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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 63267  
Subject: Civil War Date: 4/4/2011 11:02 PM
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Just watched the second part of the Civil War by Ken Burns. He is one masterful film maker.

I am quite vexed at McClellan and Lincoln. McClellan was an idiot and should have been shot early in the Civil War. Lincoln should have shot him.

The letter of Sullivan Ballou was read on last night's show.
Here is a link to it -- well worth reading, even if you have already seen Ken Burns' Civil War film -- http://www.pbs.org/civilwar/war/ballou_letter.html

All in all the Civil War was pretty much a disaster on both sides. It lasted 3 years longer than it should have.

• More than three million men fought in the war.
• Two percent of the population—more than 620,000—died in it.
• In two days at Shiloh on the banks of the Tennessee River, more Americans fell than in all previous American wars combined.
• During the Battle of Antietam, 12,401 Union men were killed, missing or wounded; double the casualties of D-Day, 82 years later. With a total of 23,000 casualties on both sides, it was the bloodiest single day of the Civil War. (Historians believe that if McClellan had advanced on Lee one day sooner the war would have been over.)
• At Cold Harbor, Va., 7,000 Americans fell in 20 minutes.
• North and South, potential recruits were offered awards, or "bounties," for enlisting, as much as $677 in New York. Bounty jumping soon became a profession, as men signed up, then deserted, to enlist again elsewhere. One man repeated the process 32 times before being caught. (Does this mean that fraud is not a new invention no matter what tele thinks???)
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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32117 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/4/2011 11:25 PM
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All in all the Civil War was pretty much a disaster on both sides. It lasted 3 years longer than it should have.



all wars i think last at least three years longer than they should.

but it's only obvious after the fact and maybe ,even then only to the winners.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32123 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 12:27 AM
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Was there a strategy that would have won for the south?


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32125 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 12:38 AM
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"Two percent of the population—more than 620,000—died in it.
• In two days at Shiloh on the banks of the Tennessee River, more Americans fell than in all previous American wars combined.
• During the Battle of Antietam, 12,401 Union men were killed, missing or wounded; double the casualties of D-Day, 82 years later. With a total of 23,000 casualties on both sides, it was the bloodiest single day of the Civil War. (Historians believe that if McClellan had advanced on Lee one day sooner the war would have been over.)
• At Cold Harbor, Va., 7,000 Americans fell in 20 minutes."

--------------------------------------------------------------


War is a great way to experience separation. What it means and how it feels to be separate. Losing someone you love is the most emotional thing we have to experience. Nothing else comes close and since there is a connection between emotion and memory the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

Another words it happens on purpose. There are no coincidences and everything happens for a reason.

Artie

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32126 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 1:32 AM
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. . . everything happens for a reason.

I don't even understand what that means.

Today I was mowing the lawn and after mowing for awhile, I had to stop. The second time I had to start the mower I had to pull the cord three times. Normally, it only takes one pull. What possible reason and whose reason was behind that?

I went to pick up my truck from being repaired today and they forgot to give me my keys. After I walked out to the truck and found no keys in it, I had to walk back to the office and request my keys. What possible reason and whose reason was behind that?

I could go on like this forever.

Everything happens for a reason? . . . Phttttt. Everything? Whose reason?

The only things that happen for a reason are things people do with motive. Those things happen because those people are motivated to make them happen.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32127 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 1:33 AM
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Was there a strategy that would have won for the south?


not that i can thing of ... not really.

(i grew up in the West, so we didn't study it much in school ..i distinctly remember spending more time in US History on the Invasion of Normandy than the Civil War ...probably because the teacher was wounded in the hedgerows)

partly depends what you mean by 'win' and 'south' ...


best i can think of they should have delayed fighting as long as possible..

the North had overwhelming numbers and nearly all the industry ..with a delay they could maybe build up industry and alliances with Europe

so they shouldn't have fired on Sumter


they also shouldn't have taken Texas (and maybe Ark, La, & Fla) ..if they wanted to delay .. couple years ago i read Grant's autobiography and he said (and probably many in the north agreed) he felt it should have been legal for any of the original 13 to secede ,but that Texas had been won with "Union blood" ..friends of his, so it had to be kept in the Union.

but everything i've read argues war was inevitable --over slavery and/or the western territories.


