UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (114) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 63325  
Subject: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/23/2007 5:13 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 40
Michael Moore is being interviewed right now on MSNBC's Hardball. Chris Matthews asked him "Why are people opposed to "socialized medicine"?

Moore, "First of all, we should be calling it "Christianized medicine", because it's what Jesus would do. There isn't any major religion that doesn't tell the faithful to take care of the sick."

I like it. If you're not for it, you're not Christian.

intercst
Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8514 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/23/2007 7:43 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Moore, "First of all, we should be calling it "Christianized medicine", because it's what Jesus would do. There isn't any major religion that doesn't tell the faithful to take care of the sick."

Michael Moore is sooo much smarter than I am.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8515 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/23/2007 8:14 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 12
<<I like it. If you're not for it, you're not Christian.

>>



Just more evidence that Moore is properly charaterized as a propagandist.


No doubt we will see many appalled Liberals on this board protesting that the United States is not a "Christian" nation?


Or perhaps we will see intercst support laws restricting divorce and abortion in support of his newly discovered Christian values?




Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8516 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/23/2007 8:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
"Moore, "First of all, we should be calling it "Christianized medicine", because it's what Jesus would do. There isn't any major religion that doesn't tell the faithful to take care of the sick."

I like it. If you're not for it, you're not Christian."

Heal, brother, Heal.... hmmm...Jimmy Swaggert??? or one of the other tele evangelists...

Heck, we won't need any federal money for health care. We'll simply extend the gov't funding slighty to 'faith based' organizations like Swaggert and the other loonies on TV with the 'faith healing'. Cancer? not a problem....nor is anything else....

Despite all the alleged 'wisdom' of one of the godthingies, there were no cures for the masses, no anti -biotics, no penicillin, no great wisdom on how to prevent the bubonic plagues that spread through Eruope centuries later...... heck, a Boy Scout knows more about sanitation and health that the supposed godthingie on earth......

I can just see another faith based organizations sucking great sums of money for 'christian medicine' practicies.....

Does Moore even have a clue?

Or maybe he intended to leave out the muslim doctors that are everywhere, including the few in LOndon trying to blow up 'the infidels'..... but we have lots of them here in the USA along with loads of Indians (Hindu or other)....


t.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8518 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:37 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 72
Just more evidence that Moore is properly charaterized as a propagandist.

No doubt we will see many appalled Liberals on this board protesting that the United States is not a "Christian" nation?

Or perhaps we will see intercst support laws restricting divorce and abortion in support of his newly discovered Christian values?


I think the point was that the very people whining the loudest about how burdensome it is to help their fellow man are almost always self-described Christians.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: MrSnarkyPants Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8521 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 7:38 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
I think the point was that the very people whining the loudest about how burdensome it is to help their fellow man are almost always self-described Christians.

Indeed. Moore was delivering the Southern put-down "bless your heart" beautifully.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8522 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 9:05 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 7
Just more proof that Moore is a moonabt and not to be trusted. When I read the Bible, I see Jesus urging people to look within their own hearts and give of themselves. However, I do not see Jesus urging people vote to take money from others.


c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8523 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 9:10 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
{{I think the point was that the very people whining the loudest about how burdensome it is to help their fellow man are almost always self-described Christians.}}



You have this stated incorrectly.


Here is how it should go:
"I think the point was the the very people whining the loudest about how horrible the heatlhcare system is, are less likely to be self-described conservative Christians, who have been proven in multiple studies to be more generous with their giving."


c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8535 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 11:20 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 16
"I think the point was the the very people whining the loudest about how horrible the heatlhcare system is, are less likely to be self-described conservative Christians, who have been proven in multiple studies to be more generous with their giving."
c

-----

"multiple studies"? Really?

Do you have a link to one? A link to an unbiased study?



TIA




ten

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8540 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:22 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 6
Or perhaps we will see intercst support laws restricting divorce and abortion in support of his newly discovered Christian values?


The bible says nothing about restricting abortion.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8542 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:24 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
conservative Christians, who have been proven in multiple studies to be more generous with their giving."


Gates and Buffet pretty much put the lie to this post, eh?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8543 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:24 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
<<Or perhaps we will see intercst support laws restricting divorce and abortion in support of his newly discovered Christian values?


The bible says nothing about restricting abortion.
>>


As I understand it, it does say "thou shalt not kill." Abortion is the gratuitous killing of a developing human being.




Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: XCgeoff Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8545 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
The bible says nothing about restricting abortion.

It doesn't say anything about drunk driving either.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8547 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 7
As I understand it, it does say "thou shalt not kill." Abortion is the gratuitous killing of a developing human being.

That's what people who have never read the Bible say. In Exodus, which is the same book of the Bible that contains the 10 commandments, there is another law in the next chapter that touches on this subject:

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exodus 21:22

Note that causing a miscarriage is dealt with by paying a simple fine to the husband. Compare that to say, the penalty for fornication or striking your parents, which is death.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8548 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
SP: "As I understand it, it does say "thou shalt not kill." Abortion is the gratuitous killing of a developing human being. "

Was that after the 250,000 were killed in the olde testament, and Saul was honored for all he had killed in battle in the name of the godthingie???? In fact, he was rewarded for all those he had killed.

The bi-bull also says 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'.

As far as I can tell, lots of witches were killed, all in the name of the bi-bull.

It's amazing how often folks spout that, then have no problem accepting the 'honor killings' in the Middle East, no problem accepting the 'jihad' of the islamofascists......making excuses for it.....etc.

So quoting the bi-bull is an exercise in futility. In contradicts itself so often it is worthless as a guide to living.

the godthingie is always going around 'smiting' this and that.

Fine example. 250,000 were 'smitten' (made dead) in the olde testament alone, and that was a considerable percentage of the population back then.

t.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8551 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 12:48 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
>> SP: "As I understand it, it does say "thou shalt not kill." Abortion is the gratuitous killing of a developing human being. "

Was that after the 250,000 were killed in the olde testament, and Saul was honored for all he had killed in battle in the name of the godthingie???? In fact, he was rewarded for all those he had killed.
<<

Some interpretations say "Thou shalt not commit murder," not "thou shalt not kill." Not all killing is classified as "murder." Killing in self-defense would be an obvious example.

#29

Print the post Back To Top
Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8553 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 1:07 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
SeattlePie says

As I understand it, it does say "thou shalt not kill." Abortion is the gratuitous killing of a developing human being.

The correct translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder." So as long as it's legal, abortion isn't forbidden by the Bible.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8554 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 1:10 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Today's army of maggots is carrying detritus from Opinonjournal.com to all corners of the internet. Oh well. I had work to do today.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8558 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 2:00 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
"Some interpretations say "Thou shalt not commit murder," not "thou shalt not kill." Not all killing is classified as "murder." Killing in self-defense would be an obvious example. "

SOme 'interpret' preventing a zygote from attaching to the uterus, or disrupting the connection no different than killing AIDS virus or ebola virus or polio virus..........

Since nature itself causes spontaneous loss of the zygote or fetus, then obviously the 'godthingie' intended that this be an occurence that does not impose the wrath of the godthingie.

Now any godthingie worth his/her salt would have foreseen all the future questions and made them perfectly clear from the start. I assume the godthingie has the intelligence, and of course the ability to not only control the future (otherwise why worship such a impotent critter?).....

And if additions are needed, just like the Constitution and Bill of Rights and Amendments, they would be forthcoming in quick order rathter than being 'whispered' to the alleged leaders so they could inform the rest of us.

Any alleged 'ominpotent' 'omnipresent' godthignie worth his/her/its salt would be sending out easily understood instructions.... likely now they have to cope with tens of millions of text messages headed their way too along with email and the spam.

Or maybe they delight, just you might do, 'smiting' a few tens of thousands of ants (especially fire ants where I will 'smite' the queen as frequently and often as possilbe)..... just to confuse the rest of the ants...


t.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8559 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 2:07 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
Just more proof that Moore is a moonabt and not to be trusted. When I read the Bible, I see Jesus urging people to look within their own hearts and give of themselves. However, I do not see Jesus urging people vote to take money from others. - cattleman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Huh? What about Ananias and Sapphyria in the book of Acts when they're struck down dead for withholding money from the group? First Century Christians were definitely economically communal-istic. - Art

Acts 2
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

Then in Acts 5:
1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. 3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. 7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." 9 Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." 10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8560 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 2:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
<<SeattlePie says

As I understand it, it does say "thou shalt not kill." Abortion is the gratuitous killing of a developing human being.

The correct translation is "Thou shalt not commit murder." So as long as it's legal, abortion isn't forbidden by the Bible.
>>


I am no bible expert, but somehow I suppose that the defining what God permits to be killed isn't left up to the government to decide.





Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8563 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 2:34 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
I am no bible expert, but somehow I suppose that the defining what God permits to be killed isn't left up to the government to decide.
Seattle Pioneer

-----

Well, since nobody's heard nor seen God for a coupla thousand years, someone's got to make a decision.

Oh, waitaminit... Dubya gets messages from God, doesn't he... hmmm
He's the 'Decider', he's the government.

And what about the death penalty? Decided by (you guessed it) government.

Terri Schiavo... yep, government.
[Government wouldn't let her die. Weird, huh?]




Looks like you're wrong. The government does decide.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8577 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 5:13 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
"I think the point was the the very people whining the loudest about how horrible the heatlhcare system is, are less likely to be self-described conservative Christians, who have been proven in multiple studies to be more generous with their giving."

I don't know what studies you are referring to, but most of the studies I have seen that arrive at the conclusion you reached was due to the inclusion of money donated to churches into the category of charitable giving to help others.

When church giving is excluded, I believe the results differ drastically.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8578 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 5:23 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
You have this stated incorrectly.


Here is how it should go:
"I think the point was the the very people whining the loudest about how horrible the heatlhcare system is, are less likely to be self-described conservative Christians, who have been proven in multiple studies to be more generous with their giving."


No, I really don't think that is what Michael Moore was trying to say.

Interesting interpretation though.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8587 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 6:10 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
<<Well, since nobody's heard nor seen God for a coupla thousand years, someone's got to make a decision.

Oh, waitaminit... Dubya gets messages from God, doesn't he... hmmm
He's the 'Decider', he's the government.

And what about the death penalty? Decided by (you guessed it) government.

Terri Schiavo... yep, government.
[Government wouldn't let her die. Weird, huh?]




Looks like you're wrong. The government does decide.

>>



Officials decide the position of the government, but not matters of religious faith, at least not in this country.


So the government can permit abortion, while some religious and secular people may still decide such actions are immroal, if not illegal.




Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8596 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 7:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
I am no bible expert, but somehow I suppose that the defining what God permits to be killed isn't left up to the government to decide.

It's always left up to the most violent, hateful persons in any group, whether they're the government or not.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8616 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 10:53 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
It doesn't say anything about drunk driving either.


It does speak against getting drunk, though.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8617 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 10:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
it does say "thou shalt not kill."

Plenty of Xtians argue that point.


Abortion is the gratuitous killing of a developing human being.


Except that you can't come up with a definition of "human being" that makes that a true sentence in all cases.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8618 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 11:23 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"I think the point was the the very people whining the loudest about how horrible the heatlhcare system is, are less likely to be self-described conservative Christians, who have been proven in multiple studies to be more generous with their giving."
c

-----
"multiple studies"? Really?

Do you have a link to one? A link to an unbiased study?

TIA

If you include contributions to churches (as was the case in c's "multiple studies". Leave out the church and the situation is likely reversed.

cliff

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8620 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/24/2007 11:27 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
<<I am no bible expert, but somehow I suppose that the defining what God permits to be killed isn't left up to the government to decide.

It's always left up to the most violent, hateful persons in any group, whether they're the government or not.

6
>>


Does this apply to secularists promoting abortion as well, or are they a noble exception to your rule?



Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8631 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:29 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
Does this apply to secularists promoting abortion as well, or are they a noble exception to your rule?


The Bible says that nothing happens unless God wants it to. That means abortion is part of his plan. Abortion is as christian as it gets.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: inhanyt Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8632 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 7:30 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
heh heh.

Say what you want about Michael Moore, he hits the nail on the head pretty often.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: VUCommodore Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8637 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 8:26 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"The Bible says that nothing happens unless God wants it to."

Where does it say that? I bet it's right next to the verses that say "God helps those who help themselves", or prehaps it comes after the eleventh commandment (the commandment against dancing).

Alot of people think (assume) that they know alot about the Bible.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8642 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 8:55 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
When church giving is excluded, I believe the results differ drastically.

Well, since you started excluding certain things, let's exclude contributions to wacko-enviro organizations, and perhaps also exclude pro and anti-abortion organizations, and the whole host of semi-political charitable organizations both left and right leaning. And there are many other types of organizations that purport to be "charitable", but in essence are really "clubs" of some sort. Frankly, I don't think any of those should be considered true tax-deductible organizations, I would only include those organizations that truly help those unfortunate people that need help without supporting some huge organizational hierarchy, or worse, lining a bunch of pockets, before reaching the intended recipients.

My dad worked for the Ford Foundation (at the time, the largest foundation in the USA) for many years and after many years of observation from the inside, his conclusion was that it was clearly operated primarily for the benefit of it's executives, it's employees, the various companies servicing the execs/employees (travel everywhere around the world in high style, fancy catered meals all the time, very nice building in midtown Manhattan, and uncountable other high-end perks), and for the benefit of a huge number of assorted hanger-ons (often called consultants). The actual "good works" were only secondary in importance, and were often fruitless due to mismanagement, as the program managers seemed to prefer to remain coddled at their high-end hotels and spas rather than to remain on-site to supervise the actual programs.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8647 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 9:58 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"commandment against dancing)."

that's a silly fundie 'RULE'.....

Since they see that John the Baptist got his head chopped off because a dancer managed to woo the affections of the king, and when he asked her what she wanted, she wanted the head of John the Baptist....so it was whacked off...and the fundies take this as a 'sign' that dancing is bad.

Don't you know that religion is all about 'suffering' and 'enduring'? The Pilgrims were so afraid of doing the wrong thing on Sunday that most stayed home, afraid to go out and commit a sin.....closed the curtains and stayed inside all day and prayed, hoping to make it through the day. It was the 'day of rest' and that meant doing no chores, making no animal work hauling you to town, etc. Everything got to rest...other than the mother who had to feed everyone, carry the water, etc.

Acutally, you'll find 3 different verions of the ten commandments in the olde testament, and they don't agree with each other.

t.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: VUCommodore Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8649 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 10:23 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Agreed that the prohibition against dancing is a silly rule. I'm not sure that it comes from where you say it does, but I don't see any biblical reason that dancing is wrong.

