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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 53806  
Subject: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 6:25 AM
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The wr is almost over, with allied forces at the gates of Bagdd. However this article from the NYT does not paint an optimistic picture about the success of the "hearts and minds" battle for public opinion. Before the wr began, the State department wrote a paper on the region entitled "No Dominos." It explained why installing a democracy in Irq was unlikely to produce a domino effect amongst neighbouring countries. The reality of the region? There is not a functioning democracy in existence. The challenge to gov is not a nascent democracy movement at all, but fundamentlism. This wr will just further inflame those movements and radicalise one of the few countries that while barking mad, was at least secular.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/04/international/worldspecial/04ARAB.html
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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22384 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 6:39 AM
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"... Before the wr began, the State department wrote a paper on the region entitled "No Dominos." It explained why installing a democracy in Irq was unlikely to produce a domino effect amongst neighbouring countries. The reality of the region? There is not a functioning democracy in existence..."
-------------------------------

Do you and the State Department think the inhabitantsare incapable, that they can't govern themselves or that they need to remain subjects rather than masters of their own destiny, using self government and publically elected representatives as their bureaucratic servants?

'Tigerman'

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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22386 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 6:46 AM
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Err Tigerman, I think that if you have any knowledge about the region at all, rather than just operating from Western assumptions about what the region wants, then you would know that democracy is not number one on the to do list. THERE ISN'T ONE ANYWHERE. THERE IS NO MOVEMENT TO INSTALL ONE ANYWHERE.

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Author: CPAgentPreppie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22388 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 6:58 AM
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Yet since 1996, Dr. Shikaki has been polling Palestinians about what governments they admire, and every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving more than 80 percent approval. The American system has been the next best, followed by the French and then, distantly trailing, the Jordanian and Egyptian.

In its early days, the Palestinian Authority held fourth place, with about 50 percent approval. Now, it is dead last, under 20 percent. Corruption, mismanagement and the stagnation of the Palestinian predicament have turned the culture of criticism against the Palestinian rulers


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/international/middleeast/02LETT.html

I know it's Palestine but it sounds like there is a movement for a democracy in the mid-East.

Agent

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Author: DoctorBombay Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22389 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:11 AM
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Israel

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Author: DirtyDingus Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22390 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:13 AM
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Err Tigerman, I think that if you have any knowledge about the region at all, rather than just operating from Western assumptions about what the region wants, then you would know that democracy is not number one on the to do list. THERE ISN'T ONE ANYWHERE. THERE IS NO MOVEMENT TO INSTALL ONE ANYWHERE.

Err it my be rigged and limited but Iran sure as heck shows those nasty green shoots of democracy and the demand for more is blindingly obvious. I see no reason why Iraq would not do the same given the right impetus.

DD

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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22391 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:14 AM
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Agent,
the culture of criticism is certainly alive and kicking in the area. Unfortunately it is not aimed internally, but rather externally at the west, as the NYT article demonstrates. In fact am foreign policy has been an advantage for bloated oligarchies a la Orwell's 1984. Where criticism is focused on gov, it is not in the form of a pro democracy movement, it is in the form of a fdmentlst movement. Specific examples? Check out countries like SA, Jord, Ept, etc, etc. Many historians believe that the reformation was a key element in the developement of western democracy. That happened in 1517 in Europe. Despite the date being 2103,it has yet to happen in the arb world. Recently a guy in Irn suggested that it would be a good thing and got sentenced to death for his trouble. Doesn't bode well.

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22392 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:17 AM
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"Err Tigerman, I think that if you have any knowledge about the region at all, rather than just operating from Western assumptions about what the region wants, then you would know that democracy is not number one on the to do list. THERE ISN'T ONE ANYWHERE. THERE IS NO MOVEMENT TO INSTALL ONE ANYWHERE. "
-----------------------

I think you've found the mistake then.

Hopefully, more of the foggy bottom losers will retire or resign and we will advocate, demand self governance and institutions in place that must respect what we here consider inalienable rights for all mankind.

'Tigerman'



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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22394 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:20 AM
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"...Many historians believe that the reformation was a key element in the developement of western democracy. That happened in 1517 in Europe. Despite the date being 2103,it has yet to happen in the arb world. Recently a guy in Irn suggested that it would be a good thing and got sentenced to death for his trouble. Doesn't bode well."
------------------------

IIRC, people that opposed the church's notion that the world was flat had problems too. That didn't make the world flat.

