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The silly thing is only 4 years old, but we've already replaced the computer and the diverter this year.

The real problem is the time it takes to get the error code(s). To put it into test/diagnostic mode one has to press several buttons in the appropriate sequence and wait through 22 minutes of exercising the various pieces and parts. Then it reports the error codes by blinking an LED multiple times. You get three chances to count the number of blinks, for two digit codes. The whole process takes about a half hour. (We do this ourselves, so we don't pay the repair guy to sit on the floor and count the blinks.)

This time, it didn't blink any error codes! But it still leaves about an inch of water in the bottom.

The repair guy replaced the switches (around $90 for the part), which didn't fix the problem. He says the next most likely thing to try is replacing the computer ($200+) - again!

According to Consumer Reports, after 4 years one should seriously think about replacing a broken dishwasher. So, we explored how soon we could get a new D/W from a local place that's gone mostly to internet ordering. They still has a showroom so we could eyeball the various models. Delivery and installation would cost an extra $99. Then he explained that it takes 7-10 business days to get the D/W in. Given the holidays, it could take longer. <We're having 10 people over for Christmas dinner.> That's a no go.

This evening we went to Sears. They said they could get the model we wanted in 2-3 days, so MDH was about ready to hand over the credit card when the salesman said there'd be a $250 charge for delivery and installation! The guy explained that we needed to have a Master Plumber involved to pull a permit. MDH said, "No way." We walked out of the store.

Tomorrow we'll look at Lowe's. The website claims to have the model we want in stock. He's seriously considering taking the thing home with us if it fits in the Jetta wagon and having #1 son help him install the thing himself.

At least it didn't die on Christmas Eve!

PM
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I bought the dishwasher in my Dallas house from Lowe's. It was a great experience--I had them install it, they were out the next day to deliver and install it, right on time. They guy was very nice and took the time to show me how to run the dishwasher, all its different features, etc.

I will never, EVER buy another appliance from Sears. Ever. I didn't learn my lesson in Texas when I had an issue with my fridge. I bought my appliances from Sears online, thinking it would be easier since I hadn't moved yet. My mom took delivery in the house here. They didn't hook up the washer and dryer. They didn't come when they said they would, kept her waiting forever for the delivery, and then it was only a partial delivery, so she had to come back over and wait again several days later for them to the deliver the stove. THEN they said I hadn't purchased installation of the stove, which constitutes hooking up the gas (and costs another $125....). I called Sears and the first 2 customer reps didn't know what the heck I was talking about, the third finally got it figured out. I will say that in that case, the guys actually came early, and the hook up took all of about 5 minutes.

I detest Sears.
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What make of DW is your dead 4-year-old?

All my appliances were installed in 1987 (all Whirlpool brand). From time to time, I consider updating them, but after reading horror stories like yours (and comments in Consumer Reports that new appliances are poorer quality than old and only last 8-10 years), I'm keeping them.

Wendy
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<We're having 10 people over for Christmas dinner.> That's a no go.

This maybe heresy, but have you considered using disposable dishes for Christmas, and not worrying about the dishwasher before Christmas?

(SIL used disposable plates and flatware for Thanksgiving. Noone made a comment. Unless you are willing and able to host future events, you don't harass the person hosting a holiday event.)
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vkg:

This may be heresy, but have you considered using disposable dishes for Christmas?

At the spl's, this isn't heresy. It's LAW, both at Christmas and at Thanksgiving. It's been this way for the last 5 years, and when we are the hosts (which is usually), the tradition of informality will continue. We have even been "heretical" enough to tear off strong paper towels and fold them into triangles for napkins.

Our informality law arose out of an extremely unfortunate incident. We have a beautiful large set of Limoge china which I inherited from my mother who, in turn, had inherited it from her mother. In 2007, we decided to "put on the dog" and used it for Thanksgiving. It was the first time we ever used it. My DB and DS were oohing and aahing as were other guests. But I think everybody felt some pressure to be super-careful, too. After dinner, my sister carried the large serving platter for the turkey to the kitchen and dropped it on our tiled kitchen floor. Shards of china and turkey were all over the place. She dissolved into tears and wasn't right the rest of the day. It threw a pall over what should have been a joyous festive get-together.