=

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32128 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 1:37 AM
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I don't even understand what that means.

Today I was mowing the lawn and after mowing for awhile, I had to stop. The second time I had to start the mower I had to pull the cord three times. Normally, it only takes one pull. What possible reason and whose reason was behind that?


what was the Temp?

my guess at the reason: after mowing a while, you and the mower were a little bit tired and over-heated ..so your usual pull wasn't strong enough.


=b

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32129 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 1:39 AM
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Was there a strategy that would have won for the south?


Based on my experience living in North Carolina for several years, many in the South do not acknowledge that the war is over yet - or at least not over forever. The rise in power of T-bagger fundamentalists is a point in favor of this opinion.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32130 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 1:56 AM
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what was the Temp?

my guess at the reason: after mowing a while, you and the mower were a little bit tired and over-heated ..so your usual pull wasn't strong enough.


No. I had only been mowing about 5 minutes and it was not hot plus there was a nice breeze. I was in the shade of one of my orange trees. I mowed for about two hours and stopped and started the mower 3 or 4 times after that. It only took one pull every time but that once.

But imagine for a minute that you could find a mechanical explanation. For every explanation, there is only another question about the reason for that relationship.

Everything happens for a reason? I say: Prove it.

A small twig has been resting on my patio roof and hanging over the edge just enough for me to see it for several days. Today, it finally fell off the roof and onto the ground. I picked it up and threw it in my green bin. What was the reason that happened today? Whose reason was it?

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32131 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 1:57 AM
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Based on my experience living in North Carolina for several years, many in the South do not acknowledge that the war is over yet - or at least not over forever. The rise in power of T-bagger fundamentalists is a point in favor of this opinion.


just curious ..when were you there?

i got the same feeling from guys from the South when i was in the Army (71), but when i've mentioned it to southern friends, they say, "o Noes ..not like that anymore"

[in fact, one of my favorite long boring stories ...

unit i was in was all college-educated and mostly drafted .. evenings, after going to the E-club and getting drunk, we'd play board games ..

one of the games was a simulation of Gettysburg ... a guy from the north who knew his history would take the Union and various guys from the south would take Lee. Union (as in actual history) would always win .. One time i took Lee ..and won.
From there on, i was "honorary colonel, CSA" and couldn't buy a beer if any of the southerners were around...

(no big deal really .. they all knew what actually happened and i had no idea ..so the northern guy mostly just followed what the Union general had done and the southern guys the same .. Lee had lost, but he was a god, so he MUST have had the right idea. whereas i, know-nothing, went off on some wild-ass tangent that completely confused the northern guy ..)

fun times
]

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32132 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 2:04 AM
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A small twig has been resting on my patio roof and hanging over the edge just enough for me to see it for several days. Today, it finally fell off the roof and onto the ground. I picked it up and threw it in my green bin. What was the reason that happened today?

"nice breeze" ?


Whose reason was it?

i forget the name of the Goddess of Nice Breezes



(>,

[ but i agree ..any mechanical explanation will raise another question .. following a causal chain that goes back either to the Big Bang or the intervention of some whimsical Goddess --if that doesn't satisfy you, i can't help you ]

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32133 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 2:18 AM
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I left North Carolina in '84, but I still have many very close friends there and also in Florida and Georgia. And I have continued to spend significant time in the South. I'll spend the week in Tampa next week and have spent significant time in Atlanta, Raleigh, and New Orleans in the past year.

Most of my professional colleagues who live in the South do not refer to the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression, nor do they talk about the South rising again. Of course many of them are not even originally from the South. But when I travel, I have a tendency to stray from the university campuses and corporate offices that pay me to come and visit. I almost always tack on several days of time to my visits to explore and experience the culture on my own. You really don't have to get very far away from the tall buildings and freeways to experience a very different culture from downtown Atlanta or Raleigh or New Orleans or Tampa or ...

