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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 56843  
Subject: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/7/2007 8:39 PM
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Here's a little blog about how a Dallas, TX audience responded to Sicko:

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Sicko-Spurs-Audiences-Into-Action-5639.html
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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7852 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/7/2007 8:58 PM
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"Here's a little blog about how a Dallas, TX audience responded to Sicko:

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Sicko-Spurs-Audiences-Into-Action-5639.html "

From what I've read, the movie fails on three big points..

a) It never dicusses how much this is going to cost.

b) In never discusses or even looks at how other countries fund their 'universal health care' (which usually is universal mandatory payments to the health system whether you are working or not - it is taken out of your unemployment check)......or how it would be paid int he USA...likely the same way.

He always expects that magically the money will appear.....

c) He never discusses the waiting lists, cricital doctor shortages and trained professionals, and need to import half the doctors in Britain and other European countries. He never discusses that some will die on the waiting lists for procedures like in Canada. OR that 'second opinions' and other things aren't covered, like plastic surgury?

It's nice to think that all these problems will be magically solved with OTHER PEOPLE's money.

His "roger and me" didn't do anything for the auto industry, other than convince a lot of folks to buy a Japanese made car. Why bother with GM? TOo many problems.

Cowboy probably figured he probably wouldn't have to pay $700 a month for family health coverage like he does now........ except he'd have to pay that much or more....with funding the 'universal health care' program....


t.








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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7853 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/7/2007 9:22 PM
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Oh, nonsence.


I expect the Harry Potter movie to energize a lot more people next week than Sicko or Michael Moore ever will. My nephew did a great impression of Harry Potter at Halloween in 1999 ---- does anyone ever expect to see a kid dressed as Michael Moore at Halloween?


Seattle Pioneer

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7856 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/7/2007 10:03 PM
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Oh, nonsence.


I expect the Harry Potter movie to energize a lot more people next week than Sicko or Michael Moore ever will. My nephew did a great impression of Harry Potter at Halloween in 1999 ---- does anyone ever expect to see a kid dressed as Michael Moore at Halloween?


Seattle Pioneer



ROTFLMAO!
This is, without doubt, the lamest reply you have ever posted.
And you misspelled nonsense, too.

AM
....laughing and laughing and laughing....

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7857 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/7/2007 10:07 PM
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>> And you misspelled nonsense, too. <<

"Nonsence" *does* sound like a British spelling, though....

#29

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Author: ggiovanni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7860 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 7:46 AM
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From what I've read, the movie fails on three big points..

You would have a lot more credibility if you actually saw the movie than depending on reading what FoxNews tells you to believe.

a) It never dicusses how much this is going to cost.
Yes, it did. It talks about higher taxes in France. But as they interviewed these higher income people that were taxed more heavily, they still seemed to do just fine.

b) In never discusses or even looks at how other countries fund their 'universal health care' (which usually is universal mandatory payments to the health system whether you are working or not - it is taken out of your unemployment check)......or how it would be paid int he USA...likely the same way. He always expects that magically the money will appear.....

You mean the same magic that right-wingers expect regarding how to pay for Bush's "wonderful" war in Iraq. You do realize it is funded with deficit payments?!

As mentioned in above in a), the movie talked about higher taxes to fund it. By the way, when did you EVER hear your own hero Bush talk about how to fund his war in Iraq? Maybe you should clean up your own back yard before you complain about the other side.

c) He never discusses the waiting lists, cricital doctor shortages and trained professionals, and need to import half the doctors in Britain and other European countries. He never discusses that some will die on the waiting lists for procedures like in Canada. OR that 'second opinions' and other things aren't covered, like plastic surgury?

As mentioned above, it is clear you didn't see the movie and that you are depending on other right-wingers with an agenda. If you had bothered with seeing the movie, you would have seen Moore talk to his relatives in Canada. He brought up the subject of waiting lists and it obviously was not a deal breaker.

By the way, do you see your own contradiction? You are trying to blast the doctor shortages in Canada because of their socialized healthcare. Then in your own writing, your are admitting that they import doctors from Britain. What does Britain have? Socialized healthcare! So, apparently there are NO doctor shortages in Britain, a country with socialized healthcare! Thank you for admitting it.

On a personal note; I worked for a couple of years in Sweden. I still have friends there. They have socialized healthcare. Everyone is part of the system. Every citizen also have the option of being part of a supplemental system, which for a small extra premium allows you to bypass the waiting list. In other words, waiting lists (if there were any) do not have to be problem. It is a made up issue by right-wingers with an agenda, who have never been in other countries with socialized health care.

Additionally, a couple of months ago I tried to visit my knee doctor here in Minnesota. He wasn't available. Do you know why? He was visiting Sweden for business. Apparently a doctor in Sweden had come up with a new procedure for a certain knee surgery and my American doctor wanted to learn more about it. How bad can socialized health care be, when US doctors try to learn from it?

It's nice to think that all these problems will be magically solved with OTHER PEOPLE's money.

Please! OTHER PEOPLE's money? I am paying for your idiotic war in Iraq. I was against it from the get go but I am forced to pay for it. Is it unfair? You are damn right. But I deal with it. It is about time you people also had to pay for something you disapprove of. Deal with it!

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7862 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:35 AM
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<<It's nice to think that all these problems will be magically solved with OTHER PEOPLE's money.

Please! OTHER PEOPLE's money? I am paying for your idiotic war in Iraq. I was against it from the get go but I am forced to pay for it. Is it unfair? You are damn right. But I deal with it. It is about time you people also had to pay for something you disapprove of. Deal with it!
>>




I think it's fair to compare the resentment my Liberal friends feel for paying for the Iraq war funded and unfunded, with the similar resentment conservatives feel for having the bright ideas of Liberals sucking the life out of their wallets.

One difference is that Liberals plan to fasten such costs on taxpayers FOREVER, while the Iraq war has been over for years, the costs of rebuilding after that war are presumably already declining and even the costs of the occupation will go away within a few years.



<<From what I've read, the movie fails on three big points..

You would have a lot more credibility if you actually saw the movie than depending on reading what FoxNews tells you to believe.
>>>


And please, it's unreasonable to demand that everyone see Michael Moore's epic before commenting on it. As I've noted, Michael Moore is properly charaterized as a propagandist, not an academic. He is not making any original arguments over the issues surrounding national healthcare. He is merely packaging them in emotionally appealing ways.

Nothing wrong with that ---Rush Limbaugh does the same thing. That's what skilled propagandists do, and why they are important and may be powerful.

But we can and do deal with the same issues here. We don't really need Michael Moore's packaging job to do that.



National health care failed in the 1990s when Clinton tried it because the middle class who already has great health care saw that national health care would reduce the quality of the care they received and increase their health care costs. That's why it's always failed to date.

Liberals have been trying for decades to undermine those facts at the margins in order to undermine the existing private health care model. Doing such things as requiring hospitals to treat people at emergency rooms regardless of ability to pay, requiring very high standards of health care and funneling ever more people into public health care plans have all helped drive up costs and help undermine private health care.

The present emphasis of health care Liberals is to establish systems of universal coverage in individual states. Such a system has already been tried in my state of Washington, and failed spectacularly because lots of people resisted the idea of having health care handed to them if they were expected to pay for it. I notice that these new state systems usually involve using employers to get around the fact that people still don't like the idea of paying for their health care costs.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: ggiovanni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7865 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 10:01 AM
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c) He never discusses the waiting lists, cricital doctor shortages and trained professionals, and need to import half the doctors in Britain and other European countries. He never discusses that some will die on the waiting lists for procedures like in Canada. OR that 'second opinions' and other things aren't covered, like plastic surgury?

It looks like I misread what Telegraph had argued in this paragraph. He is indeed correct that Britain has needed to import doctors, although I don't know how many doctors they had needed to import.

First, the shortages are the result of Britain's attempting to deliver cheaper health care. They spend far less of their GDP on health care when compared to the United States. Not bad when one considers that their population is healthier than ours and also have a higher life expectancy than ours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7866 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 12:30 PM
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And please, it's unreasonable to demand that everyone see Michael Moore's epic before commenting on it writes SP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say what!

If you are going to criticize something you should see, read or visit it.

That's 101.

buzman



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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7867 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 12:44 PM
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National health care failed in the 1990s when Clinton tried it because the middle class who already has great health care saw that national health care would reduce the quality of the care they received and increase their health care costs.

I disagree. We never had a debate about access to health care. The insurance industry deftly managed to shift it to a debate about access to health insurance, a totally different animal. FWIW, what I've read about Sicko doesn't encourage me that its emphasis is not on the same.