Unless you are willing and able to host future events, you don't harass the person hosting a holiday event.

Absolutely. You've escaped cleaning your house, buying food, setting the table, worrying about things with different cooking times being done in sync, etc. etc.
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We have a beautiful large set of Limoge china which I inherited from my mother who, in turn, had inherited it from her mother. In 2007, we decided to "put on the dog" and used it for Thanksgiving. It was the first time we ever used it.

Have you used it since?
If not, then what is the point?


I have what is left of my grandmother's china and my parents' crystal.
Both get used at least once a week.
Not a full set remains, and we are not careless, but crystal and china are fragile and a small "bump" that might not even make corelle vibrate will break china/crystal - and, in the end, they are just *THINGS*

I have also the silver that belonged to a great aunt.
That is our "everyday" silverware. We don't have stainless.
A few pieces had an unfortunate bleach accident, and have some black spots, which is a shame.
But if we just had it sitting in a drawer, or stored away, waiting for a special occasion, then we might as well NOT have them it all.
(because we never have a bunch of people over)


peace & replacements
t
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Tomorrow we'll look at Lowe's. The website claims to have the model we want in stock. He's seriously considering taking the thing home with us if it fits in the Jetta wagon and having #1 son help him install the thing himself.

I have bought several appliances from Lowes and I am happy with their service.

On a separate note, this would be a good time for replace the water line to the dishwasher. I suggest a braided steel one.

PSU
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The guy explained that we needed to have a Master Plumber involved to pull a permit.

What? What part of connecting a dishwasher to preexisting water supply and sanitary sewer systems would require a permit? As far as I know the final connection of appliances is outside the scope of any plumbing code used in the USA.

So did that particular unit have some unique connection requirements that would require reworking the permanent plumbing systems?

xtn
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Yeah -even if it's fragile and heirloom - it gets used. The silver gets used everyday. The china once a week (maybe once every two weeks). Accidents happen (damn cat). Replacements are there. Fine china menders exist (I know to my chagrin/gratefulness). We honor the family members who have gone before us by using what they left us instead of storing it away and rarely thinking about it.
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What? What part of connecting a dishwasher to preexisting water supply and sanitary sewer systems would require a permit? As far as I know the final connection of appliances is outside the scope of any plumbing code used in the USA.

Unfortunately, it sounds plausible. Cities are becoming more aggressive about controlling everything.

We are required to have permits to replace a hot water heater. It doesn't require a "Master Plumber" to pull the permit. It did require putting the hot water heater on a stand (to avoid small explosions).

Neighbors were replacing kitchen cabinets with no structural changes, while we were having major remodeling done. The inspector noticed the contractor's truck, and shut it down because they didn't have permits.
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Yeah -even if it's fragile and heirloom - it gets used.

Some heirloom china should only be displayed. Not all heirloom china is safe to use. Testing fragile china for lead can destroy it.

If it has family history, it should be displayed or at least the history should be known to family members. A printed history kept with it would be nice. When clearing out my father's house, we found old china with no idea who it belonged to or any of its history. Most of the dishes were in bad shape, and we didn't keep them. It would have been nice to know the history.

The only ones I new the history was one set of glasses, because as a kid I had broken one. They were put away, and not seen for 50 years.
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We too use out china that has been in my husband's family since the 1860's. Silver candlesticks as well.

The stoneware we asked for as wedding gifts we use as our daily dishes. But the china gets used many times per year...for example, it's my only gravy boat.

Kristi
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it's my only gravy boat.



and here is where you lost me...are there really people with more than one?



peace & none
t



has probably never actually served gravy ...
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and here is where you lost me...are there really people with more than one?

Yes. I hate asking for it to be passed from the other end of the table. Also as fate would have it, it would probably need refilled before it gets to me.

has probably never actually served gravy ...

Gravy is a major food group.

PSU
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and here is where you lost me...are there really people with more than one?



peace & none
t


Have you ever hosted Thanksgiving?

Yes, I have more than one gravy boat and more than one pattern. Using two patterns makes it easy to identify the vegetarian gravy.
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vegetarian gravy

You lost me.
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Have you ever hosted Thanksgiving?



