Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (53) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 444950  
Subject: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military budget? Date: 1/23/2013 10:10 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 15
So this thought wandered through my head last night. Isn't it the same people who say:

- My right to bare arms is to fight the tyranny of gov't

and then also say...

- Don't cut military spending because we must be the biggest military in the world


....??
Print the post Back To Top
Author: 10talents Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416793 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 10:16 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
excellent point....I know a lot of people whose blood pressure will go up when I ask them....I think I'll start right now!!!

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416794 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 10:23 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 8
How about this gun contradiction:

Gun nutters maintain that having lots of firearms in the general population protects us and keeps us safe.

Yet the United States has a much higher violent crime rate than other nations that have far fewer guns. The same pattern can be observed with the United States, for example Texas and Alaska that have high gun saturation and lax gun laws have higher violent crime rates than states like Oregon and New York that have fewer guns and tighter gun laws.

There is no rational to the gun nutter argument, only warped passion focused on the second amendment and imagined government tyranny, and the testosterone-charged impulse to pound one's chest and feel powerful.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416795 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 10:25 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Isn't it the same people who say:

- My right to bare arms is to fight the tyranny of gov't



Nah..... I'll let someone else play with it.

Wattle the other posters say?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: DirtyDollie Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416801 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 11:38 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
My right to bare arms is to fight the tyranny of gov't

Is this from the same people who oppose liberal or social regimes that aim to help all people, rather than just the rich? Those horrible tyrants!

Print the post Back To Top
Author: discurro Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416805 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 12:04 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
- My right to bare arms is to fight the tyranny of gov't


I am guessing this refers to anti-government tattoos

Print the post Back To Top
Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416806 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 12:19 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
dlbuffy: "My right to bare arms is to fight the tyranny of gov't"

I thought the right to bare arms was to suntan evenly and show-off tats (if applicable). (;>)

Regards, JAFO

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sandyleelee Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416807 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 12:22 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
- My right to bare arms is to fight the tyranny of gov't

My right to bare arms is to be allowed to wear sleeveless tops.

My right to bear arms is to be allowed to own a gun.

My right to bare arms is sacrosanct.

My right to bear arms is not.

SLL

Print the post Back To Top
Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416824 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 12:59 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
There is no rational to the gun nutter argument, only warped passion focused on the second amendment and imagined government tyranny, and the testosterone-charged impulse to pound one's chest and feel powerful.

I respect that you may honestly believe this. But it is hurtful to read from someone I generally respect. I'm on the other side of this issue and I don't resemble this characterization at all.

Do you think your argument might improve if you left out the belittling and hateful name-calling?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416831 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 1:32 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Do you think your argument might improve if you left out the belittling and hateful name-calling?

You mean in the same way the righties on this board speak with so much respect for progressives? Jeez, I think with that example is voice is actually rather moderate. Ever catch Ted Nugent's act?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416833 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 1:35 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
BTW: I've been shooting since I was seven, or for fifty nine years.

There's a huge difference between sport shooters and gun nutters.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416834 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 1:37 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
You mean in the same way the righties on this board speak with so much respect for progressives?

Yes, in exactly the same way. Your point?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416840 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 1:46 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
SIGH...got back here and thought 'woo, a conversation about my post'. No, only to find detention time for bad grammer.














(Won't she be surprised? :^P)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416855 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 2:27 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
There's a huge difference between sport shooters and gun nutters.

You wouldn't know it by listening to the insane moral panic over guns going on on the left right now. Lots of perfectly legit sport shooting men and women own guns that are perfectly legit sport rifles designed to be accurate and easy to shoot and that are no more dangerous than any other semi-automatic weapon. But because the guns are black and scary looking anyone who owns them must be insane and it is ooooooobvious that they are mass-murdering machines of mass destruction-murder.

This, despite the fact that handguns are statistically the most dangerous weapons and by far the most common murder weapons - even in cases of mass murder.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416858 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 2:49 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
I respect that you may honestly believe this. But it is hurtful to read from someone I generally respect. I'm on the other side of this issue and I don't resemble this characterization at all.

Do you think your argument might improve if you left out the belittling and hateful name-calling?



The recent gun control uproar has been very depressing to me. I've watched close friends who are liberals begin acting like -ack- Republicans. The same disregard of facts and details, the same assumptive Everyone Already Knows attitude, the same "if you disagree you must hate babies" garbage.

