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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195642  
Subject: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 12:37 PM
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Honest concern for others is the key factor in improving our day to day lives. When you are warm-hearted, there is no room for anger, jealousy or insecurity. A calm mind and self-confidence are the basis for happy and peaceful relations with each other. Healthy, happy families and a healthy peaceful nation are dependent on warm-heartedness.

- Dalai Lama


Not a Christian, of course. But the human I know of that comes closest to what I believe a Christian is supposed to be.


Frydaze1
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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184045 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 3:49 PM
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But the human I know of that comes closest to what I believe a Christian is supposed to be.

Did you go to Christian religious education growing up?

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184047 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 4:08 PM
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Not a Christian, of course. But the human I know of that comes closest to what I believe a Christian is supposed to be.

I used to think that. Now, I'm just not sure what a Christian is supposed to be.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184049 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 4:20 PM
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I used to think that. Now, I'm just not sure what a Christian is supposed to be.

Oooh! Oooh! Call on me!!

They should be cheesemakers (so they will inherit the earth).

Oh no...wait...wrong version.

They should be meek. (Quiet, gentle, unassuming.) They should love thy neighbors as thyselves. They should not cast stones (literally, and I would think figuratively as well) unless they are without sin. They should give their cloaks to those in need (the "cloak" being a literary device; the giving is not limited to cloaks). Plus some other laudable things.

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184054 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 4:39 PM
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They should be meek. (Quiet, gentle, unassuming.) They should love thy neighbors as thyselves. They should not cast stones (literally, and I would think figuratively as well) unless they are without sin. They should give their cloaks to those in need (the "cloak" being a literary device; the giving is not limited to cloaks). Plus some other laudable things.

You see, you can't just pull a few verses out of one book and say there it is. You have to take the entire set of scripture, tradition and practice, and put it all together into a coherent belief system. It takes many years of training and study. Your average man in the street simply does not have the training, study and, quite frankly, the aptitude to perform such a complicated feat. That’s why you need us to explain it to you, in small bites, every week, for the rest of your lives.

Signed,
Your local clergy.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184056 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 4:44 PM
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You have to take the entire set of scripture, tradition and practice, and put it all together into a coherent belief system.

Which is why if I did have any tendencies to supernatural belief I would be a deist. If I try to merge the OT with the bits I quoted, they don't fit.

That’s why you need us to explain it to you, in small bites, every week, for the rest of your lives.

Signed,
Your local clergy.


:-)

(Actually, although you were being snarky I thought you encapsulated the general topic of religion extremely well; very succinctly. That's not trivial to do.)

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184057 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 4:48 PM
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Which is why if I did have any tendencies to supernatural belief I would be a deist. If I try to merge the OT with the bits I quoted, they don't fit.

My favorite thing about being a Christian is being forever lectured to by atheists about what a Christian should be.
Ray

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184058 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 5:00 PM
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Did you go to Christian religious education growing up?

What an odd question. I'm not sure I understand the purpose of it.

No, I was raised as an atheist. I became a Christian as an adult and spent a good decade doing quite serious bible study. My favorite modern day commentators were Chuck Missler www.khouse.org/ for the in depth studies of prophesy and apologetics, and Gayle Erwin www.servant.org for the study of the attributes of god in each of his three manifestations. Mr. Erwin's book "The Jesus Style" is, imo, the most honest, loving, thorough, practical study of the person of Jesus I've come across and how to apply that to one's daily life.

So what was the purpose of the question?


Frydaze1

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184060 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 5:45 PM
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What an odd question. I'm not sure I understand the purpose of it.

Because I cannot understand how someone can think that the Dalai Lama's quote is what is a Christian is supposed to be. I predicted that your answer would be no and that your impression of Christianity came from an outsider perspective - from the advertising and PR, essentially.

From my perspective being taught Catholicism as a youngster, people's concern for others has little to do with Christianity. When trying to demarcate the borders between Christianity and non-Christianity the church leaders came up with the Nicene creed in the early 300s. It defined Christian beliefs. If they even attempted to come up with a creed defining Christian behavior (I'm unaware of any such attempt) they haven't succeeded in more than fifteen hundred years. In short, the Nicene creed only addresses what positions people had to hold regarding God and Jesus and so on. Honest concern for others isn't a part of it at all. If you had no honest concern for others whatsoever, but acted charitably toward others on a selfish risk-reward basis for heaven over hell, you wouldn't have any sins to confess. You would be doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing.





So what was the purpose of the question?

To check to see if my guess about how 'honest concern for others' could be considered synonymous with 'Christianity' (as opposed to incidental) was correct. Also, to strongly disagree with the equality between the two.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184061 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 5:52 PM
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I used to think that. Now, I'm just not sure what a Christian is supposed to be.

Considering how fractured the religion is, I'm not surprised.

But I didn't find Buddhist on what is a very extensive list of interpretations of what a "Christian" is, so I'm guessing not the Dali Lama.

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184062 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 6:03 PM
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Because I cannot understand how someone can think that the Dalai Lama's quote is what is a Christian is supposed to be. I predicted that your answer would be no and that your impression of Christianity came from an outsider perspective - from the advertising and PR, essentially.

I see. Well then I'm glad I could correct your misapprehension of my knowledge of Christianity.


From my perspective being taught Catholicism as a youngster, people's concern for others has little to do with Christianity. When trying to demarcate the borders between Christianity and non-Christianity the church leaders came up with the Nicene creed in the early 300s. It defined Christian beliefs. If they even attempted to come up with a creed defining Christian behavior (I'm unaware of any such attempt) they haven't succeeded in more than fifteen hundred years. In short, the Nicene creed only addresses what positions people had to hold regarding God and Jesus and so on. Honest concern for others isn't a part of it at all. If you had no honest concern for others whatsoever, but acted charitably toward others on a selfish risk-reward basis for heaven over hell, you wouldn't have any sins to confess. You would be doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing.


And I believe most of the Protestant Christians on this board would disagree with you that the Cathlolic definition of Christianity is universally correct. Though I'm not surprised that as a Catholic, raised in Catholicism, you were taught to believe that.

Actually, I'd like lhaselden's opinion on this.

lhaselden:

In your opinion as a Christian, if you treat others well only because you know you have to in order to get to heaven, but you don't honestly in your heart make any attempt to care about others nor think you should, do you believe that is in line with what Jesus taught?

I'm not asking if you think that would get the person into heaven. That's a separate question. But do you believe that the actions are the more important Christian core value than the attitudes?


Frydaze1

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184063 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 6:06 PM
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But I didn't find Buddhist on what is a very extensive list of interpretations of what a "Christian" is, so I'm guessing not the Dali Lama.

How shallow. I didn't see "Catholic" on there either. Or Mormon. Or Baptist. Or Lutheran. Or Episcopalian. If a title is all that concerns you, Jesus wasn't called a Christian.

I'm not saying that he IS a Christian. After all, that requires that one confess Jesus as their savior. And clearly he wouldn't. But I'm saying he embodies most of the WWJD philosophy better than anyone else I know of.


Frydaze1

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184064 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 6:25 PM
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Well then I'm glad I could correct your misapprehension of my knowledge of Christianity.

I don't think you corrected it - I think you confirmed it. A child can be ordered to learn about and/or adopt Christianity without it having to be sold to them. An adult cannot - it must be sold to them before they consider themselves a Christian.


And I believe most of the Protestant Christians on this board would disagree with you that the Cathlolic definition of Christianity is universally correct.

It's not just Catholicism. Read this board's FAQ, for example.

http://boards.fool.com/christian-fools-faq-17032257.aspx

Or follow its link that answers What does the term "Christian" really mean?
http://boards.fool.com/some-christian-essentials-15915000.as...

I don't see anything about caring for the welfare of others in either post. It's something that a Christian can certainly do - like root for the Yankees or prefer bananas over apples. It isn't necessarily part of Christianity any more than those are.

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184065 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 6:39 PM
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I don't think you corrected it - I think you confirmed it. A child can be ordered to learn about and/or adopt Christianity without it having to be sold to them. An adult cannot - it must be sold to them before they consider themselves a Christian.


Wait... what?!?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. It sounds an awful lot like you're saying that the only way to have deeply held Christian beliefs and understanding is to have it shoved at you before you're old enough to reason for yourself. Is that it?

Also, we weren't discussing faith. We were discussing knowledge. Are you saying that only a child who isn't old enough to have any life experience or strong opinions of their own is capable of a thorough study of Christianity? An adult, who already has opinions, can't learn more about Christianity and what the bible says than a child in grammar school, but actually will learn less?

Seriously? If you weren't raised to believe in it, you'll never understand it?

That's a *really* dangerous statement to make. Granted, most atheists would agree that anyone who weren't brainwashed before they knew better wouldn't ever buy into it. But I'm shocked to hear you saying so.


Frydaze1 <--- will read your links and reply later... but doesn't consider this board a higher authority than the bible on what the bible says

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184066 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 6:47 PM
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It's not just Catholicism. Read this board's FAQ, for example.

http://boards.fool.com/christian-fools-faq-17032257.aspx


Okay... it starts out with the following disclaimer:
What follows is strictly my own opinion and not the official view of any group.

So if you're pointing to that as the universally accepted list of What It Means To Be Christian, it's already not going to fly. Even the author doesn't claim it to be that.

And his definition basically says that if you have had a personal experience of God, you are a True Christian. Okay, fine. He also says there is no way to make such a judgement of anyone else since you can't see into their heart. Which means you can't possibly define it by works. In fact, it also means that it is defined more by attitude than action. I believe I brought that up a couple of posts back. Doing the right thing because you want to go to heaven, rather than because you truly understand why it is right.



Frydaze1

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184067 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 6:54 PM
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So now in the interest of finding out how other Christians think a christian should behave, and whether or not the Dalai Lama's quote embodies that, I've done a Google search: How should a christian behave

Here's an excerpt from the first link:
http://www.cbm.org.uk/lft_christian.htm

How should a Christian relate to this world?
The prayer of Jesus for his disciples was not that they should be taken out of the world, but that they should be protected from evil (John 17:15). The Christian life has to be lived "in the world"; that is, in a society which is organised according to human principles.

Wherever possible, a Christian will:

live at peace with everyone (Romans 12:18);
respect and obey those in authority (Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13-17);
give everyone what is owed to them (Romans 13:7).


So clearly they consider peace with others to be important.


Link 2:
http://www.wikihow.com/Act-Like-a-Christian-in-Any-Circumsta...
Step 1) Love God above all else even to the point of becoming selfless--so that you can give to others
Step 2) Have undying faith in God never wavering (waffling and wavering is doubt).
Step 3)Love others as you love yourself. That includes people you may not like or get along with. Do not hate.
Step 4) Do good. Not to have a bigger treasure in heaven, but because you want to do good/right. You glorify God every time you do a good deed or perform an act of kindness, since you are one of his children.