Yes.

But the tradtion in my house for Thanksgiving is Shrimp Scampi & Caesar salad...or paella



peace & no gravy
t
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vegetarian gravy

You lost me.


At least they stopped calling it Giblet gravy. I was trying to figure out which vegetable has a giblet.
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Yes.

But the tradtion in my house for Thanksgiving is Shrimp Scampi & Caesar salad...or paella



peace & no gravy
t


Sounds interesting, and less messy than dealing with a giant bird that is initially raw and then to hot to handle.
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Have you used it since?
If not, then what is the point?


I have what is left of my grandmother's china and my parents' crystal.
Both get used at least once a week.
Not a full set remains, and we are not careless, but crystal and china are fragile and a small "bump" that might not even make corelle vibrate will break china/crystal - and, in the end, they are just *THINGS*



Exactly, only I went the other direction. I had my grandmother's service for 12. I didn't really care for it and had probably used it 4 times in my life. Yet I'd MOVED it several times, carefully wrapping it and packing it, and unwrapping it and carefully placing it in the china hutch. Not this time. My good friend loves it, and I happily gave it to her. She used it at Thanksgiving, and I have no idea if any got broken, and don't care.

I use my Fiesta plates every day, and if one gets broken, I can run to Kohl's and replace it for not much money. Love my Fiesta.
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I'm pretty sure I have 2(but maybe 3) - one from only dishes, one stainless steel(wedding gift) but there may be one more - can't remember and not int location of dishes ;)
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It's a Kenmore, made by Whirlpool.
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My good friend loves it, and I happily gave it to her.

Good for you. If you never use it, no one in the family appreciates it, then it's a very good thing if you can find someone who WILL enjoy it and use it. I know a lot of people suffer from "ancestor guilt" (not to be confused with ancestor quilts which are truly wonderful) and end up storing and moving stuff, but never using that stuff, over and over again because they think it would somehow be disloyal to pass the item(s) on to eople who could use them.
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That was our reaction, too. Nope, no special connection. The local Plumbers' Union gave them some grief a few years back and this was the result. Personally, I think the $250 fee is padded a lot to help Sears' bottom line.
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Sounds interesting, and less messy than dealing with a giant bird that is initially raw and then to hot to handle.

Sounds like umber.

-synchronicity, because I've only seen it Raw or Burnt, nothing in between.
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after 4 years one should seriously think about replacing a broken dishwasher.

And thanks to modern digital controls, they can now be programmed to self destruct after 4 years and a day.

This is a major improvement in efficiency compared to the old methods which were messy and unreliable.
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when the salesman said there'd be a $250 charge for delivery and installation! The guy explained that we needed to have a Master Plumber involved to pull a permit. MDH said, "No way." We walked out of the store...

That fee sounds overpadded. You do have to pull a permit in St. Louis, but you don't have to have Sears do it. You can pull it yourself. Then you know it definitely has been pulled. And a "Master Plumber" is not mandatory, AFA I can tell from the requirements. Correctly installing so it meets code and passes inspection would be.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/columns/savvy-consumer/dish...
"...Sure enough, a spokesman for the St. Louis County’s public works department cited the same code. A dishwasher is “a plumbing appliance,” said David Wrone, and it requires a $63 permit and an inspection after it has been installed...."I would also suggest that homeowners take the initiative and inform their installers that they’re cognizant of the permit requirement and that they’ll take all necessary action to ensure that their install is performed to code," Wrone said.

http://ww5.stlouisco.com/scripts/epermit/faq.cfm
Examples of the types of permits that can be typically requested via the E-PERMITTING SYSTEM are as follows.....:

* Fixture replacement - same location and fixture count (Replace Like with Like)....


St. Louis Plumbing Code (search for "dishwasher"):
https://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/mo_stlouis_plumbing.pdf

He's seriously considering taking the thing home with us if it fits in the Jetta wagon and having #1 son help him install the thing himself.

Dishwashers are lightweight. We've easily been able to fit them in our Subaru wagons. We've always installed our own, as they've been replacement installs. It's not overly complicated if you're handy & familiar with plumbing/electrical.

Good luck!

Laura
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Also, on the off-chance you might want to take a look at it yourself, in case it's something you can figure out better than the repair people (yes, that does happen!), here is a list of appliance repair links that have been helpful to me over the years:

www.applianceaid.com
www.appliance411.com
http://applianceguru.com/
http://fixitnow.com/
http://www.partselect.com/dishwasher+dishwasher-wont-work+re...
http://www.american-appliance.com/catalog/newsdesk_index.php... (a series of tips, also sell parts)
http://www.doityourself.com/
http://www.expertcentral.com/
http://www.diynetwork.com/search/results.do?diySearchString=...
(has a video on dishwasher installs here too)
www.repairclinic.com
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/partsdirect/index.action (parts)

This time, it didn't blink any error codes! But it still leaves about an inch of water in the bottom.

This might sound silly and obvious, but did you check that the internal filter/drainage area is clean & unclogged? Pull it out and check that the drain hose is clear? I had someone give away an older dishwasher once as "broken" when all it had was a dirty, partially clogged drain line.

HTH,

Laura
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LQu,

Yep, we checked the filter almost first thing. We've learned about all the simple things with this lemon.

I'm sure MDH and #1 son can deal with the install. MDH is a Mechanical Engineer by training. In his boyhood he was a ham radio operator, before progressing to helping his Dad in the machine tools business. #1 son had a semester of auto mechanics and aced the electrical class. (He's working on an MS in Computer Science.)

PM
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Laura,

Thanks for the links! I'll pass them along, just in case they encounter something puzzling.

PM
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Just for the record, installing a dishwasher typically involves two hoses and an electrical connection. Period. Except for wrestling the old one out and the new one in, it should take 30-60 minutes, tops, unless you happen to find yourself with an odd connector and need to run to the hardware store.

The electrical connection is usually two wire nuts and a ground screwed to the chassis, the two hoses are usually a couple of ring clamps which unscrew and pull apart, or possibly a compression fitting which just tightens on with a wrench.

Since the last guy "walked" the old one into place, you can be sure you can walk it back out without too much trouble (unless you have added a new tile floor and "trapped" it in). If it's really snug you can lower it by turning the "feet" which add or subract height by tirning.

Look for two screws holding the dishwasher to the underside of the counter, and possibly, tho not usually one on each side of the chassis into the cabinet frame. The vanity "kick plate" at the bottom of the dishwasher comes off with two screws, also.

Walk it out. Disconnect electric, disconnect hoses, move new one into semi-position, connect hoses, connect electric, push in place, done. The only trick is to plan where the hoses will be as you push it back in. You don't want to kink the hoses, obviously. It's best form to replace the water-in (exhaust line isn't under pressure, rarely needs changing) line, which is under constant pressure, but if you just had one put in 4 years ago it's most probably unnecessary.

Extra credit: add soundproofing layer as you push it back in. They will sell you a 'jacket' of insulation for about $50, but just wrapping it in some leftover Fiberglas insulation will do mostly the same thing. You can knock the sound in half with only another few minutes effort. One thing: there's probably a small air vent somewhere in the back which discourages mildew; don't block it if you choose to add insulation.

This is a job so far below the level of 'master plumber' it isn't funny. Maybe it's not for a beginner because it seems intimidating, but there's nothing that a beginner can't do.
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I use my Fiesta plates every day, and if one gets broken, I can run to Kohl's and replace it for not much money. Love my Fiesta.

I love my Fiesta too! I started collecting it about 15 years ago when a friend of mine was given 8 place settings in different colors for her 50th birthday. I went to Macys to check out the Fiestaware and found that they were discontinuing a lot of the colors so I started buying it up at discounts of 50-70%. I bought Fiestaware for both my grown children who use it every day as I do. The stuff is practically indestructible. Recently I broke one of the big Latte mugs and I went on EBAY and was able to replace it. Great stuff.
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"Sounds like umber."

raw or burnt?
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raw or burnt?

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!

-synchronicity
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Laura,

Thank you. One of the links you supplied was a link from my website!

Boqueo
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Well then, thank you to you too, since it's come in handy for some appliance repair over the years.

If you don't mind answering - which one?

Laura
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