All religion is clearly not about "suffering" and "enduring"; for one thing, there's clearly a good amount of joy:

Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Romans 12:15

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, Philippians 1:18

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Philippians 4:4


This is not to say that there is no patience or suffering, in fact the Bible says to expect it. It is a typical mischaracterization (by both believers and non-believers) to say that religion is all about suffering, or to say that there is no suffering at all (the prosperity doctrine, etc). The truth is somewhere in the middle.

About the commandments -- Exodus 20 and Exodus 34 have two different sets. But they don't disagree with eachother, they compliment eachother.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8652 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 10:46 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"The Bible says that nothing happens unless God wants it to."

Where does it say that? I bet it's right next to the verses that say "God helps those who help themselves", or prehaps it comes after the eleventh commandment (the commandment against dancing).

Alot of people think (assume) that they know alot about the Bible. - VUCommodore

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe in fate and predestination.

Jeremiah 1:
4 The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Art

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8655 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 11:05 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
<<I don't know what studies you are referring to, but most of the studies I have seen that arrive at the conclusion you reached was due to the inclusion of money donated to churches into the category of charitable giving to help others.

When church giving is excluded, I believe the results differ drastically.

>>



Not all churches qualify as charities. They have to meet the same 401(3)(b) standards as any other organization to qualify as a charity.


Your attempt to exclude churches as charities is arbitrary and unreasonable.



Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8657 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 11:18 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Your attempt to exclude churches as charities is arbitrary and unreasonable.

Seattle Pioneer

Thanks for clearing that up.

cliff

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8661 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 11:54 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 49
Does this apply to secularists promoting abortion as well, or are they a noble exception to your rule?

By "secularists promoting abortion", I presume you mean, "people who care about other people who don't live inside a uterus"?

I've never heard of anybody shooting a doctor for not performing abortions. So you tell me, which group is more prone to violence? All I do is vote and write letters. I haven't bombed a HEALTH SERVICES CLINIC lately. Unlike your friends in the woman-hating crowd, I am not a terrorist.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8666 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 12:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
<<Does this apply to secularists promoting abortion as well, or are they a noble exception to your rule?

By "secularists promoting abortion", I presume you mean, "people who care about other people who don't live inside a uterus"?

I've never heard of anybody shooting a doctor for not performing abortions. So you tell me, which group is more prone to violence? All I do is vote and write letters. I haven't bombed a HEALTH SERVICES CLINIC lately. Unlike your friends in the woman-hating crowd, I am not a terrorist.

6
>>


Oh, you are a holocaust denier?


Hitler never killed as many human beings as have Liberal abortion policies. I'd guess they even outnumber Stalin's victims, by this time.

The greatest holocaust of the 20th century has been the massacre of developing human beings by their mothers, aided by doctors and hospitals.




Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8679 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:07 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
"The Bible says that nothing happens unless God wants it to."

Where does it say that? I bet it's right next to the verses that say "God helps those who help themselves", or prehaps it comes after the eleventh commandment (the commandment against dancing). Alot of people think (assume) that they know alot about the Bible.



Gee, it's written in one of the most popular Christian books on the market, which quotes the chapter and verse.


if we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

There is also this:
Regardless of the circumstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you.


http://www.godisimaginary.com/i6.htm

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8681 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
Hitler never killed as many human beings as have Liberal abortion policies.


Except abortion doesn't kill human beings.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8685 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:12 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
>> Except abortion doesn't kill human beings. <<

This, religion aside for the moment, is why abortion will always be a third-rail issue. There's no way we'll ever all agree on the definition of a "human being."

I don't think of a zygote -- a clump of just a few cells a couple days old -- as a human being.

I don't think of a viable fetus a few days from full term as NOT human.

The problem is that not every agrees with me, and even if they did there's a LOT of gray area in between.

#29

Print the post Back To Top
Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8688 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:20 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"Your attempt to exclude churches as charities is arbitrary and unreasonable."

On the contrary..studies of US churches have showm nearly all spend less than 5% of income received on 'charitable deeds'.

The Catholic CHurch was Nr 1, with 5% of income actually going to charitable causes.

Most others were in the 1 to 2% range.

Most of the money is spent on building buildings and maintaining them, paying utilities, telephone, staff, priests, retirement home costs for nuns and priests, etc.

t.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8689 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:21 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
There's no way we'll ever all agree on the definition of a "human being."


One thing we can *all* agree on is that no definition of human being works before implantation. And that means it's a man-made definition.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8692 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:31 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

Art
--------

Well my own "revised standard version" from the Methodist Church I was given as a young boy is worded a bit differently:

"He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ to the purpose of his
will"

Not to be nit picky, but rather as an example of how the various versions can tweek with a subtle twist.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8697 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:35 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
{{One thing we can *all* agree on is that no definition of human being works before implantation. And that means it's a man-made definition.}}


That depends on the definition of human being. Scientifically, a good argument can be made that an organism of the species homo sapiens exists at the moment of conception. Under what circumstances an organism of the species homo sapiens a human being or close enough to a human being that it deserves the rights of a human being is never going to be decided in a manner that satisfies everyone.



c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: VUCommodore Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8698 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 1:37 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
You said: "nothing happens unless God wants it to"
Bible says (NIV translation): "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

You clearly are seeing something that I'm not. How does "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" translate into "nothing happens unless God wants it to". If you read the surrounding verses (about how the author was known to God even in the womb, etc), it sounds like its saying something more like "you already knew everything that would happen to me before I was even born."

This is not really the appropriate place to nitpick, but I didn't want anyone to be misguided by your distorted assumptions about what the Bible says. Sorry to everybody else for the off-topic posts.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8705 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 2:02 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
<<Hitler never killed as many human beings as have Liberal abortion policies.


Except abortion doesn't kill human beings.
>>


Yes, the first thing needed to do mass murder in society is to deny the humanity of that which you would kill.


For the Nazis, I understand that involved simply saying, "But these are Jews!"


For those who want to deny the modern Holocaust of abortion, it involves denying that a developing human being is still a human being.


Thank you for illustrating this method of denying the facts.



Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8708 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 2:06 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 30
For the Nazis, I understand that involved simply saying, "But these are Jews!"


For those who want to deny the modern Holocaust of abortion, it involves denying that a developing human being is still a human being.


Thank you, SeattlePioneer, for declaring that you view me and my family and all other Jews as the equivalent of a two-celled organism. We appreciate it more than you know. Really.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8709 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 2:06 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
There's no way we'll ever all agree on the definition of a "human being."
---------

Many here may already be aware of this, but the Oglala Sioux had a very definate view that to become a Human Being was something we attained along the way in life by practicing loving kindness & living an honest disciplined life.

Not a status any are born with

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8715 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 2:30 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
{{Thank you, SeattlePioneer, for declaring that you view me and my family and all other Jews as the equivalent of a two-celled organism. We appreciate it more than you know. Really.}}


That is not at all what he said.



c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8718 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 2:55 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
the first thing needed to do mass murder in society is to deny the humanity of that which you would kill.


The first thing needed to prove murder is to establish a human victim.


Oh, and there's also the "unlawful" part.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8723 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 3:11 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 8
<<Thank you, SeattlePioneer, for declaring that you view me and my family and all other Jews as the equivalent of a two-celled organism. We appreciate it more than you know. Really.

6 >>


I find it interesting that sofaking6, one of our leading advocates of atheism here, should reach out for a Jewish identity with such confidence. Why is that, one wonders?


She doesn't recognize God. God doubtless doesn't recognize her. There is no unique Jewish race or ethnicity. So where does her sense of Jewish identity come from?


Adolph Hitler would have recognized sofaking6 as being Jewish. Of course, many other social groups were persecuted and liquidated by the Nazis as well, but Poles and Russians, Gypsies and homosexuals don't rely on Adolph Hitler for their identity these days.


In the face of widespread denial of the Jewish religion and intermarriage, not much is holding Jews together as an ethnic group in the United States. Jewish identity seems to rest most importantly on Nazi persecution, with a side influence of Israel.


But really, sofaking6, I wouldn't argue for both your atheism and your Jewish identity on the same thread. Preserve a little consistancy.




Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8729 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 3:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 14
But really, sofaking6, I wouldn't argue for both your atheism and your Jewish identity on the same thread. Preserve a little consistancy.

I am positive that 6 doesn't need defending, nor does she need ME defending her.

However, as someone who also self-identifies as Jewish while at the same time does not believe in god, I'm going to say you have an imperfect understanding at best of where Jewish identity comes from.

First of all, all that you need to have in order to be considered Jewish, whether you want to be considered that way or not, is a Jewish mother. So I can stand there and scream at the top of my lungs that I am not Jewish and deny all possible existence of any supreme being, and a passing rabbi would nod his head and note that whether I liked it or not, mom was Jewish, therefore so am I.

I'm not a "good" or observant Jew, but a Jew nevertheless.

In addition, whether or not you believe in god, Judaism has deeply ingrained cultural aspects that are intertwined with the religious ones. Usually one is spurred on by the other, but again, Judaism has a distinct culture associated with it.

Whether I believe in god or not, I grew up eating Jewish food, observing Jewish customs, surrounded by Jewish people, and taught the Jewish worldview. This means that I have a constant urge to add "thank god" when mentioning that I am fine or that my children are fine, that I completely comprehend the Jewish Mother syndrome as well as have a fine helping of constant Jewish guilt, I know the right way to make matzoh balls for soup, I make a really good tzimmis, and I DO know what a good bagel tastes like.

So this statement: There is no unique Jewish race or ethnicity.

Is utter hooey. There is absolutely a Jewish culture, and you CAN be raised in it, absorb it, be confident of it as something that is, literally, your birthright, yet still not believe in god.

I will refer you to the Beliefnet Virtual Talmud:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/virtualtalmud/2007/07/what-can-jews-believe-about-je.html

A Jew does not need to believe in God to be a good Jew.

There's a ton more like that.

Instead of consistency, how about arguing for a little comprehension?

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8730 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 3:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
But really, sofaking6, I wouldn't argue for both your atheism and your Jewish identity on the same thread. Preserve a little consistancy.

You are getting way out on front of your skis here, SP. Unlike being say, a Catholic, many Jews see no logical contradiction between being an atheist and a practicing Jew.

You've been lecturing a lot of people on the finer points of religious dogma. However, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Before you make your next lecture about the Gospel of SeattlePioneer, do us (and yourself) a favor and pull...the beam out of your eye.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8734 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:25 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Thank you, SeattlePioneer, for declaring that you view me and my family and all other Jews as the equivalent of a two-celled organism. We appreciate it more than you know. Really.

He views you and the two-celled organism as being of the same species, not that you are equivalent. That view is up for debate, as it's not clear in what way the organism is human. It has human DNA? So does my saliva.

Certainly there's no disputing that you are of the same species as a newborn infant, but that doesn't mean that you are equivalent to one, even if you sometimes act like it.

sydsydsyd

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8735 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:26 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
<<
First of all, all that you need to have in order to be considered Jewish, whether you want to be considered that way or not, is a Jewish mother. So I can stand there and scream at the top of my lungs that I am not Jewish and deny all possible existence of any supreme being, and a passing rabbi would nod his head and note that whether I liked it or not, mom was Jewish, therefore so am I.>>



I appreciate your thoughtful reply ---thank you.


But are you arguing that you reject God but embrace the Rabbai and his beliefs?


<<I will refer you to the Beliefnet Virtual Talmud:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/virtualtalmud/2007/07/what-can-jews-believe-about-je.html

A Jew does not need to believe in God to be a good Jew.

There's a ton more like that.
>>



Why quote the Talmud as an authority if you don't believe in God? The truth of the Talmud is based on the existance of God, as I understand it. Without God it's just the words of men who were mistaken in their beliefs and understandings. A quaint artifact from a world that is dead.



I think you are trying to preserve a rope of sand. And as I read magazines like "Commentary" I find this to be a very common worry in periodicals like that.


And of course, much the same thing is going on in many historically Christian families where non observance has no been the rule for a generation or two. The new loyalties tend to be to groups like the Sierra Club, a profession or an employer rather than to Churches that no one bothered to join. Isn't that the real future for non observant families?


Seattle Pioneer

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8742 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:42 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Why quote the Talmud as an authority if you don't believe in God? The truth of the Talmud is based on the existance of God, as I understand it. Without God it's just the words of men who were mistaken in their beliefs and understandings. A quaint artifact from a world that is dead. - Seattle Pioneer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I suppose if being Jewish is equal to being Mexican or French than "yes" one might say that being "Jewish" is a "culture" and not a race or religion. But, since Jews come in every race, shape, color, nationality, politics, and even belief system it sure as heck is no longer a race or religion. Ethiopian Jews look typically African. Chinese Jews are indistinguishable from other Chinese, and most European and Russian Jews don't look all that much different than the rest of the population.

The little Jewish PhD chemist who worked in the lab next to ours had blond hair and green eyes. He claimed he was a New York Jew. His wife and kids looked typically Jewish but he sure as heck didn't. I figure some of his ancestors had pulled a fast one on their spouses.

When I lived in Athens, Georgia I had a really good friend, Larry, who was originally from New York City who was Jewish. He was incredibly funny and cute and all the girls loved him. He had black curly hair (back then) and was hilariously funny, so perhaps another thing that Jews have in common is a great sense of humor?

Art

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8743 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:43 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Adolph Hitler would have recognized sofaking6 as being Jewish. Of course, many other social groups were persecuted and liquidated by the Nazis as well, but Poles and Russians, Gypsies and homosexuals don't rely on Adolph Hitler for their identity these days.


In the face of widespread denial of the Jewish religion and intermarriage, not much is holding Jews together as an ethnic group in the United States. Jewish identity seems to rest most importantly on Nazi persecution, with a side influence of Israel.


But really, sofaking6, I wouldn't argue for both your atheism and your Jewish identity on the same thread. Preserve a little consistancy.


You just argued it for me. As long as the possibility, not even remote, exists that someone may try to harm or kill me for my racial identity, how can I try to deny that racial identity? Or even distance myself from it? I'm pureblooded Jew back at least 5 generations, and probably a lot more than that. So I do disagree with you that ethnically I should not identify as a Jew.

It doesn't have anything to do with culture or religion, I mean except inasmuch as anyone's connection to their family involves those things.

I'm a Jew by virtue of being the daughter of Jews, and by virtue of that fact being something that makes me a target of certain people/groups.

I don't worry about the Jewish culture or religion. Those things evolve over time for all of us, who am I to direct their path?

6

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8747 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:52 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
You are getting way out on front of your skis here, SP. Unlike being say, a Catholic, many Jews see no logical contradiction between being an atheist and a practicing Jew.

You've been lecturing a lot of people on the finer points of religious dogma. However, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Before you make your next lecture about the Gospel of SeattlePioneer, do us (and yourself) a favor and pull...the beam out of your eye.