By the way, this is no different than almost any other region or country I've visited. Last October I spent a few weeks in Egypt. The differences in the culture and attitudes of Cairo office workers vs the farmers only a few dozen miles outside the city is staggering. The only place I've ever visited where this observation does not seem to hold would be Easter Island. There is only one village there with about 800 people living there. It seemed like a pretty homogeneous culture as far as I could tell from a two week visit.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32134 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 2:27 AM
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if that doesn't satisfy you, i can't help you ]

I've been beyond help for years.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32135 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 2:37 AM
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if that doesn't satisfy you, i can't help you ]

-----------
I've been beyond help for years.


then likely that ,like me, you've learned it's no hindrance to a contented Life.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32136 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 2:42 AM
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But when I travel, I have a tendency to stray from the university campuses and corporate offices that pay me to come and visit. I almost always tack on several days of time to my visits to explore and experience the culture on my own. You really don't have to get very far away from the tall buildings and freeways to experience a very different culture from downtown Atlanta or Raleigh or New Orleans or Tampa or ...



ah yes......

(when i drove x-country in 2000, i took a few backroads ..didn't often stop, but one in Miss. stuck in my mind: beautiful green country .. every couple hundred yards --a trailer, one or three pickups, all with Confederate flags

)


The only place I've ever visited where this observation does not seem to hold would be Easter Island. There is only one village there with about 800 people living there. It seemed like a pretty homogeneous culture as far as I could tell from a two week visit.


probably lots easier to be homogeneous when it's just 800 people stuck on an island ...

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32138 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 8:04 AM
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Based on my experience living in North Carolina for several years, many in the South do not acknowledge that the war is over yet - or at least not over forever. The rise in power of T-bagger fundamentalists is a point in favor of this opinion.
---------------------
just curious ..when were you there?

i got the same feeling from guys from the South when i was in the Army (71), but when i've mentioned it to southern friends, they say, "o Noes ..not like that anymore"
-------------------
I live in the south and have almost exclusively since 1963. I was born in Chicago. I think the answer whether the war is over: it depends on where in the south -- small town or big city -- and probably age. My boss in the 1980s celebrated confederate memorial day (he's about 75 now) but he wasn't obnoxious about his heritage. When I lived in a very small town NE of Athens, Ga the people there thought of everybody as outsiders if they weren't from there--one person told me she had lived there 40 years and still was not accepted as one of them. When we first moved down here, it was to Atlanta, Ga and I don't remember being around a lot of strong southern heritage types (for one thing I believe a lot of that type in Atlanta are the richer, more affluent neighborhoods which does not describe our life). But you can definitely still find people who will say stupid things like "When the federal gov't gets too big, we can just secede from the union." -- sound familiar Texans?

And BTW the tea party is not just southern. Sarah Palin is Alaskan through and through. I think a good bit of the Alaskan population believes they could make it on their own and would prefer to be separated from the US. More power to them.

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32151 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 9:55 AM
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"Today I was mowing the lawn and after mowing for awhile, I had to stop. The second time I had to start the mower I had to pull the cord three times. Normally, it only takes one pull. What possible reason and whose reason was behind that?

I went to pick up my truck from being repaired today and they forgot to give me my keys. After I walked out to the truck and found no keys in it, I had to walk back to the office and request my keys. What possible reason and whose reason was behind that?

I could go on like this forever." - salaryguru

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe this Earth life is a school and we are here for three simple little reasons all of which are related with one another and have to do with the physical laws of the "other side" being different than "this side."

We are here to experience duality and separation, time and space, and imprint memories of what it was like and how it feels to inhabit or limited by the parameters of a physical body.

When you had to pull the cord three times on your lawnmower you were experiencing and learning about time and space. Distance, motion, limits, etc. The slight frustration you felt imprinted that memory on your consciousness so you would remember it.

The key episode is a simple little lesson in separation. In this case being separated from your keys! The little bit of emotion you felt was enough to cause you to remember that lesson.

Even the simplest things in life teach us about what it is like to be limited to or inside a physical body and all the silly little things we do while we go about our daily lives, like dropping a knife while washing dishes, teach us about motion, time and space, and what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.

Heaven is a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality. The problem is that it is also a place where nothing exists unless it is first thought of. But before you can create something you have to have some idea of what you want to see or create. You can't learn to drive a car without actually getting behind the wheel of a car and driving it. You can't learn to ride a bike without climbing on one and riding it. In order to feel the parameters of the car, where the bumpers are and the edges of the car you have experience it. Just reading a book about it or watching a video or even watching someone else drive a car isn't enough. You have to drive the car yourself to learn how to drive one.

