subject.

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Author: huck97503 Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2645 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 3/1/2000 12:00 PM
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When the CFP have enough confidence in there ability to manage money and take there fee out of the gains and get zip when there are no gains I will consider one.

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 2652 of 19221
Subject: Re: CFP's Date: 3/1/2000 5:00 PM
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CBS MarketWatch had an article on how to find a financial planner, see link:

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/20000229/news/current/loeb.htx?dist=nwtam

The article is basically a rehash of time-honored advice from the "Wise." I particularly liked the advice that you should expect to spend between $2,000 and $3,500 for a basic financial plan. What they don't tell you is that a 30 year old who reads a $15 paperback book on the subject and manages his own finances will likely do very well.

The $2,000 to $3,500 savings, invested at a 10% return, would be $56,000 to $98,000 at age 65.

intercst

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