Link 4:
http://www.100prophecies.org/things.htm
10 things Christians can do everyday
1. Treat others as you would have them treat you
Treat other people in the way that you want them to treat you. This is a hallmark of Christianity. Be kind to people, even when they are unkind to you. That way, you set an example for them, and you become a representative of the Christian faith.

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you"
- Jesus, as quoted in Matthew 7:12a, NIV translation.


2. Help people
In Matthew 25:34-40, Jesus tells us that we are to give food to those who are hungry, give clothes to people who need them, provide shelter for people who have none, visit people who are sick, and give comfort to people who are in prison.



Do I have to keep going? Compassion and kindness toward others and selflessness seem to be a common thread.


Frydaze1

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184068 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 7:01 PM
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And let me clarify, in case it didn't stand out enough when I said it before:

I'm aware that accepting Christ as your savior is the definition of being a Christian, and that the Dalai Lama wouldn't qualify. But I'm speaking of his attitude and behavior and his teachings about how to treat people, which he demonstrates in his own life.

Of course I wouldn't call that Christian either. I don't believe it requires a belief in Christ to behave that way, and the Dalai Lama is proof of it.

I'm simply saying that it is how I believe Christians are told to behave. And he exemplifies it better than anyone I know of.

(The fact that you don't agree this is how Christians are supposed to behave probably explains a lot about why many of us don't see that behavior in so many Christians.)


Frydaze1

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184069 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 7:56 PM
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It's not just Catholicism. Read this board's FAQ, for example.

http://boards.fool.com/christian-fools-faq-17032257.aspx

Okay... it starts out with the following disclaimer:



someone will correct me if wrong, but ,iirc, said poster is one who hung out at AF & became semi-converted.


.....FWIW

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184070 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 7:58 PM
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But I didn't find Buddhist on what is a very extensive list of interpretations of what a "Christian" is, so I'm guessing not the Dali Lama.



there's a longer list ... that includes the story that Jesus traveled to India as a teen and became Buddhist ... so if Jesus was Buddhist, Dali Lama can be Christian.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184071 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 8:06 PM
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The fact that you don't agree this is how Christians are supposed to behave probably explains a lot about why many of us don't see that behavior in so many Christians

How's that? You are having a discussion with an atheist.

The reason why more Christians don't love their neighbor is that it requires a heart transplant.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184072 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 8:26 PM
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. It sounds an awful lot like you're saying that the only way to have deeply held Christian beliefs and understanding is to have it shoved at you before you're old enough to reason for yourself. Is that it?

No, and it's my fault because I've been articulating it poorly. I haven't really emphasized what I mean.

When a Christian leader is talking to non-Christians - a TV reporter, a potential convert, or whatever - they are not trying to educate them on Christianity. They are trying to sell it and paint it in a positive light. Feeding the poor, fellowship, etc. get emphasized; explaining baptism or the trinity are not going to be discussed unless asked about. So growing up with the majority (or entirety) of your exposure to Christianity being the sales job given to outsiders, I would expect you to absorb that sales job as describing things central to Christianity.

Children being sent to religious instruction are being sent to be educated on Christian doctrine (i.e., indoctrination.) They don't have to be sold on it. It's the difference between a salesman trying to convince you to use their product and an instructor trying to teach employees how to operate, build, or repair the product. The doctrine that is presented doesn't include honest concern for others as foundational. It can't. The Christian Bible includes 60+ books with Jesus being a central character in only 4 of them.

The only consistency in the books about what characteristic people should have is obedience. Adam and Eve receive an order to not eat an apple of knowledge; they are punished for not obeying. Abraham receives an order to slay his son; he is rewarded for trying to follow it. Jesus orders you to feed the poor; you will be rewarded for trying to follow that order. If concern for others were foundational, Abraham would certainly not be rewarded for valuing obedience over concern for his own son's life. If concern for others were foundational, the entire human race would not be punished for disobeying an order that had nothing to do with concern for others (eating a fruit of knowledge.) Heck, if God's concern was for the welfare of others (Adam & Eve), put the potentially harmful fruit in a garden several light years away from them so they can't eat it. But that wasn't the concern.


I'm aware that accepting Christ as your savior is the definition of being a Christian, and that the Dalai Lama wouldn't qualify. But I'm speaking of his attitude and behavior and his teachings about how to treat people, which he demonstrates in his own life.

Of course I wouldn't call that Christian either. I don't believe it requires a belief in Christ to behave that way, and the Dalai Lama is proof of it.


Then we're pretty much agreed.


I'm simply saying that it is how I believe Christians are told to behave.

I think you can only make that case if you ignore all but 4 books of the Bible.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184073 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 9:53 PM
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How shallow. I didn't see "Catholic" on there either. Or Mormon. Or Baptist. Or Lutheran. Or Episcopalian. If a title is all that concerns you, Jesus wasn't called a Christian.

Well, that's just plain ignorant. They're all on the list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations...

Sorry if my comment sailed over your head, but it wasn't directed to you.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184074 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/8/2012 10:04 PM
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there's a longer list ... that includes the story that Jesus traveled to India as a teen and became Buddhist ... so if Jesus was Buddhist, Dali Lama can be Christian.

Yeah...I find that one kind of a long stretch. Commingling of ideas isn't though, and the guys who wrote the bible certainly had access to Buddhist thoughts.

Ghandi was another christ-like figure.

Here's a cool article that kind of addresses the whole thing, good, bad, and ugly.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/no-2-rel...

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184075 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 12:02 AM
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<<
lhaselden:

In your opinion as a Christian, if you treat others well only because you know you have to in order to get to heaven, but you don't honestly in your heart make any attempt to care about others nor think you should, do you believe that is in line with what Jesus taught?

I'm not asking if you think that would get the person into heaven. That's a separate question. But do you believe that the actions are the more important Christian core value than the attitudes?
>>

If you do everything you think you are supposed to do in order to go to heaven and have no concern for your fellow man then you are similar to what Jesus described as white washed tombs filled with dead men's bones.

The apostle Paul expressed it very well:
1 Corinthians 13
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

We cannot do to get to heaven, we do because of our love for God and our love for others. One of my favorite passages is Matthew 25.. parable of sheep and goats. If you read it notice that those who did well and those who did not help others... neither knew the instances that the Lord had noticed. When you serve others out of love you keep no record of the act, it is from the heart, you are not seeking repayment nor reward. Those that do not love often do not notice the suffering of others unless another brings it to their attention.

Mark 12:32-34
New King James Version (NKJV)

32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul,[a] and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184076 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 12:15 AM
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<<
I'm aware that accepting Christ as your savior is the definition of being a Christian.
>>

I could make a case that Christ accepting me is more important than me accepting Him.... purification from our sins requires the blood of Christ, living as he lived requires His Spirit within us.... both of those come with His acceptance of us...

We need to repent and many other things... but all of those things do not save us, HE saves and HE knows those who are HIS and part of that is HIS decision... not any actions or thinking on our part.

Romans 8
If you do not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184077 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 12:20 AM
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The reason why more Christians don't love their neighbor is that it requires a heart transplant.
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?


Romans 2:
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184080 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 8:47 AM
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When a Christian leader is talking to non-Christians - a TV reporter, a potential convert, or whatever - they are not trying to educate them on Christianity. They are trying to sell it and paint it in a positive light. Feeding the poor, fellowship, etc. get emphasized; explaining baptism or the trinity are not going to be discussed unless asked about. So growing up with the majority (or entirety) of your exposure to Christianity being the sales job given to outsiders, I would expect you to absorb that sales job as describing things central to Christianity.

This is a tangent to your comment, but I think it is important to the central point of what a 'true Christian' is.
We were actually commanded not to run around telling everyone about our good works. This is the dilemma of the Christian reputation in 2012. If a man strangles his family and says that God made Him do it, it makes the news. If a woman drowns her kids and says God told her to do it, it makes the news. If a man sees Jesus in his toast, it makes the news.

When a man gives up his six figure executive position to start a rural homeless shelter or a woman finishes her medical education and turns down a high paid job to go to Africa and they believe God led them to, it is far less compelling.
Ray

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184081 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 9:31 AM
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If you do everything you think you are supposed to do in order to go to heaven and have no concern for your fellow man then you are similar to what Jesus described as white washed tombs filled with dead men's bones.



I wonder, then, how any Christian could possibly be a Republican.

AM

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184082 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 9:52 AM
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I wonder, then, how any Christian could possibly be a Republican.

AM

======================
Those are mostly the ones focused on abortion or gay marriage, ignoring the rest of the issues in the world.

Bill

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184083 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 10:09 AM
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<<
I wonder, then, how any Christian could possibly be a Republican.

AM
>>

Those is the religious right wonder the same thing about being a Democrat. But then most of them consider a fetus our fellow man.

A Christian can be a socialist, a capitalist, a republican, a democrat, a monarchist... possibly an anarchist of the non violent variety. Our church has people who were passionate against President Obama and passionate for President Obama.

I do not wonder how a Christian could be a Republican... I do wonder how a Christian could be a politician of either party.....

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184084 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 10:45 AM
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Those are mostly the ones focused on abortion or gay marriage, ignoring the rest of the issues in the world.

But I'm pretty sure Jesus never spoke of either.

If your entire belief system is based on one person (Jesus the Christ), how can they ignore what he said and focus on bits from "the old covenant"? Shouldn't the focus be on the four books he appears in since that is where his "teachings" are?

1poorguy

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184085 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 10:56 AM
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Here's a cool article that kind of addresses the whole thing, good, bad, and ugly.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/no-2-rel......


Enjoyed the article. Thanks. This was interesting to me:

When people surrender their hearts to Christ and discover sin’s grip can be broken, they will not settle for a lofty religion that complicates life and brings no deliverance. Freedom does not always come instantly without trials, but people know it surely comes to broken hearts longing for their “Maker.”

Alternatively some folks prefer to feel safe in the groupthink of organized belief, and uniformly follow something called Christianity or some other religion. One way demands death to pride, the other offers the standard feel-good-about-myself religious experience and self-gratification with group membership in a club of sorts.

The idea that the God of the universe can be bribed with good works, piety, rituals and traditions has widespread acceptance, and millions are shackled and controlled by the idea, which the clergy easily manipulates.


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Author: MetroChick Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184086 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 11:08 AM
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Not a Christian, of course. But the human I know of that comes closest to what I believe a Christian is supposed to be.

So a Christian should be someone who doesn't have choice in the world in what religion they are or what their purpose in life should be, and instead should be told at the age of 3 who others believe he is and therefore be raised to fill that belief, as the current Dalai Lama was?

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184087 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 11:19 AM
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When a Christian leader is talking to non-Christians - a TV reporter, a potential convert, or whatever - they are not trying to educate them on Christianity. They are trying to sell it and paint it in a positive light. Feeding the poor, fellowship, etc. get emphasized; explaining baptism or the trinity are not going to be discussed unless asked about. So growing up with the majority (or entirety) of your exposure to Christianity being the sales job given to outsiders, I would expect you to absorb that sales job as describing things central to Christianity.

Children being sent to religious instruction are being sent to be educated on Christian doctrine (i.e., indoctrination.) They don't have to be sold on it. It's the difference between a salesman trying to convince you to use their product and an instructor trying to teach employees how to operate, build, or repair the product. The doctrine that is presented doesn't include honest concern for others as foundational. It can't. The Christian Bible includes 60+ books with Jesus being a central character in only 4 of them.
...
>>>I'm simply saying that it is how I believe Christians are told to behave.<<<

I think you can only make that case if you ignore all but 4 books of the Bible.



-------
- So in your opinion, a decade of intense bible study, using discussions with pastors, concordances, lexicons, commentaries, analysis, and reason is useless. It is less informative than childhood indoctrination, and is no more meaningful that the PR pitch of a TV salesman. Even the commentary authors and the pastors who grew up as Christians, the sons and grandsons and great grandsons of Christians. Their interpretations and understandings are also just shallow PR pitches.


- We're discussing being a Christian, right? That is A Follower of Christ. How can you say that the definition of how to be A Follower of Christ has very little to do with Jesus the Christ?


- Depending on your school of thought, many believe that the entire bible is about Jesus, even the books written before his birth in a manger.


- So let's clear this up. You're bringing up the Old Testament.Adam and Eve, Abraham and such. Are you considering the laws in the Old Testament to be still relevant or not? I mean, talk to me again about shellfish, and the corners of your clothing, and how you're growing out your sideburns. Otherwise we should stick to the New Testament when defining A Follower of Christ, and only bring in the Old Testament where the New Testament says to, right? Pick a side of that fence, please.


- Jesus was asked about the commandments:
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


The word used in 22:39 is agapao:
1) of persons
a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing


That is clearly speaking of attitude, not mere action. And it also clearly conflicts with your statements here:
I don't see anything about caring for the welfare of others in either post. It's something that a Christian can certainly do - like root for the Yankees or prefer bananas over apples. It isn't necessarily part of Christianity any more than those are.
...
Honest concern for others isn't a part of it at all. If you had no honest concern for others whatsoever, but acted charitably toward others on a selfish risk-reward basis for heaven over hell, you wouldn't have any sins to confess. You would be doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing.


I realize your childhood indoctrination taught you that. But it conflicts with what Jesus was reported to have said about what is important.



Frydaze1

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184088 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 11:23 AM
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So a Christian should be someone who doesn't have choice in the world in what religion they are or what their purpose in life should be, and instead should be told at the age of 3 who others believe he is and therefore be raised to fill that belief, as the current Dalai Lama was?

Funny you should ask. That is precisely wheat benjd25 appears to be saying.


But no amount of childhood indoctrination will create a loving attitude. The Dalai Lama has that, regardless of which religion he was raised in or what happened when he was three. And that loving attitude is what I believe a Christian should also have.


Frydaze1

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184089 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 11:49 AM
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<<
Shouldn't the focus be on the four books he appears in since that is where his "teachings" are?
>>

Actually the focus should be on Jesus, not the 4 books. Some try to memorize the gospels or the NT. Jesus living in us and we in Him is the goal of a Christian life, if we live in Him now we may live in Him forever.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184092 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 4:07 PM
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How can you say that the definition of how to be A Follower of Christ has very little to do with Jesus the Christ?

It's math. 4 out of 66. Or - at best - 1 out of 3.





So let's clear this up. You're bringing up the Old Testament.Adam and Eve, Abraham and such. Are you considering the laws in the Old Testament to be still relevant or not?

Yes. How many Christians say that the Ten Commandments (law from the Old Testament) don't apply any more? I was the only one arguing that they were no longer relevant on this board, against a bunch of Christians.

http://boards.fool.com/well-i-thought-no-one-was-coming-for-...




Otherwise we should stick to the New Testament when defining A Follower of Christ

I agree....but Christianity doesn't stick to the New Testament.



That is clearly speaking of attitude, not mere action. And it also clearly conflicts with your statements here:

I don't see anything about caring for the welfare of others in either post. It's something that a Christian can certainly do - like root for the Yankees or prefer bananas over apples. It isn't necessarily part of Christianity any more than those are.


Which post includes your excerpt - the FAQ or the defining Christianity one? I cannot find it in either after re-reading nor using the browser search function. I can find Matthew 23 cited but not Matthew 22.

I don't see any conflict with my words.

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184094 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 5:01 PM
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I'm seriously getting the feeling that we're not on the same planet. Let me see if I can at least ask the right questions to get some clarity...


How can you say that the definition of how to be A Follower of Christ has very little to do with Jesus the Christ?

It's math. 4 out of 66. Or - at best - 1 out of 3.



Math? Can we discuss word definitions here? Christian means Follower of Christ, right? Do we agree on that much? Can I at least hope so and move on to the next part?

It doesn't matter how many books have to do with Jesus. It has nothing to do with math. If you're a follower of Jesus, things that have to do with Jesus should be pretty close to the top of the list of things to read when determining how best to be a follower of Jesus.
If we're going to go by book count, you're right. Jesus evidently doesn't matter much at all. Pure math. Are you seriously saying that as a christian you think Jesus is only a minor bit part, because he isn't in as many books?
Mary is in even fewer. And yet most Catholics consider her pretty important. But by math, she's next to nothing.
In fact, let's ignore book count math and instead use word count math. That should get us some really great stuff.
The the KJV, "Mary" (including mother of Jesus, Magdalene, sister of Lazarus, mother of James the lesser, sister of Barnabas, and some bit player Paul says hello to) is only 54 times. 46 verses.
By contrast, "ass" (as in donkey) is mentioned 96 times in 93 verses.
According to your "math", an ass is twice as important as *all* Marys in the bible. Assuming even half of those are the Virgin Mary, that would make the ass four times as important as the Virgin Mary.
Still want to stick with your "math" interpretation of importance?


So let's clear this up. You're bringing up the Old Testament.Adam and Eve, Abraham and such. Are you considering the laws in the Old Testament to be still relevant or not?

Yes. How many Christians say that the Ten Commandments (law from the Old Testament) don't apply any more? I was the only one arguing that they were no longer relevant on this board, against a bunch of Christians.


I was willing to go with the idea that any part of the old testament mentioned in the new was fair game. If you want to argue that all of it is still relevant, great! Again, please tell me about how you follow the 613 laws in the old testament.



That is clearly speaking of attitude, not mere action. And it also clearly conflicts with your statements here:

I don't see anything about caring for the welfare of others in either post. It's something that a Christian can certainly do - like root for the Yankees or prefer bananas over apples. It isn't necessarily part of Christianity any more than those are.

Which post includes your excerpt - the FAQ or the defining Christianity one? I cannot find it in either after re-reading nor using the browser search function. I can find Matthew 23 cited but not Matthew 22.

I don't see any conflict with my words.



I'm quoting the words of Jesus in the bible. Are you claiming that the TMF Christian Fools FAQ is more important than the bible? Are you claiming that the words of Jesus in the bible aren't relevant to what Jesus, son of God, thinks his followers should do?

I want to be really clear on this. So please don't avoid it or ask what other sources:
Do you think that the words of Jesus, as reported in the bible, are irrelevant to how God wants you to behave as a Christian?


Frydaze1

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184096 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 5:37 PM
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LOL at two atheists arguing over what it means to be a Christian on a Christian board.
Ray

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184097 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 5:53 PM
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LOL at two atheists arguing over what it means to be a Christian on a Christian board.

Very well, oh keeper of the exclusive keys to the private club called "Christian" that no one who isn't a current member can ever accurately read or study or discuss: Jump on in. Care to contribute anything of substance? Have anything constructive to say? Do you have any clue what it means? Or are you just going to condescend to laugh at me for discussing it?


Frydaze1

P.S. Remind me where the link to this post is, the next time anyone here wants to discuss being female, pregnant, gay, old, richer than they have ever been, poorer than they have ever been, of a different skin color than they actually are, of a different religion than they have ever been, or even under a different president than we currently are. Clearly anyone who ever wants to discuss something they aren't has no idea how to. By the way, that's going to make it awfully hard to convert anyone in the future, don't you think? I mean, if someone who isn't a Christian isn't allowed to even try to understand what it means to be one? Though at least I can lay claim to having been a christian. And no matter how off his rocker I think benjd25 is for what he's saying, he says he was raised as one.

The nice thing about "Christian" is that there are actually officially recognized writings on the subject. But for heaven's sake, don't let anyone here even mention anything about what it means to be an atheist ever again unless they currently are one. I'll just LOL myself right out of my chair at you.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184098 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 6:08 PM
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Very well, oh keeper of the exclusive keys to the private club called "Christian" that no one who isn't a current member can ever accurately read or study or discuss: Jump on in. Care to contribute anything of substance? Have anything constructive to say? Do you have any clue what it means? Or are you just going to condescend to laugh at me for discussing it?

I laughed, because it is funny. I'd think you could see some of the humor in it.
and I made a contribution about the difficulty in defining it, today on this thread.

http://boards.fool.com/when-a-christian-leader-is-talking-to...

Remind me where the link to this post is, the next time anyone here wants to discuss being female, pregnant, gay, old, richer than they have ever been, poorer than they have ever been, of a different skin color than they actually are, of a different religion than they have ever been, or even under a different president than we currently are. Clearly anyone who ever wants to discuss something they aren't has no idea how to. By the way, that's going to make it awfully hard to convert anyone in the future, don't you think? I mean, if someone who isn't a Christian isn't allowed to even try to understand what it means to be one? Though at least I can lay claim to having been a christian. And no matter how off his rocker I think benjd25 is for what he's saying, he says he was raised as one.

My point wasn't that you don't have a right to discuss it. You do. My bigger point was that we are around so you can ask us.
As an aside, what happens to Christians who start telling Atheists who they are and what they believe?

The nice thing about "Christian" is that there are actually officially recognized writings on the subject. But for heaven's sake, don't let anyone here even mention anything about what it means to be an atheist ever again unless they currently are one. I'll just LOL myself right out of my chair at you.

So laugh at me! God knows I can laugh at myself.
Lighten up, Francis. It is literally quitting time on Friday. Let's go have a beer. I'm buying.
Ray

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Author: Frydaze1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184099 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 6:19 PM
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Lighten up, Francis. It is literally quitting time on Friday. Let's go have a beer. I'm buying.


Shock Top for me, please. And thank you.


Frydaze1 <--- evidently a few hours behind you - can't quite see quitting time from here yet

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184100 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 7:29 PM
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Christian means Follower of Christ, right? Do we agree on that much?

No, to me Christian just means a follower of the Christian religion. An adherent of Christianity.