From the moment we are born and separate from our mothers and the umbilical cord is cut in two life is one big long lesson in what it means and how it feels to be separate and young babies start learning how to manipulate their bodies and exploring the universe around them and then when we die our deaths become a lesson in separation to the loved ones we leave behind.


Artie

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32152 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 9:57 AM
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"A small twig has been resting on my patio roof and hanging over the edge just enough for me to see it for several days. Today, it finally fell off the roof and onto the ground. I picked it up and threw it in my green bin. What was the reason that happened today? Whose reason was it?" - salaryguru

--------------------------------

It is a lesson in time and space and what it is like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.

Artie

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32164 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 12:19 PM
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<<Was there a strategy that would have won for the south?


not that i can thing of ... not really.>>



My theory is that the Missouri Compromise and such delayed a decisive showdown over "states rights" for ten or twenty perhaps critical years.

Those years weakened the south on a relative basis and increased railroads, steam ships, iron smelting, population and industry in ways that greatly strengthened the north.

Had secession happened in 1840 or 1850 under a southern President, it might have happened peacefully, avoiding a war over "saving the union."

Of course the south tended to dominate the Federal government during this time and lorded it over the north with the Fugitive Slave Act, Dredd Scott decision and such. Hard to pull out when you are the big cheese.

And I would further speculate that had the Civil War been avoided for ten additional years, it also would not have happened. The strength of the north would have been too obvious.

Pure speculation of course.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32184 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 3:34 PM
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But you can definitely still find people who will say stupid things like "When the federal gov't gets too big, we can just secede from the union." -- sound familiar Texans?


not just Texans of course .. i've been arguing for breaking off Calif. for years .

(have "Civil War" on in the background .. just heard that Gov. Sam Houston (THE Sam Houston!) was deposed because he was against secession)



And BTW the tea party is not just southern. Sarah Palin is Alaskan through and through. I think a good bit of the Alaskan population believes they could make it on their own and would prefer to be separated from the US. More power to them.


mostly true ..but a big Southern influence in parts of the NW -- during the Civil Rights changes of the 60s, a fairly serious migration of whites out of the South and into places like Idaho, Dakota, Alaska
(& ,iirc, during reconstruction, semi-serious migration to Oregon and Washington)


.. be a little bit sad if Alaska left ... they'd likely fish the N.Pacific to death and drill for Oil all over ...

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Author: TellsTheTruth Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32205 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 6:25 PM
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Was there a strategy that would have won for the south?



Yes. Promising to abolish slavery.

Regards, TTT.
---------------------------------------------------


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32210 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/5/2011 8:13 PM
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<<Was there a strategy that would have won for the south?



Yes. Promising to abolish slavery.

Regards, TTT. >>



I seem to remember reading that some southern leader suggested that exactly that should have been done ---- and then seceding from the union.


Perhaps that would have been a good strategy, but I can't imagine that it could have happened. n The south had a stranglehold on slavery.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32225 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 1:04 AM
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I believe this Earth life is a school and we are here for three simple little reasons...

I don't. That sounds silly to me. Also, I see absolutely no indication it is true.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32226 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 1:06 AM
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It is a lesson in time and space and what it is like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe.

That's ridiculous. I knew it was going to happen and what kind of events might make it happen. I didn't learn a lesson in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe. And who do you think was preparing this lesson for me?

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32231 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 10:13 AM
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"I don't. That sounds silly to me. Also, I see absolutely no indication it is true." - salaryguru



LOL! When you were in school your teachers never asked you if you believed it was true or not. Whether you believe them or not was irrelevant. The teachers presented the information and it was downloaded into your brain and when the time came you regurgitated it on a test.

It's called holistic learning. Life's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and we learn and experience what we are supposed to learn whether we want to or not.

Belief is irrelevant, acceptance is irrelevant, agreement is irrelevant. You will experience duality and separation, time and space, and make memories of what it was like to be limited by a physical body and live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe whether you want to or not.