This is one of those topics though, that I can understand how it fails to make sense to a lot of people. It seems perfectly normal to me but I think most people like SP don't even know any Jews, let alone JAPs (Jewish Atheist Pinkos). So, while I absolutely get defensive about someone equating my moral adherence to skepticism with snake-handling tent-revival freaks, I don't get defensive about the atheist Jew bit. Even Jews get on my case about that.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8748 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:57 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
JAPs (Jewish Atheist Pinkos)
-----

heh... that ain't the way I first heard it.




but I like it!








ten

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8749 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:58 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I'm a Jew by virtue of being the daughter of Jews, and by virtue of that fact being something that makes me a target of certain people/groups.

I don't worry about the Jewish culture or religion. Those things evolve over time for all of us, who am I to direct their path?
sofaking

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you hilariously funny? Do you have a great sense of humor and know instinctively what is humorous. A lot of the Jews I know have a great sense of humor.

Art

Print the post Back To Top
Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8750 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 4:59 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Are you hilariously funny? Do you have a great sense of humor and know instinctively what is humorous. A lot of the Jews I know have a great sense of humor.
Art

-----

Stereotype much?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8752 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 5:07 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
But are you arguing that you reject God but embrace the Rabbai and his beliefs?

That depends. I may very well have a healthy respect for a particular rabbi. They are, after all, human beings. I might like him very much. And it's not about what I believe. It is about what he believes, in this instance. The question was why 6 felt that she could reach for a Jewish self-identity with such a sense of confidence... it's because her whole life she has been taught that it is a perfectly appropriate thing for her to do. If you are told that you have a right to such an identity, and life it from an ethnic perspective, and have also learned that god can be separated from this identity, then why would it be a problem?

The rabbi would embrace me. I do not deny that I was born and raised Jewish. I do not claim to be an observant Jew, though I to find many Jewish principles to be good ways to live my life. As long as the rabbi understands that I am not observant and do not believe in god, we're just fine.

Why quote the Talmud as an authority if you don't believe in God? The truth of the Talmud is based on the existance of God, as I understand it. Without God it's just the words of men who were mistaken in their beliefs and understandings. A quaint artifact from a world that is dead.

The Talmud, and other books of the Old Testament, are more-or-less the "rule book" for the definition of Judaism. You're not going to FIND a definition of what a Jew is without going there.

Again, it doesn't mean that I, as a person, need to believe in god. It means that according to the rulebook that the rabbi would refer to, I have a birthright to Judaism. Again, that would contribute to my sense of self-identification. Since a non-belief in god and the birthright don't actually conflict with one another, there's no issue.

Again, I am not a "GOOD" or "OBSERVANT" Jew. But I cannot help but absorb much of the culture that I was raised in, and that, again, has many aspects unique to the way Judaism works.

Isn't that the real future for non observant families?

I don't feel a need to join any club. I do feel a need to raise my children with a sense of morals and ethics and to feel rooted in the human race. My children are not Jewish, nor is my husband (though any rabbi would argue that my children are, in fact, Jewish!).

However, while I may very well refer to the Bible as a source of discussion for ethics and morals, I do not view it as the source, and, in fact, disagree with many of the stories in there in terms of "ways I want my kids to behave."

And so, back to the original topic of this particular discussion, which seemed to be medicine, however, the topic of abortion came up.

I find it interesting you would compare the abortion debate to the Holocaust. The Holocaust was a systematic attempt at the eradication of a particular ethnicity and its belief structure (or actually, several). It was aimed at the already-born.

Judaism itself actually has a stance on abortion that clearly states that abortion is actually required when the mother is in danger, since the life already in progress trumps the one not yet begun, and the Jewish definition of that is actually when the shoulders of a child emerge from the birth canal.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm#Abortion

In addition, the concept of "Thou shalt not kill" is actually originally "Thou shalt not murder", which is actually different in its intent.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html

The commandment "thou shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17), is better understood to mean "you shall not murder," most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way.
...

In Matthew 5:21-26 Jesus amplifies the meaning of the sixth commandment. He brings out that to commit murder means more then just killing someone, it means having an angry and unforgiving attitude towards them.


I am not saying that there is not much discussion regarding abortion. However, I will say that Judaism and Christianity do not have the same views on the topic.

In addition, not believing in god means that while I may have a Jewish self-identity, I do not consider the Bible to be ultimate authority - on anything - and if someone cannot provide more fodder for the conversation than simply quoting chapter and verse, I do not consider their argument to be worthwhile.

Also, not believing in god means that I do not believe in a soul or an afterlife, and as a result, I do not need to draw an arbitrary imaginary line about "human life" that asks about when a soul is imbued, because it simply does not apply, which is what many of these arguments rest on.

Here's an interesting article you might like to peruse, it's called "When Does Human Life Begin?"

http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162

Food for thought.

GSF

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8753 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 5:07 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Stereotype much? - tenworlds

I think it has everything to do with "why we are here."

To experience duality and separation. The soul becomes a unique separate individual by experiencing separation (like death, divorce, or by time and space - like when a loved one moves far away), and by experiencing duality.

Race, religions, politics,weight, height, color, culture, socio-economic status, personality, emotions, etc. all exist for the sole purpose of imprinting on the soul what it means to be "separate" because on the other side the feeling of oneness and connectedness are overwhelming due to it's holographic nature.

Even crooked teeth, the bumps on our noses, shapes of our faces, etc., all imprint on the soul what it feels like to be a unique individual. That's why we have to live a life in a physical body, so we'll know what it feels like to be an individual. The feelings of oneness and connectedness are so overwhelming on the other side that "individuality" may be the only thing that can't be learned while existing in Heaven due to it's holographic nature and those overwhelming feelings of connectedness and oneness.

Mary's NDE:
"Words can’t describe my awe in this presence. It seemed like I became part of The Light and then the Light became part of me. We were one. I suddenly understood, without question, how interconnected we all are with each other, God and all life forms in the Universe."
http://www.nderf.org/mary's_NDE.htm

Art

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8755 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 5:15 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
When I lived in Athens, Georgia I had a really good friend, Larry, who was originally from New York City who was Jewish. He was incredibly funny and cute and all the girls loved him. He had black curly hair (back then) and was hilariously funny, so perhaps another thing that Jews have in common is a great sense of humor?

Not me. I'm hateful. Ask anyone!

Print the post Back To Top
Author: vickifool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8759 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 5:55 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
http://www.marklevymusic.com/recordings.html

listen to "Every Sperm Does Not Deserve A Name" in the next-to-last album

Vickifool

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8761 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 6:08 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
<<I will refer you to the Beliefnet Virtual Talmud:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/virtualtalmud/2007/07/what-can-jews-believe-about-je.html

A Jew does not need to believe in God to be a good Jew.

There's a ton more like that.
>>
Why quote the Talmud as an authority if you don't believe in God? The truth of the Talmud is based on the existance of God, as I understand it. Without God it's just the words of men who were mistaken in their beliefs and understandings. A quaint artifact from a world that is dead.


I don't consider myself a "good" or "bad" Jew...I only consider myself a *careful* Jew. Any non-Jew I meet, I have to consider the fact that they may despise me for my genes. There is no God; therefore the proscriptions supposedly set down by this nonexistent deity are meaningless to me when it comes to defining my moral standing in any sense.

If I say to a Jew-hating person, "oh I'm not Jewish", my feeling is that I am showing fear of them. I do not fear bigots; I would much rather seek and create opportunities to confront them. Claiming my Jewish race is one way to do this.

And of course, much the same thing is going on in many historically Christian families where non observance has no been the rule for a generation or two. The new loyalties tend to be to groups like the Sierra Club, a profession or an employer rather than to Churches that no one bothered to join. Isn't that the real future for non observant families?

I think so, too...the internet has already created virtual communities...it doesn't seem too farfetched that people will start wanting to make these into more physical communities..maybe the nations of the future. But do not underestimate the power of churches in the US right now. I would say church loyalty easily supercedes national loyalty or familial loyalty, in general.

6

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8762 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 6:13 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
Are you hilariously funny? Do you have a great sense of humor and know instinctively what is humorous. A lot of the Jews I know have a great sense of humor.

It's harder to shove someone in an oven when they're making you laugh.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sykesix Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8764 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 7:56 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
And of course, much the same thing is going on in many historically Christian families where non observance has no been the rule for a generation or two. The new loyalties tend to be to groups like the Sierra Club, a profession or an employer rather than to Churches that no one bothered to join. Isn't that the real future for non observant families?

No.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SirTas Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8766 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 9:16 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
secularists promoting abortion

I don't think anyone's promoting it, but some people take the view that some abortions may be allowed.

--SirTas

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8773 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/25/2007 11:05 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
6: most people like SP don't even know any Jews, let alone JAPs (Jewish Atheist Pinkos).

There, youv'e done it again. Now I gotta go clean the coffee out of my keyboard.

Post SPEW ALERT from now on, please!

cliff

Print the post Back To Top
Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8779 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 9:36 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
Joseph: "Many here may already be aware of this, but the Oglala Sioux had a very definate view that to become a Human Being was something we attained along the way in life by practicing loving kindness & living an honest disciplined life.

Not a status any are born with"

Since y'all are determined to discuss religion on the Retire Early Board, I will too. I think the above quote is an excellent description of my take on atheism. You figure out your core values are based on some combination of empathy, reason, survival genes and/or memes, and, to some extent, just embracing whatever values your parents instilled.


As for the "we are born religious/no we aren't" version of "tastes great/less filling", many of us seem to be born with, or acquire at an early age, a desire to understand the cosmos and our role in it. For millennia we (meaning cultures throughout the world) developed creation myths to answer the unanswerable.

For some reason, many of us still rely on creation myths not only to answer the unanswerable, but even choose creation myths against things we have demonstrated through scientific inquiry.

I can sort of understand people resorting to creation myths to answer the unanswerable - i.e., putting God at the start of the Big Bang, for example. I don't do that any more but I can see why some people would. It's comforting to think you can answer the unanswerable questions.

But to refuse to believe things like evolutionary science because of a creation myth is beyond my ken. It's still hard for me to believe that people still do that.

I doubt I will be able to Retire Early because I waste too much time composing posts like this.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8780 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 9:52 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 12
Sykesix quoting SP:

"But really, sofaking6, I wouldn't argue for both your atheism and your Jewish identity on the same thread. Preserve a little consistancy."


Sykes' reply:

"You've been lecturing a lot of people on the finer points of religious dogma. However, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about."

My addendum:

SP knows understands Jewish heritage and cultural identity perfectly. He made up a definition that sounded right and repeated it till it became established fact.

He also knows what atheists think based upon a similar fact-finding process.

And he knows that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme based on similar reasoning.

And he knows what liberals think based upon similar reasoning - he makes up stuff to fit his stereotypes and repeats it till it becomes fact.

We all know beyond a shadow of a doubt that for SP, "the truth is VERY malleable".

And we keep talking to him anyway, to which I no longer object. I understand now, I think. I talk to my cat.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8781 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 12:22 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
"For those who want to deny the modern Holocaust of abortion, it involves denying that a developing human being is still a human being."

Does this mean that you also consider an acorn to be a tree?

"Thank you for illustrating this method of denying the facts."

Indeed.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8782 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 12:24 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
{{Does this mean that you also consider an acorn to be a tree?}}

No. But it does mean that the acorn is an organism in the developmental pathway of the oak species.




c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ChurchyLaFemme Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8784 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 12:35 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I doubt I will be able to Retire Early because I waste too much time composing posts like this.

Well, do what I did.

Retire.

Then post.

Or (as a slogan on a Deutsche Reichsbahn steam locomotive tender once opined in WWII):

Erst siegen, dann reisen (First win, then travel).

Churchy

Print the post Back To Top
Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8786 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 12:52 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
sofaking6 says

This is one of those topics though, that I can understand how it fails to make sense to a lot of people. It seems perfectly normal to me but I think most people like SP don't even know any Jews, let alone JAPs (Jewish Atheist Pinkos). So, while I absolutely get defensive about someone equating my moral adherence to skepticism with snake-handling tent-revival freaks, I don't get defensive about the atheist Jew bit. Even Jews get on my case about that.

Gotta love it, though, when Christians take it upon themselves to explain Judaism and atheism to atheist Jews.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8787 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:06 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
crass: "Gotta love it, though, when Christians take it upon themselves to explain Judaism and atheism to atheist Jews."


I have learned a lot. I used to waste my time tryting to respond to what people actually said. I can now see that it's much easier to make up stuff, ascribe it to large groups of people, and attack the stuff I made up and ascribed to the other person.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8788 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:12 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"No. But it does mean that the acorn is an organism in the developmental pathway of the oak species."

So why does SP insist on calling a fetus a human being?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: jgc123 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8789 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:19 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
"No. But it does mean that the acorn is an organism in the developmental pathway of the oak species."

Umm: "So why does SP insist on calling a fetus a human being?"

Because you have to define all fetuses, even 5 celled blasocysts, as human beings in order to rationalize the passage of laws aimed at controlling the lives of women.

It's all about making stuff up to support your position whenever evidence and/or logic fall short.

The truth is VERY malleable.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8790 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:21 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
<<"No. But it does mean that the acorn is an organism in the developmental pathway of the oak species."

So why does SP insist on calling a fetus a human being? >>


If you'll notice, I generally refer to developing human beings as what is being aborted.


Diffrerent cultures have different attitudes towards such developing human beings, as has been noted in posts on this thread.

I have no illusion that my stated position should rule. The issue of what government should permit, restrict or prohibit is inherently a political issue, and should be solved by political means.


In 1972, an initiative on the ballot in Washington State liberalized abortion laws, and I happened to have supported it.

But it was an absurd power grab for the Supreme Court to divine a right to abortion in the constitution. Probably the most foolish decision by the Supreme Court in recent decades.




Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8791 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"Well, since you started excluding certain things, let's exclude contributions to wacko-enviro organizations, and perhaps also exclude pro and anti-abortion organizations, and the whole host of semi-political charitable organizations both left and right leaning. And there are many other types of organizations that purport to be "charitable", but in essence are really "clubs" of some sort. Frankly, I don't think any of those should be considered true tax-deductible organizations, I would only include those organizations that truly help those unfortunate people that need help without supporting some huge organizational hierarchy, or worse, lining a bunch of pockets, before reaching the intended recipients."

I agree 100%.

"My dad worked for the Ford Foundation (at the time, the largest foundation in the USA) for many years and after many years of observation from the inside, his conclusion was that it was clearly operated primarily for the benefit of it's executives, it's employees, the various companies servicing the execs/employees (travel everywhere around the world in high style, fancy catered meals all the time, very nice building in midtown Manhattan, and uncountable other high-end perks), and for the benefit of a huge number of assorted hanger-ons (often called consultants). The actual "good works" were only secondary in importance, and were often fruitless due to mismanagement, as the program managers seemed to prefer to remain coddled at their high-end hotels and spas rather than to remain on-site to supervise the actual programs."