If you're a follower of Jesus, things that have to do with Jesus should be pretty close to the top of the list of things to read when determining how best to be a follower of Jesus.

And if you're a follower of Jesus, and you think that the top of the list of things to read when determining how best to be a follower of Jesus were what Jesus said, then the only things you would label as Holy Scripture would be the four gospels. Everything else would be less important writings.




According to your "math", an ass is twice as important as *all* Marys in the bible. Assuming even half of those are the Virgin Mary, that would make the ass four times as important as the Virgin Mary.

Still want to stick with your "math" interpretation of importance?


I did not do a count of mentions. I did a count of what books centered on which main characters. In any case, since 'ass' refers to an entire species (or group of species - not sure) of animals, the only fair comparison would be to 'humans.' (Including references to named asses and named humans.) I'm pretty sure humans would come out ahead of asses in all books.



I'm quoting the words of Jesus in the bible. Are you claiming that the TMF Christian Fools FAQ is more important than the bible?

I'm claiming that the Christians - the ones who get to define Christianity - are the ones who define its central tenets. And those central tenets are mainly is based. Belief in God, belief that Jesus is his son and is God, belief that God created the world. Beliefs about how one should behave are much more variable, are considered contingent on the is beliefs, and are not necessary in order to be considered Christian. People who do not believe in God, who do not believe Jesus is the son of God, who do not believe that God created the world, but treat others with honest concern are labeled non-Christians. People who do believe in God, who do believe Jesus is the son of God, who do believe that God created the world, but do not treat others with honest concern are labeled Christians.



I want to be really clear on this. So please don't avoid it or ask what other sources:
Do you think that the words of Jesus, as reported in the bible, are irrelevant to how God wants you to behave as a Christian?


I think that Christianity weighs the words of Jesus as reported in the Bible fairly low in how God wants Christians to behave. I've never seen a Christian give away all their possessions, for example. That was one of the clearest answers Jesus gave in what his followers should do (Luke 18.) And if you believe you will spend an eternity in heaven or hell, then a century or less is a blink of an eye. It would be silly to do the wrong thing for a blink of an eye when the consequences are so great. It would be like me (who believes my entire existence will be less than a century) risking life in prison to listen to the first note of a pop song.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184101 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 8:16 PM
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LOL at two atheists arguing over what it means to be a Christian on a Christian board.


and that's putting it mildly


(>:



... biting my tongue

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184102 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 8:54 PM
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'Christian' is not a synonym for 'honest concern for others.' Non-Christian is not an antonym of it. I'm sick of the dishonest representation. For example:

http://thesaurus.com/browse/christian

It's b.s.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184103 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 9:43 PM
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I think that Christianity weighs the words of Jesus as reported in the Bible fairly low in how God wants Christians to behave. I've never seen a Christian give away all their possessions, for example. That was one of the clearest answers Jesus gave in what his followers should do (Luke 18.)

I don't see how anyone can construe Jesus' conversation with that one person as a blanket condition that all his followers must meet.

Nevertheless, I'm sure there have been countless Christians who have felt called to give away everything. Numerous religious orders come to mind.

-Bryan

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Author: math999man Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Global Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184104 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 10:40 PM
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I had a sobering experience over 15 years ago. My friend who had rheumatoid arthritis was going with me for a car ride. She was confined to a wheel chair and could not drive. At a stop light, a small older man who was handicapped in one leg was crossing the street - real slow.

I was getting mad. That HE was taking My time up. What a loser ! All in my thoughts.

My friend leaned forward closer to the car dashboard to see better, and said that "what a poor man". Referring to his handicap and how he struggled to walk across the street. All I could think about was how this person was walking in front of my car when the light was green and I could not go on.

There is was, she could not move from the arthritis, in constant pain, serious diabetes issues, etc.. and she was feeling sorry for this man. That showed me what a true Christian heart is like. I was ashamed of my thoughts - Still am, 15 years later.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184106 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/9/2012 11:17 PM
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Luke 14
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184108 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 8:56 AM
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Luke 14
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.


What do you think he meant, and why?

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184109 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 10:12 AM
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I don't see how anyone can construe Jesus' conversation with that one person as a blanket condition that all his followers must meet.

The person is not named as an individual but is just 'a certain ruler.' The list of things that person should do is given as don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, honor your father and mother, and sell everything you have and give to the poor. There is no context to suggest that the last is directed at a single individual while the rest are directed to all humans. The following text about rich individuals having a difficult time entering heaven is not limited to the individual he is talking to; it is generalized. 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich' isn't 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for you.'



Nevertheless, I'm sure there have been countless Christians who have felt called to give away everything. Numerous religious orders come to mind.

Agreed. But they are/were a very, very small minority.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184110 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 1:02 PM
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I don't see how anyone can construe Jesus' conversation with that one person as a blanket condition that all his followers must meet.
-----------
[1]The person is not named as an individual but is just 'a certain ruler.' [2]The list of things that person should do is given as don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, honor your father and mother, and sell everything you have and give to the poor. There is no context to suggest that the last is directed at a single individual while the rest are directed to all humans. [3]The following text about rich individuals having a difficult time entering heaven is not limited to the individual he is talking to; it is generalized. 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich' isn't 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for you.'


I'll take your points one by one, according to the numbers I've added:

[1] which still makes him an individual, no? Jesus is addressing his comments to this one, unnamed person. He also healed unnamed people, but no one suggests that it means he healed everyone generally.
[2] Sure there is context. The OT. The commands are all from the 10 Commandments. Every Jew knew these rules and kept them (more or less). But the OT *never commanded the Jews in general to give everything away*. That is a key fact here. Jesus was saying something new here about wealth. Even his 12 chosen disciples were puzzled by the addition
[3] I agree that what follows is generalized, but it doesn't negate the point that Jesus said something specific and unique to this persons situation.

Jesus said a lot of strange things, like gouging your eye out and such. Drink my blood, eat my flesh. There is precedent for Jesus saying stuff that shouldn't be take at face value.

Add to that the fact that even he didn't give everything away, nor did his disciples. They at least were clothed, had money to buy food with, had sandals, staffs, swords, etc.

Finally, the early church did not practice general everyone give everything away and never own anything again, at least not that I can tell.

I think this account is illustrative of a problem this person had with becoming Jesus' disciple at a specific time in history in which a person may well lose everything by following him. That has not always been the case. He had a particularly strong attachment to his wealth, which would come in the way of total submission to the lordship of Jesus over his life. Jesus saw something there that required a specific remedy.

I personally don't see any reason, in light of the issues I've raised, to consider Jesus' command to this individual to be a blanket condition of becoming his follower. It would have been a specific condition for this individual.

-Bryan

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184111 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 2:46 PM
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[2] Sure there is context. The OT. The commands are all from the 10 Commandments. Every Jew knew these rules and kept them (more or less). But the OT *never commanded the Jews in general to give everything away*. That is a key fact here. Jesus was saying something new here about wealth. Even his 12 chosen disciples were puzzled by the addition

And...none of this suggests that the new command was any less universal than the old commands.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 3:44 PM
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And...none of this suggests that the new command was any less universal than the old commands.

--------------


He just doesn't want to give away his stuff.

NTTAWWT. :)


AM

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184113 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 4:51 PM
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Jesus said a lot of strange things, like gouging your eye out and such. Drink my blood, eat my flesh. There is precedent for Jesus saying stuff that shouldn't be take at face value.

Right. Exactly right. The bible is a metaphor, not the divine inerrant word of god. But let's stick with inerrancy for comedic effect:


51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


If that's not a description of a cannibalistic rite, I don't know what is, and it certainly clears up what happened to the body in the cave.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184114 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 8:34 PM
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<<
Luke 14
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
><
What do you think he meant, and why?
>>

Why don't you tell me why you do not think it means what it clearly says?

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184115 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/10/2012 8:39 PM
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<<
I personally don't see any reason, in light of the issues I've raised, to consider Jesus' command to this individual to be a blanket condition of becoming his follower. It would have been a specific condition for this individual.

-Bryan
>>

Luke 14
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184116 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/11/2012 12:21 AM
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It's math. 4 out of 66.

I've given some thought to this. So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is that the Bible isn't really a Christian document. Yes?

Sort of as if The Hound of the Baskervilles had 66 chapters, but this fellow named 'Holmes' only showed up in four of them, you wouldn't consider it a "Sherlock Holmes Mystery"??

Might I infer from this that the primary difference between Christians and Jews, then, is the ability to toss the Talmud?

I had never looked at it this way before.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184117 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/11/2012 4:08 AM
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<<
Might I infer from this that the primary difference between Christians and Jews, then, is the ability to toss the Talmud?
>>

did you mean Torah?

Most Christians have never read the Talmud... similar few have studied the 'Traditions' of the RCC.

<<
I had never looked at it this way before.
>>
I do not think I ever will.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184118 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/11/2012 3:46 PM
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<<
Luke 14
33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
><
What do you think he meant, and why?
>>

Why don't you tell me why you do not think it means what it clearly says?


What does it clearly say? You seem to be saying that a follower of Jesus must give away everthing he has, or he can't be a disciple. I note that you haven't done that.

I've already given a few reasons why I think it doesn't mean that (http://boards.fool.com/i-dont-see-how-anyone-can-construe-je...) There are other reasons.

If you want to discuss your views, fine. If not that's fine also.

-Bryan

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184119 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/11/2012 4:01 PM
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<<
I had never looked at it this way before.
>>
I do not think I ever will.


I agree. I do not see Jesus as Sherlock Holmes either.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184120 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/11/2012 7:57 PM
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So what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is that the Bible isn't really a Christian document. Yes?

No...I'm saying Christians chose the entire Bible as their primary document. I think Christians try and take the entire Bible, not weighing the four gospels way ahead of the other 62 books.



Sort of as if The Hound of the Baskervilles had 66 chapters, but this fellow named 'Holmes' only showed up in four of them, you wouldn't consider it a "Sherlock Holmes Mystery"??

That I will agree with.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/11/2012 11:23 PM
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I think Christians try and take the entire Bible, not weighing the four gospels way ahead of the other 62 books.

And you conclude from this...what? That "Christian" is a misnomer because there are only four books dealing with the Christ?

I agree with your statement, just trying to follow the trail to your ultimate point or conclusion.

(And I still wonder if the whole thing was an attempt to get out from under the Talmud...a lot of very restrictive rules that practicing Jews are still burdened with today. As Lawrence said, Christians don't even read the thing now.

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184122 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 11:17 AM
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No...I'm saying Christians chose the entire Bible as their primary document. I think Christians try and take the entire Bible, not weighing the four gospels way ahead of the other 62 books.

A. The Bible is The Word of God. It is a divine product. No one book is greater than any other. They are all true.

B. The Bible is a collection of ancient writings about God (beliefs about, experiences of, etc), written over 1000 years by at least 40 authors, plus innumerable editors. It is a human product.

Some Christians (most in USA?) go with A.

Some Christians go with B. These people tend to elevate the Gospels higher than other books, especially OT books.

Christianity is not monolithic. There are varieties of belief and practice.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 12:43 PM
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<<
What does it clearly say? You seem to be saying that a follower of Jesus must give away everthing he has, or he can't be a disciple.
>>
I have simply quoted the passage...but it is nice to know you can read what it clearly says.


<<
I note that you haven't done that.
>>
You have no idea what I have done or not done! But you are not judged using my life as a standard!

John 12:47-49

New International Version (NIV)

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.


I also thing the above passage is clear. So in my case I ignore the teachings of my Lord at my on peril.... I reject none of my Lord's teachings, I accept them all....

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184124 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 12:51 PM
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<<
(And I still wonder if the whole thing was an attempt to get out from under the Talmud...a lot of very restrictive rules that practicing Jews are still burdened with today. As Lawrence said, Christians don't even read the thing now.
>>

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

The Talmud is commentary, it is not scripture? It is not OT nor NT. As far as i know few Christians since the Apostle Paul hvae studied the Talmud... almost all Christians are familiar with the TORAH which are the books of Moses. The Seventh Day Adventists probably follow it as well as most modern Jews.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184125 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 1:08 PM
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Christianity is not monolithic. There are varieties of belief and practice.


from the Outside, that sounds like Serious
understatement

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184126 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 1:31 PM
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What does it clearly say? You seem to be saying that a follower of Jesus must give away everthing he has, or he can't be a disciple.
--------------

I have simply quoted the passage...but it is nice to know you can read what it clearly says.


I am interested not only in what it says, but also how it applies to me as a follower of Jesus.

I'm just curious about what you think about it, how it applies to you. I'm not trying to be antagonistic.


I note that you haven't done that.
---------
You have no idea what I have done or not done! But you are not judged using my life as a standard!


I admit I made a few assumptions when I inferred that you haven't given up everything. Like you own the computer you are typing on, had other possessions as well (clothing at least). Maybe had investments (this is an investment website after all). Are you saying you've given up every one of your possessions, own nothing now? I guess that is possible, I don't know.

I think some of Jesus' original hearers probably did give up most everything to follow him, but not literally everything. I think it makes more sense, in the context of the whole Bible, to see that Jesus is possibly talking about an attitude towards possessions, a willingness to put him ahead of everything in life.

Do you also hate your family? Jesus clear said to do that a few verses prior. I don't think he meant it to be taken at face value. Agree?

-Bryan

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 4:23 PM
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<<
Do you also hate your family? Jesus clear said to do that a few verses prior. I don't think he meant it to be taken at face value. Agree?
>>

I already stated I accept all of Jesus's teachings... Maybe that is why they seem to be easier for me to understand. I do not rely on my own understanding in any case. I rely on the One who knows the path, the WAY, the TRUTH, the LIGHT... I simply try to follow HIM who haa the words of life.

You seem to be reaching for what it does not mean, I simply seek how with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to put HIS teachings into effect in my life. I cannot tell you what a verse does not mean... so no I do not agree. I think it is safer to take the teachings of the Christ at face value than to be consistently deciding that they do not mean what they clearly state.

We do not have to follow HIM, but why do so if you do not agree with HIS teachings. I chose to follow HIM because I agreed with HIS teachings. It seems to me that some people simply give His name some lip service....He asked once, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say?".. it is still a valid question.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 4:57 PM
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I cannot tell you what a verse does not mean... so no I do not agree. I think it is safer to take the teachings of the Christ at face value than to be consistently deciding that they do not mean what they clearly state.

I think it is safer to seek to understand what Jesus meant when he said something. That's one reason you won't see me walking around town shouldering a large wooden beam dragging behind me for example. But I *am* willing to endure whatever trials he allows in my path.

As you are studiously avoiding dealing with specifics, I think its best to say, "Thanks for giving me a glimpse of what you believe", and leave it at that brother.

-Bryan

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 5:10 PM
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Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184130 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 5:17 PM
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<<
As you are studiously avoiding dealing with specifics, I think its best to say, "Thanks for giving me a glimpse of what you believe", and leave it at that brother.

-Bryan
>>

I was very specific... you ignored the specifics that I stated or quoted .... and returned to stating your truths instead of HIS.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 5:19 PM
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As far as i know few Christians since the Apostle Paul hvae studied the Talmud.

Exactly. That's my point.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 5:27 PM
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I know, I know...non-believer butting in here...

But I think I understand Lawrence. He is simply saying that he does his best NOT to interpret anything. He reads it and takes it at face value. He does not wish (it appears) to be one of those Christians who picks and chooses, and twists meaning, so they can get what they want out of it. Not that YOU are doing this, Bryan. At least no more so than anyone else (and possibly less so).

So you can rightly query him about giving away his computer, but he has said many times that he tries to follow and often fails, but continues to try. I'm sure he will tell you that Jesus meant exactly what it says in the text. Ditto the family-hating bit. He takes it literally.

1poorguy (not commenting on the goodness or badness of anything here)

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 7:00 PM
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you ignored the specifics that I stated or quoted

my bad then

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/12/2012 11:13 PM
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Earlier in thread you posted this... to which I replied with Luke 14:33
"
I think that Christianity weighs the words of Jesus as reported in the Bible fairly low in how God wants Christians to behave. I've never seen a Christian give away all their possessions, for example. That was one of the clearest answers Jesus gave in what his followers should do (Luke 18.)
"
"
I don't see how anyone can construe Jesus' conversation with that one person as a blanket condition that all his followers must meet.

Nevertheless, I'm sure there have been countless Christians who have felt called to give away everything. Numerous religious orders come to mind.

-Bryan
"
Luke 14
33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

You then commenced to tell everyone this passage cannot mean what it says. Then you get snippy because I will not answer your questions about what I believe. What I believe is simple... I believe what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught. I undestand that you do not, you like to reinterpret the teachings to fit your understanding. I try to change my understanding to fit the teachings instead. If the teaching contradicts other teachings in the scripture I dig into the greek and hebrew meanings of the words in the passage. When I am not following the teaching I do not try to modify the teaching, I think what needs to change is me not the teachings.

Everything I have is his including this body that I am in, including my soul, He has purchased it with HIS blood, I found a treasure buried in a field and I traded all that I had, all that I was and all that I would be to purchase that field and possess the treasure.... I am now a steward of what HE has placed under my control and will one day be held to account for what I did with it whether good or bad.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184140 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 11:02 AM
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What I believe is simple... I believe what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught.

That part is clear to me. What is not clear is how you understand a specific teaching, and how you apply it.

I undestand that you do not, you like to reinterpret the teachings to fit your understanding.

I don't think that is a fair evaluation. As I said before, I try to understand what Jesus meant, what he intended to communicate. I assume you do the same, otherwise you wouldn't know what to do with a particular teaching.

Here's a specific you didn't address: Do you hate your family? Jesus clearly said to hate them. How do you understand what he meant?


I try to change my understanding to fit the teachings instead.

That's not how I approach it. I try to understand what Jesus wants me to understand. I don't have a prior understanding. Sometimes I come to the realization that I've misunderstood, and then I try to have a more accurate understanding.

If the teaching contradicts other teachings in the scripture I dig into the greek and hebrew meanings of the words in the passage.


That's a good approach. Have you studied the Greek in the two passages we've been talking about? The Greek verbs are different. In Luke 18:22 the verbs are "all that you have sell and distribute [to the poor]", while in Luke 14:33 the verb is "say goodbye to/renounce [all his possessions]" The two passages don't say to do the same thing.

In addition, the witness of Scripture contradicts what you call the plain meaning of Jesus' teaching to give up absolutely everything, and have no possessions whatsoever. None of his disciples did this, nor did they ever teach others to do this. How do you resolve the contradiction?

-Bryan

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184141 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 11:14 AM
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None of his disciples did this, nor did they ever teach others to do this. How do you resolve the contradiction?

Perhaps a version of the telephone game. It went wrong almost from the get-go. According to scriptures, Jesus was divine. Some versions say he was God incarnate. The disciples were fallible men (and women?? some scholars seem to think so). They "interpreted" his words and suddenly the "sell all you have" bit changed. No reason to believe that such behavior is unique to today's theists.

Did Jesus have anything but the clothes on his back? I seem to recall that he traveled around preaching, and relied on the hospitality of strangers (they washed his feet, fed him, etc). Don't recall that he had a home, goats or cattle, or much of anything else.

1poorguy

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184143 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 11:49 AM
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The disciples were fallible men (and women?? some scholars seem to think so). They "interpreted" his words and suddenly the "sell all you have" bit changed

I think it more likely that they understood what he meant, and acted accordingly. They all made huge sacrifices to be in Jesus' inner circle. They just didn't run around naked, having "given all they had to the poor"

Did Jesus have anything but the clothes on his back? I seem to recall that he traveled around preaching, and relied on the hospitality of strangers (they washed his feet, fed him, etc). Don't recall that he had a home, goats or cattle, or much of anything else.

He didn't travel around with much, that's for sure. Some scholars believe he may have had a house, but it is based on slim evidence. Regardless, he and his 12 main guys lived as you suggest. Those who were previously fishermen left their business, Matthew the tax collector left his job, etc. They did have some money they probably got from donations, that they used for their needs. Judas used to help himself from it.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184144 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 12:09 PM
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I think it more likely that they understood what he meant, and acted accordingly.

And what was that? The text doesn't say "give away what you don't need". It says "give it all away". (I'm sure clothing was exempted since, as you imply, nudity was likely frowned upon.) And there are other passages ("eye of the needle" and such) that seem to reinforce the idea that you should give up on worldly possessions. The example of Jesus himself appears to reinforce this (unless he really had a home, but as you say there is little-to-no evidence of this).

I'm not picking on you, nor do I have a preference (or a "pony in this race"). But I think Lawrence has a point that you are interpreting to suit your preference rather than reading the words on the page. Unless you can point to something where Jesus says "it's OK to have a nice house and a cool car, and a nice tux and a rolex" (or the iron-age equivalent, of course!). I think you will be hard-pressed. He seemed more concerned about everyone having food to eat and decent clothes (i.e. not rags, but not a tux either).

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184145 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 12:34 PM
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In addition, the witness of Scripture contradicts what you call the plain meaning of Jesus' teaching to give up absolutely everything, and have no possessions whatsoever. None of his disciples did this, nor did they ever teach others to do this. How do you resolve the contradiction?
>>

I do not remember Jesus ever using the term 'absolutely' so my plain reading does not add that word....

I see no contradiction to resolve except the on you are creating by rephrasing the passage.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184146 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 1:08 PM
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And what was that? The text doesn't say "give away what you don't need". It says "give it all away".

That is not what he said in Luke 14:33

New International Version
In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.


American Standard Version
So therefore whosoever he be of you that renounceth not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


King James Version
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath , he cannot be my disciple.


New American Standard
"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.


New King James Version
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.


New Revised Standard
So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.

The above passage does not tell anyone to give away anything to anyone, it does not state that you should keep what you need! Neither does He tell you to strip and follow him naked.

The passage in Matthew tells the rich young man to sell all that he has and give to the poor. Someone on this board stated that was not a blanket command to all. I always assumed the rich young man had no family, but maybe not. Paul writes that a brother that does not care for the needs of his family is worse that an unbeliever.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184147 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 1:12 PM
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I do not remember Jesus ever using the term 'absolutely' so my plain reading does not add that word....


Ok, we're making progress. Jesus said to the rich ruler to sell all his possessions. You say it doesn't mean to sell *all* in an absolute sense. So what exactly does it mean? What was the ruler allowed to keep?

In the second passage we've addressed, Jesus said that a person must say goodbye to/ renounce / give up all he has, or he can't be a disciple. You say it doesn't mean to absolutely give up everything. What does it mean then?

Do you hate your family? I don't, because I understand what Jesus meant. How do you understand it? (third time asking)

-Bryan

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184148 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 1:22 PM
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I do not remember Jesus ever using the term 'absolutely' so my plain reading does not add that word....


Ok, we're making progress. Jesus said to the rich ruler to sell all his possessions. You say it doesn't mean to sell *all* in an absolute sense. So what exactly does it mean? What was the ruler allowed to keep?
>>

The passage in Matthew that you stated did not apply to everyone got me to quote Luke 14:33. Sorry did not know you were talking about the Matthew passage or I would not have commented on it the absolutley... Jesus said 'sell all your possesions and give to the poor'. i understnad the paraphrase to absolutley in that case....

"
Do you hate your family? I don't, because I understand what Jesus meant. How do you understand it? (third time asking)

-Bryan
>>

I have not commented on it because you have not quoted which passage you are talking about.. there are 2 similar but different passages.

L

Why don't you tell me what it means to you! You spend a lot of time telling us that the passages do not mean what they say. If you want me to tell you what i think they tell me what you think it means... I do not need to hear what it does not mean. I do not read passages thinking what it does not mean. I look for Truth not what is not.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184149 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 1:56 PM
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The passage in Matthew that you stated did not apply to everyone got me to quote Luke 14:33. Sorry did not know you were talking about the Matthew passage or I would not have commented on it the absolutley... Jesus said 'sell all your possesions and give to the poor'. i understnad the paraphrase to absolutley in that case....

The passage was Luke 18:22, where Jesus told the rich ruler to sell everything and give it to the poor. You believe Jesus meant for him to sell everything he had in an absolute sense, strip down to his birthday suit? That's what "absolute" and "everything" mean to me if you take it literally.

You bring up an important point. I stated that I didn't think Jesus' command to the rich ruler applied to everyone. You then quoted Luke 14:33, which I took as you saying "Yes it does". Did I misunderstand you?

Do you hate your family? I don't, because I understand what Jesus meant. How do you understand it? (third time asking)
-----------
I have not commented on it because you have not quoted which passage you are talking about.. there are 2 similar but different passages.


I said it was a few verses before Luke 14:33-- the exact reference is Luke 14:26 "“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

I think it means that following Jesus as his disciple means that we have to put him before all others, even close family, and (going on in the passage), that we have to love him more than our possessions. He is talking about a basic orientation in our hearts, to have him as the most important relationship and "possession". All other relationships might be lost because of our relationship to Christ, as might be our possessions.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184150 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 2:02 PM
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I do not need to hear what it does not mean. I do not read passages thinking what it does not mean.

I find, when faced with the question, "What does it mean?", it is very helpful to figure out what it doesn't mean. Helps to narrow down the options.

Jesus told the rich ruler to sell everything. What does "everything" mean? More important, some people tell me that in order to be Jesus' disciple, I have to give up everything too, absolutely (although 1poorguy wisely says I can keep my clothes on <g>). Are they right? If so, determining what "everything" means and doesn't mean becomes very important. Or, determining that the passage *doesn't mean* I have to sell everything I own is pretty important too.

-Bryan

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184151 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 2:55 PM
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Look, Jesus Christ does not want us attached to our stuff. The rich young ruler was bragging to Jesus that he'd followed all the rules and Jesus saw right through him and said "One thing you lack, sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor"
This was a specific command to give up the thing he loved more than Jesus (riches) to be pure.
It was not a command for everyone who loves Jesus to live a life of deep poverty.
What so you love more than Jesus? You gotta get rid of that. Whatever that may be.
Ray

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184152 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 3:44 PM
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<<
I think it means that following Jesus as his disciple means that we have to put him before all others, even close family, and (going on in the passage), that we have to love him more than our possessions. He is talking about a basic orientation in our hearts, to have him as the most important relationship and "possession". All other relationships might be lost because of our relationship to Christ, as might be our possessions.
>>

Luke 14 has a lot in it about becoming a disciple of Christ and counting the cost.

When I came to Christ, I hated everything that I was, even my own life, the world my family... I was laying down my life, being baptized into his death and raised to live a new life.
Luke 14:26 "“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

as a christian I am commanded to love my neighbor, including those in my own family
Matthew 10:37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The difference is in someone coming to Jesus, and someone living in Him. I do not think I could have come to Jesus if I was grasping anything in this world, not family, not belongings, not friends not girl friends... but then I wanted to be his disciple, I never have cared for the religion that bears His name.
Many simply do not want to go to hell and want to go to heaven and if they can find someone to tell them how to do it they they will. I do not think much about heaven and hell, I want to live with Him now, He is me and I in Him.

Jesus said this:
Matthew 16:25
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184153 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 3:59 PM
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Look, Jesus Christ does not want us attached to our stuff. The rich young ruler was bragging to Jesus that he'd followed all the rules and Jesus saw right through him and said "One thing you lack, sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor"
This was a specific command to give up the thing he loved more than Jesus (riches) to be pure.
It was not a command for everyone who loves Jesus to live a life of deep poverty.


Agreed.

What so you love more than Jesus? You gotta get rid of that. Whatever that may be.
Ray


Great. Now I gotta tell my wife to move out ;-)

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184154 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/13/2012 4:29 PM
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Great. Now I gotta tell my wife to move out ;-)
>>

That is why Paul said it was better to remain unmarried. Unless of course you would burn with lust otherwise.

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184159 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 9:15 AM
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What so you love more than Jesus? You gotta get rid of that. Whatever that may be.

Jesus also says the disciple must hate his family. And if you look back you are not worthy to be his disciple. Does that mean the disciple must get rid of them?

You're going to say no, but why?

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184166 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 10:23 AM
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<i

Jesus also says the disciple must hate his family. And if you look back you are not worthy to be his disciple. Does that mean the disciple must get rid of them?

You're going to say no, but why?


Goldrushs Principle: Jesus was speaking parabolically
(as ALWAYS). Were you saved, you wouldn't need to ask.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184167 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 10:47 AM
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Jesus also says the disciple must hate his family. And if you look back you are not worthy to be his disciple. Does that mean the disciple must get rid of them?

You're going to say no, but why?

-----------
Goldrushs Principle: Jesus was speaking parabolically
(as ALWAYS). Were you saved, you wouldn't need to ask.


I would say it's based on general approaches to understanding human language that everybody uses, whether they are conscious of them or not. We try to determine what the person meant to communicate, using contextual clues and shared background.

Goldrushes didn't have a patent on that

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184168 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 10:49 AM
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Jesus also says the disciple must hate his family. And if you look back you are not worthy to be his disciple. Does that mean the disciple must get rid of them?

You're going to say no, but why?


I think it is safe to assume a level of hyperbole when Jesus says to hate your family for a few reasons:

First, according to the gospels He had a loving relationship with His siblings.
Second, Jesus loved His mother and she followed Him up to His death and resurrection.
Finally, Peter had a mother in law and Jesus healed her (imagine that!)

Now, if we are to follow Jesus, we should have a focus that allows us to pick Him first. Jesus' own experience shows that you don't have to forgo your family to do so, but He rather wants us to have an intense focus on His ministry. Taken in context, this makes a lot of sense to me.
Obviously there are skeptics who will translate it literally and wonder why I am so close to my family.
Ray

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184169 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 10:56 AM
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Sort of like when you say to your wife "I'm going to kill that child" she knows that's not an actual threat of homicide, but simply an indication that junior is probably grounded for the foreseeable future?

Then what hope do you have with a 2000 yr old manuscript from an entirely different culture? If it contains such idioms then you're, at best, guessing what is really meant.

It seems most fundamentalists take is as-written on the assumption that such cultural elements are not there.

1poorguy

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184170 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 11:02 AM
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Obviously there are skeptics who will translate it literally and wonder why I am so close to my family.

I recall reading several years ago about a young man who, while in college, told his parents he was atheist. I forget what denomination they were, but apparently the parents were staunch Christians. The mother said something like "well there's 20 years wasted" and walked away. I no longer remember if that was someone on the boards here, or a blog someone sent to me, or what. But the story always stuck with me.

I don't see how a parent can do that so cavalierly.

1poorguy

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184171 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 11:05 AM
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Then what hope do you have with a 2000 yr old manuscript from an entirely different culture? If it contains such idioms then you're, at best, guessing what is really meant.

You read everything in context. But I think you know that. Jesus didn't literally hate His family, so when He tells you to, you can surmise a lot from the text.

It seems most fundamentalists take is as-written on the assumption that such cultural elements are not there.

I'm not a fundamentalist, but I do think you can read the words, look at the body of work about Christ, and make strong inferences.
I don't think this one is a brain tickler. I just don't.
Ray

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184181 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 12:28 PM
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<<
Jesus also says the disciple must hate his family. And if you look back you are not worthy to be his disciple. Does that mean the disciple must get rid of them?

You're going to say no, but why?
>>

Jesus states that about someone becoming his disciple.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184184 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 12:34 PM
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Jesus states that about someone becoming his disciple.

And to expand on what Lawrence said, family and synagogue were the two most important institutions in that culture. Becoming an disciple of Jesus meant risking both being ostracized by non-believing family members, and being kicked out of the synagogue.

Jesus was saying, "you better count the cost". Ironically, many atheists who have "come out" in religious families can identify.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184186 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 12:57 PM
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And to expand on what Lawrence said, family and synagogue were the two most important institutions in that culture. Becoming an disciple of Jesus meant risking both being ostracized by non-believing family members, and being kicked out of the synagogue.

Jesus was saying, "you better count the cost". Ironically, many atheists who have "come out" in religious families can identify.
>>

A case can be made that anyone who seeks to be a disciple of Christ in any culture including our own will be ostracized.... there are many who do not want to hear Truth. Most simply want to hear why they are better than others.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184217 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/14/2012 10:30 PM
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You read everything in context. But I think you know that.

Yes. However, as another poster pointed out there are cultural contexts that we, over 2000 years later, are not likely to get.