There's something fundamentally wrong with a health care system that encourages the uninsured to forego preventive medicine then treat hospital ER's as their primary care providers.

Because I had to sort out some billings I happen to have in front of me a stack of papers dealing with my cardiologist. The charge for the visit is $325.00, the BCBS "negotiated" adjustment is $206.33, leaving her getting paid $118.67 for the visit. I have to assume that she finds this payment reasonable or she wouldn't agree to be a Preferred Provider. The question I ask is why this service provided to Joe Schlub with no insurance costs $325 while the same service provided to me costs $118.67.

Phil



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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7868 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 12:47 PM
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National health care failed in the 1990s when Clinton tried it because the middle class who already has great health care saw that national health care would reduce the quality of the care they received and increase their health care costs. That's why it's always failed to date.
Fair enough. I agree with this. However, fewer and fewer middle class people are being covered by their employers. It was in the 60%s a few years ago and is now down to about 54% I think. As the percentage dips below 50%, 40%, and lower there WILL be a change here. It's inevitable. It's just that most middle class people aren't feling the pain yet. And certainly not our representatives, who have lovely government-provided insurance. But wait five, ten years and we will have some kind of national health care instituted. And it will be because the middle class are affected by the problems currently emerging.

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Author: HamletsMill Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7869 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 12:59 PM
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If I can cram in some supplemental information about the Swedish health model:

The government pays for medical education. Thus, physicians in Sweden do not have the huge starting costs that almost all American doctors have. While there are a number of private physicians, most are salaried; as a consequence, average incomes tend to be between 2 and 3 times the national average, as opposed to 4 to 8 times in America. (And the income ratio between RN's and MD's in Sweden is much lower than in the U.S.)
Malpractice costs are generally quite a bit lower. Sweden uses basically a form of no-fault compensation – which considerably improves the attitudes of healthcare providers and patients. Far more Swedes apply for compensation than Americans, but the average payment is a fraction of what is generally given in the States. Basic coverage is paid by local authorities (the Swedish healthcare system, while nationally uniform, is largely run on the local level). Additional insurance is bought by physicians to handle those few cases that actually go to trial (awards are capped at around $700,000). The percentage of doctors that are disciplined (warning, temporary suspension, loss of license) if found at fault is higher than in the States.

Pharmacies are State owned and operated. The price of prescriptions is the wholesale price plus operating costs; there is no profit markup. Prices are capped as well for the more expensive drugs – both at the distribution end, and how much the government is willing to pay the manufacturers.

Dentistry, outside of major orthodontic work, is largely private. However average costs are lower. Interestingly, a common practice for families is to pay a retainer fee to their local dentist inside of insurance or pay-for-service.


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7871 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 1:31 PM
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<<And please, it's unreasonable to demand that everyone see Michael Moore's epic before commenting on it writes SP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say what!

If you are going to criticize something you should see, read or visit it.

That's 101.

buzman
>>



So you listen to Rush Limbaugh three hours per day to keep up with his line of argument?




Michael Moore is talking about a public policy he thinks should be adopted. I don't need his movie to discuss such issues in a thoughtful or rational way ---- not when I have my Liberal friends to carry on such a discussion.

If you are going to review the acting in a movie, I'd say you need to see it to judge it. That's not true when you are discussing the propaganda generated by a partisan on a political issue, which best describes Michael Moore.


I feel the same way about AlGore's propaganda epic, "An Inconvenient Truth." There is no particular reason I need to be the captive audience of a politician with a point of view to sell. I'm open to discussing the issues raised, and do so very often. I prefer to do so in forums like this one where ideas can be discussed back and forth rather than simply hearing the packaged political product.


There are occasions where listening to the propagandist in person is worthwhile. I attended one of Lewis Farrakhan's lectures once upon a time, I was impressed by the impact of a talented and charismatic propagandist. Similarly, I've seen Michael Moore's "Roger and Me" and "Bowling for Columbine" in which Michael Moore repeats his weak arguments in semi dramatic ways to showcase them to best effect.

All Michael Moore does is repeat the methods he showcased in "Roger and Me." Like Lewis Farrakhan and Rush Limbaugh, it's worth seeing once to see the methods used, but no one should feel obligated to sit through repeat performances unless they enjoy that kind of thing.



Seattle Pioneer





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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7872 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 1:34 PM
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>> There's something fundamentally wrong with a health care system that encourages the uninsured to forego preventive medicine then treat hospital ER's as their primary care providers. <<

I'd go farther than that and say that it can even discourage the well-insured from getting preventative/wellness care. I have a very good health plan, but I don't plan on having this plan until I'm 65 (and that assumes there's still a Medicare for me more than 23 years from now). In fact, I'm not even planning on having it until I'm 50, either because I'm ready to retire (or semi-retire at least), or because my employer won't want my services any more. After that there's a good chance I'll have to be on my own for health insurance, and I'm really afraid one aberrant reading of 'white coat hypertension', a slightly elevated glucose level or an odd liver enzyme count can effectively price me out of decent care at that time. I really should get an exam, but I'm afraid of having any of these in my medical history.

I'm hoping this will be less of a concern as I work myself into better shape, but even then I can't help but shake the fact that one unfortunate reading on the blood panel will kick me into the "undesirable" category.

#29

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7873 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 1:38 PM
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>> So you listen to Rush Limbaugh three hours per day to keep up with his line of argument? <<

And O'Reilly. I assume he never misses an episode of O'Reilly. Seriously, I'm tired of the "if you haven't seen it, you have no basis for knocking it" argument with respect to Michael Moore movies. Like an episode of Limbaugh or O'Reilly, you know what you're going to get. And you know what their arguments are going to be. And you know how they will present their position.

Anyone who holds this position is not competent, by using their own argument against them, to criticize Limbaugh and his position on something if they did not listen to the piece in question.

I've seen enough Moore to know what he does and how he does it. I don't feel I have to watch every minute of every Moore work to have a pretty good idea of what it entails. Having said that, I plan to see it someday, but not in a way that will fatten his coffers.

#29

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7875 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 1:42 PM
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<<There's something fundamentally wrong with a health care system that encourages the uninsured to forego preventive medicine then treat hospital ER's as their primary care providers.
>>


The flaw is requiring emergency rooms to treat people who can't afford to pay for the services they want.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: hockeypop Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7876 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 2:03 PM
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There's something fundamentally wrong with a health care system that encourages the uninsured to forego preventive medicine then treat hospital ER's as their primary care providers.

And in case SP isn't looking, this is coming from conservatives, not liberals. My son has been off our health insurance for two years so we sprung for a trip to our dentist this week to find out what's the matter. $165 for a cleaning to also let me know that he needs $1,600 in wisdom tooth removal and cavities.

Now my dentist of 15 years gave us a pre-filled cost sheet he uses, no discounts for five people coming to him for those years. I should say our ex-dentist.

Look it up. There is nothing that creates poor health faster than bad teeth. We're lucky enough to have the resources to shop around or even go to the Dental College for DS. What's everyone else to do?

Not sure I'm interpreting Phil right, but I think it's time this issue has a reasonable national discussion.

Hockeypop



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7877 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 2:18 PM
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<<There's something fundamentally wrong with a health care system that encourages the uninsured to forego preventive medicine then treat hospital ER's as their primary care providers.

And in case SP isn't looking, this is coming from conservatives, not liberals. My son has been off our health insurance for two years so we sprung for a trip to our dentist this week to find out what's the matter. $165 for a cleaning to also let me know that he needs $1,600 in wisdom tooth removal and cavities.
>>


There are plenty of young people who will spend for travel, cars and other luxuries but not for their own health or dental care.


Is your son one of them? What luxuries has he spent for in those years may I ask?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: umphy Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7878 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 2:23 PM
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It is quite unbelievable that sentient human beings believe in UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE........how about Universal Health KAR!!...once yer KAR gets SICK just take it along ta yer Local dealership and get it FIXED fer "FREE"....................as a Canadian we are paying CLOSE to 45% of GDP in Ontario fer "Health CARE!!!"......and the MOB are screaming fer MORE and Better and less wait times and NEW drugs oh HELL experimental drugs fer ALL 'cos Auntie May at 88 might DIE!!!!!!

Give everyone a free Gym membership (COMPULSORY) and Dr Phil & Oprah ta Brow beat them...would be cheaper.................

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7879 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 2:37 PM
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I make it a rule of thumb never to trust anyone who feels the need to add more than three exclamation points to a sentence.