I have often thought that one way to clean this up would be to somehow tie the charitable tax deduction to the percentage that actually goes to helping people. For example, if 50% of the Ford Foundation revenues went to overhead and %50 went to actually helping people, someone who donated $100 to the Ford Foundation would only get a $50 deduction.

It would be a record keeping nightmare, but it would sure clean up abuses.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8792 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:33 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
{{So why does SP insist on calling a fetus a human being?}}


Because he considers a fetus to be a human being. That is not necesarily an unreasonable calling.



c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8793 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:38 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
In 1972, an initiative on the ballot in Washington State liberalized abortion laws, and I happened to have supported it.

How do you reconcile this with your stated position that the widespread practice of abortion constitutes a holocaust?

sydsydsyd

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Umm Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8794 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 1:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"But it was an absurd power grab for the Supreme Court to divine a right to abortion in the constitution."

How is deciding that a woman has control over her own body "an absurd power grab"?

If some "lib'rul, do gooder" state decided to solve the organ donation backlog by forcing all healthy people of a certain age to donate one of their kidneys, I imagine the Supreme Court would strike the law down as unconstitutional and you would be one of the people applauding the decision.

"I have no illusion that my stated position should rule. The issue of what government should permit, restrict or prohibit is inherently a political issue, and should be solved by political means."

Except when it comes up against the Bill of Rights.

I will admit one thing though, if the issue was left to be a political issue (decided by popular vote), the issue would have generally be resolved years ago and wouldn't quite be dividing our nation as much as it does. Also, the radical fundamentalist Christian right wouldn't have enjoyed the run they have experienced the last couple of years.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8795 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 2:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
No. But it does mean that the acorn is an organism in the developmental pathway of the oak species.

A sea slug is an organism in the developmental pathway of the human species.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8796 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 2:18 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
{{A sea slug is an organism in the developmental pathway of the human species.}}


No. A sea slug is not an organism of the species homo sapiens. Therefore, it is not in the developmental pathway. The only difference between an oak tree and an acorn is the stage of development. Scientifically, both are organisms of the same species, just at different developmental stages.


c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cattleman22 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8797 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 2:20 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
{{It's all about making stuff up to support your position whenever evidence and/or logic fall short. }}

Your macro is needed on this post.


http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25725170



c

Print the post Back To Top
Author: TeraGram Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8798 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 2:28 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
How do you reconcile this with your stated position that the widespread practice of abortion constitutes a holocaust?

Does the word "misanthrope" mean anything to you?

- T, has most of the answers... I just wish the questions were in the right order.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8804 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 4:45 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
JAPs (Jewish Atheist Pinkos)
-----

heh... that ain't the way I first heard it.




but I like it!



ditto.

liked it enough to rec it.


=

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8806 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 4:55 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I don't think anyone's promoting it, but some people take the view that some abortions may be allowed.


there are a few ....

they argue it's safer, long-term, than other sorts of birth control.


... and many who think all (woman's choice) abortions should be allowed.



=

Print the post Back To Top
Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8810 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 7:00 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
It's harder to shove someone in an oven when they're making you laugh.

6
-------------

I love 6 as much as I know how to love.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8811 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/26/2007 7:01 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
I have often thought that one way to clean this up would be to somehow tie the charitable tax deduction to the percentage that actually goes to helping people. For example, if 50% of the Ford Foundation revenues went to overhead and %50 went to actually helping people, someone who donated $100 to the Ford Foundation would only get a $50 deduction.

A simpler way would be to simply eliminate the deduction for charitable contributions. Why should our taxes support these "charities"?

cliff

Print the post Back To Top
Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8814 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/27/2007 9:17 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
A simpler way would be to simply eliminate the deduction for charitable contributions. Why should our taxes support these "charities"?

Actually, a simpler way would be to make the rules about what can be considered a 501(c)(3) organization (a charity that qualifies for tax-deductible donations) more stringent.

Don't change the incentive to support charities - make charities act like actual charities.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8815 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/27/2007 9:49 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
"Actually, a simpler way would be to make the rules about what can be considered a 501(c)(3) organization (a charity that qualifies for tax-deductible donations) more stringent.

Don't change the incentive to support charities - make charities act like actual charities. "

That's not so easy.

My local ham radio club is a 501c 'organization'. We have a little auction each year...some donated gear..some on consignment...make about $100/yr. In addition, 'dues' are $1000 a year for all the members...which gets spend on the newsletter and other club functions such as emergency preparedness, classes for newcomers, etc.

No 'orgnaization' would like to lose the tax exempt status and have to file 'corporation' taxes...have a 'corporate lawyer' to handle the 'annual registration' and pay the 'annual corporate tax' in TX which would take half the budget or more each year.

Same for teh local accordion clubs, which are 501c organizations....

Dues aren't deductible, but if you 'donate' $50 toward a scholarship for people wanting to learn to play...that is deductible, and not 'income' to the organization that is taxed at corporate rates.

Imagine the headaches.

However, if you go to a Fair Tax, you don't have to worry about that.

But do allow small organizations to have 501c like status so they can get 'corporate status' for liability purposes......without the hassles of 'full corporate' registration and annual taxes/registration fees.

t.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8816 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/27/2007 12:01 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
No 'orgnaization' would like to lose the tax exempt status and have to file 'corporation' taxes...have a 'corporate lawyer' to handle the 'annual registration' and pay the 'annual corporate tax' in TX which would take half the budget or more each year.

I think there should be a distinction between clubs like yours - and I do agree that the paying the taxes would be a real issue for associations like that - and true charitable institutions.

There's also a difference between "not for profit" institutions (and donations to those groups are NOT tax-deductible), and "nonprofit" organizations.

Essentially, we're talking about the incentive of the individual taxpayer to give to charities, not just because they believe in the mission of the organization, but because they have a tax incentive as a giver to do so.

But do allow small organizations to have 501c like status so they can get 'corporate status' for liability purposes......without the hassles of 'full corporate' registration and annual taxes/registration fees.

This I would agree with. What bothers me is "charities" that misrepresent themselves as helping others, when in fact, only a small percentage of the donations go to helping "others."

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8941 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 12:41 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
SP: I find it interesting that sofaking6, one of our leading advocates of atheism here, should reach out for a Jewish identity with such confidence. Why is that, one wonders?


She doesn't recognize God. God doubtless doesn't recognize her. There is no unique Jewish race or ethnicity. So where does her sense of Jewish identity come from?

...

But really, sofaking6, I wouldn't argue for both your atheism and your Jewish identity on the same thread. Preserve a little consistancy.



I've got to chime in on the "you don't know what you're talking about" line. Stating that one is Jewish can mean either religion or culture. I am Jewish. I identify myself as Jewish. My friends and family would say I'm Jewish. I do not, however, practice Judaism.

Perhaps to someone who isn't Jewish, this is inconsistant. My understanding is that LorenCobb is an athiest Quaker. That, to me, is much more confusing. (No disrespect intended to LorenCobb. I just don't know enough about what a Quaker is to understand how those two views go together.)

But to be Jewish and be an athiest, or even be a Jewish Buddhist, isn't inconsistant at all. My grandfather had 3 children. My father is a Jewish athiest, his sister is a Jewish Christian, his brother is an Reform Jew. They are all Jewish and would be surprised if anyone claimed they weren't.


ariechert: But, since Jews come in every race, shape, color, nationality, politics, and even belief system it sure as heck is no longer a race or religion. Ethiopian Jews look typically African. Chinese Jews are indistinguishable from other Chinese, and most European and Russian Jews don't look all that much different than the rest of the population.