And to make it worse, it came from several who are outspoken defenders of Obama's drone program and who find it quite easy to dismiss dead babies when they are far away and brown, but who find all sorts of recreation in using pretty white ones as clubs with which to beat their political opponents for fun.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416861 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 2:58 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
My right to bare arms is sacrosanct.

My right to bear arms is not.




a typo in 2d Amendment?

makes more sense that way

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416868 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 3:04 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 7
I respect that you may honestly believe this. But it is hurtful to read from someone I generally respect. I'm on the other side of this issue and I don't resemble this characterization at all.

Do you think your argument might improve if you left out the belittling and hateful name-calling?



I apologize if I offended you. My comment is directed at people I consider gun nuts, and hopefully you are not one. Do you feel you need a gun to protect you from government tyranny? Do you feel that the proliferation of guns and loose gun laws are making us safer?

I own a gun and I respect the rights of others to own and use guns in a legal and rational manner. I do not feel the need to build a bunker and arm myself to fight off the Black-Hawk helicopters.

I stand by my statement though when it comes to so many of the people that I talk to regarding firearms and reforms. The folks who think the government is out to get them, the folks that think that any gun reform means Obama is coming for all their guns, the folks that think the answer to spree shootings is to arm everybody; these people are nuts.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416874 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 3:32 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
The folks who think the government is out to get them, the folks that think that any gun reform means Obama is coming for all their guns, the folks that think the answer to spree shootings is to arm everybody; these people are nuts.


AND... they have really tiny tinkie-winkies. :)

AM

Print the post Back To Top
Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416876 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 4:01 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
I apologize if I offended you. My comment is directed at people I consider gun nuts, and hopefully you are not one.

I don't think that we should ban AR15s. I don't think we should ban all semi-automatic weapons. I don't think that banning 11 round magazines will prevent or mitigate a single mass murder. Those positions land me solidly in the "gun nut" camp according to many of the posts I've read here on the Fool.

Do you feel you need a gun to protect you from government tyranny?

I believe that an armed citizenry contributes to our protection from Government overreach and tyranny*

Do you feel that the proliferation of guns and loose gun laws are making us safer?

What proliferation of guns? Didn't someone recently post stats demonstrating that gun ownership has been in decline for decades?

What loose gun laws? I don't accept your characterization that our gun laws are currently "loose."

I stand by my statement though when it comes to so many of the people that I talk to regarding firearms and reforms. The folks who think the government is out to get them, the folks that think that any gun reform means Obama is coming for all their guns, the folks that think the answer to spree shootings is to arm everybody; these people are nuts.

I don't think that the answer to spree shootings involves banning AR15s. Does that make me nuts? Many posters here seem to think so. It's not that I reject "any gun reform" but I absolutely reject gun reform that appears to be entirely symbolic or opportunistic.

I echo Ziege19's sentiment: "The recent gun control uproar has been very depressing to me. I've watched close friends who are liberals begin acting like -ack- Republicans. The same disregard of facts and details, the same assumptive Everyone Already Knows attitude, the same "if you disagree you must hate babies" garbage."

* In regards to that point, I don't believe the question raised in this thread is truly a contradiction because our "biggest military in the world" is comprised of soldiers who are also part of that armed citizenry. It's a snarky argument, and I see why it would be fun to laugh about, but I don't think it's a sincere question that poses any sort of intellectual dilemma for a Second Amendment advocate. We might look to the law enforcement offers who have publicly stated refusal to enforce any gun confiscation or control measures they deem unconstitutional to help inform our predictions of how the enlisted members of our military might react to an order to raise arms against their fellow citizens.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416877 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 4:05 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
And to make it worse, it came from several who are outspoken defenders of Obama's drone program and who find it quite easy to dismiss dead babies when they are far away and brown,


seems rather easy to decide that Drones don't kill babies ... or
at least that drones kill fewer babies than the
'alternative'

/-:

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416882 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 4:26 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 8
seems rather easy to decide that Drones don't kill babies ... or
at least that drones kill fewer babies than the
'alternative'


Not too easy to me...not many babies died even on 9/11. And I guess if you want to believe the US Military's story about casualty numbers and how effective its programs are, ok. I don't see that my safety will ever demand that we vaporize 12 year olds in Pakistan and force wide swaths of the world's population

To me, that just makes us the world's Ted Nugent, arguing that we need to be armed to the teeth, to the point of absurdity, in order to keep ourselves safe from the boogeymen in our paranoid fantasies. But we're worse, because so far as I know Ted Nugent isn't actually actively killing people and creating anti-American combatants.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416886 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 4:40 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Not too easy to me...not many babies died even on 9/11. And I guess if you want to believe the US Military's story about casualty numbers and how effective its programs are, ok. I don't see that my safety will ever demand that we vaporize 12 year olds in Pakistan and force wide swaths of the world's population


I'm with you on this..

( read somewhere no one, not even the military
has a good idea how much "collateral damage"
from the drones )

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416887 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 4:44 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
I don't think that banning 11 round magazines will prevent or mitigate a single mass murder.

Gangs love these macho guns with big clips. Drive- by shootings kill way too many innocents because these guys shoot a large number of rounds as fast as they can.

If we ban these big magazines, eventually we'll see less of them on the streets. EVENTUALLY. That's a good thing.

I believe that an armed citizenry contributes to our protection from Government overreach and tyranny*

I believe in education and voting.

What loose gun laws? I don't accept your characterization that our gun laws are currently "loose."

A national standard for gun sale reporting and background checks would prevent a lot of gun sales to people who shouldn't have guns.

sano

-breaks more clay than you ;-0

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416888 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 4:48 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
What proliferation of guns? Didn't someone recently post stats demonstrating that gun ownership has been in decline for decades?

We have the highest population of guns in the world, and it's growing. There is some thought that the numbers of gun owners may be on the decline, but those that do own guns own more of them.

What loose gun laws?

Well, for a start the ones that allow private sales and gun show sales with no background check. Most guns involved in crime can be traced back to gun shows and a handful of unscrupulous dealers. This is a hole that needs to be plugged.

I don't think that the answer to spree shootings involves banning AR15s.

It's not only about spree shootings. It's about street crime, domestic violence, suicide, and accidents. Every gun out there is a point on a graph that increases the mathematical odds of something unfortunate happening. There are simply too many guns in circulation for our own good. Compare our stats to the rest of the civilized world, it is glaringly obvious. I fail to see how people can not recognize guns as the public health hazard that they are.

Guns can be safely owned and utilized, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with the untold thousands of abusive uses of guns, and I want some serious reform.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416894 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:22 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
We have the highest population of guns in the world, and it's growing. There is some thought that the numbers of gun owners may be on the decline, but those that do own guns own more of them.

So?

You can only carry so many at once. I've tripled the number of guns I own in the last two years. Sounds like a lot until you know that I went from one to three. Each new one had a special purpose. I already had a rifle for deer hunting. I added a 22 for target shooting and small game hunting. I added a muzzleloader to extend the number of days I could hunt deer. I may add a shotgun soon so I can turkey hunt. Why does it really matter to you if I keep buying for various purposes?

PSU

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416897 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:32 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Why does it really matter to you if I keep buying for various purposes?

It matters if you sell them to someone who might be dangerous. It matters if someone steals them from you. It matters if you or a family member go off the deep end.

As long as you secure your guns and remain sane, it doesn't matter, but remember that every gun in circulation is a point on a graph, and each increases the likelihood of abusive gun use.

What if the mother of the shooter in Newton had only one gun instead of several? Things might have been different.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416898 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:32 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
Excuse me? (Carp, with appropriate tags in place, sigh)

* In regards to that point, I don't believe the question raised in this thread is truly a contradiction because our "biggest military in the world" is comprised of soldiers who are also part of that armed citizenry. It's a snarky argument, and I see why it would be fun to laugh about, but I don't think it's a sincere question that poses any sort of intellectual dilemma for a Second Amendment advocate.

Ok, so you admit that having guns prevents gov't tyranny. Who exactly would you be using your guns on in a tyranical situation? To my mind it would be the military. If a Federal law were ever instituted to take away all arms, and the nightmare situation happened to ensue, my bet is it would be part of that military that came after you. (I mean if we really want to discuss nightmare scenarios, we have to also consider miltary deployment on native soil, no picking and choosing the nightmare that makes you excited.) (Assuming this means you all also have some drones and high tech night gear and long range tanks then to actually believe you have ANY impact on detering the US Gov't Military might.)

Now, I also do not follow your logical leap to the military being part of the 'armed' citizenry. If they are not a soldier, they are not a soldier and confined to the same laws as everyone else. Also it is a logical falicy to extend that to imply that armed citizenry is gaining any legitimacy because soldiers are armed.

The same people that were screaming about sequestration cutting military budgets are the same people screaming about taking guns away because they have to defend against tyranny. Again, how does funding the military to the n'th degree square with the NRA wanting to protect us from said military?

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416899 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:37 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Again, how does funding the military to the n'th degree square with the NRA wanting to protect us from said military?

Like I said, I found this little "challenge" to be unserious and flawed. Sorry, but I don't know how to re-phrase my comment in a way which will you find any more clear. Perhaps someone else will feel motivated enough to try.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416900 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:41 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
Can you tell me who you will use your guns against in a fight to stop 'tyranny'? This is the part that confuses me.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416901 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:42 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 51
It's not only about spree shootings. It's about street crime, domestic violence, suicide, and accidents. Every gun out there is a point on a graph that increases the mathematical odds of something unfortunate happening. There are simply too many guns in circulation for our own good. Compare our stats to the rest of the civilized world, it is glaringly obvious. I fail to see how people can not recognize guns as the public health hazard that they are.


What disappoints me about the liberal left is how we manage to muster all kinds of righteous fury over guns or "assault weapons" in the wake of Sandy Hook, while we manage to entirely avoid the deeper, real issues that are laid bare by our problems with violence.

Debating about "assault weapons" only allows us to avoid the REAL questions: Why are Americans so paranoid? Why are we so stressed out? We are we so alienated from one another? Why do we have such an awful, violence-loving streak of sadism in our culture? What are the wider cultural effects of the psychological insecurity that comes from a country with no safety nets or guarantees? What happens when workplaces are designed to turn people against each other? What do these stresses do to our bodies, and to our children? Why are we so scared of crime that we imprison more people than any country in history with the close exception of Stalin's USSR? And when we imprison vast numbers of people from our inner cities, what are the impacts on juvenile crime and gun violence? Does our safety demand we arm ourselves to the teeth? So many relevant questions that desperately need to be talked about in our media.

To our shame, the political question we've chosen to address has nothing to do with the root causes of American paranoia and violence, or how to most effectively achieve public health gains using political resources. No, all we're really doing is having a reactionary, fear-based, NIMBY moral panic over which groups of people belong on which end of the barrel. Fact is, most Americans, including Democrats, are quite happy for Americans to be absurdly over-armed and for that to cost a few kids' lives, so long as it's not their neighbors who have the arsenal and it's not their kids in the firing line. Why? Because other people are scary, whether they're next door or on the other side of the planet.

We need to talk about fear.

Look, the NRA is a successful fundraising machine because of fear. They stoke the fantasies of their target audience to get them to donate. But it's not just them who do it. The Sierra club does it. All kinds of lobbying organizations do it. And it's not just lobbyists either. Private companies use fear to sell their products. Not only guns, but toothpaste and deodorant. The TV news uses fear to keep you tuned in.

This is nothing new. Many people have observed it. But can we please try and figure out why Americans seem so particularly vulnerable to it?

I believe, albeit without much scientific evidence, that Americans are more susceptible to fear as a motivating force than people in, say, Canada or Europe. And I believe that is due to an underlying insecurity in our material conditions. In our personal lives, many of us actually do have a lot to be afraid of. If we felt safer and more secure in a REAL way (not an abstract kind of way in which we feel safe from nebulous boogeymen) then we would be less likely to want to carry guns into libraries, or send robots to vaporize scary Muslims, or accept racial profiling, or forfeit our rights to privacy, or lie prostrate and obedient before Wall Street's demands, or look to the heavens for salvation. We'd be less likely to engage in this CONSTANT scapegoating of whole categories of people as being innately dangerous, like young black men, or immigrants, or gun owners, or Muslims, or Evangelicals, or pot smokers. And we'd be more able to address the things we really ought to be afraid of, like climate change or another huge economic collapse, if those things weren't contextually buried beneath all the BS abstract fears.

Much of this seems obvious and yet goes unaddressed. If you sat down and designed two societies, one in which people's economic security was more guaranteed, in which no one had to worry much about being homeless or going without health care or food, and another in which material security was a competitive free-for-all in which losing means a lifetime of destitution or even death, what would you predict to be the eventual differences between the two cultures? I think it's fairly predictable that the latter would be a culture with much more anxiety, more fear, more guns, harsher religion, more suspicious of outsiders, more xenophobic, more crime, more prisons, harsher penalties, and so forth.

So, I think the focus on the NRA and second amendment fundies and "assault weapons" largely misses the forest for the trees. And it makes me sad to see so much discussion going on and yet not see *anyone* in the media or elsewhere connecting the dots between our culture of paranoid violence and our increasingly predatory brand of capitalism.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416902 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:46 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
Can you tell me who you will use your guns against in a fight to stop 'tyranny'? This is the part that confuses me.

I also think it's absurd to think a few semi-automatic rifles and handguns are going to protect someone from the full might of the US government, or that they need to.

Yet, telling people "you would never win, so you don't need weapons anyway" just feels a bit like "just relax and try to enjoy it."

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416905 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:51 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Yet, telling people "you would never win, so you don't need weapons anyway" just feels a bit like "just relax and try to enjoy it."


I'm not saying that in anyway. I am a gun owner as well, but I also think it is a trumped up stupid argument to make that someone's hunting guns and 100 round .22 is going to stop 'tyranny', like as in a real tyranical gov't.

(Previous post did acknowledge that if they do have drones, military night hud equip, and long range tanks, well then maybe they do have a chance.)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416906 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 5:52 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
....and, if we really want to be prepared for tyranny, then why aren't we all fighting for the right to have IED's?? Those seem most effective in taking on the American military machine.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416908 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 6:05 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
I believe, albeit without much scientific evidence, that Americans are more susceptible to fear as a motivating force than people in, say, Canada or Europe. And I believe that is due to an underlying insecurity in our material conditions. In our personal lives, many of us actually do have a lot to be afraid of.


I believe you are on to something. Our culture is dog eat dog, grow or die, ease up and someone else eats your lunch.

I was reading a thread on METAR about middle class jobs never coming back:

http://boards.fool.com/middle-classincome-jobs-aint-coming-b...

I think this is the future. I also think this trend ultimately leads to the demise of capitalism. Capitalism relies on growth and people constantly striving for a bigger piece of the pie, it works very well. Problem is that near the end if the game we will have a small pool of winners with the whole pie, meanwhile a very large group will be on the outside looking in (and a lot of them will be very well armed).

If tyranny is to be fought in the United States, I suspect it might not be the government that needs to be afraid. This reminds me of a point I made a few weeks ago, virtually every major corporation strictly prohibits firearms and other weapons in company premises or while conducting company business. I wonder what the private sector knows that the public sector has not yet figures out?

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416909 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 6:12 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
So, I think the focus on the NRA and second amendment fundies and "assault weapons" largely misses the forest for the trees. And it makes me sad to see so much discussion going on and yet not see *anyone* in the media or elsewhere connecting the dots between our culture of paranoid violence and our increasingly predatory brand of capitalism.

I really like the connections that you're making, and I'm not disagreeing, BUT I am wondering if you really think this is a problem about capitalism/modernism? Because I have to believe it's been with us for all of human history, and really, a lot of pre-human history as well.

I think we are instinctively paranoid and violent, and also instinctively compassionate and empathetic. I really do think that the answers are all in understanding and manipulating our neurons. Which is really what all the fear-mongering is doing, anyway.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416910 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 6:17 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
That's the thing about "gun nuts" and all the anti-government conspiracy people - they're NOT crazy. They're deluded and painfully misinformed, but not crazy. In fact, they have a lot of reason to feel like the most powerful elements in our society are colluding against them. Because it's true, they ARE. The people who have the most power ARE trying to undermine our economic security, our autonomy, and our democracy. The 2nd Amndmt fundies are just misidentifying the culprits. Obama pegged it when he, speaking about worsening economic conditions and the unraveling of our social contract, said "it's not surprising [that] they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Our system is rotting in a way that creates a people who are stressed to the max, who feel like forces are stacked against them, who feel less control over their own lives, less secure. And we wonder why gun violence is on the rise? Yet, comically, the mainstream left is hell-bent on addressing the problem with gun laws, filling the coffers of the NRA and thus the GOP, and reinforcing the fears of the folks who buy all the guns to being with.