- Artie

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 10:16 AM
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"That's ridiculous. I knew it was going to happen and what kind of events might make it happen. I didn't learn a lesson in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe. And who do you think was preparing this lesson for me?" - salaryguru


You know what's interesting? It turns out that arguing and disagreeing on message boards is an excellent way to experience duality and separation. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

The only way you can opt out of experiencing duality and separation, time and space, and making memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe is by dying.

We'll see after our physical bodies die who was right and who was wrong.

Artie

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32236 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 10:37 AM
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"And who do you think was preparing this lesson for me?" - salaryguru


I had to go away and think about this question. Are you wanting a name? I'm not sure how to answer your question? I can only present what I believe to be true? Physicists and near death experiencers say the same thing. They all paint the same picture. They all say the same thing.

We live in some kind of strange holographic reality where everything is connected and our separateness is an illusion. When people cross over they feel totally connected and one with the Universe. And as to what that means I'm not exactly sure. I'm not sure anyone that lives in this physical universe can really comprehend or understand the oneness and connectedness on the other side?

"I remember understanding the others here, as if the others here were a part of me too. As if all of it was just a vast expression of me. But it wasn't just me, it was .. gosh this is so hard to explain.. it was as if we were all the same. As if consciousness were like a huge being. The easiest way to explain it would be like all things are all different parts of the same body." - excerpt from Michelle M's NDE,
http://www.nderf.org/michelle_m's_nde.htm

"And it became very clear to me that all the Higher Selves are connected as one being, all humans are connected as one being, we are actually the same being, different aspects of the same being." - excerpt from Mellen Benedict's NDE, http://near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html

"So, for a moment, you see. Relax. Don't take yourself so seriously! All is well. We are forever one."
- excerpt from Riding the Dragon, Dr. Taudo's experience, from Transcendental Experiences of Scientists,
http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00070...

"I had the realization that I was everywhere at the same time...and I mean everywhere. I knew that everything is perfect and happening according to some divine plan, regardless of all the things we see as wrong with the world." - excerpt from Carl Turner's experience,
http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/dreamsvisions-kund...

Artie

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32251 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 3:29 PM
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LOL! When you were in school your teachers never asked you if you believed it was true or not.

I'm not in school and you aren't my teacher.

Whether you believe them or not was irrelevant. The teachers presented the information and it was downloaded into your brain and when the time came you regurgitated it on a test.

Maybe that's the way inferior thinkers and mediocre students did it. But not me and not real thinkers.

It's called holistic learning. Life's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and we learn and experience what we are supposed to learn whether we want to or not.

You can call it anything you want. It doesn't make it legitimate, logical or real.

Belief is irrelevant, acceptance is irrelevant, agreement is irrelevant. You will experience duality and separation, time and space, and make memories of what it was like to be limited by a physical body and live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe whether you want to or not.

If belief is irrelevant, then I choose not to believe. I will stick to facts and reject such nonsense. Art. "Duality and Separation" is BS. Repeating that mantra only makes the case that you are an illogical wacko. There are no facts to back your religious belief and it only clutters your life with unessential garbage.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32252 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 3:35 PM
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You know what's interesting? It turns out that arguing and disagreeing on message boards is an excellent way to experience duality and separation. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

Spoken like a true con artist. "Duality and separation" are nothing more than meaningless blather. You might as well replace that mantra with "Goo goo and ga ga". The mantra has no meaning or significance to anyone but the true believers who have chosen to reject logical thought and replace it with con words. Then, if anyone dares to question it or to point out that it is meaningless, kindly explain that this is only proof that Goo goo and ga ga are at work.

The only way you can opt out of experiencing duality and separation, time and space, and making memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe is by dying.

Let's try my example here: The only way you can opt out of experiencing Goo goo and ga ga, time and space, and making memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe is by dying.

Yep. It carries just as much meaning as your original statement.

We'll see after our physical bodies die who was right and who was wrong.

Nope. We'll be dead.

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32256 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 4:11 PM
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I don't. That sounds silly to me. Also, I see absolutely no indication it is true." - salaryguru
----------
LOL! When you were in school your teachers never asked you if you believed it was true or not. Whether you believe them or not was irrelevant. The teachers presented the information and it was downloaded into your brain and when the time came you regurgitated it on a test.

It's called holistic learning. Life's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and we learn and experience what we are supposed to learn whether we want to or not.

Belief is irrelevant, acceptance is irrelevant, agreement is irrelevant. You will experience duality and separation, time and space, and make memories of what it was like to be limited by a physical body and live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe whether you want to or not.

- Artie
----------

Resistance is futile...

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32257 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 4:13 PM
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"That's ridiculous. I knew it was going to happen and what kind of events might make it happen. I didn't learn a lesson in a 3 dimensional + 1 time universe. And who do you think was preparing this lesson for me?" - salaryguru

-----------------
You know what's interesting? It turns out that arguing and disagreeing on message boards is an excellent way to experience duality and separation. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

The only way you can opt out of experiencing duality and separation, time and space, and making memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe is by dying.

We'll see after our physical bodies die who was right and who was wrong.

Artie
---------------------
By then he won't care....he'll be enjoying the other side and this side will all seem like a dream.

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Author: lindytoes Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32258 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 4:15 PM
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Good stuff Art...copied and pasted for book.

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32259 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 4:27 PM
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lindylib:"Good stuff Art...copied and pasted for book. "

everything on the MF is copy righted. YOu can't use for a book unless you have permission on every single post.

But you knew that, right?

t.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32261 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 4:37 PM
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I had to go away and think about this question.

But you don't answer it. That's a serious problem for your position.

Are you wanting a name? I'm not sure how to answer your question

You can make up a name - Zorglops, or the Giant Spaghetti Monster or Baby Jeebus or ... Obviously a name has no meaning by itself. You imply someone or something is teaching me a lesson. Not just me, but is teaching all 6.7 Trillion people on the face of the earth a lesson every second of every day. Whewwww. That's got to be tough. And it clearly requires some sort of incredible capacity for planning and insight. I just wonder about that twig on my roof. It was there for several days. I noticed it more than once. And this thing - the Spaghetti Monster or Zorglops or whatever you decide to call it - this incredible thing conducted my attention to it over and over again then coaxed just the right breeze one day so that I would learn a lesson. . . And in the meantime over that period of time it was making every other experience in my life contribute to another lesson .... And all the while it was doing the same thing for 6.7 Trillion other people. Does Zorglops do this for animals too? Or are they only part of our lessons?

So when I ask 'who", I'm not really interested in a name. I'm interested in the underlying characteristics of this thing that is making every experience of all 6.7 trillion people on the globe be a lesson. See... that's the thing about science and logic. You need to create a testable hypothesis. I don't know how you test "Then Zorglops makes 6.7 trillion people learn a lesson. Then Zorglops does it again... and again."

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:18 PM
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"There are no facts to back your religious belief and it only clutters your life with unessential garbage." - salaryguru

LOL! Wrong. If you read The Universe as a Hologram by Michael Talbot and then read Mark Horton's NDE the connection between them is striking. In order to see and understand the connection between them you have to understand what a holographic universe implies. But since belief is irrelevant you are free to go through life in ignorance if you want to. We all end up at the same place in the end anyway.

"If this doesn’t blow your socks off, then Craig Hogan, who has just been appointed director of Fermilab’s Center for Particle Astrophysics, has an even bigger shock in store: ‘If the GEO600 result is what I suspect it is, then we are all living in a giant cosmic hologram.’"
http://blogs.monografias.com/sistema-limbico-neurociencias/2...

"University of London physicist Dr. David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram."
http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

excerpt from an interview with Dr. Brian Green, PhD Physicist at Columbia University in National Geographic

"In the final chapter of your book, you suggest that the world may be a hologram. That sounds very Matrix-like."

"It's a very speculative idea that seems to, strangely enough, naturally emerge from string theory. Basically, the fundamental laws of the universe don't really operate in the environment around us. They may operate on sort of a distant bounding surface and give rise to the familiar world that we experience in much the same way that a thin piece of plastic, when illuminated correctly—if it's a hologram—can yield a three-dimensional image.

It might be that the deep laws are more like the thin piece of plastic existing on a thin bounding surface. Everything we know might be akin to a holographic projection of those distant laws."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0326_040326_...

excerpt from The Universe as a Hologram by Michael Talbot:
"If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected. The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web." http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

THE HOLOGRAPHIC BRAIN
With KARL PRIBRAM, Ph.D. Neurophysiologist from Stanford University
http://twm.co.nz/pribram.htm

Nature's Mind: the Quantum Hologram
Edgar Mitchell, Sc.D.
http://www.edmitchellapollo14.com/naturearticle.htm

Universe is only Pretending
http://www.dailycal.org/article.php?id=20361

Article from Scientific American about Holographic nature of our Universe:
http://www.crystalinks.com/holouniverse1.html

"I literally had the feeling that I was everywhere in the universe simultaneously." - excerpt from Mark Horton's NDE http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/markh.html

I had the realization that I was everywhere at the same time...and I mean everywhere." - excerpt from Carl Turner's experience,
http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/dreamsvisions-kund...

This is enough I think.

Artie

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32263 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:28 PM
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"Resistance is futile." - lindytoes


LOL! He'll be like Howard Storm and A.J. Ayers when he gets to the other side and be shocked that his consciousness still exists even though his physical body is dead. At least though he's been exposed to what might happen so when it does happen he'll think back to all my "stupid posts" and all those memories will rise to the top and maybe he won't be afraid?

A.J. Ayers was a famous atheist who debated people about the existence of the afterlife. Later on in life he had a near death experience which weakened his conviction about his former beliefs.

The same thing happened to Howard Storm who was also a self avowed atheist. Storm was fearful when he found himself outside his physical body and it changed him greatly when he came back to his body. He became a Methodist minister after his near death experience.

excerpt from A.J. Ayer's account:
"Ayer's account of his own NDE, for a man of such formidable intellect, was surprisingly similar to most of the others on record, though more elegantly observed. He wrote of "a red light for governing the universe" and some barrier he crossed, "like the River Styx." The experience, he said, "weakened my conviction that death would be the end of me, though I continue to hope it will be."

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

excerpt from Howard Storm's NDE:
Sort of relaxing and closing my eyes, I waited for the end. This was it, I felt. This was the big nothing, the big blackout, the one you never wake up from, the end of existence. I had absolute certainty that there was nothing beyond this life – because that was how really smart people understood it.

While I was undergoing this stress, prayer or anything like that never occurred to me. I never once thought about it. If I mentioned God's name at all it was only as a profanity.

For a time there was a sense of being unconscious or asleep. I'm not sure how long it lasted, but I felt really strange, and I opened my eyes. To my surprise I was standing up next to the bed, and I was looking at my body laying in the bed.

My first reaction was, "This is crazy! I can't be standing here looking down at myself. That's not possible."

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm01.html

Artie

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32264 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:32 PM
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lindylib:"Good stuff Art...copied and pasted for book. "

everything on the MF is copy righted. YOu can't use for a book unless you have permission on every single post.

But you knew that, right? - tele

--------------


I've posted the same stuff all over the internet on near death experience message boards, on Live Science, etc. Maybe it's my Asperger's syndrome singing. I keep repeating myself. Maybe it's what I'm here for? To let people know this ain't all there is?

I think the initial transition may be a little easier if people aren't afraid and maybe I feel like if I give people a heads up they won't be afraid if they find their consciousness outside their physical bodies one day?

Artie

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32265 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:32 PM
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This is enough I think.

It's not even relevant, never mind enough. Art, just because people use the world hologram to describe certain aspects of the physical universe doesn't mean your view of the world and your Goo goo Ga ga phrases are real. Based on what you write here, you really have no clue about the physics of holograms or how that physics is analogous (and more importantly, how it is not) to other aspects of the physics of the universe. Real holograms require film which records light phase and amplitude under controlled exposure situations. You never want to deal with that aspect of holograms. What is the film? How was the light exposure realized and is the result being projected?

Does the holographic universe make you nothing more than a patch of exposed film? Is that the afterlife you are shooting for? I don't see how your focusing on out of context quotes supports your nonsense thesis at all. Nor does it tie in any way to your faith based convictions about an afterlife.

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:35 PM
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Yeah... Biased collections of anecdotal accounts of unquantifiable events are not the stuff of science. Sorry, Art. This is snake oil for the feeble minded.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32267 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:38 PM
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Maybe it's what I'm here for? To let people know this ain't all there is?

You're here to con people???

I think the initial transition may be a little easier if people aren't afraid and maybe I feel like if I give people a heads up they won't be afraid if they find their consciousness outside their physical bodies one day?

Art, just because you fear dying doesn't mean others do. Just because repeating a fairy tale helps qualm your fears doesn't mean others need that myth.

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:40 PM
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"Does the holographic universe make you nothing more than a patch of exposed film? Is that the afterlife you are shooting for? I don't see how your focusing on out of context quotes supports your nonsense thesis at all. Nor does it tie in any way to your faith based convictions about an afterlife." - salaryguru


In Dr. Ken Ring's book Life At Death he devotes a whole chapter to the connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory. In Dr. Melvin Morse M.D. book Where God Lives he devotes several pages to the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe theory.

Dr. Oswald Harding, PhD wrote a whole book about the connection between NDE's and the holographic universe called Near Death Experiences: A Holographic Explanation.

And thank you for causing me so much duality and separation. My soul thanks you. <grin!>

Artie

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32269 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:41 PM
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Yeah... Biased collections of anecdotal accounts of unquantifiable events are not the stuff of science.


i had a near-death ..but the experience was very different from the 'collected anecdotes'

mentioned it to a friend who believed in NDEs *
She calmly said, "O ...then you weren't REALLY near death"

just a nother anecdote, but convinced me ...that it's all BS





* like Art, though maybe not AS rabid <g>

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:41 PM
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"Yeah... Biased collections of anecdotal accounts of unquantifiable events are not the stuff of science. Sorry, Art. This is snake oil for the feeble minded." - Salaryguru


We'll see. I'm betting not.

Artie

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 5:43 PM
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"Art, just because you fear dying doesn't mean others do. Just because repeating a fairy tale helps qualm your fears doesn't mean others need that myth." - salaryguru


You are going to be so surprised one day when you are outside your physical body and you are looking back and wondering what just happened?

Artie

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32272 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 6:04 PM
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In Dr. Ken Ring's book Life At Death he devotes a whole chapter to the connection between near death experiences and the holographic universe theory

Hmmmmm... I'm not seeing a lot of peer reviewed literature in this bio: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts04.html

In c book Where God Lives he devotes several pages to the connection between NDEs and the holographic universe theory.

This wacko??? http://www.melvinmorse.com/light.htm

And Harding??? Isn't he the nitwit Jamaican Senator and professor of Philosophy with incredibly dubious credentials?

Anyone can write a book, Art. A body of work that involves peer review and significant references to other peer reviewed work is the stuff of real researchers.

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 6:05 PM
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i had a near-death ..but the experience was very different from the 'collected anecdotes'

mentioned it to a friend who believed in NDEs *
She calmly said, "O ...then you weren't REALLY near death"

just a nother anecdote, but convinced me ...that it's all BS


Don't hold your breath waiting to be interviewed by the authors of one of the books Art references.

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Author: salaryguru Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 32274 of 63267
Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/6/2011 6:12 PM
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You are going to be so surprised one day when you are outside your physical body and you are looking back and wondering what just happened?

We're both going to die one day. We agree on that.

You can believe anything you want about what happens next. So can I.

We could also avoid constantly badgering others about our own beliefs and keep them to ourselves. I'm willing to do that if you will.

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/7/2011 1:43 AM
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<< Recommendations: 0

Maybe it's what I'm here for? To let people know this ain't all there is?

You're here to con people???

I think the initial transition may be a little easier if people aren't afraid and maybe I feel like if I give people a heads up they won't be afraid if they find their consciousness outside their physical bodies one day?

Art, just because you fear dying doesn't mean others do. Just because repeating a fairy tale helps qualm your fears doesn't mean others need that myth. >>



Salary guru may not realize it, but I think he is the reincarnation of Promethius.


Art is his Eagle who eats his liver every day.



Seattle Pioneer

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Subject: Re: Civil War Date: 4/7/2011 9:31 AM
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"Art is his Eagle who eats his liver every day."

that's got to be painful. Getting a new liver transplanted must be expensive, too...

t.

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