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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1957255  
Subject: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage meltdown Date: 2/19/2013 2:09 PM
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More Evidence That Government Policy Was Behind the Mortgage Meltdown

Just two months ago, with regards to the mortgage meltdown that government apologists have been eager to lay at the door of moustache-twirling Wall Street types, a research paper answered the question, "Did the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) Lead to Risky Lending?" with a resounding, "yes, it did." Now, Investors Business Daily tells us that, as the federal government encouraged ever-riskier loans with fewer and fewer safeguards, the most enthusiastic issuers of the mortgage-backed securities that ultimately crashed in spectacular form were (can you guess?) Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

IBD's David Hogberg writes:


HUD not only encouraged no down payments but also adopted affordable housing mandates for the government-sponsored en terprises that issue mortgage securities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Beginning in 1996, the [government-sponsored enterprises] had to make 40% of new loans they financed to borrowers with incomes below the national median.

With lower underwriting standards and a mandate to fulfill, Fannie and Freddie's MBS issuance began to take off. It surged more than 116%, from $342 billion in 1997 to $741 billion in 1998.



http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/12/more-evidence-that-governm...


Bears
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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860911 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 2:14 PM
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IBD has been on that kick for years.

And though the Community Reinvestment Act played it's part in the housing bubble.. it was the irresponsible transmogrification of mortgages into leveraged instruments of death that were then fraudulently represented and sold by the banking industry that was the most proximate cause of the meltdown.

I used to subscribe to IBD, until it became apparent that they were little more than a mouthpiece for right wing nonsense... with financial quotes and a few background pieces on various economic issues thrown in to appear respectable.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860912 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 2:14 PM
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Guess this means Banks didnt do it, .....Boooosh didnt do it,..... Barney Frank did it


Dont matter much but good to see the numbers line up to the reason for the meltdown.

Bears

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860914 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 2:20 PM
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And though the Community Reinvestment Act played it's part in the housing bubble.. it was the irresponsible transmogrification of mortgages into leveraged instruments of death that were then fraudulently represented and sold by the banking industry that was the most proximate cause of the meltdown.

But the "transmogrification of mortgages into leveraged instruments of death" was based on the risk that HUD labled them as ...... HUD didnt tag them as "trash" when it lowered the lending standards to include those who were almost expected to fail.

The bankers just bought bundled loans from Fannie and Fredie ... the risk was labled by Fannie and Fredie as they were the only ones who knew how risky the loans were.

Fannie, Fredie and Frank screwed the bankers and the country and the government tried to pass the buck to the bankers .....after Fannie and Fredie stacked the deck with garbage.

Bears

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860917 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 2:25 PM
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The Community Reinvestment Act didn't cause it, the misuse of the law by HUD did. And who was running HUD during the worst violations, Andrew Cuomo a Democrat front runner for President.

Sure Frank and Dodd did their share...but they are out of power and can't do anymore harm. Cuomo is the Governor of New York and can still cause more damage.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860919 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 2:28 PM
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IBD has been on that kick for years.

And though the Community Reinvestment Act played it's part in the housing bubble.. it was the irresponsible transmogrification of mortgages into leveraged instruments of death that were then fraudulently represented and sold by the banking industry that was the most proximate cause of the meltdown.


Fannie and Freddie led the charge. You kind of left that part out. And never mind FIDICIA and other pieces of crappy legislation that set the table, Greenspan's refusal to regulate, OFHEO's castration at the hands of Jim Johnson and his army of lobbyists in Congress, etc. etc.

Fannie is rotten to the core. That you can't stand IBD doesn't change that.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860936 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:14 PM
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The bankers just bought bundled loans from Fannie and Fredie

Oh come on.

We have taped conversations of traders at Goldman Sachs and other investment banks, joking about how they knew these things were "sh%t". And the rating agencies played along, rating these pieces of junk as AAA.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860939 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:34 PM
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We have taped conversations of traders at Goldman Sachs and other investment banks, joking about how they knew these things were "sh%t". And the rating agencies played along, rating these pieces of junk as AAA.

__________

And since the government was backing those pieces of "Sugar Honey Iced Tea" loans there was no risk.

The government was eating the risk...talk about easy money. Hey, I'm off to Vegas next month with bag full of government money. If I lose, what's the difference...if I win...awesome.

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Author: SooozFool Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860940 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:39 PM
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More Evidence That Government Policy Was Behind the Mortgage Meltdown

Just two months ago, with regards to the mortgage meltdown that government apologists have been eager to lay at the door of moustache-twirling Wall Street types


We bailed those greedy bonus-sucking mortgage-repackaging fraud-feasors out to the tune of a lot more than mustache wax.

And yet some still search for the Continental-driving, Chicago-welfare-queen angle to this story. Wonder why.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860941 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:43 PM
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And since the government was backing those pieces of "Sugar Honey Iced Tea" loans there was no risk.

The government was eating the risk...talk about easy money. Hey, I'm off to Vegas next month with bag full of government money. If I lose, what's the difference...if I win...awesome.


Which fits with my consistent theme- Wall Street or Washington... makes no difference.

It's the same people.

Dems and Repubs.

And if we ask the question Cui bono?, it's Wall Street calling the shots, not Washington.

Eating the risk is not the way to make money. It's the folks who have shifted the risk to those eating the risk...who are the smart guys.

Washington politicians? They get perceived "power" out of the deal, I suppose, but in the end, they are dancing to the bankers' tune.


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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860942 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:44 PM
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And yet some still search for the Continental-driving, Chicago-welfare-queen angle to this story. Wonder why.

That's exactly right.

Bingo.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860943 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:46 PM
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And yet some still search for the Continental-driving, Chicago-welfare-queen angle to this story. Wonder why.

___________

It's not hard to find the woman from Chicago living high on the tax payer dollar while mocking everyone else. I believe she's in Aspen right now sking on our dollar.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860944 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:47 PM
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We bailed those greedy bonus-sucking mortgage-repackaging fraud-feasors out to the tune of a lot more than mustache wax.

And yet some still search for the Continental-driving, Chicago-welfare-queen angle to this story. Wonder why.



*Raises hand*
Ooo! I know! Must be...Raaaaaacism!!

We need a new version of Godwin's Law for PA.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860945 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 3:53 PM
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Ooo! I know! Must be...Raaaaaacism!!