THE truth will set them free..

'Tigerman'



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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22395 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:22 AM
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"we will advocate, demand self governance and institutions in place that must respect what we here consider inalienable rights for all mankind."

What, like you're doing currently with your support for SA and Ept???
Pro democracy movements, if they are to succeed, emerge from popular local demand for them, not from the imposition of them by a county that is regarded as a colonial bully. Bombing people into democracy as a strategy seems to me to be doomed to failure, but hey, good luck with it.

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22396 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:23 AM
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Yet since 1996, Dr. Shikaki has been polling Palestinians about what governments they admire, and every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving more than 80 percent approval. The American system has been the next best, followed by the French and then, distantly trailing, the Jordanian and Egyptian.
---
I know it's Palestine but it sounds like there is a movement for a democracy in the mid-East.


If you're trying to chalk this up to President Bush's policies, note that this has been true of Palestinians since at least 1996.


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Author: DoctorBombay Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22398 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:28 AM
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Recently a guy in Irn suggested that it would be a good thing and got sentenced to death for his trouble. Doesn't bode well.

I would suggest that when people are ready to risk their lives to advocate democracy then they are ready to practice it. No dictatorship however has been ready hence the death sentence.

I think this is a good thought piece. I would welcome your comments.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=18824427

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22400 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:30 AM
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Err Tigerman, I think that if you have any knowledge about the region at all, rather than just operating from Western assumptions about what the region wants, then you would know that democracy is not number one on the to do list. THERE ISN'T ONE ANYWHERE. THERE IS NO MOVEMENT TO INSTALL ONE ANYWHERE.


Err... Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories.

Now, of course, Iran's form of democracy is overlaid with a big helping of theocracy; Lebanon's under the thumb of Syria (as you could say Nicaragua or any number of Central American countries are under the thumb of the U.S.); and Palestinian democracy is rife with authoritarianism and corruption (see again Central America.) Palestinians, by the way, are big fans of democracy and are making a considerable effort, under the circumstances, to improve their version of it by wresting political control away from Arafat and giving it to the new prime minister.

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Author: CPAgentPreppie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22401 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:32 AM
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If you're trying to chalk this up to President Bush's policies, note that this has been true of Palestinians since at least 1996

IronicFelix, I know from your reputation at PA that you love to play partisan politics but PLEASE read my message. I said nothing about any administration. I was simply pointing out that the Palestinians admire democracies. Please don't put words in my mouth again.

Agent

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22406 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:43 AM
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IronicFelix, I know from your reputation at PA that you love to play partisan politics but PLEASE read my message. I said nothing about any administration. I was simply pointing out that the Palestinians admire democracies. Please don't put words in my mouth again.

And please re-read my reply. I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was simply pointing out that the Palestinians' admiration of democracy predates the current Bush administration attempt to democratize the region by force or intimidation. It did seem to me, though, that you were saying, "Look, it's working" or that it could easily be taken that way. Otherwise I wouldn't have replied.

It seems I misunderstood you. My mistake.

As for whatever "reputation" I may have at PA, surely, calling me a "partisan" is unfair. I take no side but my own. And I think it's bad manners to drag the PA into it at all. I leave all that at the door, as should you.




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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22407 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 7:48 AM
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The only one that I would accept from this list is Leb. If you look at the relgs breakdown in that country, you will see that it has large groups from other communities. Tur*** has just elected a pres that was a member of a fundmntl movement. Democracy can be used to elect gov that are not democratic, a la Alger**. At the time of those elections, the victorious fundmtls party said about their plans to dispense with democracy after the election, "We believe in one man, one vote. Once." The ensuing bloodbath happened after the west refused to let the victorious party take power because they were planning to install a th*cracy. Thousands have been slaughtered since this happened.

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Author: CPAgentPreppie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22416 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:24 AM
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It seems I misunderstood you. My mistake.

There seems to be a lot of that going around here lately, present company included.

As for whatever "reputation" I may have at PA, surely, calling me a "partisan" is unfair.

Low blow, my mistake. I blame it on 22oz beers for the price of a pint last night until 1AM and posting at 7AM without coffee. It's a recipe for disastor.

Agent

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22419 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:30 AM
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The only one that I would accept from this list is Leb.

I can understand that. It depends, I think, on how strict a critereon one uses. I was comparing these Middle East countries to so-called Latin American democracies or even, say, Russia.

Tur*** has just elected a pres that was a member of a fundmntl movement. Democracy can be used to elect gov that are not democratic, a la Alger**.