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7880 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 2:41 PM
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It is quite unbelievable that sentient human beings believe in UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE........how about Universal Health KAR!!...once yer KAR gets SICK just take it along ta yer Local dealership and get it FIXED fer "FREE"....................as a Canadian we are paying CLOSE to 45% of GDP in Ontario fer "Health CARE!!!"......and the MOB are screaming fer MORE and Better and less wait times and NEW drugs oh HELL experimental drugs fer ALL 'cos Auntie May at 88 might DIE!!!!!!

Give everyone a free Gym membership (COMPULSORY) and Dr Phil & Oprah ta Brow beat them...would be cheaper.....


Yeah, Life is about choices. Medical care, Mmmm? OK. Other sht liek cars and swimming pools, Mmmm...? Nope. See, it's called freedom. Free to choose. Cant see how someone perporting to be a a sentient being keeps bringing up the same d/h unsentient arguments. Who would kill due to a non-improved health care delivery system? Who would you want to see dead due to keeping the same system? No matter what the system is seems like somebody wants to kill somebody else. Who do you want dead and why shouldn't it be you?



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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7881 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 2:49 PM
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The flaw is requiring emergency rooms to treat people who can't afford to pay for the services they want.

I'm more than happy to count myself among those who prefer not to let the poor die in the streets for lack of medical attention regardless of how we end up paying for it. Thank God I'm still in a majority in this country, at least on that. Now if we could just do something about people's attitude toward the barbaric practice of capital punishment.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your remark, and you were actually speaking to earaches and sniffles in the ER. I fully agree that this is an inappropriate setting for such matters. The problem in many areas: where do we send them?

Phil

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7882 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 3:14 PM
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The flaw is requiring emergency rooms to treat people who can't afford to pay for the services they want.

Seattle Pioneer


Avoiding the real problem once again. That would rob many of something to hate. The problem is an economic system that doesn't pay the vast majority of it's citizens enough up-front for their work in this world to afford what they need. You have to have brains enough to see the real problem and give damn enough to actually fix problems. You know, that behavioral trait that separates humans from animals



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Author: jiml8 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7883 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 3:25 PM
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Then in your own writing, your are admitting that they import doctors from Britain. What does Britain have? Socialized healthcare! So, apparently there are NO doctor shortages in Britain, a country with socialized healthcare!

Britain has been importing lots of doctors from the middle east and the south of asia.

As we've seen in the last week, turns out at least some of them are terrorists.

tsk.

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7884 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 3:41 PM
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Most western countries import doctors. My dentist is Filipino. My GP is Indian. My OBGYN is American-born. I get great service from all of them.

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Author: umphy Three stars, 500 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7885 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 4:46 PM
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when is the next shipment arriving.............i need servicing.....

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7886 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 4:48 PM
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So you listen to Rush Limbaugh three hours per day to keep up with his line of argument?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually I have brain so I don't listen to Rush three hours a day.

I listen to Rush until he tells a lie. Which is about every thirty seconds.

buzman

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7887 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 4:50 PM
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#29: And O'Reilly. I assume he never misses an episode of O'Reilly. Seriously, I'm tired of the "if you haven't seen it, you have no basis for knocking it" argument with respect to Michael Moore movies. Like an episode of Limbaugh or O'Reilly, you know what you're going to get. And you know what their arguments are going to be. And you know how they will present their position.

I have heard both Limbaugh and O'Liely several times. They are reptitous, so I won't be repeating the experience. I don't have to rely on others to give me my opinions of either of them.

cliff

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Author: buzman Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7888 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 4:53 PM
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And O'Reilly. I assume he never misses an episode of O'Reilly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's opposite Olbermann-I listen to Bill on the radio until he tells a lie. Doesn't take long.

buzman

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7889 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 4:59 PM
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Dentistry, outside of major orthodontic work, is largely private. However average costs are lower. Interestingly, a common practice for families is to pay a retainer fee to their local dentist inside of insurance or pay-for-service. - HamletsMill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My baby sister immigrated to Sweden two years ago. She had a rear molar in the back of her mouth that had cracked in half and needed some real attention to it. It ended up costing her $75.00 to have it fixed in Sweden. No telling how much it would have cost in the United States. I had three rear molars worked on a few years ago at an expensive dentist in Knoxville, Tennessee and it ended up costing several thousand dollars total. Can't remember exactly but it was A LOT!

My baby sister is 49 years old, divorced, met some guy on the Internet from some city in Sweden that is like 50 miles North of Stockholm. She has definite socialist leanings and was not happy with what was happening politically in the United States. Anyway, she was tired of the United States, war in Iraq, etc. so she decided to actually do something about it and moved to Sweden. Believe it or not.

Where she lives is quite rural, like wolves and moose and stuff. It's a small town, just a couple of miles to the countryside, and she says it snows a lot there. She's been back to the United States twice to see her two sons (who are finished with high school).

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7890 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 5:01 PM
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There are occasions where listening to the propagandist in person is worthwhile. I attended one of Lewis Farrakhan's lectures once upon a time, I was impressed by the impact of a talented and charismatic propagandist - SP
---------------------------

I've watched Louis Farrakhan several times on TV. I was quite impressed with his arguments and he made me ashamed to be white. If nothing else it helped me to be more empathetic with what it means to be black.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7891 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 5:08 PM
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The flaw is requiring emergency rooms to treat people who can't afford to pay for the services they want. - Seattle Pioneer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This would only be true if there were alternatives to the Federally regulated health care system we have now. Goverment interference in health care has caused the cost of health care to skyrocket out of reach of the average person, and especially lower middle class and poor people.

There are a dearth of doctors because of the myriad of regulations required to be a doctor. The same is true of hospital accreditation programs. And the same applies to the FDA and the many reg's for pharmaceuticals.

Only a very small minority of people can afford or have the grades to get into a Medical School. The amount of time it takes to become a doctor also makes becoming a doctor unreasonable for most people.

What is the answer? Either get in, or get out. The Federal Goverment's interference and regulation has caused health care to be out of reach of a large percentage of the population and that is why I believe they have a moral obligation to treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay the skyrocketin costs associated with health care.

Art

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7893 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 5:15 PM
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Now if we could just do something about people's attitude toward the barbaric practice of capital punishment. - Phil
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I would a whole lot rather be humanely put to sleep than spend the rest of my life locked in a 4' x 10' cell 23 hours a day. As far as I'm concerned when someone is euthanized it's not a whole lot different than opening the gates to the prison and letting them go free. If I were on death row I'd want them to put me to sleep as soon as possible. Preferably the same day. I'm serious. - Art


"There is a delicious irony in all this. Most people perceive 'death' as one of the worst evils they could experience in their lives (whether it be their own death or that of loved ones) yet if the experiences of Near Death (NDE) had by so many are anywhere near the 'truth', then the most beautiful experience a human being is ever going to have in this life is his or her own death. The irony of the perceived worst being the best highlights the cosmic humour which seems to underlie the 'Game' associated with experience in this realm." - excerpt from Alex Paterson's NDE;
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/esoteric/nde.htm



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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7894 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 5:18 PM
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Most western countries import doctors. My dentist is Filipino. My GP is Indian. My OBGYN is American-born. I get great service from all of them. - Gingko
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I used to have a female Dentist that was from India. What a knock-out! She was beautiful. I was sad when she got pregnant and quit working at the clinic where I went.

The doctor who X-rayed my hips and told me I have severe arthritis in them was from India. He was so kind and took the time to talk to me about what I'd need to do. I really liked him too. I don't have any problems with using doctors from other countries. As long as I can understand them it's no problem for me.

Art


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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7895 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 5:43 PM
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ER. I fully agree that this is an inappropriate setting for such matters. The problem in many areas: where do we send them?

Phil
----------

Here in Traverse City, Mi., there are a number of walk in clinics that do take the load away from the ER.

This is a traditional conservative wealthy area that demographics are changing as their more progressive liberal / independent spawn are coming to age & taking over business & civic arenas.

Our local hospital is staffed in direct proportion to the affluence, I myself have been on staff there.

Also as a curio, this is the home now of Michael Moore who has developed a fab & growing in esteem film festival that begins in a week or so for its 3rd or 4th year.

Joseph, happy to live in progressive-ville.

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7896 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 6:22 PM
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>> Actually I have brain so I don't listen to Rush three hours a day. <<

See, this is exactly my point. You tune him out (and insult those who don't, nice work) and yet you seem to act eminently qualified to pass judgment on him and the things he says.

And you seem to indicate that people who have seen some of Moore's work and know about him well enough to know his pattern and positions should not pass judgment until they see everything he does.

I see a clear double standard here.

#29

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7897 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 6:41 PM
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SeattlePioneer says

The flaw is requiring emergency rooms to treat people who can't afford to pay for the services they want.