I actually believe that a real resurgence of the left is beginning to take shape, so I'm optimistic in many ways, but the lack of vision I see right now is discouraging.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416912 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 6:42 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
I really like the connections that you're making, and I'm not disagreeing, BUT I am wondering if you really think this is a problem about capitalism/modernism? Because I have to believe it's been with us for all of human history, and really, a lot of pre-human history as well.

I think we are instinctively paranoid and violent, and also instinctively compassionate and empathetic. I really do think that the answers are all in understanding and manipulating our neurons. Which is really what all the fear-mongering is doing, anyway.


I think we naturally respond to different conditions in different ways. So, under certain conditions we are prone to show compassion and empathy to other people, and in other circumstances our brains pressure us to show hostility and fear.

I don't have a lot of answers, but I think what has been with us forever is stress. Different societies and civilizations have existed at different times with different stressors. Overall we're far better off now than at other times in history. We no longer have to worry about whether any of our six children will live past 10, or whether bad weather is going to mean starvation. Or whether guys from the next kingdom are going to come kill us and take our wives.

And because we have fewer of these worries we're less stressed, so we're not as wrapped up in religion, we don't watch public executions or torture for fun, we don't leave our unwanted babies in the forest, etc. But I think we're backsliding. Quality of life is declining, stress is going up, and so we see the effects. I'm reminded of it every time there is an article about a child molester or animal abuser or some such, and I can look below and scroll through all kinds of bloodthirsty revenge fantasies. Or our attitude toward prisons in this country. I think there's a callousness that is new.

The high rates of gun ownership and gun crime is not new. And I think history plays a big part. The entire new world, from Canada to Latin America, is far more comfortable around guns than, say East Asia or Europe. But I think the paranoia is waxing.

I don't think it's a coincidence the way the history of the NRA coincides with the rest of American history. It had been mostly about hunting, conservation and sport shooting. The NRA actually supported the sweeping gun laws passed in 1934 and even 1968. It wasn't until the late 70's and early 80's, right about the time when the radical free-marketeers started revolutionizing the economy during the Carter administration, that they become a Second-Amendment fundamentalist group of zealots, and a fundraising wing of the GOP.

People have reacted with paranoia, alienation and violence to many different kinds of stress throughout human history. I just think now the stress is coming from an eroding of living conditions and lack of security. And it's not only promoting gun violence, but a litany of public health problems as well as things like xenophobia, reactionary politics, and an overall lack of empathy for one another.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: MDGluon Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416913 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 6:49 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
The recent gun control uproar has been very depressing to me. I've watched close friends who are liberals begin acting like -ack- Republicans. The same disregard of facts and details, the same assumptive Everyone Already Knows attitude, the same "if you disagree you must hate babies" garbage.

In part this due, IMO, to the complete intransigence of the right, NRA, Gun Lobby, and the Merchants of Death to have any reasonable controls on weapons, especially lucrative assault weapons and non-sport "defensive guns".

This attitude now for 30+ years has left many people, even gun owners, very frustrated and is radicalizing them; very similar to the years of complete disdain that the lumber industry had towards any sane controls on the over harvesting of our national forests and the last few old growth areas. That blockage, refusal to change or even listen, led eventually to very radical, vocal, and angry groups being formed such as Earth First, etc.

Those groups altered the landscape and forced the issues in many ways, for better or worse....now the lumber industry talks, a little anyway.

The NRA/Gun Lobby/Paranoid Gun Fringe/Merchants of Death are creating a similar toxic landscape...and they will not win in the end (IMO), they are a minority in reality and although $$$$ can block a lot a things it cannot block everything.

A democracy works by compromise and talking out issues and the result if done early and without the toxic baggage is usually something in the middle that nobody likes yet everyone can live with.

This is one of several subjects where due to greed (and it is greed mostly) rational controls to lower the incidence of injury and death is anathema and one side, and it is one sided, refuses to budge and inch or do that horrible thing called "compromise".

Your friends are not acting like Republicans per se; they are becoming radicalized from frustration and a strong desire to see progress.

Just my thinking though as a rational gun owner who believes assault weapons really something we do want to both control and know who has them.

md

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: SooozFool Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416914 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 6:50 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
I also think it's absurd to think a few semi-automatic rifles and handguns are going to protect someone from the full might of the US government, or that they need to.

Yet, telling people "you would never win, so you don't need weapons anyway" just feels a bit like "just relax and try to enjoy it."


Does it?

Imagine your mother, wife, sister, daughter relaxing and enjoying rape, whilst you are pouting that you couldn't get the particular firearm you wanted.

Still feel a bit like the same thing?

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416915 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 7:02 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 7
Imagine your mother, wife, sister, daughter relaxing and enjoying rape, whilst you are pouting that you couldn't get the particular firearm you wanted.

Still feel a bit like the same thing?



See, this is just the kind of uncharitable nastiness I'm talking about.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416916 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 7:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 8
Ziege19: "Our system is rotting in a way that creates a people who are stressed to the max, who feel like forces are stacked against them, who feel less control over their own lives, less secure. And we wonder why gun violence is on the rise? Yet, comically, the mainstream left is hell-bent on addressing the problem with gun laws, filling the coffers of the NRA and thus the GOP, and reinforcing the fears of the folks who buy all the guns to being with."

Perhaps largely because the right for three plus decades now has not only not passed but has dismantled or attempted to dismantle social and welfare programs that ameliorate the stree and insecurity about which you are writing. Apart from Obamacare (which for the most part passed overing the screaming objections of msot of the right), have there been any significant social or welfare programs create for US taxpayers?

Family and Medical Leave Act? job protection is nice, but unpaid leave for more than a few weeks often plays havoc with fmaily finances.

Americans with Disabilities Act?

I am hard pressed to name much else; perhaps you have a bigger list?

medical care, vacation, leave, etc. - There is no U.S. equivalent to the European Social Charter.

"The Charter . . . guarantees positive rights and freedoms which concern all individuals in their daily existence. The basic rights set out in the Charter are as follows: housing, health, education, labour rights, employment, parental leave, social and legal protection, from poverty and social exclusion free movement of persons and non-discrimination, and also the rights of migrant workers and of the persons with disabilities."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Social_Charter

Many of such programs would be just as much anathema to the right as an gun control measure.

Regards, JAFO

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416917 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 7:21 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 10
Perhaps largely because the right for three plus decades now has not only not passed but has dismantled or attempted to dismantle social and welfare programs that ameliorate the stree and insecurity about which you are writing. Apart from Obamacare (which for the most part passed overing the screaming objections of msot of the right), have there been any significant social or welfare programs create for US taxpayers?

Absolutely. The culprits behind this movement are mostly the powerful folks who don't want to share their domination of society with a democracy. Democracy is a threat to them. And social programs help keep the rest of us from depending on them for our sustenance.

So, they've attacked democracy directly by rebranding it "big government". And two of the most important weapons in their arsenal have been fear and resentment. Get people afraid of the government, and get them resenting each other and you're off to the races.

You create people who look at teachers with government benefits and say not "why don't I have what they have" but instead cry out with incoherent resentment "why don't they have to suffer like me." And there you have it, fertile ground in which to grow nice, obedient, cowed workers who can be relied upon to tolerate an infinite cycle of "do more, get less."

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416920 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 7:32 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
People have reacted with paranoia, alienation and violence to many different kinds of stress throughout human history. I just think now the stress is coming from an eroding of living conditions and lack of security. And it's not only promoting gun violence, but a litany of public health problems as well as things like xenophobia, reactionary politics, and an overall lack of empathy for one another.

I think I have posted before, how much I heartily agree that stress (I think I've put it as competition for resources) makes us treat each other worse. It's rare to find a person who was raised in, and still lives in, a safe, loving environment who regularly behaves with viciousness and cruelty (rare but not unheard of or course).

I'm reminded of it every time there is an article about a child molester or animal abuser or some such, and I can look below and scroll through all kinds of bloodthirsty revenge fantasies. Or our attitude toward prisons in this country. I think there's a callousness that is new.

But this is what I don't think is new. Nobody used to think it was wrong to rape children, or beat them or kill them. Nobody used to blink an eye at slavery. They used to torture people for sport in Rome and the whole city came out to watch. Wholesome family fun!

It seems to me that we have, as a species, come a long way ethically.
Not far enough, but a long way. Maybe it is two steps forward and one step back, and we're in the middle of a big step back right now, but I don't think we've gotten worse overall.