Sure. That's not the case, yet, in Turkey though. (Why the ***?)




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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22420 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:32 AM
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Sorry for the cryptic spelling. My location makes it difficult for me to be as explicit as you guys are able to be.

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22422 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:35 AM
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Low blow, my mistake. I blame it on 22oz beers for the price of a pint last night until 1AM and posting at 7AM without coffee. It's a recipe for disastor.

Forget the coffee.

Gwen,

Mix up Felix's hangover cure for Agent please -- your usual Bloody Mary with an extra shot of vodka and a tablespoon of heavy cream.

Felix



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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22424 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:38 AM
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"What, like you're doing currently with your support for SA and Ept???
Pro democracy movements, if they are to succeed, emerge from popular local demand for them, not from the imposition of them by a county that is regarded as a colonial bully. Bombing people into democracy as a strategy seems to me to be doomed to failure, but hey, good luck with it. "
-------------------------

If America has any major fault, perhaps it is we don't call it like it is...

I see nothing wrong with advocating economic and political systems which are unprecedented in honoring and guarding the individuals and their inalienable rights.

Demand for something which ignorance blocks from view is far from an admirable advocacy for people.

Exactly who is bombing people into democracy? Is this a play on words derived from the current warfare to end the perp regime in Iraq? Please name names and instances.

Good luck.

'Tigerman'



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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22426 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:49 AM
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"I see nothing wrong with advocating economic and political systems which are unprecedented in honoring and guarding the individuals and their inalienable rights."
___________________________________________________________________

You think that your economic and political systems are unprecedented in guarding individual rights. I agree with you. We both agree that your system is great, but my point is very few in this troubled region think that. The problem is that while this may be your rhetoric, you are currently engaged in propping up regimes which are none of the above. This means that when you start singing a song about love for freedom and democracy, everyone over here immediately accuses you of being inconsistent and hypocritical. In that sense everyone here would agree that "you don't call it like it is."
___________________________________________________________________
"Exactly who is bombing people into democracy?"
___________________________________________________________________

You are in Irq. Your stated aim is "regime change." Your method to achieve this is military. The reaction from this part of the world is outlined in the NYT article.

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22427 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:49 AM
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"...Sorry for the cryptic spelling. My location makes it difficult for me to be as explicit as you guys are able to be. "
------------------

He's worried about spooks.

'Tigerman'



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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22430 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:54 AM
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Tigerman,
I don't mean to be rude, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. You have absolutley no idea about my location or what it means. Following the current debate, I have been worried by the level of ignorance that exists about geo-political reality in this region. Your flippant comment confirms that. You have been singing a song about how we should immediately install a US fun loving democracy over here and how everyone is just going to jump at the chance to be liberated. Hey, if you want to find out how possible this is, head over here and check it out. It might jolt you out of your complacency.

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22431 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 8:58 AM
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"...The problem is that while this may be your rhetoric, you are currently engaged in propping up regimes which are none of the above. This means that when you start singing a song about love for freedom and democracy, everyone over here immediately accuses you of being inconsistent and hypocritical. In that sense everyone here would agree that "you don't call it like it is...""
-------------------

America's overarching drive is commerce, freely flowing wordwide. Businesses engage and focus on market shares. That's a lot better than conflict and power struggles involving small mined Saddamn types.

We don't advocate mirror institutions as ourselves as much as we far too much respect other country's determining their own screwed up attempts to re-invent what exists.

A free press and level, unbiased educational institutions would go a long way towards eliminating the irrational revulsion for things American.

Don't fall for the leftist's wails and whines regarding the coalition bombings being indescriminant.
The Iraqi regime's duplicity I think will be revealed in due time and I see the Franch and German heads of state are more vocally accomodating to American and coalition sentiments as the days proceed.

'Tigerman'


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Author: DoctorBombay Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22433 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:05 AM
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I think Tigerman was just trying to be funny.

That said, here's what we know about what makes the human animal prosperous.

Respect for the Rule of law
Respect for private property
Trade
Pluralistic government (excpet Singapore)

For decades we have been invited to help bring about peace and prosperity in the middle east. This is the American solution. Remove brutal dictators and install the institutions of prosperity.

I fear if this is not embraced, and I think it will be but I remain full of doubt, then that was your last shot. We'll simply say you had your chance. We'll let the best and brightest immigrate to America and we'll ruthlessly attempt to bring about a hydrogen economy.