People from other races and religions have converted to Judaism. They are Jews by religion. Jewish people (whether religious or not) have spend millenia being kicked out of various countries, and have therefore spread throughout the world. They are Jewish by race and often (though not always) by culture.


The little Jewish PhD chemist who worked in the lab next to ours had blond hair and green eyes. He claimed he was a New York Jew. His wife and kids looked typically Jewish but he sure as heck didn't. I figure some of his ancestors had pulled a fast one on their spouses.

Just as someone with African ancestry, even if only a small percentage, may still be considered black. Even seen a black person with light skin and blue eyes? I have. And my aunt (the Jewish Christian) has 3 blonde haired children. They are all still Jewish.


Being "Jewish" can mean many things. Hair color and religious affiliation are not the deciding factors.

Frydaze1

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8942 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 12:52 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
<<Being "Jewish" can mean many things. Hair color and religious affiliation are not the deciding factors.

Frydaze1
>>



Once God chose the Jews.

Now the Jews decide whether they will choose God.


One of the consequences of religious freedom is that people are free to pick which church or religious groups appeals to them. Doesn't this mean that people are creating God in their own image, rather than the reverse?


I imagine this must be very confusing for God, who must apparently cater to the whims of every individual or be abandonned.



Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8943 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 12:53 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
People from other races and religions have converted to Judaism. They are Jews by religion. Jewish people (whether religious or not) have spend millenia being kicked out of various countries, and have therefore spread throughout the world. They are Jewish by race and often (though not always) by culture.

sometimes wonder why this is so difficult for people to grasp.

then i think it's just evidence of how UN-melting-pot US are .. apparently one can still grow to old age without ever actually talking to an actual Jewish person.

( i'd guess at least 6 different friends have 'splained this to me 7 different times )



-
...otoh ... if Jewish law says, "if your Mom is Jewish, you're Jewish" ..and bible says we're all descended from Joan of Ark (Mrs. Noah) .. doesn't that mean everyone is Jewish?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8948 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 8:45 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I imagine this must be very confusing for God, who must apparently cater to the whims of every individual or be abandonned.

Seattle Pioneer
---------------------

God is confused?

We are surely in trouble now.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8954 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 11:05 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
Once God chose the Jews.

Now the Jews decide whether they will choose God.


SP,

Doesn't EVERYONE decide whether they will choose G-d? In fact, isn't that the basis of Christianity: that without the free-will choice to follow Jesus, you will not get into heaven?


One of the consequences of religious freedom is that people are free to pick which church or religious groups appeals to them. Doesn't this mean that people are creating God in their own image, rather than the reverse?

And again, you've completely missed what I was trying to tell you. Being Jewish doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion. You're so busy harping on your one string that you can't hear anything else. One can be born Jewish just as one can be born Irish - and no visit to Ireland is required in order to claim to be Irish.

I think you are trying to recreate Jews in the image of what you think they ought to be.


I imagine this must be very confusing for God, who must apparently cater to the whims of every individual or be abandonned.

Where does any of this place demands on G-d from Jews? Jews may worship or not, just as anyone else may. Are you claiming that an athiest Jew is demanding that the god (s)he doesn't believe in has to cater to something? I am nearly 100% sure that athiests, whether Jewish or not, aren't asking G-d for anything.

And since you aren't an athiest, your sentence is even more disturbing. Any god who can be confused by his own creation isn't much of a god. And any god who caters to individuals for fear of being abandoned isn't either. Do you honestly worship something you have so little respect for?


Frydaze1

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8955 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 11:09 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
...otoh ... if Jewish law says, "if your Mom is Jewish, you're Jewish" ..and bible says we're all descended from Joan of Ark (Mrs. Noah) .. doesn't that mean everyone is Jewish?

The bible doesn't say that Mrs. Noah was Jewish. The creation of the nation of Israel (the people called Jews) happens long after the flood.

Frydaze1

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8956 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 11:12 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
And since you aren't an athiest, your sentence is even more disturbing.

SP may not be an athiest, but he is an atheist. A lot of posters here don't seem to realize that, and it makes their arguments with him a little nonsensical at times.

sydsydsyd

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8957 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 11:18 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
SP may not be an athiest, but he is an atheist. A lot of posters here don't seem to realize that, and it makes their arguments with him a little nonsensical at times.

How does that paragraph manage to be so confusing and yet clarify things anyway?

Thanks,
Frydaze1

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8959 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 11:22 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
The creation of the nation of Israel (the people called Jews) happens long after the flood.

Just to clarify: the nation of Israel are the people descended from the man called Israel. It has nothing to do with the patch of dirt people are bombing eachother over.

There's Israel and Israel. Just as there is Jewish and Jewish.

Makes perfect sense now, right? ;-)

Frydaze1

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8960 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 11:28 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
How does that paragraph manage to be so confusing and yet clarify things anyway?

If you're confused about the first sentence, I was being a smartass and correcting your spelling of "atheist" - you might have to squint a bit because of the TMF font.

sydsydsyd

Print the post Back To Top
Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8962 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 11:54 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
<<And since you aren't an athiest, your sentence is even more disturbing.

SP may not be an athiest, but he is an atheist. A lot of posters here don't seem to realize that, and it makes their arguments with him a little nonsensical at times.

sydsydsyd

>>


That's true. I simply have a good deal of respect for the functions and practical utility that religion has in human society. A lot of atheists seem to want to stomp on religion, but I worry a lot more about what would likely replace conventional religions were they to go away.


I'm perfectly happy to have rel;igious people soldiering away, making the wide variety of contributions to society that they often do. I'd be glad to see more religion rather than less in the United States, or at least around here in Seattle, which has about the lowest rate of church membership of anywhere in the country.




Seattle Pioneer

Print the post Back To Top
Author: tenworlds Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8967 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 12:35 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
That's true. I simply have a good deal of respect for the functions and practical utility that religion has in human society. A lot of atheists seem to want to stomp on religion,...
-----
I think it'd be fair to say that most atheists would just like religion to stop its stomping all over everything that isn't religious. Including atheists.



...but I worry a lot more about what would likely replace conventional religions were they to go away.
-----
http://www.secularhumanism.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism



I'm perfectly happy to have rel;igious people soldiering away, making the wide variety of contributions to society that they often do. I'd be glad to see more religion rather than less in the United States, or at least around here in Seattle, which has about the lowest rate of church membership of anywhere in the country.
Seattle Pioneer

-----
You'd probably really like Iran then.






ten

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8976 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 1:11 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
...otoh ... if Jewish law says, "if your Mom is Jewish, you're Jewish" ..and bible says we're all descended from Joan of Ark (Mrs. Noah) .. doesn't that mean everyone is Jewish?

The bible doesn't say that Mrs. Noah was Jewish. The creation of the nation of Israel (the people called Jews) happens long after the flood.



o.


=b

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8977 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 1:14 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Just to clarify: the nation of Israel are the people descended from the man called Israel. It has nothing to do with the patch of dirt people are bombing eachother over.

There's Israel and Israel. Just as there is Jewish and Jewish.

Makes perfect sense now, right? ;-)



not perfect ..but almost.


=

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8978 of 63325
Subject: Re: Christianized Medicine Date: 7/30/2007 1:16 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
If you're confused about the first sentence, I was being a smartass and correcting your spelling of "atheist" - you might have to squint a bit because of the TMF font.

Ah ha! Thanks again. "Atheist", "tomorrow" and "necessary" are words I always have trouble spelling. There are a few more, but I just avoid writing them. ;-)

Frydaze1

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (114) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement