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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 22714  
Subject: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Israel Date: 10/4/2012 10:58 PM
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http://washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/thousands-of-chr...

Opening paragraph:
"JERUSALEM — Waving blue and white Israeli flags, thousands of evangelical Christians from around the world filled streets of downtown Jerusalem on Thursday in a show of support for the Jewish state."
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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22086 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/5/2012 1:00 AM
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I wonder why they are demonstrating in Jerusalem rather than in Megiddo?

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Author: Tuni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22087 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/5/2012 10:16 AM
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yeah, best friends until....... :(

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22088 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/5/2012 12:47 PM
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When does the next Crusade start?

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Author: Tuni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22089 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/5/2012 1:59 PM
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I think right after the "Rapture" is firmly established. ;)

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22090 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/5/2012 2:11 PM
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And you'd rather they not come and support the country at all?

silencer

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22091 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/5/2012 2:29 PM
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yeah, best friends until....... :(

Until what?

The article mentions something that concerns some:
Many Israelis are troubled by what they suspect is the source of the unqualified support — a belief by some evangelical groups in an apocalyptic battle between good and evil in which Jesus returns, and Jews either accept Christianity or perish.

Is that what worries you?

It doesn't worry me, because I don't believe in their mythology. Jesus wasn't the messiah and there won't be a 2nd coming. Presumably, you don't believe that either, so what's the problem?

Also note that the Christian supporters of Israel don't require Jews to agree with them; that's why the article uses the word "unqualified" to describe their support.

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Author: Tuni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22092 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/5/2012 2:39 PM
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yes, Steven - have a long-standing question in my own mind (a result of some bad experiences with Evangelical very close "friends").

I don't buy their line, of course, I don't share those beliefs however, I fear the "real" truth behind their support.

It may be appropriate to consider this quote:

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".
Sun-tzu (there's some question about the true origins of the quote)
Chinese general & military strategist (~400 BC)

When you say that the Christian supporters of Israel don't require......
Perhaps my perspective is different than yours.....it may not be required NOW or even in the near future however it is certainly the mantra of those who truly believe in the eventual conversion of the Jews after their Messiah "reappears"......

Hopefully, you are correct and I am overly concerned/suspicious/whatever...of their "support" and "motivation."

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22093 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/6/2012 2:21 PM
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Is that what worries you?

No. The problem with this support is that it is motivated by religious extremism. It is support for antagonism between Jews and Muslims. It is support for the Israel that seeks to oppress and ultimately expel the Muslims from the country rather than make peace with them.

Elan

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22094 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/7/2012 5:04 PM
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It may be appropriate to consider this quote:

"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".


Do you consider Christian Zionists to be friends or enemies?

however it is certainly the mantra of those who truly believe in the eventual conversion of the Jews after their Messiah "reappears"......

If they said they would support Israel "Until Jesus comes back," I'd consider that the same as if they said they'd support Israel forever.

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22095 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/8/2012 9:40 AM
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however it is certainly the mantra of those who truly believe in the eventual conversion of the Jews after their Messiah "reappears"......

If they said they would support Israel "Until Jesus comes back," I'd consider that the same as if they said they'd support Israel forever.


but they wouldn't, since they believe he is coming and maybe even soon ... and if some charismatic false messiah figure arose and gathered enough followers, then their doctrine basically says convert or die ....

Christian Zionists, in their 'love' for Israel, usually kind of gloss over that little point.

we've seen false messiahs before ... Shabtai Zevi, Jacob Franck ... David Koresh .... Adolf Hitler. They aren't rare, and with frenzy in this generations evangelizing Christians, I'm expecting one any moment.


Dov

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22096 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/8/2012 2:23 PM
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we've seen false messiahs before ...

The whole idea of a messiah is false.

Elan

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22099 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/10/2012 2:02 PM
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The whole idea of a messiah is false.

Whether it's true or false is irrelevant. If enough people believe it is true, they may eventually act on that belief.

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22116 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/22/2012 12:27 AM
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we've seen false messiahs before ... Shabtai Zevi, Jacob Franck ... David Koresh .... Adolf Hitler.

So far as I know, the latter two never proclaimed themselves to be the Messiah.

And the former two were both Jewish, not Christian.

False messiahs aren't rare, but I'm not aware of any (since Jesus) who have managed to gain a large number of followers.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22117 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/22/2012 10:06 AM
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False messiahs aren't rare, but I'm not aware of any (since Jesus) who have managed to gain a large number of followers.

Shabtai Zvi had many followers.

silencer

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22118 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/22/2012 10:52 AM
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we've seen false messiahs before ... Shabtai Zevi, Jacob Franck ... David Koresh .... Adolf Hitler.

So far as I know, the latter two never proclaimed themselves to be the Messiah.

And the former two were both Jewish, not Christian.

False messiahs aren't rare, but I'm not aware of any (since Jesus) who have managed to gain a large number of followers.



of course Hitler and the others were false Messiahs ... whether they proclaimed themselves as such or not, or whether they were Jewish or not hardly matters ... the utter devotion of their followers tells you all you need to know.

don't think it can't happen in Israel, or the United States. Messiahs, false and otherwise, are most fervently wished for during the worst of times. These are not (yet) the worst of times, but the trends are pretty ominous. along comes a man with a slick tongue on his white horse, and the desparate, stupid, and naive will start goose stepping in 4/4 time.


Dov

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Author: stevenjklein Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22119 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/22/2012 12:54 PM
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Shabtai Zvi had many followers.

I couldn't find any numbers, but I'd be surprised if the number of his followers equalled even 0.1% of the Jewish population at that time.

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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22120 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/22/2012 2:38 PM
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I couldn't find any numbers, but I'd be surprised if the number of his followers equalled even 0.1% of the Jewish population at that time.


That's way off. He had 1/3 of the european jewish communities as followers including entire jewish areas. The fallout was so severe that kabbalists after him (including the Ramchal and others) had a severely difficult time teaching, and often had to leave their communities. It also played into the Misnagdim and their opposition to the chasidic movement.

American jewish life magazine says:

"Within twelve months, Shabbetai Tzvi counted among his followers more than one third of the European Jewish community. People left their homes, sold their belongings, and awaited the reconquest of Israel. Entire communities were overturned, with Shabbatean leaders replacing traditional ones. In fulfillment of Kabbalistic prophecies, fast days were turned to feast days, and certain ritual laws annulled. Indeed, not to believe in Shabbetai Tzvi was regarded, in many communities, as a lack of faith.
"

silencer

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Author: elann Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22121 of 22714
Subject: Re: Christians rally in Jerusalem to support Isr Date: 10/22/2012 5:15 PM
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That's way off.

I agree. It's estimated that there were about 1 million Jews in the world in that period (the 17th century). Tzvi's followers probably numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

Elan

P.S. There is no such thing as a real messiah and there never will be. It's all a fiction.

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