If people view this as an opportunity and there is sufficient historical precedent to do so, then the arab street should come around quickly as Iraq transforms, blossoms again and "Made in Iraq" becomes the new logo on goods everywhere.

Accomodating some American foiboles and hosting us until Iraq get's it's house in order is the price of liberation.



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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22434 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:07 AM
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"Tigerman,
I don't mean to be rude, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. You have absolutley no idea about my location or what it means. Following the current debate, I have been worried by the level of ignorance that exists about geo-political reality in this region. Your flippant comment confirms that. You have been singing a song about how we should immediately install a US fun loving democracy over here and how everyone is just going to jump at the chance to be liberated. Hey, if you want to find out how possible this is, head over here and check it out. It might jolt you out of your complacency."
--------------

Fine. Pick a single topic and lets have a go at it.

I could suggest; the educational matter/books in Palestininan schools, the administration of Japan or Germany after defeat in WWII, humans are humans - regardless of skin color or birth geography, brain function related to race, suitability for educational achievement....

'Tigerman'



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Author: edux Big red star, 1000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22435 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:08 AM
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The Bush administration is in a lip lock with the Likud party. Actually it is worse than that, the Likud party has co-opted the White House foreign policy making apparatus. They are calling the tune and George is doing the texas two step thinking how much fun he is going to have with control of all that oil.

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22436 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:10 AM
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"I think Tigerman was just trying to be funny.

That said, here's what we know about what makes the human animal prosperous.

Respect for the Rule of law
Respect for private property
Trade..."
------------------------

That's true, I'm not trying to be obtuse or argumentative. I respect your points made although I may not agree with them all.

'Tigerman'


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Author: DoctorBombay Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22438 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:15 AM
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Springtime Spinach Salad

Prep Time: 15 min
Total Time: 15 min
Serves: 8 to 10

Ingredients
1 pkg. (10 oz.) spinach leaves
2 cups sugar snap peas or pea pods
2 cups sliced strawberries
1/2 medium red onion, cut into thin wedges
1/2 cup PLANTERS Sliced Almonds, toasted
3/4 cup KRAFT Special Collection Classic Italian Vinaigrette Dressing

Preparation
PLACE all ingredients except dressing in large bowl. Add dressing; toss lightly.





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Author: CPAgentPreppie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22440 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:22 AM
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franchot,

I have to wonder if there is no sign of people wanting democracy because they live under oppresive governments who snuff out any hint of coups. Perhaps the people do enjoy living under totalitarian rule but when such a government does not allow speech that challenges their rule, it's hard to gauge whether they want it or not.

Agent

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Author: DoctorBombay Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22443 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:29 AM
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My Grandma's Ravioli
Recipe courtesy Wolfgang Puck,

Recipe Summary
Prep Time: 2 hours 30 minutes Cook Time: 1 hour 10 minutes
Yield: Makes 36 to 40 ravioli; 5 to 6

1 pound baking potatoes (about 2 large), scrubbed thoroughly
2 tablespoons (1/4 stick) unsalted butter
2 tablespoons minced shallots
1 teaspoon minced garlic
8 ounces farmer cheese
5 ounces goat cheese
2 ounces mascarpone
3 tablespoons freshly grated Parmesan
2 tablespoons minced fresh mint leaves
2 tablespoons minced fresh chervil leaves
1 egg, lightly beaten
Kosher salt and freshly ground white pepper
1 recipe Basic Pasta Dough, recipe follows
Semolina or all-purpose flour, for dusting
1 egg lightly beaten with 1 teaspoon water, for egg wash
1 tablespoon olive oil
8 tablespoons (1 stick) unsalted butter
1/4 cup freshly grated Parmesan
Kosher salt and freshly ground white pepper
Minced fresh flat-leaf parsley leaves
1/4 cup toasted and chopped hazelnuts

Make the filling: Bake the potatoes in a preheated 350 degree F. oven until fork tender, about 30 to 40 minutes. Peel, and while still warm, pass through a food mill. In a small saute pan, heat the butter over medium heat. Add the shallots and garlic, and cook until soft. In a medium bowl, combine all the cheeses, the herbs, and the beaten egg. Add the cooked shallots and garlic and the warm potato. Stir until blended (being careful not to overmix, or the mixture will get pasty). Season with salt and pepper. Cover and refrigerate until needed. Then, with lightly moistened hands, roll into 1/2 ounce balls, about the size of golf balls.
Cut the pasta dough into 4 portions and work with 1 portion at a time, keeping the remaining dough covered with plastic wrap. Lightly dust the work surface with flour. With a pasta machine or a rolling pin, roll out the dough about 20 inches long and 4 inches wide. Brush the dough with egg wash and arrange 9 to 10 balls of filling on the lower third of the length of the dough, about 1 to 1 = inches apart.

Fold the top half over to cover the balls. Press the dough around each ball to seal, making sure that you do not have any air pockets. With a 2-inch round cookie cutter, cut the ravioli. Dust a tray with flour and arrange the ravioli on the tray, dusting with more flour. Repeat with the remaining dough, egg wash, and filling. Refrigerate, covered, until needed.

Bring a large pot of salted water to a boil. Cook the ravioli until al dente, about 3 to 4 minutes.

Meanwhile, in a large saute pan, over high heat, add the oil and the butter. Cook the butter until it begins to brown. Drain the ravioli and toss into the browned butter, turning to coat both sides. Add the Parmesan cheese and season with salt and pepper. Garnish with parsley and hazelnuts and serve immediately.

Basic Pasta Dough:
3 cups flour
8 large egg yolks
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 teaspoon extra virgin olive oil
3 to 5 tablespoons water
Semolina or all-purpose flour, for dusting

In a food processor fitted with the steel blade, combine the flour, egg yolks, salt, olive oil, and 2 tablespoons of the water. Process until the dough begins to hold together, then stop the machine and pinch the dough to test it. If it's too dry, add up to 1 more tablespoon of water and process until it forms a moist ball. Turn out on a lightly floured smooth work surface and knead by hand, until a smooth ball is formed. Loosely wrap in plastic wrap and let rest at room temperature for 30 minutes to 1 hour.
Cut the dough into 4 equal pieces. Keep the other pieces covered in plastic while you roll out 1 piece at a time, by hand with a rolling pin or through the rollers of a pasta machine, stretching the dough to the desired thickness.

If using a pasta machine, set the rollers at the widest opening. Flatten the first piece of dough into a thick strip no wider than the machine, to enable it to pass through the rollers. If necessary, dust the pasta very lightly with flour. Run the pasta through the machine. Fold in thirds, crosswise, and run through the machine again. Repeat this procedure 2 or more times, until the dough is smooth and somewhat elastic. Set the machine to the next smaller opening and run the dough through the rollers.

Continue rolling and stretching the dough, using the smaller opening each time, until the next to the last or the last opening is reached, dusting lightly with flour only as necessary. (The strip of dough will be long. If you don't have enough space on your worktable, halfway through the rolling process cut the strip of dough in half and continue to work with each piece separately, keeping the unused dough covered).

Adjust the cutting mechanism to the desired width, cut the noodles, and allow them to dry before cooking. A convenient way to dry pasta is to arrange the cut pasta on a pastry tray sprinkled with flour, preferably semolina flour. As 1 layer is completed, sprinkle flour over the noodles, place a piece of parchment paper over them, and continue layering with noodles and flour. Dry for at least 15 to 20 minutes.

Repeat with the remaining pieces of dough.

Yield: Makes about 1 1/2 pounds; 6 to 8 servings


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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22444 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:33 AM
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My wife put cheese in my egg sandwich this morning. Stringy, and surprising. I still thanked her breakfast though.

'Tigerman'

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Author: patchdodd Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22446 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:36 AM
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My Grandma's Ravioli
Recipe courtesy Wolfgang Puck,

Recipe Summary
Prep Time: 2 hours 30 minutes Cook Time: 1 hour 10 minutes


Eating Time: 10 Minutes.

Sounds yummy. Much better than the Chef Boy R Dee that I'm used to.

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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22447 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:36 AM
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Let me just clarify something. I am where I am for the same reason as every other expatriate - tax free dosh. When I'm done, I'm out of here. It makes me sick when the left starts bleating about how your country is turning into a plce stte (fill in the missing vowels) cos I have first hand experience of one and the left doesn't know what it's talking about. I think that the problem is that neither the left nor the right have an analysis which fits this region - both are too committed to dogma which doesn't apply. The right thinks that everyone wants a happy clappy democracy. Wrong. I think the Agent has it about right - some people are addicted to tyranny. The left thinks that everything the west does is wrong and that the rest of the world is full of lovely, peaceful people oppressed by the big bad US. Wrong. A lot of the rest of the world is in a pre medieval state and doesn't have any apparent desire to emerge from it. When the left goes on about america being the third reich and "hedge" being H*tler, it just makes me want to puke because they haven't got a clue what they're talking about. By the way tigermann, my friends would find the idea that I am left wing comical to say the least. Ányway it's interesting to debate this with you guys - lets hope for all our sakes that my pessimistic take on things is not on the money.
Cheers

It's evening for me now so I'm off to have a large G & T. I'll stand a round for anyone else who cares to join me, tho probably too early in the day for you guys!

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Author: DoctorBombay Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22449 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:39 AM
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It's evening for me now so I'm off to have a large G & T. I'll stand a round for anyone else who cares to join me, tho probably too early in the day for you guys!

I'll float a cornflake in my beer and join you.

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Author: emschulze Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22450 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:40 AM
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This war is about the nature and limits of national sovereignty.

Whether one calls it an application of "preemption" or an application of "neo-sovereignty" (as Lee Harris does - see link below), the label doesn't matter. What matters is the actual functional effect of what is happening.

The US/UK coalition is saying: the governance of Iraq is, in fact, a matter of grave concern to us - it is of such concern that we are prepared to pay a substantial cost in lives and materiel to insure that the governance of Iraq does not present a threat.

The point of waging war in Iraq is to destroy the illusion that regimes have unfettered control of their affairs within their borders. The UN would not deal with the illusion - in fact, they fostered the illusion - so we must.

The facilitation of democracy in Iraq is not an end; instead, it is a means to an end. The US acts, first, to end a security threat - efforts to democratize Iraq are aimed at insuring that the threat does not manifest itself again.



Lee Harris link:

http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=1051-350&CID=1051-031103A

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Author: tgrmn Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22451 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:40 AM
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"...It's evening for me now so I'm off to have a large G & T. I'll stand a round for anyone else who cares to join me, tho probably too early in the day for you guys!"
----------------------

Thanks, I've enjoyed virtually all the variations of G & T but I'll pass. It probably wouldn't sit well with my breakfast. Have a great evening.

'Tigerman'



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Author: edux Big red star, 1000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22452 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:40 AM
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fanchot, just a point of explanation; apparently we are in a recipe barrage. This is a curious phenomenon that occurs here when people are at a loss for words for rational rebuttal and they resort to throwing recipes. I mean is this a hoot or what?

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Author: CPAgentPreppie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22453 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:40 AM
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I think the Agent has it about right - some people are addicted to tyranny.

"Deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king." - Sideshow Bob

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Author: franchot Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22459 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:50 AM
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Edux,
was wondering about that - thought I'd morphed into a Martha Stewart website. Never mind mate, here's my recipe:

* Gordons

* Tonic

* large slice of lemon

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22460 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:50 AM
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America's overarching drive is commerce, freely flowing wordwide.

Unless, of course, we're talking about imported sugar... or steel... or...

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Author: CPAgentPreppie Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22461 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:52 AM
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Unless, of course, we're talking about imported sugar...

In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women...

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/1F17.html

AgentHomerSimpson

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Author: nsoley Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22462 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:52 AM
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Unless, of course, we're talking about imported sugar... or steel... or...

Don't forget softwood lumber...

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Author: LeftBlank Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22522 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 12:12 PM
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Your link is about other Arab countries, not Iraq. Though I have been critical of US policy and the war, I think we need to look at the full picture. There is definitely cheering in Iraq. From the same day's edition of the newspaper you cite:

As the marines pushed northward today along Highway 6, hundreds of Iraqi civilians passed them fleeing south, cheering and encouraging the troops as they passed. It was one of the first signs of a large movement of people out of Baghdad since the American bombing began two weeks ago, and one of the warmest receptions the Americans have gotten to date.

The Iraqis crammed into buses, cars and taxis, piling out of a city they said was no longer safe. One man drove himself and his family south on a motorcycle and sidecar, another in a 1954 Dodge pickup. A third man, standing in the bed of his pickup, raced down the highway shouting the only words in English he knew.

"George Bush!" he cried, whizzing past.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/04/international/worldspecial/04MARI.html

Iraqis ask US soldiers to help them topple Saddam statue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/04/international/worldspecial/04TOWN.html

And from Baghdad, John Burns:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/04/international/worldspecial/04BAGH.html

I love the image of the Iraqi cop pulling over a speeder even as US troops approach. I wonder how he slipped this stuff past his minders...