Heck, I can confuse someone today by saying "you dig it?". Unless you were alive and old enough to communicate during the 60s, you will not have a clue what that means. It's a proper English word used in a non-standard way (that everyone at one time understood).

Or more recently the British MP who, when some discussion was going on about 'spam', didn't understand what tinned meat had to do with anything.

Amplify by 2000 years and I don't think it unreasonable to think there may be a problem.

I'm not a fundamentalist, but I do think you can read the words, look at the body of work about Christ, and make strong inferences.

That's what people do today. I am simply asserting that many (most?) infer what they wish it to say. I don't know if it's even possible to figure out consistently what the original author(s) meant because of the huge displacement in time (and civilization/culture). Really, the only "body of work about Christ" is four little books...that's not a lot of source material. And that still omits the other 62 books with various stories and rules of questionable relevance (and/or morality).

1poorguy

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184219 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 9:04 AM
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I don't know if it's even possible to figure out consistently what the original author(s) meant because of the huge displacement in time (and civilization/culture)

This strikes me as pretty extreme position, like the "Jesus never existed" meme you've promoted.

I don't think historians would agree that we can't understand ancient documents. That's just silly.

Humans tend to talk about the same stuff over and over again. Not much new since writing was invented.

But the take-away from your observations is that we do need to be careful to understand the historical and cultural context of any ancient text, bible included.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184223 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 10:12 AM
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<<
That's what people do today. I am simply asserting that many (most?) infer what they wish it to say. I don't know if it's even possible to figure out consistently what the original author(s) meant because of the huge displacement in time (and civilization/culture). Really, the only "body of work about Christ" is four little books...that's not a lot of source material. And that still omits the other 62 books with various stories and rules of questionable relevance (and/or morality).

1poorguy
>>

Jesus states, His teachings are just what the Father told him to say and how he was told to say it..... the issue of understanding is not cultural, the teachings of Jesus Christ are accepted in all cultures around the world. The problem with understanding is that many people do not want to put His teachings into practice in their own lives. That problem exists here in the US and in the christian community as much as it exists in China, India, the Middle East or Europe.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184225 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 10:37 AM
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Humans tend to talk about the same stuff over and over again. Not much new since writing was invented.

I agree, but see this debate from a slightly different light. It's okay to eat shellfish, use a steak knife to spread butter, and a lot of other stuff, and that's the picking and choosing I see that comes down to "interpretation."

If it's okay to see those kinds of things in a different light, then it's okay to see same gender pairings and abortion in a different light.

Lawrence's position leads to some difficult conclusions, but there is an integrity to his approach I can follow. I find the various religious schools of thought to be arbitrary in what they say is now okay, and what still isn't.

My two cents, faith is good, but religion is corrupt. Faith is a spiritual bond with the universe, religion is an institution that promotes its own hierarchy by instilling cultural rules that have to be followed so, according to them, the individual will be on the big guy's good side when they die.

Faith doesn't need interpretation by some for the many. It's as personal as eye color and disposition.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184226 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 10:43 AM
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The problem with understanding is that many people do not want to put His teachings into practice in their own lives.

Which brings us full-circle back to giving away your stuff, hating your family to be his disciple, etc. Are those to be followed literally, or are they open to interpretation? And, bringing in other elements of this discussion, how much cultural context is needed (if any) in making that determination?

I don't have the answers. As Bryan pointed out I'm not convinced there was a single individual (Yeshu) upon whom the stories are based (maybe there was, I don't know). I'm just asking.

Which I should probably stop for now. I have a feeling we're about to start flagellating a deceased equine. :-)

1poorguy

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184227 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 10:44 AM
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My two cents, faith is good, but religion is corrupt. Faith is a spiritual bond with the universe, religion is an institution that promotes its own hierarchy by instilling cultural rules that have to be followed so, according to them, the individual will be on the big guy's good side when they die.

Faith doesn't need interpretation by some for the many. It's as personal as eye color and disposition.


I'm a Christian, and I agree with this.
Ray

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184228 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 11:55 AM
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<< I find the various religious schools of thought to be arbitrary in what they say is now okay, and what still isn't.
>>
Me too!

<<
My two cents, faith is good, but religion is corrupt. Faith is a spiritual bond with the universe, religion is an institution that promotes its own hierarchy by instilling cultural rules that have to be followed so, according to them, the individual will be on the big guy's good side when they die.
>>
I would suggest that there is a distinction between religion and a religious organization. A religion may be false or true but not corrupt. A religious organization can be corrupt, hypocritical... etc.

<<
Faith doesn't need interpretation by some for the many. It's as personal as eye color and disposition.
>>
I am not sure faith is as diverse as eye color, I am pretty sure it is not as diverse as disposition! However the NT teaches to respect diverse beliefs in such matters as a Sabbath Day, eating meat, and other things. Telling us not to judge one another on such matters.

My belief is that we should live up to the faith that we have. Those that have little, little is expected, those that have been given much much is expected.

As far as the teachings of the church is concerned the NT teaches that we should respect our leaders in full humility and I try to. But those who have the Spirit of Christ also have the Spirit to guide them.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Some religions teach that the power and knowledge rests with hierarchy of the religion even some that go by the name of christian... the NT teaches the power and knowledge rests in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. As we abide in Him and HE in us we have access to both... apart from Him we can do nothing.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184229 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 11:58 AM
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<<
Lawrence's position leads to some difficult conclusions,
>>

Jesus's teachings lead to very difficult conclusions, for Him, for His Apostles, for many of us.....

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184230 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 7:20 PM
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I agree, but see this debate from a slightly different light. It's okay to eat shellfish, use a steak knife to spread butter, and a lot of other stuff, and that's the picking and choosing I see that comes down to "interpretation."

To me, the NT is pretty clear that the dietary laws of the OT no longer apply. Multiple statements to that affect. It's not arbitrary.

If it's okay to see those kinds of things in a different light, then it's okay to see same gender pairings and abortion in a different light.

You would have a point if not for the fact that the NT states that the dietary laws do not apply, while reaffirming God's plan for marriage. Again, its not an arbitrary decision by 21st century Christians.

As to abortion, there's no direct statement in either OT or NT. But "Love your neighbor" and "Thou shalt not kill" apply if you consider the unborn child your neighbor.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184234 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 8:34 PM
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As to abortion, there's no direct statement in either OT or NT. But "Love your neighbor" and "Thou shalt not kill" apply if you consider the unborn child your neighbor.



How about brown people halfway around the world who never did anything to us? Is it ok to kill them?


AM

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184235 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 8:58 PM
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How about brown people halfway around the world who never did anything to us?

Ask your president.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184236 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 9:44 PM
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To me, the NT is pretty clear that the dietary laws of the OT no longer apply. Multiple statements to that affect. It's not arbitrary.

Okay. I'm a little confused on that one because he also states he did not come to destroy the old law, but to fulfill it. I get the part where he then further states the Jews got it wrong, but I don't see a lot of clarity on what's wrong and what's right. Can you point me to specifics, or is this a big "interpretation" loop hole?

So, I'll stick with Matthew, since Jesus kind of does an all out:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Why do christian churches allow divorce?

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184237 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 10:02 PM
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How about brown people halfway around the world who never did anything to us?

Ask your president.


works for me ... let this president determine Christian theology

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184238 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/15/2012 10:06 PM
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Ask your president.

???

I thought you were a US citizen.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184239 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 9:08 AM
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let this president determine Christian theology

He is Christian.
Ray

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184240 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 9:36 AM
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To me, the NT is pretty clear that the dietary laws of the OT no longer apply. Multiple statements to that affect. It's not arbitrary.

Okay. I'm a little confused on that one because he also states he did not come to destroy the old law, but to fulfill it. I get the part where he then further states the Jews got it wrong, but I don't see a lot of clarity on what's wrong and what's right. Can you point me to specifics, or is this a big "interpretation" loop hole?


See Mark 7, particularly v. 19; Acts 2 and Peter's vision; Romans 14

If Jesus fulfilled it, then it's purpose was served, it's done. He said on the cross, "It's finished". He instituted a new covenant.

I wouldn't say its cut and dried, as not everyone sees it the same. But that's my take.

-Bryan

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184241 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 9:43 AM
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32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
------------
Why do christian churches allow divorce?


Jesus allowed divorce, as per your quote. Remarriage is another issue.

And dude, use a modern translation :-)

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184242 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 10:16 AM
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And dude, use a modern translation :-)

But that's part of the problem for me. I admit I'm very weak on scripture, but like everything, once I focus, I try and be fair and figure it out as best I can.

When you do a google search on a particular aspect of the NT, you get an awful lot of cherry picking. So, when a particular site says that Book x V n demonstrates y, I go to bible gateway and read on both sides of the quoted text. So far, I've tossed a lot of posts, because the cherry picked quote is taken out of context.

This section addressed a big issue in modern society and seemed to say what it said, BUT....

So I then dig deeper and find discussions on the original text. The modern translation, IMO, didn't capture the intent of the passage. It sounded a little watered down to me.

Okay, so we pushed the discussion back yet another post. Allows divorce. No second marriages allowed in evangelical churches?

To be honest, I read the most convoluted position paper from a Presbyterian church that was intended to give guidance on the issue, and got into a biblical, verses non biblical divorce, but it just made my point for me.

Divorce and remarriage are part of modern society, and the church had to do a lot of "interpreting" to come to a practical solution. I have no beef with that. But once you do, I then have to call a turd a turd, and divine word of god and absolute morality turns brown and starts to smell bad to me. Not from an individual perspective, but from an institutional perspective. A house of worship is supposed to offer guidance on the best way to live your life according to god's wishes. Interpreting god's wishes incorrectly is your or my own problem. BUT, once you start teaching it, particularly as an authority on the subject, you better be right. This isn't science, it's divine.

Just saying and I'm open to review other passages. I'm trying to be as fair as I can be on this (for example, slavery was a very real part of ancient Judea, and neither Christ nor his disciples ever condemned it, but it would be unfair to say the NT supports slavery).

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184243 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 10:29 AM
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slavery was a very real part of ancient Judea, and neither Christ nor his disciples ever condemned it, but it would be unfair to say the NT supports slavery

What would be unfair is to say that the NT supports American-style bullwhip-and-branding 1850's-style slavery.

A lot of so-called slavery in the bible was people paying off their debts by selling their labor for a time. Today we use credit cards.

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Author: bdhinton Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184244 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 10:46 AM
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Divorce and remarriage are part of modern society, and the church had to do a lot of "interpreting" to come to a practical solution. I have no beef with that. But once you do, I then have to call a t**urd a t**urd, and divine word of god and absolute morality turns brown and starts to smell bad to me. Not from an individual perspective, but from an institutional perspective. A house of worship is supposed to offer guidance on the best way to live your life according to god's wishes. Interpreting god's wishes incorrectly is your or my own problem. BUT, once you start teaching it, particularly as an authority on the subject, you better be right. This isn't science, it's divine.

A lot of people struggle with the issue you've identified. It's a huge problem in protestantism. For me, I can live with a certain amount of ambiguity. The basics of the faith are agreed on by all branches of Christianity. If you need more than that, I think what you're looking for is the Roman Catholic Church. I know some atheists have ended up there for this very issue.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184245 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 10:54 AM
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A lot of so-called slavery in the bible was people paying off their debts by selling their labor for a time. Today we use credit cards.

I would quibble with that. It's called 'indentured servitude', and was often used to enslave someone. In principle it seemed reasonable (pay your debt, move on), but in practice people could (and did) become trapped in such arrangements. Which is why the practice is essentially banned today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant#Legal_status...

While Nigel is technically correct that the NT does not support slavery, the OT does (and provides rules for treatment of them). As this is not repudiated in the NT does that mean it is still "OK" by the Bible? (Or did the "new covenant" wipe that away also?)

1poorguy

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184246 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 11:11 AM
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A lot of so-called slavery in the bible was people paying off their debts by selling their labor for a time. Today we use credit cards.



Except for women, of course.
They were lower than slaves.
Husbands could "put away" their wives.
But wives had no option to "put away" their sorry husbands.

Phooey on a religion that treats women like cattle.


AM

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 11:26 AM
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Phooey on a religion that treats women like cattle.

Makes you wonder why so many women chose to follow Jesus, both then and now. They must have seen something.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184248 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 11:38 AM
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Makes you wonder why so many women chose to follow Jesus, both then and now. They must have seen something.

--------------


Or, they were uneducated, superstitious people who believe whatever they are told - especially that some day they will have the "yoke" of this misery removed from them.

When you have nothing else, you will believe almost anything.

OR - big "or" here: The church (whichever church) got their hooks into them when they were children. It's hard to break away from friends and family and all you have ever been taught, stand up, and announce to the world what you REALLY believe.

I can imagine what would have happened if my grandparents knew what I really believe. My grandmother would probably have died on the spot. But she was a close-minded, miserly person who gave no quarter - a person who urged me, on the birth of my first child, to take it to church right away even though she had no idea about anything other than hunger and a dirty diaper.

Bah!

It's better to walk tall and own who you are. But it's awfully hard to do if you want to have any friends at all.

AM

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184249 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:26 PM
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<<
If Jesus fulfilled it, then it's purpose was served, it's done. He said on the cross, "It's finished". He instituted a new covenant.

I wouldn't say its cut and dried, as not everyone sees it the same. But that's my take.

-Bryan

>>
Seventh Day Adventists have a different opinion....

Some of the early Christians had a different opinion, they needed clarification on what whether the dietary laws would be binding on gentile converts. Do not remember chapter and verse but Paul went and consulted a Council in the church in Jerusalem.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184250 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:31 PM
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<<
Just saying and I'm open to review other passages. I'm trying to be as fair as I can be on this (for example, slavery was a very real part of ancient Judea, and neither Christ nor his disciples ever condemned it, but it would be unfair to say the NT supports slavery).
>>

Read Philemon....

I think the case might have been similar to Thomas Jefferson who was not able to free his slaves because they were collateral for numerous debts.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:37 PM
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<<
I would quibble with that. It's called 'indentured servitude', and was often used to enslave someone. In principle it seemed reasonable (pay your debt, move on), but in practice people could (and did) become trapped in such arrangements. Which is why the practice is essentially banned today.
>>

It was reinstituted recently in the US by another name,.... they call it student debt and credit card debt. I think in some cases people are not able to get out from under some of the recent mortgage debt.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184254 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:39 PM
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<<
Except for women, of course.
They were lower than slaves.
Husbands could "put away" their wives.
But wives had no option to "put away" their sorry husbands.

Phooey on a religion that treats women like cattle.


AM
>>

You should read 1 Corinthians 7:

A wife could divorce her husband but not allowed to remarry.
A husband could not divorce his wife.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:40 PM
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A wife could divorce her husband but not allowed to remarry.

-------


And under those conditions how would she support herself?

AM

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:49 PM
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<<
And under those conditions how would she support herself?

AM
>>

There were wealthy women in Roman and Greek cultures.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:51 PM
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There were wealthy women in Roman and Greek cultures.

-----------


And the ones who weren't?
And... I thought we were talking about the people to whom the Bible was speaking. Those were Romans and Greeks?

Let's don't stretch this.
OK?

AM

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184259 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:52 PM
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<<
And the ones who weren't?
And... I thought we were talking about the people to whom the Bible was speaking. Those were Romans and Greeks?

Let's don't stretch this.
OK?

AM

>>

ahmmm... do you know where Corinth was?

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:57 PM
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Ok, you win.
All women in biblical times had the option to divorce their husbands because they were wealthy and could support themselves. This makes it a really good directive from the Bible. I see that now. What a great deal for them.

AM

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184262 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 12:58 PM
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Corinth, or Korinth (Greek: ????????, Kórinthos) was a city-state (polis) on the Isthmus of Corinth, the narrow stretch of land that joins the Peloponnesus to the mainland of Greece, roughly halfway between Athens and Sparta. The modern town of Corinth is located approximately 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) northeast of the ancient ruins. Since 1896, systematic archaeological investigations of the Corinth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Corinth


I know some claim that wikipedia is not accurate... they are welcome to post a more authoritative link?

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184264 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 1:24 PM
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<<
Ok, you win.
All women in biblical times had the option to divorce their husbands because they were wealthy and could support themselves. This makes it a really good directive from the Bible. I see that now. What a great deal for them.

AM
>>

Oh getting a little snippy today.... did you have your orange juice this morning?

I would say that many men a few years ago were not able to divorce their wives because of the cost. Lose their homes but still paying the mortgage, support children and get to see them one weekend a month.

You were complaining about women not being allowed to divorce their husbands.. the NT does allow it

then you complained it was not written to Greeks and Romans ... it came from a letter to a church in Greece...

Now instead of acknowledge your ignorance you get snippy about it .... I was not trying to win.... just trying to help. Nobody won this but if you want to be happy in your ignorance I will stop responding to your posts.... I thought you wanted women to be educated not kept in ignorance!

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184265 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 2:15 PM
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While Nigel is technically correct that the NT does not support slavery, the OT does

I'm trying to avoid the low hanging fruit which is well protected. Point is Jesus said what he said about divorce and remarriage and that has been ignored.

Can't fill all those thousands and thousands of seats in a great big church if Daisy Mae can't proudly sit with her third husband, Ed Bob.

Philippians 3

15 The divine word of god doest not getth thee the bling. 16 Only a full house seeth the collection plate filled with glorious cheddar.

I'm not sure when I post stuff like this if my apartment in hell gets bigger or smaller.

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Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 2:19 PM
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Now instead of acknowledge your ignorance you get snippy about it .... I was not trying to win.... just trying to help. Nobody won this but if you want to be happy in your ignorance I will stop responding to your posts.... I thought you wanted women to be educated not kept in ignorance!

------------


Oh sorry about that.
I'm just an ignorant person.
I graduated summa cum laude on my looks.

However, I do accede to your superior knowledge on biblical times.

I'm glad, actually, to know that women could divorce their husbands.
However, I'm not convinced it was feasible for them to do so.

And none of this has anything to do with modern-day mortgages, visitation rights, or anything else. You are trying to re-direct. Stop it.

AM

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184267 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 2:20 PM
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15 The divine word of god doest not getth thee the bling. 16 Only a full house seeth the collection plate filled with glorious cheddar.

I'm not sure when I post stuff like this if my apartment in hell gets bigger or smaller.


I don't know about any of that but if it helps, you get a giant eye roll.
Ray

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Author: JAFO31 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184269 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 2:42 PM
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bdhinton

<<<Phooey on a religion that treats women like cattle.>>>

"Makes you wonder why so many women chose to follow Jesus, both then and now. They must have seen something."

Or perhaps they saw no better alternative?

JAFO

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184271 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 3:02 PM
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<<
I'm glad, actually, to know that women could divorce their husbands.
However, I'm not convinced it was feasible for them to do so.
>>
That would have been a nice first response.


<<
And none of this has anything to do with modern-day mortgages, visitation rights, or anything else. You are trying to re-direct. Stop it.

AM
>>

You are the one that commented about back then and I responded to your posts... Divorce is still not feasible for some that has not changed. That is why women stay in some abusive relationships... more afraid to leave than they are to stay. Others stay with unfaithful spouses because of economic or social reasons, husbands do too. The bible has very little to do with our current norms of behavior.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184272 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 3:03 PM
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<<
Or perhaps they saw no better alternative?

JAF
>>

Perhaps there has never been a better alternative.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184275 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 3:58 PM
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<<
I'm just an ignorant person.
I graduated summa cum laude on my looks.
>>

I assume that your field(s) of study did not include ancient history not geography?

I have known some students to get by on their looks but they did not graduate summa cum laude... that normally comes from a lot of hard work and some intelligence.... but I have a few of those to get snippy when challenged in areas where they are not as well informed..... There is vast amounts of knowledge at our finger tips these days... I have been studying biblical times and principles for over 30 years, I frequently disagree with preachers and pastors that graduated with high honors in the field, I do not usually accuse them of ignorance just being wrong and tied too much to a particular theology and not enough to the TRUTH..... they have a tendency to get snippy too.... go figure!

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184276 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 4:01 PM
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I think the case might have been similar to Thomas Jefferson who was not able to free his slaves because they were collateral for numerous debts.

Also made other pursuits available.

Heard recently (on NPR) that Jefferson is thought to have fathered several children with slave women.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184277 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 4:08 PM
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Heard recently (on NPR) that Jefferson is thought to have fathered several children with slave women.
===============================
That is hardly news. It's quite well-known that he had children with a slave woman named Sally Hemings, who was a sort of maid and personal assistant to his wife. After she died, he kept Sally around for his own purposes.

As for others, I don't know about that.

Bill

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Author: SeareachGiant Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184278 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 4:31 PM
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> Why do christian churches allow divorce?

Because failure can be acknowledged, repented from, and forgiven. Otherwise where would we be?

http://www.covchurch.org/resources/files/2010/04/Divorce-and...

Mark

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184279 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 4:46 PM
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Heard recently (on NPR) that Jefferson is thought to have fathered several children with slave women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson%E2%80%93Hemings_contr...

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/1998/11/16/jeffersons.ht...

This has been an issue since forever.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184280 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 4:48 PM
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Because failure can be acknowledged, repented from, and forgiven. Otherwise where would we be?

But not according to Jesus, and the discussion was how can the bible be the inerrant, divine word of god if the authoritative figures "interpret" those words to mean what they want at the time?

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Author: SeareachGiant Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184281 of 195642
Subject: Re: Contrast: A true Christian attitude Date: 11/16/2012 5:06 PM
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