6

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416921 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 7:52 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I think we are instinctively paranoid and violent, and also instinctively compassionate and empathetic. I really do think that the answers are all in understanding and manipulating our neurons. Which is really what all the fear-mongering is doing, anyway.

Monks actually spend YEARS learning how to meditate and not freak out. American culture teaches you to race down the highway at 110mph to flip off the guy who changed lanes in front of you.

We have issues.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: Ziege19 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416922 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 8:09 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
But this is what I don't think is new. Nobody used to think it was wrong to rape children, or beat them or kill them. Nobody used to blink an eye at slavery. They used to torture people for sport in Rome and the whole city came out to watch. Wholesome family fun!

I agree, it's two steps forward one step back. And true, we are more sensitized to violence than we have been in the past. But don't forget, our living standards and relative levels of safety have gone way up too. During those times when we've felt most scared, we're still quite capable of some horrific things. By a lot of measures, the 20th century was the most bloody in our history. We don't put heads on spikes outside of city hall anymore, but we've got concentration camps and chemical weapons. As for slavery, I've heard it said that we are currently in a golden age of slavery, with more people enslaved now than ever, and humans fetching rock-bottom prices. I also have a sad feeling that if we were to draw, quarter and disembowel Jerry Sandusky in a public execution, the ticket sales would not be zero. And I truly do believe we are much more desensitized to violence now than we have been in a long time.

Yet, we're the safest people ever. We have less to worry about than we have in almost any other period in human history. Nevertheless, so many of us feel like we need a fortress mentality where every other person is a threat to be neutralized or an obstacle to be gotten around. I truly think capitalist consumer culture is at the heart of this and actively seeks to repress our spirit of brotherhood, community and cooperation.

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416924 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 9:18 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Again, how does funding the military to the n'th degree square with the NRA wanting to protect us from said military?



shifting to NRA makes the question too simple...

NRA is lobby-arm of gun industry: they want to sell arms and ammo to both sides...



what the guy with bare arms and and arsenal in the basement is thinking --dunno

Print the post Back To Top
Author: discurro Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416925 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 9:29 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
But this is what I don't think is new. Nobody used to think it was wrong to rape children, or beat them or kill them. Nobody used to blink an eye at slavery. They used to torture people for sport in Rome and the whole city came out to watch. Wholesome family fun!

It seems to me that we have, as a species, come a long way ethically.


You might want to read "The Rational Optimist" by Matt Ridley. He has a lot of similar thoughts and his explanation as to why. I am about half way through it and enjoying it so far.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Rational-Optimist-P-S-ebook/dp/B00...

Print the post Back To Top
Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416927 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/23/2013 9:51 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
I agree with him. Your gun(s) won't protect you. It's the institutions we have created in this country that will protect us. Unless we allow things like the Patriot Acts to dismantle them.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416947 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/24/2013 12:08 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Yet, we're the safest people ever. We have less to worry about than we have in almost any other period in human history. Nevertheless, so many of us feel like we need a fortress mentality where every other person is a threat to be neutralized or an obstacle to be gotten around. I truly think capitalist consumer culture is at the heart of this and actively seeks to repress our spirit of brotherhood, community and cooperation.

Well we SORT of have less to worry about...our world has become a lot bigger with TV and the interwebz. So now instead of worrying about the roof and the fire, I get to worry about the Taliban and Mali rebels and the Syrian army and the Real Housewives and this post and the president and work and what my peers think of my life choices etc etc.

I still maintain that we are programmed to stress out.

6

Print the post Back To Top
Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416949 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/24/2013 12:12 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Yes, in exactly the same way. Your point?

I do speak about righties in exactly the same way righties speak about progressives. I hope you've noticed.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416950 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/24/2013 12:13 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
This, despite the fact that handguns are statistically the most dangerous weapons and by far the most common murder weapons - even in cases of mass murder.

I've posted to that very issue.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416961 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/24/2013 1:31 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
I do speak about righties in exactly the same way righties speak about progressives. I hope you've noticed.

Whether or not your posts are balanced doesn't really concern me and certainly has little bearing on this discussion. I still have no idea what your point was.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 416962 of 444950
Subject: Re: Contradiction? Gun ownership v. Military bud Date: 1/24/2013 1:33 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Someone is really using some trollish ways that seem to be consistent now in this thread.

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (53) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement