Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (15) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: JONNYCAKE Big red star, 1000 posts CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 40870  
Subject: CoQ10 Date: 4/28/2005 7:01 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
New day, new question(s)... and good morning to all. Well, I ran CoQ10 past my medic yesterday. Thumbs not down and not up, just sideways. Says it won't hurt anyone to take it but the medical jury is still out on whether it really really does anyone anything. There has not been a double blind study on the stuff yet that he's aware of. So what did I do? I ran out and bought some anyway, 30 tabs at 200 mg. Why, I feel better already!

If anyone knows the answers to these, fire away:

1. How do you know how much to take, anyway?
2. How do you know if it's doing anything to your system? Like, can you suddenly run faster than a speeding train, or jump over tall buildings, or what?
3. How long are your supposed to take this stuff, like, for life? (They ain't cheap.)

Happy trails,
Jonnycake
Print the post Back To Top
Author: FlippoHip Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22224 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/28/2005 11:40 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 15
I can't help you on the CoQ10, but I sympathize about the doctor.

When my doc in Arizona was trying to "cure" my sinus headaches with a different prescription every month, I decided to give some homeopathy a try.
Whadayaknow. I found something to take the edge off.

Doc said it's all BS and it only works because I want it to work.
I told him I wanted all the crap he prescribed to work too, and it didn't.

He didn't have an answer for that.



Print the post Back To Top
Author: JONNYCAKE Big red star, 1000 posts CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22225 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/28/2005 12:58 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Hi FlippoHip,

Thanks for the feedback. I have since received a very interesting commentary from one of the major medical research providers on this very subject. I am waiting permission to clip and paste what was sent to me here on this board. It was an eye-opener for me. I hope it will be of benefit to the readers of this board.

Best regards,
Jonnycake

Print the post Back To Top
Author: CatherineCoy Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22226 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/28/2005 1:19 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
Doc said it's all BS and it only works because I want it to work. I told him I wanted all the crap he prescribed to work, too, and it didn't. He didn't have an answer for that.

Someone recently said to me, with respect to cancer treatment, "I think it is so important to believe that whatever medicine [conventional or natural] you are taking it will cure you, or possibly cure you."

Well, if that's the case, why in the world would someone "believe" that a toxic, expensive, riddled-with-side-effects concoction would cure you? If it was all in your head, wouldn't you rather believe that a frosty chocolate shake would cure you? While the placebo effect is a very real phenomenon, it can't totally account for real cures.

Your rebuttal was perfect.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: serenity321 One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22227 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/28/2005 3:06 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
What many people don't realize is that in many if not all states it is illegal for a doctor to prescribe anything that has not passed the rigors of the FDA. Consequently, they will tell you that taking vitamins "can't hurt," but they never say that it will actually help. Same with herbs, supplements, homeopathy, etc. They will never, ever tell you to take something that could get them in hot water.

Even if they could, many doctors don't follow the alternative medicine news at all, and they can't/won't prescribe what they don't understand.

Do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

Print the post Back To Top
Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22248 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/29/2005 5:58 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 7
Well, I ran CoQ10 past my medic yesterday. Thumbs not down and not up, just sideways. Says it won't hurt anyone to take it but the medical jury is still out on whether it really really does anyone anything. There has not been a double blind study on the stuff yet that he's aware of.

That's my take as well. I take CoQ10 (150 mg every other day). It is expensive. The short term therapeutic trials that I seen use 150 to 300 mg per day. So, I decided to compromise and use 150 mg every other day for long term...

I haven't reviewed studies for at least 6 - 12 months, but what I found in the past was that most studies used SERUM CoQ10 levels as an endpoint for measurement. Using heart muscle or skeletal muscle biopsies would be too invasive for routine studies. What they found was that statin therapy did lower the serum CoQ10 levels (as I recall, about 20-40%) and that CoQ10 supplements did restore serum CoQ10 levels significantly.

The problem with all these studies is that no one knows how serum CoQ10 levels relate to heart muscle or skeletal muscle CoQ10 levels. I've harped about homeostasis several times on this board. It's a difficult concept to grasp without advanced studies in biochemistry, physiology, and cell biology. But, in short, when you perturb one biochemical pathway, you simultaneously induce effects which will tend to offset those perturbations in an attempt for the body to maintain the status quo - i.e. to minimize any shift in metabolic equilibrium.

Statins DO NOT BLOCK the synthesis of cholesterol; they INHIBIT the synthesis of cholesterol.

Statins DO NOT BLOCK the synthesis of CoQ10; they INHIBIT the synthesis of CoQ10.

I make these distinctions because you often see reports using the word "block" when they really mean "inhibit". Strictly speaking, "block" should mean 100% inhibition and it is often interpreted as such. "Inhibit" means "partially blocked" or "reduced activity".

In biochemistry, we do not use "blocked" when talking about enzyme inhibition - instead we use more confusing terms like "competitive inhibition", "non-competitive inhibition", "uncompetitive inhibition", "allosteric inhibition", etc. They all mean something different and specific to the biochemist. There is no such thing as "blocked" in the context of an inhibitor unless it chemically inactivates the enzyme.

Lipitor inhibits the HMG CoA Reductase enzyme involved in the synthesis of cholesterol (and steroids and ubiquinone and polyisoprenyl compounds) by competive inhibition. It does NOT totally BLOCK the synthesis of any of those biological compounds. It just reduces their synthesis to varying amounts depending on the dose and the inhibitory constant (Ki) of the statin.

When you reduce the synthesis of this compounds (cholesterol, steroids, ubiquinones, etc), one of the homeostatic responses is to up-regulate the receptors in cells which need these compounds. Thus, one concept for how statins lower serum cholesterol levels is that the inhibition of cholesterol synthesis up-regulates cellular receptors for cholesterol absorption. Thus, it increases the cellular uptake of cholesterol from serum as it simultaneously reduces the synthesis of cholesterol by cells.

The same scenario may also be at play for ubiquinone (CoQ10). While statins may PARTIALLY inhibit the synthesis of ubiquinone, it results in an increase of cellular receptors to more efficiently grab any circulating ubiquinone out of the serum and put it to work in the cell's mitochondria where it belongs!

To make a long story short, the reduced serum levels of CoQ10 seen in patients treated with statins may simply reflect the up-regulation of cellular receptors for CoQ10 and may not be indicative of any deficiency of CoQ10 in heart muscle or skeletal muscle.

I'm truly sorry for the complexity of life. I wish I could have made it simpler...


OleGod






Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22249 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/29/2005 7:55 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
I'm truly sorry for the complexity of life. I wish I could have made it simpler...

OleGod



Don't fret, Your Holeyness, we have Deepak Chopra, Gary Null, drmercola etc. to help us make perfect sense of it all.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: JONNYCAKE Big red star, 1000 posts CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22250 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/29/2005 9:00 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
And don't forget that doctor person on Oprah. Dr. Bill? He'll save you.

Jonnycake

Print the post Back To Top
Author: JONNYCAKE Big red star, 1000 posts CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22251 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/29/2005 9:04 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Well, OleDocJ, bravo! You said a lot and it made perfect sense, even to a non-medically trained person like me. Thank you. A breath of fresh air. I hope I get the go-ahead to clip-n-paste-n-post the information sent to me yesterday. It mirrors your sound reasoning regarding medicines, supplemements and the like. It, like you post, is a good, thought-provoking read.

Yours in good health,
Jonnycake


Print the post Back To Top
Author: VeeEnn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22252 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/29/2005 9:14 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
Well, OleDocJ, bravo! You said a lot and it made perfect sense, even to a non-medically trained person like me. Thank you. A breath of fresh air.

A while back TurkeyBreath provided a link to a series of posts on one of the investment boards by a poster called emiller. I think his posts were called The Cholesterol Plays or something. If you could find them, you'd enjoy these, I'm pretty sure. Maybe TB can help out with wehere to find them.

It's nice when someone understands a subject well enough to explain it as nicely as OleDoc always manages. Almost in the same league as Deepak and his wonderfully understandable presentation of the world of quantum physics ;)

Print the post Back To Top
Author: TurkeyBreath Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22254 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 4/29/2005 10:48 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
...A while back TurkeyBreath provided a link to a series of posts on one of the investment boards by a poster called emiller. I think his posts were called The Cholesterol Plays or something. If you could find them, you'd enjoy these, I'm pretty sure. Maybe TB can help out with wehere to find them...

Per your request VeeEnn. I find a good deal of emiller8988 posts fascinating. His series concerning cholesterol is one of my favorites.

It starts with the following.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=21939508&recscode=2

TB

Print the post Back To Top
Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22300 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 5/2/2005 5:17 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0

I've harped about homeostasis several times on this board. It's a difficult concept to grasp without advanced studies in biochemistry, physiology, and cell biology. But, in short, when you perturb one biochemical pathway, you simultaneously induce effects which will tend to offset those perturbations in an attempt for the body to maintain the status quo - i.e. to minimize any shift in metabolic equilibrium.

If I culd reck that single thot 50 times it would not be enough.

Reading tonight to catch up was a fast play of taking this to cause that and then taking another to stop in part that because of another thing but still wanting this to be unincumbered because that is a desired effect... While never eating steamed maple leaves because they have been shown to inhibit the effect of that in studies.

It is beyond me how ANY drug can work reliably.

Chris


Print the post Back To Top
Author: OleDocJ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22301 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 5/2/2005 7:21 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
It is beyond me how ANY drug can work reliably

You got it!!!

There have been thousands and thousands of drugs designed which should have worked but didn't. The reason? The inhibition was simply negated by feedback loops in metabolic pathways or regulation of receptors.

That's why new drugs have to pass the test in double blind controlled trials. Logically, they ought to work. BUT, homeostasis beats logic nine times out of ten!!!


OleDoc


Print the post Back To Top
Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22308 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 5/3/2005 12:13 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2

That's why new drugs have to pass the test in double blind controlled trials. Logically, they ought to work. BUT, homeostasis beats logic nine times out of ten!!!


OleDoc


Then you get into drug interactions. I like people that admit there is no understanding there. If there are any.

Chris



Print the post Back To Top
Author: nf Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 22325 of 40870
Subject: Re: CoQ10 Date: 5/4/2005 1:07 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
That's why new drugs have to pass the test in double blind controlled trials. Logically, they ought to work. BUT, homeostasis beats logic nine times out of ten!!!


OleDoc

Then you get into drug interactions. I like people that admit there is no understanding there. If there are any.

Chris
============

Gee, I hoped for more interaction on this. Guess the pontifying event ended with no cascading cause.

My next point is the unexplained yet positive effect/use of failed (or not) for the intended purpose drugs that in trials (or outside) expose themselves as positivly usefull for a totally unintended purpose.

It is not possible unless you are god to predict what will happen in time and usage. After the fact is easyier but never complete.

Chris

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (15) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement