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Author: NoMetal Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 52500  
Subject: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/28/2009 11:30 PM
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EOM
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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41107 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/28/2009 11:34 PM
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Dang. To handcuff THAT lineup he way he did in a complete game domination (and with no earned runs), that's just flat out money. Props to Lee. That's a World Series pitching performance for the ages.

#29

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Author: Springtex Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41108 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 12:07 AM
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No, CC Sabbathia is a beast.

Cliff Lee is an artist.

/s/ S.T.

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Author: aos111 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41110 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 1:26 AM
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Have to agree with everyone that was an awesome performance.

Andy

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Author: Springtex Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41111 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 3:37 AM
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<<That's a World Series pitching performance for the ages.--29>>

Don't go overboard, 29. It's been done before. ESPN said Deacon Phillips of the Pirates also struck out 10 or more while walking none in the very first World Series in 1903.

And remember--Don Larsen threw a perfect game against the Dodgers in 1955. I saw it myself on TV. That was "for the ages".

If Cliff Lee gets another win in this series--and especially if he gets two more wins--he can be considered for ranking with the "for the ages" crowd. Perhaps we should compile a top ten list of great World Series pitching performances. For openers, I nominate Lew Burdette, who racked up 3 complete game wins (two of them shutouts, the other by 4-2) for the Braves against NY in 1957.

Then there was Mickey Lolich who also won 3 in 1968 for the Tigers against the Cardinals. Then Randy Johnson did it in 2001, but the third win was in relief--he only faced four batters--so he doesn't quite rank with Burdette and Lolich.

Also Grover Cleveland Alexander--they'll never make a movie about Cliff Lee.

Other nominations? How about Josh Beckett, for shutting out the Yankees in the Series finale to win it for the Fish? As great as Cliff Lee was tonight, don't you have to apply an "opening game factor" to this evaluation? Wouldn't a comparable performance in a seventh game outrank it?

/s/ S.T.

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41112 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 9:08 AM
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>> Don't go overboard, 29. It's been done before. ESPN said Deacon Phillips of the Pirates also struck out 10 or more while walking none in the very first World Series in 1903.

And remember--Don Larsen threw a perfect game against the Dodgers in 1955. I saw it myself on TV. That was "for the ages".
<<

Whatever you say. You're using a different definition of the term than I am. It doesn't mean "best ever" or "the most memorable of all time." At least not to me.

As for Phillippe, yeah, but you're comparing a pitching performance to a team that was .272/.313/.392 to one where the opponent was .283/.362/.478 -- a pretty fair spread. I maintain that the fact that Lee did this to THIS ridiculous lineup is highly noteworthy.

#29

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41113 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 9:20 AM
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He clearly has the orb right now.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41114 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 9:36 AM
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Don't go overboard, 29. It's been done before.

Ok, let's put it this way. The next time it happens, they'll be saying "Wow! That was just like how Cliff Lee hamstrung the Yankees in 2009!"
Ray

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41115 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 10:08 AM
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That's a World Series pitching performance for the ages.

Agreed. And the nonchalant, I'm a bored 10 year old pop fly catch and behind the back grab should be a highlight staple for a long, long time.

Go Fightins!

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41116 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 10:36 AM
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As great as Cliff Lee was tonight, don't you have to apply an "opening game factor" to this evaluation?

I heard on the radio that the majority of teams that win game one go on to win the series. If that's true, then I would say any "opening game factor" would have to factor favorably.

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Author: mbarr Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41117 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 11:05 AM
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Also Grover Cleveland Alexander--they'll never make a movie about Cliff Lee.

He doesn't drink enough.

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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41118 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 11:07 AM
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I heard on the radio that the majority of teams that win game one go on to win the series.

I think it's something 11 of the last 12.

Christina

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41119 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 11:18 AM
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I heard on the radio that the majority of teams that win game one go on to win the series. If that's true, then I would say any "opening game factor" would have to factor favorably.

Technically teams that win game seven always win the series but I know what you mean and I agree. Winning the first game has basically neutralized the Yankees home field advantage. If Pedro can, for one night, pitch like its 1999, the Phillies can think about ending it in Philadelphia
RayKinsella

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Author: xMFJokey Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41120 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 11:46 AM
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If Pedro can, for one night, pitch like its 1999, the Phillies can think about ending it in Philadelphia

I have a feeling tonight's game is going to be a 10-8, 12-8 type slugfest. Maybe I'm wrong. I think both pitchers are going to disappoint.

xMF Jokey

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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41121 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 11:55 AM
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I'll be disappointed if it's not a high scoring affair.

Burnett is very hittable and can usually be counted on to brain lock for an inning or two.

On top of that, I doubt anyone with any sense is expecting 3 hit ball out of Pedro.

This should be a fun series because once you get past the aces, neither team has really good pitching.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41122 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 11:57 AM
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I have a feeling tonight's game is going to be a 10-8, 12-8 type slugfest. Maybe I'm wrong. I think both pitchers are going to disappoint.

xMF Jokey


Possible, but if not, you should see the Yanks put up some runs against Hamels in game 3. Everybody else has.

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Author: aos111 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41123 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 12:04 PM
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So whats the weather forecast for tonight because that could be a factor as well

Andy

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41125 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 12:07 PM
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>> So whats the weather forecast for tonight because that could be a factor as well <<

Pretty benign for this time of year: looks mostly clear, in the low 50s and very little wind.

#29

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Author: HardyWeinberg Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41127 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 12:50 PM
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That's a World Series pitching performance for the ages.

Apparently, check this out:

Lee is having nothing less than an historic postseason. Here are the pitchers with the lowest ERAs in a single postseason (minimum 20 IP). Note in particular the K/BB rates:

Pitcher (Year and Team) W-L ERA IP BB K
Waite Hoyt (1921 Yankees) 2-1 0.00 27 11 18
Carl Hubbell (1923 Giants) 2-0 0.00 20 6 15
Christy Mathewson (1905 Giants) 3-0 0.00 27 1 18
Kenny Rogers (2006 Tigers) 3-0 0.00 23 7 19
Sandy Koufax (1965 Dodgers) 2-1 0.38 24 5 29
Harry Breechen (1946 Cardinals) 3-0 0.45 20 5 11
Cliff Lee (2009 Phillies) 3-0 0.54 33 1/3 3 30


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/baseball-insider/2009/10/ar...


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Author: wasmick Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41128 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 1:12 PM
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Like I said, right now he holds the orb. It's a great thing when a player gets torrid and plays way over their head at the perfect time.

If I'm a Phillies fan I'm desperately hoping it lasts another couple of weeks.

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Author: gurdison Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41129 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 1:28 PM
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<And remember--Don Larsen threw a perfect game against the Dodgers in 1955. I saw it myself on TV.>


I'm not sure what tv spring was watching. Don Larson only made one appearance in the 1955 Series.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BRO/BRO195510010.sht...

As you will note, his 11.25 ERA was not "one for the ages". Campanella and Hodges took him deep that day.

When one is being a stickler about charging one with going overboard, they should be careful about getting their facts right. I think Ziggy got it right. It was a stellar performance for Lee against a really tough team 1 through 9. It may not have been a Game 1 Gibson vs Detroit in 1968, but it was very effective nonetheless. It established that if the Yankees are to win the Series, they will have to earn it rather than have it presented to them merely for showing up.

I look forward to a very lively series. Both teams have their share of great players. If it comes down to the manager making a difference, the balance shifts to Manuel IMO. His age and experience serve him well. He does not appear to get flustered very easily. You know his players like and respect him. The spotlight tends to shine on his players rather than himself.

One of the fundamental challenges for a manager like Girardi is toning down his intensity. Being much younger and less experienced always has the potential to cause problems when you are managing people you played with. He has a tendency to want to leave his imprint on the games and often ends up overmanaging. Sometimes that can be overlooked when you have so many incredible horses like he has. Torre never tore himself up when the right matchup didn't work. It happens. He managed the many differing personalities very well. The difference between his championship teams and the later teams was that the WS winners had lots of good players who did the little things that lead to wins in close tight games. He also had better pitching, both starters and setup guys.

One of the keys to the Yankees success is keeping the game close so that their offense does not need a huge rally to come back in any game. Had the game been 2-0 entering the bottom of the 9th, it may well have played out differently. I doubt that Lee would have remained in after the first two batters got on. Yet the idea of using your best guy in the bullpen to keep it close NEVER enters the equation. I don't fault Girardi for that as the game is not played that way anymore. However, if the Yankees don't get some solid performances out of relievers not named Rivera they will not win.

Phillies fans should be much relieved that they did not have to pin their hopes for victory on whether Lidge could have held a 2-0 lead with two on and nobody out (or even starting out the 9th clean). That question will never have to be answered, although similar ones may yet have to be before we are finished. The key will be how well Philly does when they have their chances earlier in the games. If they have ABs like Ibanez in the first inning (much like many ABs the Angels had), the Yanks can win. That was a horrible AB as a 3-1 count with the bases loaded is about the best hitting situation a batter will find himself in. You can really focus on the type of pitch and a specific location where the pitch MUST be before you swing. In such a spot I give blame to the batter rather than credit to the pitcher. YOu can't make a pitchers pitch there. Yet in the 8th inning Ibanez came through by providing the breathing room needed for victory. Let's see what game 2 brings.


B

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Author: ramsfanray Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41130 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 1:37 PM
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It established that if the Yankees are to win the Series, they will have to earn it rather than have it presented to them merely for showing up.


That sound you just heard was the shattering of dreams all throughout ESPN studios.

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Author: dccats5 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41131 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 1:46 PM
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Ok, let's put it this way. The next time it happens, they'll be saying "Wow! That was just like how Cliff Lee hamstrung the Yankees in 2009!"

Only if the Phillies end up winning the series.

Since it was a great pitched game, but not "special" (no hitter/perfect game/20 strikeouts), if the Phils don't win, he'll be the surprise answer to the trivia question the next time somebody pitches that well.