Let 'em die on the sidewalk. That's Econ 101.

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7899 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 6:54 PM
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ziggy29 says

>> Actually I have brain so I don't listen to Rush three hours a day. <<

See, this is exactly my point. You tune him out (and insult those who don't, nice work) and yet you seem to act eminently qualified to pass judgment on him and the things he says.

And you seem to indicate that people who have seen some of Moore's work and know about him well enough to know his pattern and positions should not pass judgment until they see everything he does.

I see a clear double standard here.


Oy! Anyone can have any opinion they want about health care, or about Michael Moore. But to pass judgment on a particular Michael Moore movie without seeing it is just stupid.

And no, I don't listen to Limbaugh or watch O'Reilly, and I don't pass judgment on their shows either. I've seen them both quoted enough to figure out they're jerks, though.

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7900 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 6:59 PM
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>> Oy! Anyone can have any opinion they want about health care, or about Michael Moore. But to pass judgment on a particular Michael Moore movie without seeing it is just stupid. <<

I agree -- IF you are talking about specifics mentioned in the film.

But you don't need to know specifics of every film to make general statements about Michael Moore, who he is, how he operates and what he believes.

But even when someone makes a general comment about Moore -- NOT film-specific -- the inevitable retort comes: "Have you seen it? No? Then shut up." Or something to that effect.

That's a fair point IF someone was talking about a particular point in the film or passing judgment on some specific scene even when they hadn't seen it first-hand. But not if one is just calling Moore a loose-with-the-truth political hack like Limbaugh or O'Reilly.

#29

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7901 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 7:07 PM
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umphy writes,

It is quite unbelievable that sentient human beings believe in UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE........how about Universal Health KAR!!...once yer KAR gets SICK just take it along ta yer Local dealership and get it FIXED fer "FREE"....................as a Canadian we are paying CLOSE to 45% of GDP in Ontario fer "Health CARE!!!"......and the MOB are screaming fer MORE and Better and less wait times and NEW drugs oh HELL experimental drugs fer ALL 'cos Auntie May at 88 might DIE!!!!!!

Give everyone a free Gym membership (COMPULSORY) and Dr Phil & Oprah ta Brow beat them...would be cheaper.................


Did you and telegraph go to the same school?

The Province of Ontario reported a GDP of $42,866 per capita in the year 2005. I assume that it's grown a bit since then. See link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario

Ontario spent $4,760 per capita on healthcare in 2006.

http://www.insurance-canada.ca/consinfohealth/infonews/2007/CIHI-Health-care-spending-701.php

That's a ratio of 11.1%, much less than the 46% figure you cite without reference.

intercst





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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7902 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 7:23 PM
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ziggy29 says

I agree -- IF you are talking about specifics mentioned in the film.

But you don't need to know specifics of every film to make general statements about Michael Moore, who he is, how he operates and what he believes.

But even when someone makes a general comment about Moore -- NOT film-specific -- the inevitable retort comes: "Have you seen it? No? Then shut up." Or something to that effect.

That's a fair point IF someone was talking about a particular point in the film or passing judgment on some specific scene even when they hadn't seen it first-hand. But not if one is just calling Moore a loose-with-the-truth political hack like Limbaugh or O'Reilly.


I'd love to know what posts you are talking about. I haven't seen anyone taken to task for making a general comment about Moore without having seen Sicko.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7903 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 7:29 PM
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<<Oy! Anyone can have any opinion they want about health care, or about Michael Moore. But to pass judgment on a particular Michael Moore movie without seeing it is just stupid.

>>



Your first comments refelcts my own opinion. Your second comment makes no sense.


Michael Moore's films aren't "Art." They are propaganda for his causes and views. Nothing wrong with that, but the issues he raises are bettter analyzed outside the biased and emotional media he creates.

There is nothing wrong with propaganda, but let's not confuse it with dispassionate analysis of serious issues. The idea that people have an obligation to listen to Michael Moore's propaganda in order to be "fair" is absurd. We discuss many of the issues he raises on this board every day, and the issues are dealt with more seriously here than in his films.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7904 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 7:34 PM
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<<I'd love to know what posts you are talking about. I haven't seen anyone taken to task for making a general comment about Moore without having seen Sicko.
>>



And please, it's unreasonable to demand that everyone see Michael Moore's epic before commenting on it writes SP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Say what!

If you are going to criticize something you should see, read or visit it.

That's 101.

buzman


Post #7866

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Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7906 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:09 PM
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I see a clear double standard here.

Here's my thesis for the day:

1) Michael Moore is a blowhard gasbag
2) Rush Limbaugh is a blowhard gasbag

One reliable indicator of unthinking partisanship is denial of exactly one of the above statements.

sydsydsyd

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Author: Gingko100 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7907 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:20 PM
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Yeah syd!!!!

I actually support Michael Moore, in that I think he jump starts an important dialogue. I mostly support his POV. But I think even his most ardent supporters would admit he is totally biased, makes no attempt at objectivity, and delivers his POV as a packaged product rather than anything resembling journalism.

He is a provacateur, and there is a role for such in any society. They can be catalysts.

And just because people don't like him doesn't mean our health care system isn't screwed up.

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7908 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:27 PM
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>> One reliable indicator of unthinking partisanship is denial of exactly one of the above statements. <<

Well said.

#29

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7909 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:28 PM
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The question I ask is why this service provided to Joe Schlub with no insurance costs $325 while the same service provided to me costs $118.67.

Hmmm ... maybe because the insurance company always sends that $118 check for each patient, while only one out of three Joe Schlub's actually pay their bill? In the end, the doctor gets about $118 per visit on average.


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Author: ebost Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7910 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:30 PM
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In my office, a person who pays cash gets a discount and is asked to pay me approximately what insurance would pay me. Those who bother to pay anything at all usually pay less than any insurer would pay for the same treatment. So your cardiologist has to cover the cost of seeing other patients at a discount. And if your cardiologist sent the insurer a bill for $118, she would likely get $100 or so "adjusted" off, leaving her with $18, an amount she would probably not find reasonable.

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Author: markr33 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7911 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:34 PM
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They are repetitious, so I won't be repeating the experience.

What exactly did you find repetitious about O'Reilly? I haven't listened (never watched, sometimes listened on XM) to him in months, but he always had quite varied shows back then.


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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7912 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:44 PM
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eboost: In my office, a person who pays cash gets a discount and is asked to pay me approximately what insurance would pay me. Those who bother to pay anything at all usually pay less than any insurer would pay for the same treatment. So your cardiologist has to cover the cost of seeing other patients at a discount. And if your cardiologist sent the insurer a bill for $118, she would likely get $100 or so "adjusted" off, leaving her with $18, an amount she would probably not find reasonable.

Remarkable! You have been a Fool sonce 2000, and this is your first post? We are honored! Could you share what motivated you to speak (metaphorically speaking) up?

Btw, I find my dentist will give me 5% off for paying instead of going the insurance route. Are you sure an insurance company only pays $18 out of a $118 bill? No wonder they are only making 25% profit!

cliff

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7913 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:49 PM
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<<I see a clear double standard here.

Here's my thesis for the day:

1) Michael Moore is a blowhard gasbag
2) Rush Limbaugh is a blowhard gasbag

One reliable indicator of unthinking partisanship is denial of exactly one of the above statements.

sydsydsyd
>>



Well, I think propagandists can provide useful services to politics, and serve the general interest in the process. They sharpen issues ---clarify them for various populations and make them understandable, real and immediete. They can take an issue that's just laying there and turn it into a voting issue ---one people are ready to act upon.


Not necessarily ways that are entirely honest to a disnterested spectator, but they can activate people and populations, for good or ill. Limbaugh does that ---so does Michael Moore. That's often why their opponents hate and despise them ardently.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7914 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:50 PM
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Curious ...

In my office, a person who pays cash gets a discount and is asked to pay me approximately what insurance would pay me.

do all Insurance companies pay about the same ?



Those who bother to pay anything at all usually pay less than any insurer would pay for the same treatment. So your cardiologist has to cover the cost of seeing other patients at a discount. And if your cardiologist sent the insurer a bill for $118, she would likely get $100 or so "adjusted" off, leaving her with $18, an amount she would probably not find reasonable.


insurance pays some percentage of what you bill?
or some $$ discount?

they don't have 'schedule' of what they pay for each process ?


=

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7915 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 9:52 PM
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SeattlePioneer says

Michael Moore's films aren't "Art." They are propaganda for his causes and views. Nothing wrong with that, but the issues he raises are bettter analyzed outside the biased and emotional media he creates.

Is it impossible, then, to talk about the movie's qualities as a propaganda movie? Yes, it is if you haven't seen it.

There is nothing wrong with propaganda, but let's not confuse it with dispassionate analysis of serious issues. The idea that people have an obligation to listen to Michael Moore's propaganda in order to be "fair" is absurd. We discuss many of the issues he raises on this board every day, and the issues are dealt with more seriously here than in his films.

Nobody is confusing the movie with "dispassionate analysis," such as your endless ungrounded assertions about the evils of single-payer health care. I started this thread with a pointer to a blog about the audience reaction to the movie, in Dallas. I still think it's an interesting story.

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Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7916 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 10:01 PM
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I think he jump starts an important dialogue [...] He is a provacateur, and there is a role for such in any society. They can be catalysts.

I agree completely with the these statements. Health care is a very important issue in need of very serious debate. It's too bad that our society is often too immature to be catalyzed by any but the most clownish, disingenuous provocateurs. But better that than no dialogue at all.

I do plan to see Sicko. Moore's movies, strident and one-sided as they are, still make some good points amidst all the noise, and given the importance of the subject matter, I hold out hope that he may exceed my expectations with this film. The Time Out review of the film mentioned that he doesn't appear on screen until midway through, so that's an improvement already. :-)

sydsydsyd

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Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7917 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 10:12 PM
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P.S. The aforementioned film review in Time Out is well worth reading. Here's a sample:

It takes a leap of faith to think that Michael Moore, celebrity man of the people and media muckraker, can maintain a cult of personality based on aggressive ordinariness. But it's also obvious that for all of the manufactured Moore-isms he relies on (the slovenly stubble and baseball cap, the faux-naive narration, an incredulity that utopia isn't just a MoveOn.org e-mail away), his outrage is genuine. That fury at the blasé attitudes of bureaucrats profiting from common people greased his solidarity with the fed-up suburbanites and small-town occupants in Bowling for Columbine (2002) and Fahrenheit 9/11 (2004), and it's exactly what makes his new work, Sicko, equally vital. If Moore is using his aw-shucks attitude to articulate a collective anger with such far-reaching effectiveness, tolerating his shtick is the least we can do.

and here's the link:

http://www.timeout.com/film/reviews/84203/sicko.html

sydsydsyd

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Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7918 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 10:23 PM
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And if your cardiologist sent the insurer a bill for $118

By the way, what service would a cardiologist in America render that would cost as little as $118? Is that the fee for a band-aid?

sydsydsyd

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7919 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 10:40 PM
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>> By the way, what service would a cardiologist in America render that would cost as little as $118? Is that the fee for a band-aid? <<

Sounds about right for a three-minute follow-up appointment.

"Mr. Smith, how are you feeling?"

"Fine."

"And have you had any unusual reactions to the medication?"

"No."

"Good. Here's a refill for your prescription. See you in three months."

That sounds like about $118. Here in a rural area that costs our insurance $90 with my wife's neurologist.

#29

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7920 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 11:05 PM
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And if your cardiologist sent the insurer a bill for $118

By the way, what service would a cardiologist in America render that would cost as little as $118? Is that the fee for a band-aid?

sydsydsyd

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's the fee they charge you for just saying "hello" to them as they pass you in the hallway.

Art

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7921 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 11:29 PM
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markr33 writes,

<<The question I ask is why this service provided to Joe Schlub with no insurance costs $325 while the same service provided to me costs $118.67.>>

Hmmm ... maybe because the insurance company always sends that $118 check for each patient, while only one out of three Joe Schlub's actually pay their bill? In the end, the doctor gets about $118 per visit on average.

</snip>


Seems like universal health care would solve that problem and the doctor would be paid for every visit.

intercst





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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 11:37 PM
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ebost writes,

In my office, a person who pays cash gets a discount and is asked to pay me approximately what insurance would pay me. Those who bother to pay anything at all usually pay less than any insurer would pay for the same treatment. So your cardiologist has to cover the cost of seeing other patients at a discount. And if your cardiologist sent the insurer a bill for $118, she would likely get $100 or so "adjusted" off, leaving her with $18, an amount she would probably not find reasonable.


Does that put your office in any danger with the insurance companies?

I thought that PPO and HMO discounts work off of a doctor's "usual fee". So if you have a usual fee of $300 and charged people without coverage only $118, the insurer might come back at you and say that the "usual fee" was $118 and not $300.

intercst



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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7923 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/8/2007 11:54 PM
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In my office, a person who pays cash gets a discount and is asked to pay me approximately what insurance would pay me. Those who bother to pay anything at all usually pay less than any insurer would pay for the same treatment. So your cardiologist has to cover the cost of seeing other patients at a discount. And if your cardiologist sent the insurer a bill for $118, she would likely get $100 or so "adjusted" off, leaving her with $18, an amount she would probably not find reasonable.

You were sounding reasonable until you got to the $18, and now I don't know if I should believe anything you say. I actually have one provider who bills only what the negotiated rate is, and he gets paid in full by the insurance. I don't know a lot about the process, but I do know they don't make up the adjustment on the spot when the claim comes in.

Remember, we're talking about a specialist seeing people by appointment only, not some ER nightmare. I've seen more than one provider with a sign that says you pay before receiving treatment if you don't have insurance, and about half require insurance co-pays at the time of service.

Phil

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7929 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:47 AM
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By the way, what service would a cardiologist in America render that would cost as little as $118?

Weight, two BP readings and EKG, all administered by the doctor. Followed by medication adjustment, writing order for blood work and lifestyle lecture. Approximately 20 minutes in DC's West End.

Phil

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Author: Commodore64 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7932 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 7:17 AM
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"Please! OTHER PEOPLE's money? I am paying for your idiotic war in Iraq. I was against it from the get go but I am forced to pay for it. Is it unfair? You are damn right. But I deal with it. It is about time you people also had to pay for something you disapprove of. Deal with it!"

I'm a libertarian, and no fan of government spending.

However, I have to admit, if is going to be spent, I'd rather see it spent on healthcare for US citizens than pissed away on a stupid war in Iraq...

jb


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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7941 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:31 AM
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There's something fundamentally wrong with a health care system that encourages the uninsured to forego preventive medicine then treat hospital ER's as their primary care providers.


Uninsured? I *have* insurance and still go that route. Rock on, Aetna.

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7943 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:34 AM
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Because I had to sort out some billings I happen to have in front of me a stack of papers dealing with my cardiologist. The charge for the visit is $325.00, the BCBS "negotiated" adjustment is $206.33, leaving her getting paid $118.67 for the visit. I have to assume that she finds this payment reasonable or she wouldn't agree to be a Preferred Provider. The question I ask is why this service provided to Joe Schlub with no insurance costs $325 while the same service provided to me costs $118.67.

The insurance co. has a pre-set fee schedule agreement with the doctor. The doctor knows how much they will get reimbursed for a particular procedure before they perform it. What they decide to charge for it above and beyond that is between you and the doctor, as is the decision of the doctor to go after you for the balance or write it off.

6

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7945 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:41 AM
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>> The insurance co. has a pre-set fee schedule agreement with the doctor. The doctor knows how much they will get reimbursed for a particular procedure before they perform it. What they decide to charge for it above and beyond that is between you and the doctor, as is the decision of the doctor to go after you for the balance or write it off. <<

If the provider is "in network" with the insurer, though, that extra amount (above and beyond what insurance pays) won't be charged.

When my wife had kidney stones four years ago, one of the places an in-network hospital sent her was to an out-of-network imaging center. (Until that time, I had Kaiser in California all my life so I wasn't used to the "in network" and "out of network" stuff as long as we went to Kaiser facilities.)

A couple months later, we got a bill from this imaging center for the portion above what BCBS paid. BCBS paid about $700 according to the bill; our portion was about $3,100.

We chose to "temporarily" ignore the bill and see if they would be persistent. We never heard from them again, so presumably they just wrote it off and "hoped" we'd pay.

#29

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7946 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:43 AM
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See, this is exactly my point. You tune him out (and insult those who don't, nice work) and yet you seem to act eminently qualified to pass judgment on him and the things he says.

I spent a whole summer listening to Rush every day, while driving a delivery truck that had only AM radio. He is disgusting and evil and nothing but lies and hate ever come out of his mouth.

Michael Moore may or may not be 100% accurate in his films...I have only seen Roger & Me, and I've heard a lot of people call him a liar but not once have I seen anyone present a point of fact that was incorrect in one of his movies...but he is compassionate and, as opposed to Rush, is trying to make things better by his efforts, not worse.

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7948 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:53 AM
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However, I have to admit, if is going to be spent, I'd rather see it spent on healthcare for US citizens than pissed away on a stupid war in Iraq...

That, exactly, is what now distinguishes liberals from conservatives. There are no real conservatives or liberals any more...Republicans support restrictive social laws and massive defecit spending. Democrats support restrictive social laws and massive defecit spending. The only difference is what behaviors people think are criminal and what they prefer to overspend on.

6

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Author: GusSmed Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7949 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:57 AM
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Democrats support restrictive social laws and massive defecit spending.

Who are the Democrats after now? I remember that Lieberman didn't want us to play video games. Yeah, yeah, he's mostly a Republican, but he's still technically a Democrat. So who else? I haven't been keeping track.

- Gus

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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 12:00 PM
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If the provider is "in network" with the insurer, though, that extra amount (above and beyond what insurance pays) won't be charged.

As far as I know, being "in network" just means that the provider will get more from the insurer. It's still up to the doctor how much to charge above and beyond that, and how hard to go after that money.

I just started a new job where I am learning exactly how billing is done for medicine. It's crazy.

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7951 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 12:01 PM
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Who are the Democrats after now? I remember that Lieberman didn't want us to play video games. Yeah, yeah, he's mostly a Republican, but he's still technically a Democrat. So who else? I haven't been keeping track.

Racists, homophobes, rednecks...

6

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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 12:11 PM
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Racists, homophobes, rednecks...

I didn't understand that answer. Have the Democrats been advancing legislation either advancing those causes, or saying it was illegal to be a racist, homophobe, or redneck? Or something else entirely?

- Gus

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Author: DorothyM Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7954 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 12:20 PM
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Because I had to sort out some billings I happen to have in front of me a stack of papers dealing with my cardiologist. The charge for the visit is $325.00, the BCBS "negotiated" adjustment is $206.33, leaving her getting paid $118.67 for the visit. I have to assume that she finds this payment reasonable or she wouldn't agree to be a Preferred Provider. The question I ask is why this service provided to Joe Schlub with no insurance costs $325 while the same service provided to me costs $118.67.
--------------
The insurance co. has a pre-set fee schedule agreement with the doctor. The doctor knows how much they will get reimbursed for a particular procedure before they perform it. What they decide to charge for it above and beyond that is between you and the doctor, as is the decision of the doctor to go after you for the balance or write it off.


In an HMO the doctor has to accept the insurance company's payment (+copay) -- Once the doctor gets his pittance from the insurance company and my $20, he cannot bill me for any unpaid part of the OV charge.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7955 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 12:31 PM
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<<Michael Moore may or may not be 100% accurate in his films...I have only seen Roger & Me, and I've heard a lot of people call him a liar but not once have I seen anyone present a point of fact that was incorrect in one of his movies...but he is compassionate and, as opposed to Rush, is trying to make things better by his efforts, not worse.

6
>>



You just like your own propaganda more than that of people you don't agree with. Both Limbaugh and Moore are best characterized as people who are creating propaganda to support their point of view and values.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7956 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:04 PM
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The insurance co. has a pre-set fee schedule agreement with the doctor. The doctor knows how much they will get reimbursed for a particular procedure before they perform it. What they decide to charge for it above and beyond that is between you and the doctor, as is the decision of the doctor to go after you for the balance or write it off.

I can't speak to other plans, but this is expressly forbidden in their agreement with Federal Employees/Retirees BCBS. They cannot seek payment beyond the negotiated amount. I know from experience with my parents that providers who accept Medicare assignment cannot pursue additional payment.

Phil

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Author: intercst Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7960 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:24 PM
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sofaking6 writes,

<<Who are the Democrats after now? I remember that Lieberman didn't want us to play video games. Yeah, yeah, he's mostly a Republican, but he's still technically a Democrat. So who else? I haven't been keeping track.>>

Racists, homophobes, rednecks...


That's an excellent point. Over the past 30 years, the Republicans have shown a real talent for marshalling the votes of racists and homophobes.

intercst


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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7961 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:24 PM
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Have the Democrats been advancing legislation either advancing those causes, or saying it was illegal to be a racist, homophobe, or redneck?

Hate crime legislation comes to mind. It doesn't make me very popular with my GLBT cohorts, but the enhanced punishment aspect of these laws punishes thoughts, and that's a slippery slope I'd just as soon not slide down.

Phil

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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7962 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:25 PM
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Seems like universal health care would solve that problem and the doctor would be paid for every visit. - intercst

The reason I'm for socialized medicine or universal healthcare is always in the back of my mind I'm thinking "there go I but for the Grace of God." I know a large portion of where I am today is just because of dumb luck.

And I also know that it wouldn't take much for us to lose everything we've worked for all our lives. Bonnie could get sick and lose her job and health insurance and that would be it for us as far as cheap health care. We'd both be uninsurable and with the skyrocketing cost of health care one week in the hospital would be about enough to break us.

We have fairly good health insurance now (United - through Bonnie's work) but it's entirely dependent on her continuing working. Life is neither kind nor fair and in the end it's so easy for everything to end up going to the lawyers and doctors.

"there but for the grace of God, go I."

Art


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Author: GusSmed Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7964 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:36 PM
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It doesn't make me very popular with my GLBT cohorts, but the enhanced punishment aspect of these laws punishes thoughts, and that's a slippery slope I'd just as soon not slide down.

Aren't we already there? Aren't manslaughter, premeditated murder, and unpremeditated murder different crimes?

While I agree that the principle of hate crimes legislation can be offputting, I saw the point once I realized that there's a purpose to identifying crimes that are committed against a whole class of people, not just a single victim. Killing a new neighbor because he's black discourages other black people from moving into the neighborhood, to take a random example.

Now, I'm not sure of the exact wording of the legislation in question. It's quite possible I might object to the specific wording. But I'm no longer against it in general.

- Gus

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7965 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:39 PM
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Hate crime legislation comes to mind. It doesn't make me very popular with my GLBT cohorts, but the enhanced punishment aspect of these laws punishes thoughts, and that's a slippery slope I'd just as soon not slide down.


the law has been differentially punishing 'thought' for 500 yrs.

*i* don't see enough difference with 'hate crime' to worry about it


=
...... but it is a good example of Democrats being socially restrictive

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7967 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:48 PM
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Aren't we already there? Aren't manslaughter, premeditated murder, and unpremeditated murder different crimes?

greeked


While I agree that the principle of hate crimes legislation can be offputting, I saw the point once I realized that there's a purpose to identifying crimes that are committed against a whole class of people, not just a single victim. Killing a new neighbor because he's black discourages other black people from moving into the neighborhood, to take a random example.


exactly ... a crime whose intent is to terrorize a group (rather than/in addition to hurting the victim or enriching the perp) 'ought' be treated differently..


Now, I'm not sure of the exact wording of the legislation in question. It's quite possible I might object to the specific wording. But I'm no longer against it in general.


yup


..another reason for HCL is that ,historically, such crimes were treated differently --they were ignored. "Just boys being boys ..tying their classmate to a fence, Ha ha!!"



=

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7969 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:50 PM
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<<And I also know that it wouldn't take much for us to lose everything we've worked for all our lives. Bonnie could get sick and lose her job and health insurance and that would be it for us as far as cheap health care. We'd both be uninsurable and with the skyrocketing cost of health care one week in the hospital would be about enough to break us.
>>


Does COBRA coverage apply to public employees?

Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7971 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 1:59 PM
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Who are the Democrats after now? I remember that Lieberman didn't want us to play video games. Yeah, yeah, he's mostly a Republican, but he's still technically a Democrat.


No, he's not.

AM

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7972 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 2:00 PM
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>> Does COBRA coverage apply to public employees?

Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled.
<<

Even so, public employee health plans tend to be Cadillacs, and a lot of people don't want to have to pay for a Cadillac plan (often $1000 a month or more) through COBRA until they turn 65.

#29

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Author: ziggy29 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7973 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 2:04 PM
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>> >> Who are the Democrats after now? I remember that Lieberman didn't want us to play video games. Yeah, yeah, he's mostly a Republican, but he's still technically a Democrat. << <<

>> No, he's not. <<

If you'd rather see him as a Republican, then maybe the Republicans should take back the Majority Leader position and take back all the committee chairs, because considering Lieberman a Republican would do that to the balance of power in the Senate.

You should be thrilled that he still chooses to caucus with the Democrats and considers himself one.

#29

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Author: GusSmed Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7974 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 2:06 PM
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No, he's not.

I said "technically." Whatever he is in spirit, he rejoined the Democratic party after winning the election as an independent.

- Gus

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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 2:09 PM
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SeattlePioneer writes,

<<And I also know that it wouldn't take much for us to lose everything we've worked for all our lives. Bonnie could get sick and lose her job and health insurance and that would be it for us as far as cheap health care. We'd both be uninsurable and with the skyrocketing cost of health care one week in the hospital would be about enough to break us.
>>

Does COBRA coverage apply to public employees?

Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled.


---------

Not true.

Corporations and insurers paid millions of dollars to Republican Senators and Congressmen to kill that proposal. COBRA benefits are limited to 18 months of coverage for "healthy" people and 36 months for the disabled -- after that the disabled are expected to pull-themselves-up-by-their-bootstraps and get coverage from a private insurer. In about 1/3 of the states, there is no limit on the premiums that an insurer can charge to a person with an expensive pre-existing condition after his or her COBRA benefits expire.

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_cobra.html

Can individuals qualify for longer periods of COBRA continuation coverage?

Yes, disability can extend the 18 month period of continuation coverage for a qualifying event that is a termination of employment or reduction of hours. To qualify for additional months of COBRA continuation coverage, the qualified beneficiary must:

Have a ruling from the Social Security Administration that he or she became disabled within the first 60 days of COBRA continuation coverage

Send the plan a copy of the Social Security ruling letter within 60 days of receipt, but prior to expiration of the 18-month period of coverage

If these requirements are met, the entire family qualifies for an additional 11 months of COBRA continuation coverage. Plans can charge 150% of the premium cost for the extended period of coverage.

How long does COBRA coverage last?
COBRA establishes required periods of coverage for continuation health benefits. A plan, however, may provide longer periods of coverage beyond those required by COBRA. COBRA beneficiaries generally are eligible for group coverage during a maximum of 18 months for qualifying events due to employment termination or reduction of hours of work. Certain qualifying events, or a second qualifying event during the initial period of coverage, may permit a beneficiary to receive a maximum of 36 months of coverage.

</snip>


intercst






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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 2:22 PM
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Have a ruling from the Social Security Administration that he or she became disabled within the first 60 days of COBRA continuation coverage

Send the plan a copy of the Social Security ruling letter within 60 days of receipt, but prior to expiration of the 18-month period of coverage

If these requirements are met, the entire family qualifies for an additional 11 months of COBRA continuation coverage. Plans can charge 150% of the premium cost for the extended period of coverage.



interesting .....

reminds me of another thing irks me about the system. You just about need to be a lawyer to understand all the bleeding rules ..not to mention finding the rules.

all this while you're getting older and might be sick.


=b

more bloody anecdotes -- maybe it's changed, but several years ago i had to deal with SSA and 'disability' ...at that time SSA would only 'rule' on permanent-disability , and only after a year. So if you got temporary disability around the end of your first 18mo COBRA --you B SOL

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7978 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 3:11 PM
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<<>> Does COBRA coverage apply to public employees?

Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled. <<

Even so, public employee health plans tend to be Cadillacs, and a lot of people don't want to have to pay for a Cadillac plan (often $1000 a month or more) through COBRA until they turn 65.

#29
>>



Heh, heh! Pretty funny ---- public employees who don't mind the taxpayers paying for their health care, but wouldn't want to do that themselves.


COBRA tends to be a good deal for those over age 45 ---since you get charged based on an employers entire labor force, not for rates that might be applicable to those who are 45, 50 or 60 years of age or more. It's young people that find COBRA no bargain, since their risk of needing expensive healthcare is a lot lower, but this isn't reflected in COBRA costs.

But my purpose was to point out to Art that he and his wife might still be able to keep their health insurance even if Art's wife were to become disabled.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7979 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 3:15 PM
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intercst replies:

<<Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled.

---------

Not true.

Corporations and insurers paid millions of dollars to Republican Senators and Congressmen to kill that proposal. COBRA benefits are limited to 18 months of coverage for "healthy" people and 36 months for the disabled -- after that the disabled are expected to pull-themselves-up-by-their-bootstraps and get coverage from a private insurer. In about 1/3 of the states, there is no limit on the premiums that an insurer can charge to a person with an expensive pre-existing condition after his or her COBRA benefits expire.
>>



Thanks for correcting my miunderstanding on this issue.




Seattle Pioneer

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7980 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 3:22 PM
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Pet Horse: Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled.

---------
intercst:
Not true.


Why am I not surprised? The MUS patrol works overtime.

cliff


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Author: ariechert Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7981 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 4:17 PM
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But my purpose was to point out to Art that he and his wife might still be able to keep their health insurance even if Art's wife were to become disabled. - Seattle Pioneer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We wouldn't be able to afford it. We'd both have to try and get on Social Security disability. There'd be no other alternative. We couldn't generate enough income to pay the premiums.

Art


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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7984 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 4:50 PM
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I didn't understand that answer. Have the Democrats been advancing legislation either advancing those causes, or saying it was illegal to be a racist, homophobe, or redneck? Or something else entirely?

Sorry, post-from-work syndrome: I was referring to hate crimes.

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7985 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 4:54 PM
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You just like your own propaganda more than that of people you don't agree with. Both Limbaugh and Moore are best characterized as people who are creating propaganda to support their point of view and values.

Like I said, show me the proof that Moore is lying. You can't call him a propagandist if you don't know 1) what he's saying and 2) if it's true or not. I know exactly what Rush says, and I know that he lies not only about what's true out in the world, but he lies on a minute-by-minute basis about what he's just said. Only the most thoughtless people can believe what he says, because he constantly contradicts himself and denies saying things he just said in the same show. Is Moore the same? Why should I accept your say-so on that?

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7986 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 5:06 PM
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I can't speak to other plans, but this is expressly forbidden in their agreement with Federal Employees/Retirees BCBS. They cannot seek payment beyond the negotiated amount. I know from experience with my parents that providers who accept Medicare assignment cannot pursue additional payment.

I have to say that's expressly not true...For example, a patient may have private insurance along with Medicare...the doctor will bill Medicare (primary payor) first, then the private insurer (secondary payor), then the patient (tertiary payor). I am looking right now at payments received just like that.

It may be the case that if an HMO is the primary payor, the provider cannot push an additional amount beyond the copay to a patient though...is there someplace I can look and see this law?

6


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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7987 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 5:09 PM
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Hate crime legislation comes to mind. It doesn't make me very popular with my GLBT cohorts, but the enhanced punishment aspect of these laws punishes thoughts, and that's a slippery slope I'd just as soon not slide down.

I bet it doesn't...it's sadly been very difficult to have dialog on this with the GBLT community...it's such an emotional issue.

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7988 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 5:11 PM
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exactly ... a crime whose intent is to terrorize a group (rather than/in addition to hurting the victim or enriching the perp) 'ought' be treated differently..

Don't we call those Crimes Against Humanity?

And do you believe that every time someone commits a crime out of bigotry, their express intent is to terrorize a group of people?

6

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7989 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 5:12 PM
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Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled.

So, how are they going to pay for the COBRA coverage if they can't work?

6

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Author: FCorelli Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7990 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 5:15 PM
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So, how are they going to pay for the COBRA coverage if they can't work?

6


Shsh! Someone will notice the big white elephant in the room

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7992 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 5:52 PM
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exactly ... a crime whose intent is to terrorize a group (rather than/in addition to hurting the victim or enriching the perp) 'ought' be treated differently..

Don't we call those Crimes Against Humanity?


sometimes.

sometimes we call it 'boys being boys'



And do you believe that every time someone commits a crime out of bigotry, their express intent is to terrorize a group of people?


every time ..probably not.

often enough i think it's worth having the law on the books.


=

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7993 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 5:53 PM
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For example, a patient may have private insurance along with Medicare...the doctor will bill Medicare (primary payor) first, then the private insurer (secondary payor), then the patient (tertiary payor). I am looking right now at payments received just like that.

I didn't express this clearly enough. This is exactly the scenario that I experienced with my parents. Since Medicare Part B pays only 80% of the Medicare approved amount, there can be other payments. My point was that the total payments can't exceed the Medicare allowance.

It may be the case that if an HMO is the primary payor, the provider cannot push an additional amount beyond the copay to a patient though...is there someplace I can look and see this law?

I can't speak to HMO's; my plan is a PPO. I don't know that there is a law. I've always assumed it's part of the contractual arrangement. I do know there's verbiage printed on every Statement of Benefits I get, as well as in the plan brochure (I think), that the provider can't collect more than the negotiated amount.

You can access all FEHB plan brochures at http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/index.asp.

Phil

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7994 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:02 PM
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You just about need to be a lawyer to understand all the bleeding rules ..not to mention finding the rules.

all this while you're getting older and might be sick.


I'm brighter than most and worked with numbers my entire career. Yet when I took over paying my parents' bills, I felt like a blithering idiot when trying to figure out the medical bills. Every provider seems to use a different system, and I finally had to build a spreadsheet to sort it out and figure out what, if anything they owed.

If I had this much trouble, what do the old and infirm do?

Phil

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Author: TMFPMarti Big funky green star, 20000 posts Home Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7995 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:06 PM
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We'd both have to try and get on Social Security disability. There'd be no other alternative.

I had a couple of friends who went through this, and even after SSA signs off, IIRC there's a waiting period before you're eligible for Medicare. I've never been able to figure out what's so magic about that period or what the disabled person is supposed to do in the meantime, other than run up bills that will never be paid.

Phil

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7996 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:09 PM
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I'm brighter than most and worked with numbers my entire career. Yet when I took over paying my parents' bills, I felt like a blithering idiot when trying to figure out the medical bills. Every provider seems to use a different system, and I finally had to build a spreadsheet to sort it out and figure out what, if anything they owed.

If I had this much trouble, what do the old and infirm do?


well ..*i* spent hours and hours and hours trying to figure out Medicare-D, then hours and hours trying to figure out Supplements

so far so good.


-j
...much worse was trying to deal with private disability Ins. while recovering from major surgery

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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7997 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:29 PM
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6 & whomever:

Would anyone care to come to Traverse City & take in Michaels film extravaganza?

I live in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park & would be happy to house any & all. Lake Michigan is rather a fine thing to ooze into on 90 degree days & then post michaels films, perhaps a fire & ale to coast into sleeping under the stars?

Even Seattle & T are welcome.

Love, Joseph who is an equal opportunity instigator of dialogue around the campfire. Not the retire early campfire of course.

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7998 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:35 PM
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Would anyone care to come to Traverse City & take in Michaels film extravaganza?

I live in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park & would be happy to house any & all. Lake Michigan is rather a fine thing to ooze into on 90 degree days & then post michaels films, perhaps a fire & ale to coast into sleeping under the stars?


Well that is a most delicious invitation...I am busy learning the ins and outs of medical billing, finance and chemotherapy courses...

6

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 7999 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:37 PM
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I live in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park &


you live in a National Park? i thought only Bears and rangers lived in NPs


-b
.....maybe next year, thanks. Michigan is on my list of places i want to see someday

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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:49 PM
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I've never been able to figure out what's so magic about that period or what the disabled person is supposed to do in the meantime, other than run up bills that will never be paid. - Phil
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Die. That's what your supposed to do. It just makes everything much less complicated.

Art


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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 6:52 PM
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Would anyone care to come to Traverse City & take in Michaels film extravaganza?

I live in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park & would be happy to house any & all. Lake Michigan is rather a fine thing to ooze into on 90 degree days & then post michaels films, perhaps a fire & ale to coast into sleeping under the stars? - joeseph

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My brother is a commercial beekeeper and keeps bees in Northern Michigan in the summer. He actually owns property in Charlevoix. He bugs me all the time about coming up there and spending some time fishing. It says it's incredibly beautiful. It's a LONG way from Middle Tennessee though.

Art


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8006 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 7:50 PM
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I'm surprised that a university faculty employment policy doesn't include disability insurance?



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8007 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 8:00 PM
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<<You just like your own propaganda more than that of people you don't agree with. Both Limbaugh and Moore are best characterized as people who are creating propaganda to support their point of view and values.

Like I said, show me the proof that Moore is lying.
>>



You can certainly be a propagandist whether you lie or not. Michael Moore has engaged in staging some of his "spontaneous" interviews, and he clearly does a hatchet job on circumstances to drmatize his point of view. I think he's clearly a propagandist, and a skilled one.


Limbaugh does much the same kind of thing, dramatizing his issues to make a point.


Whether Michael Moore and Limbaugh "lie," I leave to others. My point is that they are both fairly characterized as propagandists. Nothing wrong with being a propagandist, the world and politics in particular no doubt needs them.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: sydsydsyd Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8012 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 9:11 PM
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Whether Michael Moore and Limbaugh "lie," I leave to others.

If you include "lying by omission," they both certainly do.

sydsydsyd

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Author: LtUhura Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8016 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:05 PM
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maybe next year, thanks. Michigan is on my list of places i want to see someday

Michigan is a cool place. I have relatives in Grosse Pointe (highbrow) and Battle Creek (lowbrow). The Kellogg's tour by itself is an experience.

Uhura

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8018 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:11 PM
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Would anyone care to come to Traverse City & take in Michaels film extravaganza?

I wanna see the Grand Hotel on Mackinac Island.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackinaw_Island
My wife and I fell in love watching "Somewhere in Time", and the Rachmaninoff is "Our Song". Are you close to there?

cliff

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8020 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/9/2007 11:35 PM
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My wife and I fell in love watching "Somewhere in Time", and the Rachmaninoff is "Our Song". Are you close to there?



cool.

i fell in love with JaneSeymour watching that movie.


your plan much more sensible.


(> b

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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8034 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 9:28 AM
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Cliff:

The straits of Mackinaw are due north about 2 1/2 hrs by auto.

Here is where I am.

http://www.nps.gov/slbe/photosmultimedia/photogallery.htm

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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 10:16 AM
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My wife and I fell in love watching "Somewhere in Time", and the Rachmaninoff is "Our Song". Are you close to there?



cool.

i fell in love with JaneSeymour watching that movie.


your plan much more sensible.


(> b



I was already in love with Rachmaninoff before watching the movie.
So there. :Þ~~~

Rocky III for me though.... although Rhapsody on a Theme is such a close second...

But wondering how could Cliff and Mrs. 666 fall in love while watching a movie -- which implies that their attention was anywhere except on each other. I'm glad they did, though. Without her steadying influence, no telling how wild Cliff would be running. ;o)

AM
....Would also love to see the "Grand Hotel"...


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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8043 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 11:19 AM
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The straits of Mackinaw are due north about 2 1/2 hrs by auto.

Here is where I am.

http://www.nps.gov/slbe/photosmultimedia/photogallery.htm

Beautiful country, Joseph.

cliff

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Author: cliff666 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8044 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 11:23 AM
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AM: I was already in love with Rachmaninoff before watching the movie.
So there. :Þ~~~


Now, there you go again, twisting my words into what I did not say. I said we fell in love - not with Rocky, but with each other. Already loved Rocky.

OK, so I zaggerate. We were already on pretty good terms.

cliff

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8047 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 2:20 PM
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But wondering how could Cliff and Mrs. 666 fall in love while watching a movie -- which implies that their attention was anywhere except on each other. I'm glad they did, though. Without her steadying influence, no telling how wild Cliff would be running. ;o)



gaah ..really !

just trying to imagine Cliiff with no adult supervision ... skeery <G>



-
..... also liked that Rocky before the movie .... one of 4 melodies that seem to just Jump out and grab you by the knee

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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 5:39 PM
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Pet Horse: "Anyway, people who are covered by COBRA can get permanent COBRA coverage if they are disabled."

intercst: "Not true."

Cliff: "Why am I not surprised? The MUS patrol works overtime."

Actual quote from Pet Horse: "The truth is VERY malleable".



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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 8:09 PM
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Joseph,

That sounds wonderful! Its been ages since I've been to that part of Michigan. Unfortunately, I need more time to plan these trips. (I have a 15 year-old to ferry to various activities this summer.)

Mom

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Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/10/2007 8:20 PM
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joseph714 writes,

Would anyone care to come to Traverse City & take in Michaels film extravaganza?

I live in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park & would be happy to house any & all. Lake Michigan is rather a fine thing to ooze into on 90 degree days & then post michaels films, perhaps a fire & ale to coast into sleeping under the stars?

Even Seattle & T are welcome.

Love, Joseph who is an equal opportunity instigator of dialogue around the campfire. Not the retire early campfire of course.



How do you get to live in a National Park? Do you have a house there, or are you in a RV?

intercst


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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8060 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/11/2007 9:07 AM
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Mom:

I hope the ferrying is a fine thing for you & 15 yr. old.

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Author: joseph714 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 8061 of 56843
Subject: Re: Dallas sees Sicko Date: 7/11/2007 9:13 AM
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How do you get to live in a National Park? Do you have a house there, or are you in a RV?

intercst
--------------

Contiguous with the park actually. I long ago bought 71 acres on the boundary at the end of a road thinking that would do it. It did.

Empire is literally surrounded on 3 sides by the park, while the west side is Lake Michigan.

There are though, some who do still live within the boundaries since the initial land grab the Government did, allowed for a grandfathering of homes for the length of current owners life.

Also the park has preserved & restored many of the early settlers farms.

Many took the money & ran.

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