The fear driving the exodus, by car, bus and truck, was of street-to-street fighting, revenge killings, a last-minute paroxysm of violence by the enforcers of the terror that has bludgeoned Iraq for three decades. For many Iraqis, this has been the nightmare all along, the least calculable part of the "price" they tell Westerners they have known would come with any American invasion to topple Mr. Hussein.

The implication in these whispered conversations has been that there has been a price, in limited casualties, that many, perhaps even most, Iraqis would be prepared to pay for their freedom, but that equally there was a price that would be too high.

With the battle for Baghdad about to be joined, that price will now be set, and with it, an outsider can imagine, the estimate many Iraqis will ultimately make of the war. But many people in Baghdad seem to have made their judgment about the air campaign already.

After the first few days, life in the city's streets gradually began reviving as confidence grew that there was not going to be widespread carnage, with American bombs and missiles striking wildly at civilians. Today, as for many days past, city-center gathering spots like Liberation Square, site of the lamppost hangings of nine Iraqi Jews condemned for spying in 1969, were busy with fruit and vegetable sellers, and hawkers doing brisk trade in the water canisters and buckets, duct tape and canned food, sacks of flour and candles, that have been the biggest sellers in recent weeks.

<snip>

In others, including the marketplace bombing that Iraq said killed 62 people in the Shula district of western Baghdad on Friday, there have been more questions than answers. Often, as in Shula, officials have delayed taking reporters to the site for hours, and have met with evasions the inquiries about the unusually small crater at the marketplace, and the fact that most victims appeared to have died from shrapnel wounds and not from the kind of blast associated with high-energy bombs and missiles.

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Author: CantChangeBack Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22528 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 12:27 PM
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- some people are addicted to tyranny.

Too bad for them. I say we FORCE them to have a democracy and freedom.

Sheesh,
Ralph

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Author: CantChangeBack Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22529 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 12:31 PM
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A lot of the rest of the world is in a pre medieval state and doesn't have any apparent desire to emerge from it.

Which was fine when they didn't have post-medieval technologies like chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. It sucks that it was fine, but it was fine.

But Bush doctrine is you have a choice:
1) WMD
or
2) Stalinist Dictatorship
and you can't choose both or Gwen will stop serving you and Terry will bounce you.

(Yeah I know, NO-ONE is supposed to have WMDs except the leaders of the world and the French. But the world hasn't needed to go to war against the more reasonable of the violators. De facto, you have to be a total nutjob with WMDs before anybody will bother coming after you around here.)

Ralph

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Author: FoolishlyFree Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22531 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 12:35 PM
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Do you and the State Department think the inhabitants are incapable, that they can't govern themselves or that they need to remain subjects rather than masters of their own destiny, using self government and publically elected representatives as their bureaucratic servants?

I don't know about the franchot, but I don't think the State Department has that opinion. Rather, I think the State Department doesn't think the existing governments will allow the domino effect to occur.

Here's an alternative view:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/international/middleeast/02LETT.html

Yet since 1996, Dr. Shikaki has been polling Palestinians about what governments they admire, and every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving more than 80 percent approval. The American system has been the next best, followed by the French and then, distantly trailing, the Jordanian and Egyptian.

In its early days, the Palestinian Authority held fourth place, with about 50 percent approval. Now, it is dead last, under 20 percent. Corruption, mismanagement and the stagnation of the Palestinian predicament have turned the culture of criticism against the Palestinian rulers.


FF

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Author: FoolishlyFree Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22533 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 12:39 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/international/middleeast/02LETT.html

I know it's Palestine but it sounds like there is a movement for a democracy in the mid-East.


Great minds think alike. ;^)

FF

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Author: FoolishlyFree Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22545 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 12:51 PM
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If you're trying to chalk this up to President Bush's policies, note that this has been true of Palestinians since at least 1996.

While I know that Agent can speak for himself, I also posted this article in response. I don't see anything in his remarks or in the quote that would even suggest that Bush had anything to do with it. IMO, it speaks to the universal desire for self-government. Though the polls started in 1996, I doubt that the desire for self-government suddenly started in 1996 and has nothing to do with who the American president was, but rather has everything to do with human nature.

FF

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Author: IronicFelix Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22548 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 12:56 PM
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While I know that Agent can speak for himself, I also posted this article in response. I don't see anything in his remarks or in the quote that would even suggest that Bush had anything to do with it.

Thanks, Ken. Agent and I have already cleared this up.





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Author: FoolishlyFree Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22562 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 1:30 PM
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The reaction from this part of the world...

Which is? What country are you in? Are you a citizen? Do you live there?

If you can't answer this for safety reasons, that's okay, but please respond so I know at least you read it.

FF

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Author: JimZipCode Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22572 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 1:50 PM
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For decades we have been invited to help bring about peace and prosperity in the middle east. This is the American solution. Remove brutal dictators and install the institutions of prosperity.

Yes. "European Miracle II: The Middle East".


I fear if this is not embraced, and I think it will be but I remain full of doubt, then that was your last shot. We'll simply say you had your chance. We'll let the best and brightest immigrate to America and we'll ruthlessly attempt to bring about a hydrogen economy.

What's a hydrogen economy? Euphemism for blowing the place up?


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Author: FoolishlyFree Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22604 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 2:36 PM
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There is definitely cheering in Iraq.

I may have already posted this, but just in case:

From http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=24481

(Note the website)

When we finally made it to Safwan, Iraq, what we saw was utter chaos. Iraqi men, women and children were playing it up for the TV cameras, chanting: "With our blood, with our souls, we will die for you Saddam."

I took a young Iraqi man, 19, away from the cameras and asked him why they were all chanting that particular slogan, especially when humanitarian aid trucks marked with the insignia of the Kuwaiti Red Crescent Society, were distributing some much-needed food.

His answer shouldn't have surprised me, but it did.

He said: "There are people from Baath here reporting everything that goes on. There are cameras here recording our faces. If the Americans were to withdraw and everything were to return to the way it was before, we want to make sure that we survive the massacre that would follow as Baath go house to house killing anyone who voiced opposition to Saddam. In public, we always pledge our allegiance to Saddam, but in our hearts we feel something else."

Different versions of that very quote, but with a common theme, I would come to hear several times over the next three days I spent in Iraq.


FF


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Author: FoolishlyFree Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22611 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 2:52 PM
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Thanks, Ken. Agent and I have already cleared this up.

Yeah, I know. Unfortunate side effect of this medium. I found that out after I had posted my response, just like I posted the same article only to find out that Agent already had.

FF

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Author: MichaelRead Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22738 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 6:08 PM
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franchot,

I have to wonder if there is no sign of people wanting democracy because they live under oppressive governments who snuff out any hint of coups. Perhaps the people do enjoy living under totalitarian rule but when such a government does not allow speech that challenges their rule, it's hard to gauge whether they want it or not.

Agent


I understand franchot's view. Yet it is a fixed point in time. Your point: that dictatorships constrain dissent and because of this it is not known what a populace wants or doesn't want democracy is a vital point. Unless there is an option that can be exercised no one knows fully if that option could be realized. QED.

How a democracy in Iraq is realized may have different procedurals yet the baseline of representation in multiple rather than singular will be accomplished. What franchot is saying is that there is no bedding in which it can flourish and in that I disagree.

If the US does what it has said, conquer Saddam Hussein's rule and, after a short period, create an environment in which Iraq is ruled by an Iraqi council offering the option for democracy it is my belief the Iraqis will take that option and run with it.

I cannot believe that the average Iraqi in the coming months will want any semblance of rule even approximating that of the Ba'ath regime. We are overthrowing an army that supports the regime – the leadership of a post-war Iraq will take the concept of democracy and while it may not be as ours it will have the same underpinnings.

TJ brought out the necessity for a rule of law and the rights of property as parts of a democracy. I would add that the rights to petition under law and to have the courts uphold property rights will be a primary move in a new Iraq. Because of this the entire situation in Iraq will change.

I don't think the Iraqis are so inculcated with 30 years of repression that they can't overthrow it and seek another path. They are not stupid. What they have experienced is 30 years of rule through fear, torture and threat. They have seen that extreme and, my view, they will repudiate it en masse once they have the opportunity caused by the end of Saddam Hussein's regime. What support they will need is the same support given in Kosovo and Afghanistan.

My view again: I fully believe that in less than three years Iraq will have a flourishing democracy. It's won't be as ours yet at a deep level it will be the same: peace, order and good government; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To those who think this is a far-fetched view give it time. It will happen.

MichaelR




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Author: DoctorBombay Big gold star, 5000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22775 of 53806
Subject: Re: cheers for the liberation. Not. Date: 4/4/2003 9:00 PM
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What's a hydrogen economy?

Hydrogen Fuel Cells replacing oil as a primary fuel for automobiles and electricity.

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