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Author: Springtex Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41133 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 2:58 PM
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<<Phillies fans should be much relieved that they did not have to pin their hopes for victory on whether Lidge could have held a 2-0 lead with two on and nobody out (or even starting out the 9th clean). That question will never have to be answered, although similar ones may yet have to be before we are finished.--B>>

Why do you hate Brad Lidge so much, B?

/s/ S.T.

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Author: chkNYC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41135 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/29/2009 4:08 PM
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I'm not sure what tv spring was watching. Don Larson only made one appearance in the 1955 Series.

I thought "everyone" knew that Don Larsen pitched his perfect game in the 1956 WS.

Lee was great last night and overshadowed the good game pitched by CC.

BTW: I thought I heard that it was first time ever in the WS that a pitcher had a complete game, gave up 0 walks, struck out 10 or more and gave up no earned runs.

Christina

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Author: mcemerson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41167 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/31/2009 11:00 AM
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Perhaps we should compile a top ten list of great World Series pitching performances.

Speaking of great pitching performances... I would like to go back in time and figure just what the hell John McGraw was thinking in the 1912 World Series. He has 23 game winner Christy Mathewson, who at 31 already has over 300 wins under his belt and owned an ERA of 1.00 in the World Series at that point after pitching 3 shutouts in the 1905 World Series. He also has future Hall of Famer Rube Marquard who won 26 games that year on the staff. McGraw, a Hall of Famer himself, elects to start the series with 24 year old rookie Jeff Tesreau against Boston's 34 game winner, Smokey Joe Wood. Keep in mind, the Giants won the pennant by 10 games so it isn't as if he shouldn't have had his pitching staff in order for the Series. Boston predictably, although it was a close games, win game 1.

For Mathewson's part, he pitches for 11 innings game 2 which ends in a 6-6 tie. He was the victim of shoddy defense, 5 errors, 3 by his shortstop, allowed 6 unearned runs to cross the plate. Three days later he pitches 9 innings in game 5 and loses 2-1. Because of the earlier tie there's a game 8 in this series and Mathewson is on mound for it. After allowing the Red Sox 1 run over 9 innings he takes the mound with a one run lead in the 10th and loses the game on... you guessed it, 2 unearned runs.

Over the course of the Series Mathewson pitched 28.67 innings in 3 games (pitching once on 2 days rest and once on 3 days rest), allowed 3 earned runs and got tagged with 2 losses.

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Author: Springtex Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41168 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/31/2009 3:58 PM
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<<Speaking of great pitching performances... I would like to go back in time and figure just what the hell John McGraw was thinking in the 1912 World Series.>>

I dunno, Ralph. Maybe he was wishing he had signed Brad Lidge's great grand-pappy, Silas ("Corkscrew") Lidge to be his "closer". :)

But speaking of "what was he thinking"--if Christy Matthewson was 31 in 1912, that makes him 38 in 1918 when he signed on with the Army to go to France and serve as a chemical weapons officer. We have to admire his sense of patriotic duty--but what was he thinking?

Same question about Ty Cobb. Did Branch Rickey just order a few of his favorite ballplayers to come along and work with him over there?

<<In October 1918, Cobb enlisted in the Chemical Corps branch of the United States Army and was sent to the Allied Expeditionary Forces headquarters in Chaumont, France.[55] He served approximately 67 days overseas before receiving an honorable discharge and returning to the United States.[55] Cobb served as a captain underneath the command of Major Branch Rickey, the president of the St. Louis Cardinals. Other baseball players serving in this unit included Captain Christy Mathewson and Lieutenant George Sisler.[55] All of these men were assigned to the Gas and Flame Division where they trained soldiers in preparation for chemical attacks by exposing them to gas chambers in a controlled environment.[55]>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Cobb#1915.E2.80.931921

/s/ S.T.

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Author: mcemerson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41170 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/31/2009 6:17 PM
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But speaking of "what was he thinking"--if Christy Matthewson was 31 in 1912, that makes him 38 in 1918 when he signed on with the Army to go to France and serve as a chemical weapons officer. We have to admire his sense of patriotic duty--but what was he thinking?

Actually, looking a little closer I see the his birthday was in August so he would have been 32 by the time the Series rolled around.

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Author: Springtex Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41171 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/31/2009 7:17 PM
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I wonder how Ty Cobb got a discharge after only serving 67 days over there? And was it after Matty got hurt in the chemical accident? Could have been one of those "in the best interests of baseball" things, I guess--except MLB didn't even have a commissioner yet.

Hey, Ralph--did you know that they stopped exporting the 10 y/o Aberlour® to us here in the U.S.? Only the 12 and 16 y/o is available now--and personally, I far prefer the 10 y/o product. What is a connoisseur to do?

/s/ S.T.

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Author: mcemerson Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 41172 of 52500
Subject: Re: Cliff Lee is a Beast! Date: 10/31/2009 7:51 PM
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Hey, Ralph--did you know that they stopped exporting the 10 y/o Aberlour® to us here in the U.S.? Only the 12 and 16 y/o is available now--and personally, I far prefer the 10 y/o product. What is a connoisseur to do?

I was wondering why I couldn't find it any more.

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