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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1933088  
Subject: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 8:57 AM
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That certainly seems to be the case in the health care debate.

I will support your right to NOT take care of your health care needs.

Curious.

Peter
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Author: JEDIKNIGHT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762440 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 9:08 AM
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Liberals also support freeloading in so many arenas.

So relax.

In the meantime decide, are you your brother's keeper, or not? Liberals keep saying they are, but then they whine where it doesn't suit their agenda.

Jedi

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762447 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 9:43 AM
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Jedi are you your brother's keeper, or not?

My position is very clear and consistent. Society should provide everyone with certain basic needs:

* education

* health care

* transportation to work

* child care while working

* basic food stuffs when requested

* minimal housing in dire circumstances

but never cash or cash equivalents like food stamps.

Peter

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762449 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 9:50 AM
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"My position is very clear and consistent. Society should provide everyone with certain basic needs:

* education

* health care

* transportation to work

* child care while working

* basic food stuffs when requested

* minimal housing in dire circumstances

but never cash or cash equivalents like food stamps.

Peter "

We have over a trillion dollar defict right now, and you want to add more cost? You guys are insane! Socialism cannot be funded!!!

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762452 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 9:58 AM
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SG, I suppose you support food stamps, AFDC, TANF, Section 8 housing, etc.

All of which I oppose.

You socialist, you!

Peter

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Author: JEDIKNIGHT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762454 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:05 AM
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Cool.

In other words, you support some forms of freeloading. Well intentioned, and in some cases useful....but nevertheless freeloading.

So, since you are 'consistent' your position is the Conservative one....freeloading on health care is ok, and therefore no mandate to buy health insurance.

When you provide someone "in need" with the list you just wrote, SOMEBODY else is helping to provide it. Not the government...but other taxpayers.

So let's tell Libs to lay off health care. If someone doesn't have insurance, others can pay for it. If someone is smoking or fat, let's TAX the person who is in good shape to pay for it.

TO each according to his need, FROM each according to his ability.

Jedi

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762458 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:13 AM
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Jedi freeloading on health care is ok,

No, it's not.

I would pay for SP/UHC with a consumption tax. Everybody pays. That is the nature of insurance. Everyone pays a little; some get reimbursed a lot.


If someone is smoking or fat, let's TAX the person who is in good shape to pay for it.

I would impose a federal tobacco tax and a junk food tax. Let the smokers and the fatties pay more.


Rabit: consistent, clear, fair.

Peter

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762460 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:19 AM
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"Rabit: consistent, clear, fair.

Peter "

I'll give you the first two, but fair you are not, its not fair to make everyone pay so much for everyone else. Enough with everyone throw 10% of their net worth in one pot to pay for things for everyone crap.

The individual should pay their own bills, if their bills are higher or lower its their personal burden, this is the only true fair and just method.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762461 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:20 AM
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Ya know, if they simply had made this a part of the payroll tax in the first place, this would have been a non-issue. Yes, I realize that it would have been much more difficult to pass - but it would have been done correctly.

Perhaps they should have taken a page out of the Bush playbook ala Medicare plan D and the Education Bill - pass the legislation first and get it funded second (if at all).

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762462 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:23 AM
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In other words, you support some forms of freeloading.

Personally, I totally support "freeloading" by the elderly poor, the disabled and poor children with crappy parents. They make up something like 90-percent of social welfare recipients. If we could only figure out a way to cut the crappy parents out of the deal...

I think a society is rightly judged by how it treats its weakest members.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762469 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:28 AM
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SG not fair to make everyone pay so much for everyone else

What do you think about public education?

How can it be fair to put property taxes on people who don't even have kids in the schools?

Peter

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762476 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:36 AM
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"What do you think about public education?

How can it be fair to put property taxes on people who don't even have kids in the schools?

Peter "

This isn't all or nothing
There are certain basic services and safety nets i can support

Education
help for the poorest among us

But every able body should sink or swim

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762481 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:42 AM
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My position is very clear and consistent. Society should provide everyone with certain basic needs:

* education

* health care

* transportation to work

* child care while working

* basic food stuffs when requested

* minimal housing in dire circumstances

but never cash or cash equivalents like food stamps.

Peter

____________

Not all of these are basic needs and you are being very vague.

Education - All 50 States have in their Constutions the requirement of a public education. (The question could be to what age/grade) But it's a guarentee that the States have, we don't need Federal interference.

Heath Care - Not a basic right, but if you think to what level? Primary care? Specialists? Why should it be free?

Transportation to work - So if I work in a city and live 20 miles away, the government should send me transportation for free? Not even close to a basic right. Maybe a free car for everyone so they can commute.

Child Care when working - Not a basic right, having a child and having a job is a choice. Government child care isn't a right.

Basic Food "Stuff" - Agreed, the government should provide free food for people who can't afford it themselves.

Minimum Housing - Agreed, again for those who can't afford it.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762482 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:46 AM
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I think a society is rightly judged by how it treats its weakest members.

__________________

And what is the better way to treat them?

Give them a fish or teach them to fish?

Is tough love better than coddling?

Is better to let someone fail, only to learn from the mistakes or to hold their hand so they never fail?

Do we want equal opportunity or equal outcome? Should everyone get a trophy for trying or should we keep score.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762486 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:50 AM
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"And what is the better way to treat them?

Give them a fish (liberal) or teach them to fish? (conservative)
Is tough love (conservative) better than coddling? (liberal)

Is better to let someone fail, only to learn from the mistakes (conservative) or to hold their hand so they never fail? (liberal)

Do we want equal opportunity (conservative)or equal outcome?(liberal) Should everyone get a trophy for trying (liberal)or should we keep score. (conservative)"

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762489 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:58 AM
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SG But every able body should sink or swim

And after they "sink" and are no longer able bodied?

Then you will support them?

You see, I have a very different approach. I don't want to reward failure. I want to provide certain necessities such as education and health care to everyone. In my preferred world there is no advantage to being poor.

But if you want cash, you have to work.

Peter

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762492 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:02 AM
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cjb So if I work in a city and live 20 miles away, the government should send me transportation for free?

Why do you put the most ridiculous interpretation on what I say?

Of course not. In the city there is a public transportation system. If you are working, you can get a voucher to ride to and from work.

I want to encourage working.

Peter

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762497 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:05 AM
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My position is very clear and consistent. Society should provide everyone with certain basic needs:

* education

* health care

* transportation to work

* child care while working

* basic food stuffs when requested

* minimal housing in dire circumstances


Fair enough, but one can agree with all of those positions without necessarily supporting the PPACA - or even universal health care. One can agree that society should provide everyone with those basic needs, but still have a healthy debate over how they should be provided.

For most items on your list, other than K-12 education, people are generally expected to provide those things for themselves using their own private resources. Only in cases of actual impovershment will government step in and provide the service directly. If you are above the poverty line (or some multiple thereof), you have to provide your own food, housing, transportation, and child care.

An analogous set up in health care would result in a universal Medicaid system up to a certain income level, and then people would be responsible for their own health care above that point. The wisdom of such a policy is open for a lot of debate, of course. I just think it's worth noting that for most of the items on your list, we 'ensure' universal access in much the same way we currently do for health care - government provides the service only for people in actual poverty.

Albaby

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762498 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:07 AM
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The individual should pay their own bills, if their bills are higher or lower its their personal burden, this is the only true fair and just method.

Let the strawberry pickers die in the fields! They cannot afford it.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762499 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:07 AM
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SG Do we want equal opportunity

You should be quite clear that what I propose is equal opportunity. EVERYONE gets an education. EVERYONE gets health care. EVERYONE can have basic food if they ask for it. EVERYONE can live in the city and get a voucher to ride public trans to their job.

Finding a job? Holding a job? Earning money? Having a career?

That is up to the individual. No work, no pay.

Peter

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762504 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:15 AM
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government provides the service only for people in actual poverty.

Albaby


I oppose this approach. I don't want to reward poverty.

Provide everyone with health and education (through trade school). Transportation to work, childcare while they are working. A room with a kitchen and a bathroom down the hall if need be.

That's it. No welfare payments. No food stamps. No housing subsidies.

Peter

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Author: yosemitebean Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762506 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:15 AM
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Rabit: consistent, clear, fair.

Peter

----------------------------------------------

....He's brilliant and sexy too.:) - Carol

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762510 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:21 AM
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I oppose this approach. I don't want to reward poverty.

Provide everyone with health and education (through trade school). Transportation to work, childcare while they are working. A room with a kitchen and a bathroom down the hall if need be.


Really? Is there any non-communist government today that provides government paid-for housing for everyone, even people that aren't in poverty? I think that's something of an unusual position.

Albaby

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762515 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:24 AM
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Albaby, do you think the demand for a room with a bathroom down the hall is going to exceed our ability to provide such?

What do you propose for people who can live no better than that?

Sidewalk?

Homeless shelter?

Housing subsidies?

Peter

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762529 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:38 AM
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Albaby, do you think the demand for a room with a bathroom down the hall is going to exceed our ability to provide such?

What do you propose for people who can live no better than that?

Sidewalk?

Homeless shelter?

Housing subsidies?


Means-based testing that limits the availability of government paid-for housing to those who cannot afford their own.

It's not a question of whether we have the ability to provide housing. Rather, it's the simple fact that if you start giving away housing for free to everyone - even people who can afford to pay for their own - you're going to unspool the low end of the housing market. If you can live for free somewhere (and I don't think the "bathroom down the hall" works for safety reason), the marginal cost of a low-end "starter" apartment becomes a really bad choice. Why pay $500 per month for a crappy apartment in a dodgy neighborhood (at least here in Miami) when you can get a crappy apartment in a dodgy neighborhood for free?

That will start to expand, of course. Once you get more and more voters living in the government provided housing, you're going to get a lot of political pressure to make that housing a little less crappy. People who live in the 'free' apartments want better housing, and people who are paying for those 'free' apartments want them to be good enough for them to actually be able to live in them (after all, they're already paying for them).

There's a reason why close to 90% of school-age kids go to public school, even though there's no legal obligation to choose that option. A free altnerative is going to crowd out the private providers.

Albaby

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762530 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:38 AM
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"Finding a job? Holding a job? Earning money? Having a career?

That is up to the individual. No work, no pay.

Peter "

So i take it you are against preferential treatment toward minorities in the work place, filling jobs to meet minority quotas, and affirmative action?

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762536 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:46 AM
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"So i take it you are against preferential treatment toward minorities in the work place, filling jobs to meet minority quotas, and affirmative action? "

You said it. There is no reason to be hiring people to fill quotas.

What that does is disadvantage other people. City after city are being sued by other groups for not being able to be hired.

We've had 40 years of affirmative action. Dang...if those 'minorities' can't compete after 40 years of free public eduction, highly subsidized college educations for 'really poor folks'......... why should 'race preferences' be continued?

When Asians are 90% of the applications for MIT and Stanford, and have the highest scores, what justification is there to 'reserve' spots for 'dumber minorities'?

sorry...the time for special deals is over.


t.

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762545 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 11:50 AM
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EVERYONE can have basic food if they ask for it. EVERYONE can live in the city and get a voucher to ride public trans to their job.

So free food to anyone that simply asks?

How would you allow for everyone to live in the city if they wish? Massive government housing?

I am having difficulty even conceptionalizing what everyone living in the city with enough free public transportation for everyone would look like. I imagine something like a cross between Cairo and NYC but with about 10x as many subway and bus runs.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762556 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 12:00 PM
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Here we are decades and decades later and it is still puzzling how liberals do not see the destruction of their social policies (unintended or intended).

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762617 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 1:27 PM
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An analogous set up in health care would result in a universal Medicaid system up to a certain income level, and then people would be responsible for their own health care above that point. The wisdom of such a policy is open for a lot of debate, of course. I just think it's worth noting that for most of the items on your list, we 'ensure' universal access in much the same way we currently do for health care - government provides the service only for people in actual poverty.

How do we as a nation deal with all the workers in jobs that will never pay enough for food, and healthcare?

Million of people who pick and process our food, clean and maintain our homes and places of work.... they barely earn enough for food and shelter. They utilize emergency rooms, public clinics, which we all subsidize, letting the employers completely off the hook.

Another case of privatizing profit, but socializing the expense to the rest of us.

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762621 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 1:31 PM
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How do we as a nation deal with all the workers in jobs that will never pay enough for food, and healthcare?

One way is the same way we deal with workers in jobs that cannot pay enough for food, shelter, clothing, and other necessities - establish a poverty line that covers the amount necessary to cover all those necessities plus healthcare, and let people below that line qualify for Medicaid.

Albaby

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762640 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 2:02 PM
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Why do you put the most ridiculous interpretation on what I say?

Of course not. In the city there is a public transportation system. If you are working, you can get a voucher to ride to and from work.

I want to encourage working.

_______________

Just taking you at your word.

And no the government shouldn't give you a voucher for public transportation. Public transportation is already subsidized by the government.

You're actually not encouraging working, by giving people more free stuff. Encouraging them to work is giving them less free stuff. Why work if the government will give you free food and transportation? Why work hard if it's subsidized?

You want to encourage work, take away the freebies. Isn't it amazing how many people find work when unemployment insurance runs out?

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762647 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 2:09 PM
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Provide everyone with health and education (through trade school). Transportation to work, childcare while they are working. A room with a kitchen and a bathroom down the hall if need be.

That's it. No welfare payments. No food stamps. No housing subsidies.

_______

In reality what's the difference between me giving you a free room to live in and a housing subsidy? Both involve the government paying for where you live.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762652 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 2:18 PM
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So i take it you are against preferential treatment toward minorities in the work place, filling jobs to meet minority quotas, and affirmative action?

In general, yes. I am opposed to all race-based considerations.

I would support a bias towards four-year college admission based on low parental income. People who grow up with well-off parents have a tremendous head start. Anyone who doesn't have that advantage and comes close to winning admission at a four-year college deserves a break.

Peter

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762658 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 2:22 PM
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cjb In reality what's the difference between me giving you a free room to live in and a housing subsidy? Both involve the government paying for where you live.

You can't see the difference between a room with a bathroom down the hall and a Section 8 housing subsidy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_(housing)

Oh, well...

Peter

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Author: xLife Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762671 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 2:58 PM
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And what is the better way to treat them?

Give them a fish or teach them to fish?


Teach them, obviously, but we're talking mainly about poor children, the disabled and the poor elderly, people who are't very capable anglers. Ever been fishing with a four-year-old?

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762686 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 3:27 PM
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One way is the same way we deal with workers in jobs that cannot pay enough for food, shelter, clothing, and other necessities - establish a poverty line that covers the amount necessary to cover all those necessities plus healthcare, and let people below that line qualify for Medicaid.

That's still socializing the expense of all those workers, isn't it?

Is it cheaper to cover them with medicaid than requiring their employers to cover their healthcare with commercial healthcare policies?

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762691 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 3:34 PM
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That's still socializing the expense of all those workers, isn't it?

Is it cheaper to cover them with medicaid than requiring their employers to cover their healthcare with commercial healthcare policies?


How is it socializing the expense? That's not the employer's expense - those are the needs of the individuals, and such needs exist whether they are employed or not (much less whether they are employed by that particular employer).

Albaby

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762697 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 3:45 PM
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The problem with drawing that line for qualifying for free government healthcare/etc. is the same problem we have now with lines, those near the line won't go out and better themselves because they don't want to lose the bene's and those who find themselves just above the line will do everything they can to worsen their situation to get below that line, it becomes a target to hit instead of something to exceed and get out of.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762701 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 3:49 PM
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"I would support a bias towards four-year college admission based on low parental income. People who grow up with well-off parents have a tremendous head start. Anyone who doesn't have that advantage and comes close to winning admission at a four-year college deserves a break."

That's pretty unfair isn't it? what if a rich kid and a poor kids were up for one scholorship, the rich kid's GPA was 4.0 and the poor kids GPA was 3.9, if all is fair and right the rich kid should get the scholarship, but what you are saying is he shouldn't because his parents can afford to pay for it? That's terribly unfair, the rich kid earned that scholarship!!!

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762704 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 3:51 PM
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"than requiring their employers to cover their healthcare "

Great idea, increase the cost on employers so they have to fire workers to cut costs, or not hire people to keep costs down.

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Author: JEDIKNIGHT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762707 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 3:54 PM
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So you are discriminating then.

If someone carelessly has a baby without having a plan to take care of it, you want them to "freeload" via free transportation and child care.

But you want to tax smokers and fatties.

Discrimination.

And, double standards based on how YOU want to dictate to others how to live.

Falwell and Liberals, more in common than not.

Jedi

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762727 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 4:13 PM
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How is it socializing the expense?

ConAgra, Archer Daniel Midlands, Cargill, Del Monte, Dole, H.J. Heinz, big corporate ag companies take good care of their executive and management level workers.

Laborers for the small farms who sell their product to the biggies- pickers, sorters - not so much.

You and I pick up the tab for those who are not covered and get sick.

If they get cancer after 30 years groveling in fields of pesticides, who picks up thetab for their palliative care? You and me.

That's what I call socialized expense.

It enables the Heinz CEO's and shareholders to enjoy high salaries and dividends, and the consumers to realize lower priced produce.

It all gets screwed up furhter when our markets are flooded with cheap peaches from Greece, brussel sprouts from Belgium, pears from africa, apple juice from China.

But make no mistake, cheap labor aint't cheap. We pay for it one way or another.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762736 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 4:25 PM
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So even with the insured picking up the tab for the unisured most people have a reasonable deductible 2 to 4 thousand per year.

Obamacare is doubling/tripling these deductibles!!!!

It appears we are better off picking up the tab for the unisured, its cheaper.

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762780 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 5:23 PM
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You and I pick up the tab for those who are not covered and get sick.

If they get cancer after 30 years groveling in fields of pesticides, who picks up thetab for their palliative care? You and me.

That's what I call socialized expense.


We also pick up the tab for their health care costs if they smoke, or drink, or overeat - or whether they work at all - and are not covered. Those are their healthcare costs, the same way that their costs of clothes or food or shelter are their own costs.

I guess I don't understand how those are the company's expenses, not the expenses of the individual people.

Albaby

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762830 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 6:50 PM
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If they get cancer after 30 years groveling in fields of pesticides, who picks up the tab for their palliative care? You and me.

I guess I don't understand how those are the company's expenses, not the expenses of the individual people.

Because they willingly worked in the fields and got paid the agreeed upon rate per basket. I get it. But they didn't know that they would be getting gassed. They didn't know that that gassing had cumulative effects. That wasn't what they bargained for.

It's not legally the company's expense. They've managed to shape labor laws to their liking.

In other civilized nations, those low wage workers are deemed worthy of comprehensive healthcare, just like the CEO's and management.

I suppose it's a matter of how a society values it's people.

If we think it's bad now... wait until the population jumps another third. Our poor will suffer like the Calcutta slums. Imagine the things we can get the poor bastards to do then!

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762833 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 6:56 PM
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In other civilized nations, those low wage workers are deemed worthy of comprehensive healthcare, just like the CEO's and management.

I suppose it's a matter of how a society values it's people.


I agree with the latter part - I just don't see the 'company expense' connection. In other countries, my child's routine visits to the pediatrician would also be paid for by the state - here, I have to pay them either out-of-pocket or through private health insurance. Either that gets provided to me as a benefit or paid for out of my wages....or picked up by the government if I can't afford it. That doesn't make my daughter's medical bills an expense of the company I work for, so that the company is 'socializing the expense' of my daughter's health care.

Albaby

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762882 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 8:38 PM
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SG That's pretty unfair isn't it? what if a rich kid and a poor kids were up for one scholorship, the rich kid's GPA was 4.0 and the poor kids GPA was 3.9, if all is fair and right the rich kid should get the scholarship, but what you are saying is he shouldn't because his parents can afford to pay for it? That's terribly unfair, the rich kid earned that scholarship!!!

First off, the question is admission not scholarships.

So why should they admit the poor kid with the 3.9 over the rich kid with the 4.0? Because that poor kid has had to struggle (long hours of hard work) to get that far. He will almost certainly succeed in college.

The rich kid is a gamble.

Peter

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1762925 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/27/2012 10:58 PM
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That doesn't make my daughter's medical bills an expense of the company I work for, so that the company is 'socializing the expense' of my daughter's health care

If the company you work for doesn't pay you enough to buy healthcare, and does not provide itas a benefit, then it is not a company expense.

They are letting the government (thee and me) pay for your healthcare. That is referrred to as socializing cost, since they are not incurring that cost. Money that might have gone to your healthcare as a benefit or salary is, instead, a month in the Bahamas for a CFO or CEO (or a dividend to me).

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1763027 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/28/2012 9:59 AM
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If the company you work for doesn't pay you enough to buy healthcare, and does not provide itas a benefit, then it is not a company expense.



In many countries, healthcare is not tied to employment. There is no reason for this to be considered an employer expense any more than my dry cleaning or my toothpaste is an employer expense.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1763053 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/28/2012 10:51 AM
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Hw In many countries, healthcare is not tied to employment. There is no reason for this to be considered an employer expense any more than my dry cleaning or my toothpaste is an employer expense.

No reason, but in fact this is the way the US does things. So family medical expenses are a direct impact on employers IN THE UNITED STATES.

Employers all over the country are cutting back on how much of the cost of medical insurance they cover. It is a huge burden on low income employees. (I've heard the discussions among employees.)

Peter

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1763069 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/28/2012 11:03 AM
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No reason, but in fact this is the way the US does things.

It didn't always. In fact, employer-based health insurance is largely due to the fed deciding to provide tax incentives to employers to provide such and then to employees by not taxing them on the value of the benefit. This was provided, I believe, back in the 1940s.

Tying health coverage to employers makes as much sense as tying retirement plans to employers - and that has not worked out all that well either.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1763125 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/28/2012 12:20 PM
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Hw Tying health coverage to employers makes as much sense as tying retirement plans to employers - and that has not worked out all that well either.

I agree. So we are left with two choices:

1) Everyone on their own.

2) Form one big pool.

I have been self employed for over twenty years and I can tell you that 1) sucks.

Peter

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Author: Hawkwin Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1763164 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/28/2012 1:18 PM
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But will it get any better for you under the new law? As far as I know, you still cannot pool yourself with other entities. Self employed health insurance is likely to get even more expensive since insurance companies must now provide coverage for pre-existing conditions - and you will end up paying for such via your individual policy.

Of course, if you belong to a professional association, you might be able to get insurance through them.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1763251 of 1933088
Subject: Re: Conservatives support free-loading Date: 3/28/2012 5:08 PM
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Hw But will it get any better for you under the new law?

We need single-payer. One big pool. Simple.

I'm sort of hoping PPACA gets struck down. I think we get single-payer sooner that way.

But I'm on Medicare now, so WTFDIK.

Peter

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