Well, when over and over we see the "Continental-driving, Chicago-welfare-queen angle, what do you expect us to believe?

PS I do suppose that the big banks could be characterized as "Continental-driving, welfare queens... though they are primarily in New York.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860946 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 4:00 PM
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PS I do suppose that the big banks could be characterized as "Continental-driving, welfare queens... though they are primarily in New York.

_____________

Wouldn't these banks be more like pimps? The welfare queens in your analogy would be politicians like Dodd and Frank.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860947 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 4:04 PM
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and PS....

The majority of the tranches that blew up were not even composed of mortgages from minority neighborhoods.

They were from places like suburban Phoenix, Vegas, Miami and California.

House flippers and middle class families that bought too much house and thought "the market always goes up", who treated their homes like ATM's.

Look at the areas where housing went bust in 2007. That's where the problems were the greatest.

And it had little to do with the Community Reinvestment Act.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860957 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 4:44 PM
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Well, when over and over we see the "Continental-driving, Chicago-welfare-queen angle, what do you expect us to believe?


You should ask Sooz. She brought it up.

PS I do suppose that the big banks could be characterized as "Continental-driving, welfare queens... though they are primarily in New York.

Don't really care. I've posted the whole crisis timeline a zillion times. Exactly zero liberals care how or why it started.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860972 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 6:37 PM
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I've posted the whole crisis timeline a zillion times. Exactly zero liberals care how or why it started.

If you're talking about the carefully manipulated time line constructed by partisan right wingers that takes special care to blame minorities and Democrats rather than the whole corrupt miasma that is the unholy marriage between both parties and Wall Street... then I'm not interested. You are correct.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860981 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 7:26 PM
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The majority of the tranches that blew up were not even composed of mortgages from minority neighborhoods.

They were from places like suburban Phoenix, Vegas, Miami and California.


But it was still freddie and fannie saying ... here mr banker, take my bundle of mortgates ... sure they are good .... they were loaned to US government specifications ..... you can make bank on these

Bears

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860985 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 7:47 PM
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The majority of the tranches that blew up were not even composed of mortgages from minority neighborhoods. And [the mortgage meltdown] had little to do with the Community Reinvestment Act.

That's right. I originated many CRA loans back in the day. They were nothing like the so called liar loans that caused the meltdown.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860986 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 7:49 PM
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Fannie and Freddie led the charge. You kind of left that part out.

Actually, no. The Agencies were late to the mortgage meltdown party.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860989 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 8:17 PM
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If you're talking about the carefully manipulated time line constructed by partisan right wingers that takes special care to blame minorities and Democrats rather than the whole corrupt miasma that is the unholy marriage between both parties and Wall Street... then I'm not interested. You are correct.

Actually I'm not, but thanks for demonstrating your raging prejudice on the issue and general unwillingness to learn about the trail of legislation that lit the fuse. Pssst: The CRA is only a small part of the giant disaster.

Double psst. My sources are from that raving right wing hate site called the New York Times.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1860991 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 8:25 PM
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Actually, no. The Agencies were late to the mortgage meltdown party.

Fannie and Freddie wrote a lot of the rules. They built a huge pile of wood and lit a fire. Wall Street came along and threw gasoline all over it.

Fannie and Freddie were/are public/private hybrids. The worst of both worlds. Implicitly backed by the feds, it allowed them to borrow at rates lower than other originators. But being privately owned, they needed to show more and more profits. Since they had a line into their regulators at OFHEO through their lobbyists in Congress, they made sure that loan standards were relaxed and that nobody looked too hard into what they were doing.

Wall Street was paying attention, and in 1995 United Companies Financial issued the first MBS' ever to the market that didn't originate from Fannie and Freddie. They did $165M in that first security. In 10 years the market was $467 billion. The Feds bailed out their first hedge fund in 1998 (Long Term Capital Management) and set the precedent for Too Big To Fail. Which had been conveniently codified into FIDICIA ca 1992.

The subprime crisis goes back way before 2008.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861000 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 8:59 PM
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But it was still freddie and fannie saying ... here mr banker, take my bundle of mortgates

As I've said on numerous occasions, fannie and freddie played their part in the mess... but in the end, subprime loans weren't even the majority of loans that were involved. Think Alt-A and ye olde liar loans.

You think sharpies and Goldman didn't know what they were buying? Those bankers were simply rubes?

And then they took those loans, sliced and diced them, repackaged them, levered them up and sold them around the world... all the time chortling to one another that they were selling "sh*t".

The big picture. It wasn't just Democrats. It wasn't just Republicans. It wasn't just minorities. It wasn't just house flippers. It wasn't just Tom and Joe Sixpack living above their means and thinking their house was an ATM. It wasn't just Wall Street. It was all of the above.

As you've said many times.... "we're freakin doomed"... and Pogo was right too... we have met the enemy and the enemy is.......

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861002 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/19/2013 9:17 PM
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The big picture. It wasn't just Democrats. It wasn't just Republicans. It wasn't just minorities. It wasn't just house flippers. It wasn't just Tom and Joe Sixpack living above their means and thinking their house was an ATM. It wasn't just Wall Street. It was all of the above.

A vast right winged AND left winged conspiracy to defraud!

Bottom line, many saw an opportunity to run their programs, get credit or cash for them and stick to the taxpayer down the line. A crime with no one group to point the finger at, confusion as to the cause. What a beautiful crime, it is going to happen again, UC.

99

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861077 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 10:26 AM
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Bottom line, many saw an opportunity to run their programs, get credit or cash for them and stick to the taxpayer down the line. A crime with no one group to point the finger at, confusion as to the cause. What a beautiful crime, it is going to happen again, UC.

99


It most certainly will.

And the right will continue to focus exclusively on poor people as the cause- who by that time will be eating out of trash cans.

Meanwhile- the über rich banksters will be jetting off to their hideaways in Uruguay with America's stolen wealth in their accounts....at least that portion of America's wealth that didn't migrate to China, India and Russia.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861081 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 10:42 AM
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What a beautiful crime, it is going to happen again, UC.

99

It most certainly will.



Later maybe. Right now BOA and others are refusing to sell mortgages to Fannie and Fredie, which is making it hard for anyone but the 1% to get mortgages. The 1% is not buying as much because they have not seen all the Obamacare taxes yet.

(oh, GDP estimates just got dropped because the housing market is crapping out again ... )

Bears

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861095 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 11:35 AM
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And the right will continue to focus exclusively on poor people as the cause- who by that time will be eating out of trash cans.

Other than just creating relative success by harping on what the "other side" is doing wrong, offer what your side is doing right. Offer what is being done to correct this and prosecute those who participated in the last round of the "theft". Yes, it has to involve prosecuting those on your side as well as any other sides. Funny how no bankers are going to jail and financial bank penalty settlements are being set aside.

Cuz if you can't, don't or won't, shouldn't you just STFU already?

99

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861097 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 11:42 AM
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And the right will continue to focus exclusively on poor people as the cause- who by that time will be eating out of trash cans.
______________________

Why would this person STFU, when they can just flat out tell absurd lies. The person just lies their butt off and you let it pass, Granted there is so much there FOS I do not blame you

No one on the right blames what happened on poor people. They blame it on politicians doing stuff they claimed was for poor people and forcing bad decision to be made regarding how poor people were going to get screwed first by government and then by banks

Another liberal loser lying and trying to move the goalposts. I understand how it makes them feel better about screwing the folks they claim to have wanted to help, but they should have known better.

And becoming liars to an absurd degree making them feel better about themselves seems a rather severe form of mental illness.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861098 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 11:44 AM
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The mortgage melt down is in fact yesterday's news. Yes, you may be able to find that one shining individual with the target on his back upon which you can lay all the blame ..... but doubtful. From the government to lenders to the borrowers, there is so much guilt to go around, you will never find that "one" individual.

Not considered is that after many of these loans were made (first two years of the big push), many of those loans were within lending spec, though maybe on the bottom end of qualifications.

Then, the economy cratered. Suddenly, borrowers who were qualified were without jobs..... so they no longer qualified ?

Bears

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861099 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 11:49 AM
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The mortgage melt down is in fact yesterday's news. Yes, you may be able to find that one shining individual with the target on his back upon which you can lay all the blame ..... but doubtful. From the government to lenders to the borrowers, there is so much guilt to go around, you will never find that "one" individual.

Not considered is that after many of these loans were made (first two years of the big push), many of those loans were within lending spec, though maybe on the bottom end of qualifications.

Then, the economy cratered. Suddenly, borrowers who were qualified were without jobs..... so they no longer qualified ?

Bears
_______________________
AKA borrowers that the banks absent government pressure were always very slow to lend to and which the government used as a criteria to proclaim the bak managers were all anti some group or the other and begin pressuring the banks to lend to the bottom tier?

Oh never mind, what happened never really happened, only some bizarro world rewrite of history.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861103 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:00 PM
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Other than just creating relative success by harping on what the "other side" is doing wrong, offer what your side is doing right. Offer what is being done to correct this and prosecute those who participated in the last round of the "theft". Yes, it has to involve prosecuting those on your side as well as any other sides. Funny how no bankers are going to jail and financial bank penalty settlements are being set aside.

You haven't noticed? NOTHING is being done right. The banks continue to call the shots and we continue to roll over... and the right, laughably, continues to blame poor people for their troubles.. and the banksters laugh all the way to the bank.

Why do you think I keep posting on the issue?

Cuz if you can't, don't or won't, shouldn't you just STFU already?

Why don't you just continue to post links to vegetable shredders that shape carrots into penises... or make masterbation jokes?

It's what you are most knowledgeable about.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861105 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:02 PM
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Why would this person STFU, when they can just flat out tell absurd lies. The person just lies their butt off and you let it pass, Granted there is so much there FOS I do not blame you

No one on the right blames what happened on poor people. They blame it on politicians doing stuff they claimed was for poor people and forcing bad decision to be made regarding how poor people were going to get screwed first by government and then by banks

Another liberal loser lying and trying to move the goalposts. I understand how it makes them feel better about screwing the folks they claim to have wanted to help, but they should have known better.

And becoming liars to an absurd degree making them feel better about themselves seems a rather severe form of mental illness.


After that nonsense, do you really want to talk about mental illness?

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861106 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:04 PM
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The mortgage melt down is in fact yesterday's news.

That was only the opening act. You think the banks are no longer sucking in America's wealth? You think this is over?

You think that vainly trying to claim that the issue is over will end the debate?

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861112 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:09 PM
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Why don't you just continue to post links to vegetable shredders that shape carrots into penises... or make masterbation jokes?

It's what you are most knowledgeable about.


We all have our interests, don't we? An x-rated vego-matic is something one doesn't usually see. Educate and amuse, or so they say. At least now I know who FA'd that one. Thanks.

Tell me oh wise one, in a few brief sentences tell me who are the folks involved in this whole mess and who among them have been jailed or fined? What checks did Obama put in place to make for "change" that will be effectual, not to mentioned promised?

The "poor people" or those who where made poor and lost out on the housing fiasco were pons for the mortgage instituions and bankers who lost nothing much personally. Who is to blame? Who guaranteed those mortgages and why were standards not up to snuff and enforced?

99

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861117 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:40 PM
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That was only the opening act. You think the banks are no longer sucking in America's wealth? You think this is over?

You think that vainly trying to claim that the issue is over will end the debate?


Noooo .... after we are all "protected" by Obamacare, we can move on to 0 interest government housing loans, 0 interest credit cards, forgive everyones debt, have lunch with Obama .......

You wont even think about banks after the reality of Obamacare is exposed

The age of the Dem-Orwellian party is upon us

Bears

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861118 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:45 PM
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...who treated their homes like ATM's.

Banks encouraged that, too. When we did a re-fi a while back we were asked how much cash we wanted.

????

Oh yes, we can cut you a check for up to <some number I don't remember> that you can spend any way you want.

Basically, a home equity loan. We just wanted the lower interest rate, so we skipped on the cash.

I don't recall that they offered that last year when we re-fi'd our new house and got the term cut to 15 years. But this is after the "crisis" of 2008, so maybe they don't do that anymore.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861120 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:48 PM
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At least now I know who FA'd that one. Thanks.

1. I didn't FA your post.
2. Nor do I worry much about who FA's my posts... you'll never see me post about it. Only whiners post about such things.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861121 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:49 PM
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Tell me oh wise one, in a few brief sentences tell me who are the folks involved in this whole mess and who among them have been jailed or fined?

Tell me, O Oblivious One, who has been posting for the last five years about the need to bring the bankers to justice... and how both parties have let us down on that score?

That would be me, O Numbnuts.

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861122 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 12:52 PM
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2. Nor do I worry much about who FA's my posts... you'll never see me post about it. Only whiners post about such things.

Frankly, I consider it a status symbol of sorts, thus my thanks given.

It was up for such a short period of time I am amazed someone other than the FA'er saw it.

Maybe a disgruntled buyer?

99

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861123 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:02 PM
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Banks encouraged that, too. When we did a re-fi a while back we were asked how much cash we wanted.


Shame on them, believing you could make your own financial decision on what you could afford.

Bears

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861125 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:02 PM
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It was up for such a short period of time I am amazed someone other than the FA'er saw it.

I did see it, and didn't know it was pulled until you just now mentioned it.

I think I've FA'd 2 posts in my entire time posting here at the Fool... let's just say "3 times" to be safe.

... and it was for far worse than you've ever posted.

Some guy suddenly appeared about five years ago- posting links to truly perverted websites that I would politely call "Crapology: The Visual Tour". I FA'd one of his posts.

I think he lasted about an hour before the Fool banned him forever. All traces of his posts vanished in a flash.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861127 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:03 PM
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You haven't noticed? NOTHING is being done right. The banks continue to call the shots and we continue to roll over... and the right, laughably, continues to blame poor people for their troubles.. and the banksters laugh all the way to the bank.

This isn't correct. For the 60 thousandth time:

We have a lot of bad laws on the books right now that create incentives that drive a lot of bad behavior in the marketplace. These laws need to be amended or repealed so that these economy-killing incentives dry up.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861130 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:05 PM
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Tell me, O Oblivious One, who has been posting for the last five years about the need to bring the bankers to justice... and how both parties have let us down on that score?

That would be me, O Numbnuts.


And you are so focused on something that whatever you feel can be done has little impact, you have ignored the mess we are in now

Trillion Dollar budget deficits (4 years!)
Obamacare
Failing social programs
Sequester
Still havent passed a budget
Loss of rights
Printing money as fast as the presses will run
No immigration policy

Bears

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861131 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:06 PM
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You haven't noticed? NOTHING is being done right. The banks continue to call the shots and we continue to roll over... and the right, laughably, continues to blame poor people for their troubles.. and the banksters laugh all the way to the bank.

This isn't correct. For the 60 thousandth time:

We have a lot of bad laws on the books right now that create incentives that drive a lot of bad behavior in the marketplace. These laws need to be amended or repealed so that these economy-killing incentives dry up.


You've just said you agree with me.

Nothing is being done.

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861132 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:07 PM
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That would be me, O Numbnuts.

Well, that firmly would put you in the unhappy with Obama camp ( where the buck is supposed to stop) and would in fact fly in the face of his promise for "change". So why do you continue to soft shoe for him? I suspect your nuts are not the only thing numb.

99

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861133 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:10 PM
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And you are so focused on something that whatever you feel can be done has little impact, you have ignored the mess we are in now

Trillion Dollar budget deficits (4 years!)
Obamacare
Failing social programs
Sequester
Still havent passed a budget
Loss of rights
Printing money as fast as the presses will run
No immigration policy


You think about half of these issues are unrelated to the fact that we are turning over the rewards to the banks while socializing the risk?

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861135 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:20 PM
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You think about half of these issues are unrelated to the fact that we are turning over the rewards to the banks while socializing the risk?


NO, I believe you are sleeping at the wheel. So hung up on trying to ID someone to burn at the stake, the whole country is going up in flames and you dont see it.

Bears

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861137 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:28 PM
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Shame on them, believing you could make your own financial decision on what you could afford.

Wow. Nice spin, Bears. You should work for the next Republican presidential nominee's campaign. You're good at it.

On second thought, don't. We would never survive another Repugnantcan president. We still haven't cleaned up all the damage from the last one.

1poorguy

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861138 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:31 PM
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NO, I believe you are sleeping at the wheel. So hung up on trying to ID someone to burn at the stake, the whole country is going up in flames and you dont see it.

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861139 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:31 PM
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Tell me, O Oblivious One, who has been posting for the last five years about the need to bring the bankers to justice... and how both parties have let us down on that score?

That would be me, O Numbnuts


Hmm. Thought that was me. :^)

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861141 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:35 PM
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NO, I believe you are sleeping at the wheel. So hung up on trying to ID someone to burn at the stake, the whole country is going up in flames and you dont see it.
____________________________

Never mind that the process was the problem, and the folks who put the rules in place that were going to lead to this inevitably, let's punish someone -- but let's most importantly put folks in place who will not consider making less rules or good rules, let's expand the rules. Let's put things in place to fix things and create an enemies list

Most importantly though do not notice the system is the problem it is out of control and there is no way to get control until you control it.

SO let's elect folsk who want to see it grow, who want to add to it, and most importantly who can not find anything that government should not be doing

Bill doth protest too much. He loves this, he is just unhappy they ahve not found enough folks to punish. I doubt he even knows it. ehhhh who cares

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861146 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:56 PM
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On second thought, don't. We would never survive another Repugnantcan president. We still haven't cleaned up all the damage from the last one.

1poorguy


The more unfocused and incompetent you become, the bigger was "the mess" left for you. Yeah, I get it and am quite tired of it.

Time to flush this bowl and bring in a new crew.

99

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861147 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 1:56 PM
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Most importantly though do not notice the system is the problem it is out of control and there is no way to get control until you control it.

We're both on that page, lowstudent.. but you have consistently narrowed your focus on Democrats as the cause.

I see it as a collusion between Democrats, Republicans and bankers.

And the bankers are calling the shots.

There's an old question that most usually provides the answer to who is responsible for a mess when the mess is complicated.

Who profits?

Who has profited from the meltdown and subsequent waves of government and monetary policy?

The banks.

They are in charge.

You can re-arrange all the deck chairs you want in Washington, but until the banks are restrained, nothing will change.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861149 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 2:02 PM
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On second thought, don't. We would never survive another Repugnantcan president. We still haven't cleaned up all the damage from the last one.

1poorguy


Time to take off the rose colored glasses and look around.

Just Obamacare and what it is turning out to be, I cant believe that the most die hard liberal can look and not fear the worst. Really. This house is on fire .... how can any American ignore it for party line? (even though members of "the party" in Congress are jumping ship based on what they have seen so far)

Bears

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861151 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 2:06 PM
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NO, I believe you are sleeping at the wheel. So hung up on trying to ID someone to burn at the stake, the whole country is going up in flames and you dont see it.

Bears


Bears,

I live and work just southwest of Detroit.

Don't talk to me about not seeing the whole country going up in flames.

We went up in flames before any of you even thought there was a problem.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861155 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 2:11 PM
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Bears,

I live and work just southwest of Detroit.

Don't talk to me about not seeing the whole country going up in flames.

We went up in flames before any of you even thought there was a problem.


Then how do you remain so fixated on the bankers when there are things happening in the present that will kill us?

Bears

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861156 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 2:18 PM
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Then how do you remain so fixated on the bankers when there are things happening in the present that will kill us?

Fixated on the bankers in the context of this thread that you started.. yes.

Why are you fixated on the Community Reinvestment Act and poor home buyers when they had so little to do with the financial meltdown, let alone the things that are happening in the present that will kill us?

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861163 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 2:30 PM
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Why are you fixated on the Community Reinvestment Act and poor home buyers when they had so little to do with the financial meltdown,

I'm not, as the thread started .... I blame the Government. Bankers? they just took advantage of the weakness in the governments programs.

Bears (IMO)

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861166 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 2:35 PM
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I blame the Government. Bankers? they just took advantage of the weakness in the governments programs.

They also own the government.

That might change your assessment a smidgen.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861179 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 3:11 PM
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Fannie and Freddie wrote a lot of the rules. They built a huge pile of wood and lit a fire. Wall Street came along and threw gasoline all over it.

The Agencies wrote the rules for their own securitized loans. They didn't write the rules for neg am, option ARM and other loans that private portfolio lenders introduced and that directly instigated the mortgage meltdown.

The Agencies came late to the party with "stated income" and interest only loans, but they still weren't the toxic products dreamed up by lenders such as First Federal Savings, World Savings, etc. which were, of course, backed by Goldman Sachs, etc.

I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong that F/F "built a huge pile of wood and lit a fire."

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861183 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 3:17 PM
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The banks continue to call the shots and we continue to roll over.

Oh, brother. Nothing could be further from the truth. You wouldn't believe what it's like to be a banker these days. They're scared sh!tless of Dodd-Frank, which is causing even well-qualified borrowers to have great difficulty getting a loan.

I could go on for hours and hours about how UTTERLY INCOMPETENTLY the Dodd-Frank Act was written. Go Dems.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861186 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 3:23 PM
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Oh, brother. Nothing could be further from the truth. You wouldn't believe what it's like to be a banker these days. They're scared sh!tless of Dodd-Frank, which is causing even well-qualified borrowers to have great difficulty getting a loan.

If you are talking about local/regional banks, I agree.

The big Wall Street Banks.... nope, sorry. They're calling the shots.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861196 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 3:58 PM
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Just Obamacare and what it is turning out to be,...

I'm sure you're not referring to the fact that it isn't single payer (which is its biggest flaw - relying on for-profit insurance is a mistake), so could you elaborate?

1poorguy

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861200 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 4:25 PM
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The Agencies wrote the rules for their own securitized loans. They didn't write the rules for neg am, option ARM and other loans that private portfolio lenders introduced and that directly instigated the mortgage meltdown.


Fannie and Freddie set the stage so that NO ONE was regulating ANYTHING.

The Agencies came late to the party with "stated income" and interest only loans, but they still weren't the toxic products dreamed up by lenders such as First Federal Savings, World Savings, etc. which were, of course, backed by Goldman Sachs, etc.

I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong that F/F "built a huge pile of wood and lit a fire."


And I'm sorry, but we disagree here. You can trace the crappy legislation and the incentives created thereby all the way back to the 1970s.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861209 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 4:48 PM
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Just Obamacare and what it is turning out to be,...

I'm sure you're not referring to the fact that it isn't single payer (which is its biggest flaw - relying on for-profit insurance is a mistake), so could you elaborate?

1poorguy



Cost .... way over budget
Reduction in Medicaid? .... puts more people on medicaid
Medicare fix? takes a huge amount of Medicares money
Prescription prices? Not addressed
Coverage? Most policies will be catastrophic type (Bronze)
Ability to see Doctor when needed? Not for lower and maybe middle income with a $2500+ deductible before insurance kicks in
Saves money? No .. that line is gone, plus numerous new taxes yet to start
Keep the policy you have .... nope
Employee funding? 9.5% will not cover the cost of a family policy for most.
Fines will not prevent companies from dropping health care coverage.
Calling "Full time" over 28 hrs will cause a cut in hours and that will impact the economy

What does it do right? Name something please ... anything


Bears

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861210 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 5:19 PM
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Cost .... way over budget

CBO says budget-neutral, to plus-side.

Reduction in Medicaid? .... puts more people on medicaid

Expected.

Medicare fix? takes a huge amount of Medicares money

Are you referring to the not increasing the doctor fees in Medicare? If so, that's not "taking from". That's just not "giving to". They pass legislation every so often to patch it, but PPACA stops that. Not the same as taking away "huge amount" of money.

Prescription prices? Not addressed

Agreed that's a problem. But it's not what O-care does, but something it does NOT do that it should. Doing nothing at all would have the same result on this one.

Coverage? Most policies will be catastrophic type (Bronze)

Perhaps not ideal, but more than many folks have now. So that's still a 'win'.

Ability to see Doctor when needed? Not for lower and maybe middle income with a $2500+ deductible before insurance kicks in

And before they had any coverage at all this was different...how? Again, not ideal. But as above, doing nothing would have had the same result. So it's still a net win that they have any coverage at all.

Saves money? No .. that line is gone, plus numerous new taxes yet to start

Overtly saves money? Not that I've seen. Indirectly, it probably will. If it reduces ER visits for trivial matters it will save a fortune.

Keep the policy you have .... nope

I'm keeping mine. No sign of it changing at all, except that now my wellness visits aren't limited to $400 per year (not that I ever used that much).

Employee funding? 9.5% will not cover the cost of a family policy for most.

Please elaborate. What are you referring to?

Fines will not prevent companies from dropping health care coverage.

Please elaborate. Companies over a certain size must provide care. I think this is the wrong way to cover everyone, but that's what this does. They won't have the option to drop coverage.

Calling "Full time" over 28 hrs will cause a cut in hours and that will impact the economy

Agreed. That's stupid. It should cover someone who works 1 minute a week or more. That will eliminate that problem.

What does it do right? Name something please ... anything

Keeping in mind that I think "right" is "single payer" (which this isn't)...

It prevents insurance from dropping you when you get sick.
It provides coverage, including preventative care, to more people. That preventative care will eliminate the need for future acute care in some cases. It will also help reduce frivolous (and expensive) ER visits.
It removes the caps on wellness (preventative) care.
All vaccinations are fully covered (child and adult).
Greater transparency of insurers (i.e. how they spend their money).
Contraception coverage.
No annual benefit caps.

That's "something".

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861212 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 5:25 PM
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Please elaborate. What are you referring to?

Jumping in, he's referring to the 'affordability' standard of 9.5% of one's income for a policy. If cost of coverage is more than 9.5%, then the employee is not required to purchase the policy. However, the 9.5% threshold applies to an individual, not a family, policy - so employees are unlikely to be able to purchase coverage for family policies from their employers or get subsidies to buy them on the exchanges.

Please elaborate. Companies over a certain size must provide care. I think this is the wrong way to cover everyone, but that's what this does. They won't have the option to drop coverage.

He's referring to the fact that the fines for failure to comply are low relative to the cost of coverage. Although companies "must" provide coverage, the penalty for failing to do so may not be large enough to keep them from dropping coverage and just paying the fine.

Albaby

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861217 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 5:54 PM
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...so employees are unlikely to be able to purchase coverage for family policies from their employers or get subsidies to buy them on the exchanges.

So they're no worse off than without PPACA, just not better off either. Same as if we had done nothing at all.

Although companies "must" provide coverage, the penalty for failing to do so may not be large enough to keep them from dropping coverage and just paying the fine.

Interesting. Does seem like a hole in the system. I assume those fine monies would be used to pay for uncovered workers through Medicaid or exchanges or whatever.

Single payer eliminates all of that nonsense, though, AND it eliminates the friction from for-profit insurance companies. But I don't know if we'll ever achieve that now that this system is being implemented.

1poorguy

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861218 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 5:58 PM
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Cost .... way over budget

CBO says budget-neutral, to plus-side.


Link Please .... here are the numbers

http://www.weeklystandard.com/sites/all/files/images/-2.prev...


Medicare fix? takes a huge amount of Medicares money

Are you referring to the not increasing the doctor fees in Medicare? If so, that's not "taking from". That's just not "giving to". They pass legislation every so often to patch it, but PPACA stops that. Not the same as taking away "huge amount" of money.



No, Obamacare takes $716 Billion from Medicare to Fund Itself

Link .... http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/01/obamacare-robs-medicare-...


Coverage? Most policies will be catastrophic type (Bronze)

Perhaps not ideal, but more than many folks have now. So that's still a 'win'.


What about the many millions who had very good coverage through their employer or through their own purchased policies? That will be gone forever.


Ability to see Doctor when needed? Not for lower and maybe middle income with a $2500+ deductible before insurance kicks in

And before they had any coverage at all this was different...how?


That is the point, Obamacare was to make healthcare more accessable ... it isnt


I will combine these two

Keep the policy you have .... nope

I'm keeping mine. No sign of it changing at all, except that now my wellness visits aren't limited to $400 per year (not that I ever used that much).

Employee funding? 9.5% will not cover the cost of a family policy for most.

Please elaborate. What are you referring to?



Say your employer provides health insurance. Under Obamacare rules, it cannot cost more than 9.5% of your base salary. Say you make $60,000. The max your employer can buy your policy for is $6000.00. Under Obamacare, that may be enough to insure one single person. Have wife, kids? Policy still cant cost more than $6000.00

As for keeping old policy .... one, the insurance company will need to still offer that policy. They may not. Obamacare forces insurers to charge their eldest beneficiaries no more than 3 times what they charge their youngest ones. That will make most existing policies out of spec and eliminated.

Some other company? California just announced that they expect to have two insurance companies to pick from in each area of the state ... two.


Fines will not prevent companies from dropping health care coverage.

Please elaborate. Companies over a certain size must provide care.



No, Companies over a certain size must provide care or if they choose not to, then pay the penalty fine. The fine is less than providing coverage.



AS for your list of plusses, most are moot. The "preventative care" you refer to is one visit per 360 days.

As for "help reduce frivolous (and expensive) ER visits" Bob struggles to put food on the table though he has a good job, he has many bills (stupid bob). Bob gets sick or finds one huge bump on his left testicle. To go to the doctor will cost $120.00. Bob dont have $120.00 and Bob has not met his deductable. Bob goes to the ER or ignores the symptoms until it becomes advanced stage cancer in which case he will get charged the $2500 deductable, then the insurance steps in, then bobs family defaults on the $2500 owed because bob dies.

Bears

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861221 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 6:04 PM
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Interesting. Does seem like a hole in the system. I assume those fine monies would be used to pay for uncovered workers through Medicaid or exchanges or whatever.

Not really ..... If your employer does not provide, you go and buy on the exchange out of pocket. If you are single making less than 44,000 per year, there is some assistance (more the lower your income) If you are married family of 4, and you make less than 90,000 family income, there is some assistance, more the less you make ... less the closer to $90,000 year. Expect "so so" Obamacare policy for family of four to be around $15,000 plus per year, good policy ..... "maybe" under $20,000, but I expect more (low deductable, low co pay)

Bears

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861231 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 6:33 PM
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It prevents insurance from dropping you when you get sick. But it does not prevent them from lowering the bar in terms of providing care, in terms of time, cost etc. You must know this will be a battle ground in reducing the "standard of care". Definately "Something" to be concerned over.
It provides coverage, including preventative care, to more people. That preventative care will eliminate the need for future acute care in some cases. It will also help reduce frivolous (and expensive) ER visits. It might, but that only works if the individuals come in for the preventitive care as prescribed and are compliant with recommended advice, like not smoking, limit alcohol and drug use, safe sex and such. Well we know how that goes, right? In fact it may have the opposite effect you are anticipating because the individuals can put off such care and advice knowing they have to treat you later anyways. Definately "something" but just what is it?
It removes the caps on wellness (preventative) care. Not sure what you think this means, unlimited wellness care, nutrition advice, check ups, etc. Diagnostic tests galore or what? Now it is abuse by the Docs, so now abuse by those insistant on being tested for *%*?Sounds like a drain on the system if not controlled. Definately a change or "something" or is it really?
All vaccinations are fully covered (child and adult). Ok, probably mostly good, but not a huge expense now as it is. How much overuse will this get cuz it is "free"? Increased side effects and lawsuits? "Something" though.
Greater transparency of insurers (i.e. how they spend their money). You mean monitoring the services they provide by number/type verses the remittance they receive? Already there, but I guess this administrations idea of "transparency" could take hold and that will really be "something else"
Contraception coverage. Oh, goodie. But aren't we seeing a decline in individual responsibility for your own self? Risk is now being taken on by the pool (socialized risk) and not so much the individual. I am not sure this is a good thing all together.
No annual benefit caps. The skies the limit and someone else will pay instead of me. A socialists wet dream. Utilization will skyrocket, expectation and demand through the roof, limited resources...RIOTS.

That's "something". Yeah, something else.

99


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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861239 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 7:02 PM
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CBO - effect of repeal of O-care: http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43471 (increases deficit)

We can infer that not repealing means the deficit is lower that it otherwise would be. This is due to various revenue generators within the law.

Truth about the Medicare thing:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/...

That amount -- $716 billion -- refers to Obamacare’s reductions in Medicare spending over 10 years, primarily paid to insurers and hospitals. But the statement gives the impression that the law takes money already allocated to Medicare away from current recipients.

What about the many millions who had very good coverage through their employer or through their own purchased policies? That will be gone forever.

No it won't. My HR department is pretty good about communicating with us, and there is no sign this will happen. My company will make whatever changes are required (like the wellness), but our policy is not "gone forever".

I also disagree that my points were moot. On the contrary, they are very relevant. Now if you want to argue that this system is not perfect, and that not everyone will have a perfect outcome, then I will agree. We don't have a perfect outcome now either.

Also, I don't accept your interpretation of the 9.5% rule. I looked it up. That says the employer (insurance) cannot charge more than 9.5% of your salary for the medical benefit coverage. It does not say that you can't cover your family because that's not enough. Specifically, if a family of 4 has a combined income of 300% (or higher) the poverty level (which translates to ~$66K) the most the employee can be charged for the coverage of his family is ~$6300. The family still has coverage, and a "cost sharing subsidy" apparently makes up at least some of the difference. The CBO estimates that without this provision the average family of 4 premium would be over $11K.

1poorguy

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861248 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 7:37 PM
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But it does not prevent them from lowering the bar in terms of providing care, in terms of time, cost etc.

You need to stop believing all the nonsense on the conservative sites.

Insurance companies can not drop people AND they can not lower the bar on anyone. To do so would lower their costs and thus trigger ever lower premiums. Actual medical expenses paid under their programs must be 80% (for individuals/small business) to 85% (for larger groups) of revenues. In other words, true competition between insurance companies--and they can not run away from it via paperwork or fancy legal footwork.

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861251 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 7:53 PM
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Beginning in 1996, the [government-sponsored enterprises] had to make 40% of new loans they financed to borrowers with incomes below the national median.

Funny how you fail to mention who set that requirement. Are you ashamed to mention it?

With lower underwriting standards and a mandate to fulfill, Fannie and Freddie's MBS issuance began to take off. It surged more than 116%, from $342 billion in 1997 to $741 billion in 1998.

Not mentioned: Foreclosure rate for those mortgages through 2001. Now why would THAT fact be oh-so-carefully omitted?

CRA was not responsible for the housing market collapse.

As stated numerous times previously, the cause of the collapse was:

The Wall Street investment banks getting ratings agencies to improperly rate large volumes of their junk bonds as AAA.

You can quote me on that as it is irrefutably true. You do not have to believe it. But if you choose to not believe this statement, do you want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn? All cash, sold "as is, where is".

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861255 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 8:48 PM
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You need to stop believing all the nonsense on the conservative sites.Like what sites are you talking about. The ones you know I frequent?

Insurance companies can not drop people AND they can not lower the bar on anyone. To do so would lower their costs and thus trigger ever lower premiums. Actual medical expenses paid under their programs must be 80% (for individuals/small business) to 85% (for larger groups) of revenues. In other words, true competition between insurance companies--and they can not run away from it via paperwork or fancy legal footwork.

Wow, what a fool believes. I have worked extensively in the "industry" and it would take me too long to get you up to speed. Just remember, you didn't know all that.

99

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861258 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 9:35 PM
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Like what sites are you talking about. The ones you know I frequent?

To spout their claims means you are not thinking for yourself--because the facts contradict the claims. Do you claim you don't think rationally or base your opinions on verifiable facts?

I have worked extensively in the "industry" and it would take me too long to get you up to speed. Just remember, you didn't know all that.

I have some familiarity with the industry as well. Health insurers handed out rebates in 2012--which you knew if you worked extensively in the industry. Not a surprise for a mutual insurance company--but it would be a surprise for a customer of a private for-profit insurance company.

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861260 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 9:53 PM
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But it does not prevent them from lowering the bar in terms of providing care, in terms of time, cost etc.

You need to stop believing all the nonsense on the conservative sites.

Insurance companies can not drop people AND they can not lower the bar on anyone. To do so would lower their costs and thus trigger ever lower premiums. Actual medical expenses paid under their programs must be 80% (for individuals/small business) to 85% (for larger groups) of revenues. In other words, true competition between insurance companies--and they can not run away from it via paperwork or fancy legal footwork.

___________

Your reponse clearly shows to me you have not a clue how the game is played. Not an effing clue.

Think alternate benefits, copays for not covered benefits, think wait time, think referencing cutting edge tx and therapy as "experimental" and not a benefit, think referral network that is penalized for referring for more costly tx, competing "experts" and other cost saving modes.

99

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861264 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 10:20 PM
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Your reponse clearly shows to me you have not a clue how the game is played. Not an effing clue.

Actually, I do have more than a clue.

Think alternate benefits, copays for not covered benefits, think wait time, think referencing cutting edge tx and therapy as "experimental" and not a benefit, think referral network that is penalized for referring for more costly tx, competing "experts" and other cost saving modes.

All of which are disclosed in the policy AND reflected in the premium. If a benefit is not covered--who needs to say more? It is NOT covered--and thus the person will pay less for the policy as a result. And so on for the rest of your statement. There is NO way around the 80%/85% payout requirement--and if another insurance company offers those other treatment alternatives, then the buyer has a choice between a business that BETTER covers the buyer's needs at an affordable price and one that does NOT.

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Author: 99lashes Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861268 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 10:46 PM
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All of which are disclosed in the policy AND reflected in the premium. If a benefit is not covered--who needs to say more? It is NOT covered--and thus the person will pay less for the policy as a result. And so on for the rest of your statement. There is NO way around the 80%/85% payout requirement--and if another insurance company offers those other treatment alternatives, then the buyer has a choice between a business that BETTER covers the buyer's needs at an affordable price and one that does NOT.

_______________

So you are a dreamer and a fool. What happens when they rack up bills that suggest on paper 80/85% payout...we need more money. Who audits this stuff and at what cost. Is it universal coding? If they offer an "alternate benefit" that is covered guess what it will be "cheaper" and not what the Doc or patient wants as a first choice. You take the alternate benefit or forget it, or pay out of pocket for the cost differential.

There are more games than possible regulations.

So you trust the government to get this right in our lifetime...you really are a sucker.

99

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861271 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/20/2013 11:53 PM
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"So you trust the government to get this right in our lifetime...you really are a sucker."

Who are you trusting now? Insurance companies. And you are calling someone else a dreamer and a fool?

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861272 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 12:01 AM
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What happens when they rack up bills that suggest on paper 80/85% payout...we need more money.

They set the premiums. Management gets less of a bonus that year--or is replaced--if they screw up often enough. That IS a management problem.

Who audits this stuff and at what cost.

Auditors already go over this stuff very carefully year. What is paid out for claims is pretty easy to track. Claims track back to policies issued by the firm which track back to revenues/premiums received. It isn't rocket science.

There are more games than possible regulations.

Only so long as information is kept secret from consumers (particularly costs and revenues). That was precisely the game played previously. With revenues now tied to actual healthcare costs, that game ends. The playing field between insurance companies has been mostly leveled AND consumers have more information to make better informed decisions/choices.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861300 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 9:30 AM
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The big Wall Street Banks.... nope, sorry. They're calling the shots.

No, they're not. I deal with the repercussions of the national impact of Dodd-Frank every...single...day. It's stoopid legislation.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861302 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 9:33 AM
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Fannie and Freddie set the stage so that NO ONE was regulating ANYTHING.

If the Agencies were the only entity securitizing loans, that would be the case, but they're not. Yes, they underwrite the majority of loans in this country, but they were not at the forefront of the mortgage meltdown.

I was appalled when I saw some of the non-Agency loans introduced to the market years before the mortgage meltdown. Next thing you know, the Agencies also offered similar loans.

That was the chain of events. I was there.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861303 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 9:40 AM
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You can trace the crappy legislation and the incentives created thereby all the way back to the 1970s.

There were no incentives to create crappy loans. There were incentives to banks to continue to lend in "underserved" communities--that is, places where a bank wouldn't organically do business. But if they wanted to put branches in Beverly Hills, they had to also do business in South Central.

But the program (singular, not plural) they used to incentivize banks to serve underserved areas was absolutely positively nothing like the programs (plural, not singular) that led to the mortgage meltdown, I don't care what you read about the crisis.

The CRA loan had NONE of these features of the meltdown loans:

~ stated income
~ stated assets
~ negative amortization
~ options for monthly payments
~ no escrow account (impounds for property taxes and hazard insurance)

The CRA loan insisted on:

~ fixed rate or 5/1 ARM only
~ full documentation
~ mandatory impounds
~ full amortization

This is just the way it was. You can believe it or not believe it. Your belief doesn't change the history of the CRA loan.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861304 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 9:46 AM
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Beginning in 1996, the [government-sponsored enterprises] had to make 40% of new loans they financed to borrowers with incomes below the national median.

Provided that borrowers with incomes below the national median could ALSO meet sound underwriting guidelines:

~ Full documentation ONLY (no stated income or assets)
~ Fixed rate mortgage or 5/1 ARM only (no neg am, interest only or Option ARMs)
~ Mandatory impound account
~ Drop dead DTI (debt-to-income) ratio of 45% (same as it is today)

I guess on anyone who hasn't originated a loan in their entire life, these distinctions are completely lost.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861305 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 9:49 AM
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Who are you trusting now? Insurance companies. And you are calling someone else a dreamer and a fool?

The insurance industry is the most heavily regulated industry in the private sector. The requirement for reserves exceeds even that of the United States Government.

There has never in the history of the insurance industry been a policy holder with a legitimate claim that has not had that claim honored. Ever.

I'd trust an insurance company over the government any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861344 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 11:31 AM
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"There has never in the history of the insurance industry been a policy holder with a legitimate claim that has not had that claim honored. Ever."

Wow.

"I'd trust an insurance company over the government any day of the week and twice on Sunday."

Then they have a customer for life.

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861404 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 2:20 PM
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There has never in the history of the insurance industry been a policy holder with a legitimate claim that has not had that claim honored. Ever.

Uh, what do you think CAUSED the collapse of the financial markets? The insurers could NOT "make good" on all the legitimate claims filed. That left investors "naked" to the risk--and the rest is history. Investors took a HUGE cash loss as a result because they could NOT get paid by the insurance companies--which filed for bankruptcy and got out of their obligations to pay.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861456 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 6:20 PM
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Uh, what do you think CAUSED the collapse of the financial markets? The insurers could NOT "make good" on all the legitimate claims filed. That left investors "naked" to the risk--and the rest is history. Investors took a HUGE cash loss as a result because they could NOT get paid by the insurance companies--which filed for bankruptcy and got out of their obligations to pay.

You are misinformed.

And I'm making a distinction between insurance products and credit derivatives.

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Author: CCinOC Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861470 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/21/2013 7:33 PM
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I agree with every word of this gentleman's analysis.

http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Public%20Policy%20Issues...

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Author: jerryab Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1861539 of 1957255
Subject: Re: Com. Reinvestment Act caused mortgage melt Date: 2/22/2013 12:27 AM
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I'm making a distinction between insurance products and credit derivatives.

That makes no sense. They are both insured against a specified loss at a specified premium set by the insurance company. Insurance companies issue insurance products--either to the general public or to meet a specific need of a unique customer.

The difference is virtually all the insurance companies that issued those excess loss policies went broke and failed to pay many of the valid claims for losses suffered.

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