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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 196103  
Subject: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/15/2013 2:54 PM
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Interesting ethical problem:

http://news.yahoo.com/deaf-twins-going-blind-euthanized-1655...

More than 1,000 people legally availed themselves of doctor-assisted deaths in Belgium in 2011, most of them were terminally ill cancer patients.

The brothers are unique in that their illness was not terminal. Belgian law, however, allows doctors to euthanize "suffering" patients who are both mentally sound, over 18 and want to die.
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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184978 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/15/2013 3:00 PM
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Interesting ethical problem:


I dont see the problem
NTTAWWT ....

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184981 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/15/2013 4:02 PM
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What's the problem? They made informed decisions. It was their right to make that decision for themselves.

We can't (and shouldn't) judge such things for other people. We don't walk in their shoes. They made the choice that was right for them.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184982 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/15/2013 6:04 PM
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What's the problem? They made informed decisions. It was their right to make that decision for themselves.

We can't (and shouldn't) judge such things for other people. We don't walk in their shoes. They made the choice that was right for them.


I agree. I'm not a huge fan of euthanasia but this falls under the category of something the government should stay out of.
Ray

PS ending sentences with prepositions is something up with which i will not put.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184984 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 2:04 AM
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I'm not a huge fan of euthanasia but this falls under the category of something the government should stay out of.

It's difficult to be a "fan", but I understand what you mean. I do think a person should have the right to make that choice for themselves, whether or not I would make (or approve) of that choice myself. Government certainly should have nothing to say about it.

I used to say that if I were disabled in some manner that I'd choose to die (depending on the nature and severity). I still think I would, but I also know that I can't be sure unless, and until, I find myself in that situation.

PS ending sentences with prepositions is something up with which i will not put.

:-)

We get into that over on AF from time to time. Apparently there is no actual rule about it, but an author while criticizing a rival author used ending with prepositions against him, and it has sort of stuck as "bad form" ever since.

1poorguy

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184986 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 10:01 AM
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Interesting ethical problem:

Actually, I don't think this is an ethical problem at all. They made their informed decision as adults who comprehended the consequences of their actions.

Whether it is a moral problem is different, given that morals are what deal with the religious implications of suicide.

GSF

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184987 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 10:21 AM
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Interesting ethical problem:
Actually, I don't think this is an ethical problem at all. They made their informed decision as adults who comprehended the consequences of their actions.
Whether it is a moral problem is different, given that morals are what deal with the religious implications of suicide.

GSF

===========================
In your view, what is the difference between a "moral" and "ethical" problem? They're generally understood to mean the same thing, i.e., whether something is right or wrong. And it may be in the context of religious, or some other set of rules.

Bill

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184991 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 11:08 AM
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What's the problem? They made informed decisions. It was their right to make that decision for themselves.

Does this case fall under the accepted definition of euthanasia?

Medical Definition of EUTHANASIA
: the act or practice of killing hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy.


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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184992 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 12:08 PM
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In your view, what is the difference between a "moral" and "ethical" problem? They're generally understood to mean the same thing, i.e., whether something is right or wrong. And it may be in the context of religious, or some other set of rules.

In my mind, "ethics" tends to refer to a set of rules that have much more to do with the social contract and framework in place than any thing having to do with a religious framework.

OTOH, morals, as I understand them, cannot exist apart from a religious framework and are part of the divine rules from the god or gods of the framework. Whether they are "right" or "wrong" from an ethical framework, they are "right" simply because they are part of the religion, and as such divine, and cannot be wrong for that reason.

An example would be:

Gay marriage can be considered ethically correct (fairness and separation of church and state in the United states) and morally wrong (if you believe in taking the bible completely literally and interpret homosexual behavior under any circumstances whatsoever as wrong).

I, personally, tend to hold myself to far more of an ethical standard than a moral one.

GSF

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184993 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 12:30 PM
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Medical Definition of EUTHANASIA
: the act or practice of killing hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy.


I'd call it 'assisted suicide'
I think euthanasia implies someone else
makes the decision.



does it matter?

(whatever it is: much tidier than US
methods of suicide

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184994 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 2:33 PM
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Medical Definition of EUTHANASIA
: the act or practice of killing hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy.


I was going to post on this but ate it because it put me on this slippery slope you're sliding on.

Terminally ill is a no brainer, but what about death with dignity for those who made a choice while mentally functional then slipped into dementia? What if I had made a decision to not be a burden on my family in the event of severe debilitating injury requiring full time care prior to an accident that left me vegetative?

Once you accept the right to die on yourterms rather than the state's, you only need know that the person is mentally competent when the decision is made. That's why I prefer declarations made well before a crisis or problem exists, rather than made after the fact.

Or so it seems to me.

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Author: RayKinsella Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184995 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 2:44 PM
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It's difficult to be a "fan", but I understand what you mean. I do think a person should have the right to make that choice for themselves, whether or not I would make (or approve) of that choice myself. Government certainly should have nothing to say about it.

It is a tough, tough issue. The tougher the issue, the more I believe the government should stay out of it.


I used to say that if I were disabled in some manner that I'd choose to die (depending on the nature and severity). I still think I would, but I also know that I can't be sure unless, and until, I find myself in that situation.

I want to hold onto this life as long as possible. But I also want to reserve the right to let it go at my will and not Uncle Sams.


PS ending sentences with prepositions is something up with which i will not put.

:-)

We get into that over on AF from time to time.


that's the least surprising thing I've read all day.

Apparently there is no actual rule about it, but an author while criticizing a rival author used ending with prepositions against him, and it has sort of stuck as "bad form" ever since.

I've heard an unwritten rule. I find the 'error' doesn't get in the way of understanding. Since communication is the goal of writing, the mistake never bothered me much.
Ray

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184996 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 4:20 PM
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I'd call it 'assisted suicide'
I think euthanasia implies someone else
makes the decision.

does it matter?


Well, should a person have the right to physician assisted suicide for any reason?

What if the person is not terminally ill (as these two apparently were not)?

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184997 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 4:22 PM
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Once you accept the right to die on yourterms rather than the state's, you only need know that the person is mentally competent when the decision is made. That's why I prefer declarations made well before a crisis or problem exists, rather than made after the fact.

I agree. Now define 'mentally competent'. Is someone who is depressed considered 'mentally competent'?

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184998 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 5:08 PM
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I agree. Now define 'mentally competent'. Is someone who is depressed considered 'mentally competent'?

Depends on the level and depth. Someone in a temporary severe state of depression isn't competent to make life and death decisions.

Someone who is chronically depressed is a little harder to navigate. Taking away their right to death may force them to live inside their own private hell.

There's two separate issues: quality of life and dignity in death.

Dignity in death is the easy part, because you're already dieing anyway.

The quality of life issue seems to be where you and I are struggling. I agree, that presents some issues, but I don't find them to be moral, they are more culturally biased.

Question for you, who are you and I (the state) to tell someone what is and isn't an acceptable quality of life for them, if the underlying cause is permanent?

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 184999 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 6:19 PM
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Well, should a person have the right to physician assisted suicide for any reason?

What if the person is not terminally ill (as these two apparently were not)?



yes.

perhaps be NICE if there were some sort of honest discussion about the why's and the alternatives.

but (IMO) only thing wrong about suicide is the mess.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185000 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 7:35 PM
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<<
Question for you, who are you and I (the state) to tell someone what is and isn't an acceptable quality of life for them, if the underlying cause is permanent?
>>

Dying is easy, living is hard....


I do not think that a physician or anyone else should assist another in suicide unless the person has a debilitating disease such that they do not have the ability to do it themselves.

Many states charge anyone assisting a suicide with manslaughter or a more severe charge. Even family members like a child or spouse have been charged. No matter how I am suffering I would not place the mental burden of ending my life on another.

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185001 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 8:08 PM
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I do not think that a physician or anyone else should assist another in suicide unless the person has a debilitating disease such that they do not have the ability to do it themselves.

Many states charge anyone assisting a suicide with manslaughter or a more severe charge. Even family members like a child or spouse have been charged. No matter how I am suffering I would not place the mental burden of ending my life on another.


There's a big difference between the fact that laws are written in such a way to permit charges being brought against someone who assists in suicide and the "mental burden" of asking someone to do it.

The laws can be rewritten and IMO, there's no reason for that to be the issue.

Asking someone to help you do something that they do not want to do is something else entirely, however, there are many people who believe strongly that helping another die with dignity is a worthwhile thing to do and do not look at it as a burden, but a gift.

I would never ask someone to help me that did not feel that way. However, many of the medical professionals I know have absolutely had "that case" where they came to the realization that a peaceful end is indeed an end to suffering, and deeply regretted the restrictions placed on them to help someone with something they clearly wanted.

GSF

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185002 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 9:56 PM
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Dying is easy, living is hard....

This isn't an issue of hard or easy. We all struggle with life and opt not to end it.

What's hard in this country is living and dying with some degree of self-controlled dignity. When I reach a point that I feel my usefulness is done, I'd prefer not to hang around any longer. I've told my wife and kids my preferred exit is to jump a motorcycle off the the edge of the Grand Canyon with several pounds of dynamite strapped to it set to blow as I sailed toward the bottom. I appreciate that the wreckage dropped in a national landmark is an issue for others, but what's the problem with my going out that way if I could cleanly incinerate myself and the bike?

Many states charge anyone assisting a suicide with manslaughter or a more severe charge.

Like I said, cultural bias. These laws don't reflect some universal social need, like making theft illegal.

No matter how I am suffering I would not place the mental burden of ending my life on another.

There are plenty of doctors that don't see this as a burden. They see it as relieving one.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185003 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 10:34 PM
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What's hard in this country is living and dying with some degree of self-controlled dignity. When I reach a point that I feel my usefulness is done, I'd prefer not to hang around any longer. I've told my wife and kids my preferred exit is to jump a motorcycle off the the edge of the Grand Canyon with several pounds of dynamite strapped to it set to blow as I sailed toward the bottom. I appreciate that the wreckage dropped in a national landmark is an issue for others, but what's the problem with my going out that way if I could cleanly incinerate myself and the bike?
================================
That just doesn't strike me as particularly dignified, or easy, let alone painless. I'd opt for a large dose of painkillers, washed down with some Jameson's Irish Whiskey. But that's just me.

Bill

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185004 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/16/2013 11:47 PM
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I appreciate that the wreckage dropped in a national landmark is an issue for others, but what's the problem with my going out that way if I could cleanly incinerate myself and the bike?

??? that's exactly the 'problem'-- making a mess in a
National Park... maybe starting a forest fire .. maybe
hitting a Rabbit .. or a hiker

you should have the right to kill yourself
but not make a mess ..

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185005 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 2:47 AM
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<<
That just doesn't strike me as particularly dignified, or easy, let alone painless. I'd opt for a large dose of painkillers, washed down with some Jameson's Irish Whiskey. But that's just me.

Bill
>>
I told my sister a couple of weeks ago that if I was able, I would take a walk in the woods and when I was not able to go any further I would sit down by a tree and I might not move again.... but a bottle of Jamison's would be a nice addition to that plan...

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185006 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 9:02 AM
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But that's just me.

I agree. That's the whole point.

washed down with some Jameson's Irish Whiskey

I'm a Scotch guy. I find that Irish whiskey tastes like potato famine.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185007 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 9:07 AM
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you should have the right to kill yourself
but not make a mess ..


Check. So I'll scratch the human firework display. Can I still ask everyone to come and get drunk and get into a barroom brawl?

One issue I see is fraud. How would one deal with life insurance? Still cancel it out? Is that fair if someone paid for a period of years in good faith and circumstances changed? Is it fair to have a payout if someone pulls a policy then offs themselves?

Civil stuff, but still issues.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185008 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 9:48 AM
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One issue I see is fraud. How would one deal with life insurance? Still cancel it out? Is that fair if someone paid for a period of years in good faith and circumstances changed? Is it fair to have a payout if someone pulls a policy then offs themselves?

Civil stuff, but still issues.

=====================================
Generally, life insurance is going to pay off in the case of suicide anyway, if you've had the policy long enough (which is usually two years, but read the fine print),after which the policy is "inconstestable". After that, suicide is just part of the statistics, and is built into the mortality tables. The period may be determined by state law, or just be up to the insurance company. I had one group policy through work, where the period was one year - long since passed.

The theory is that nobody who's thinking about suicide is going to take out additional life insurance and then wait around for two years.

And in the case of a terminally ill person, the insurance company would have had to pay off soon, anyway.

Bill

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185009 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 9:51 AM
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Generally, life insurance is going to pay off in the case of suicide anyway, if you've had the policy long enough (which is usually two years, but read the fine print),after which the policy is "inconstestable". After that, suicide is just part of the statistics, and is built into the mortality tables. The period may be determined by state law, or just be up to the insurance company. I had one group policy through work, where the period was one year - long since passed.

The theory is that nobody who's thinking about suicide is going to take out additional life insurance and then wait around for two years.

And in the case of a terminally ill person, the insurance company would have had to pay off soon, anyway.

Bill


Thanks. Looks like all we need to do is change our underlying culture and we can start being civilized.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185010 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 9:57 AM
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<<
Thanks. Looks like all we need to do is change our underlying culture and we can start being civilized.
>>

I am not sure our underlying culture will ever be considered civilized by most of the world.

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185011 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 11:01 AM
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Check. So I'll scratch the human firework display. Can I still ask everyone to come and get drunk and get into a barroom brawl?

Unless it's your barroom, it's still a mess, and whether or not you were planning to kill yourself, I can think of almost no circumstances under which a barroom brawl could be considered "assisted suicide."

Plus, I'm fairly sure that it does not fall under the "dignity" portion of dying with dignity in that case.

Remember, we're going for a peaceful end to suffering, here.

GSF

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185012 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 12:11 PM
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Plus, I'm fairly sure that it does not fall under the "dignity" portion of dying with dignity in that case.

Remember, we're going for a peaceful end to suffering, here.



not me -- I'm going for end it with as much freedom
as possible ( as little aggravation as possible to
society and family .. if he can afford the
barroom breakage --why not?

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185013 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 12:24 PM
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Remember, we're going for a peaceful end to suffering, here.

You're tough dude.

So, I can off myself as long as you're okay with it. Got it.

No human firework displays. No wake until after I'm dead.

Just seems so cold. I was hoping for a party. Kind of like when Carson used to bomb the monologue then get a standing ovation when he finished.

*sigh*

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185014 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 12:35 PM
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if he can afford the
barroom breakage --why not?


Someone who gets me!

It's a euphemism, but I don't want to be remembered as an invalid or as dead. Life's sweet and I don't want my loved ones dwelling on me. If I can give them a running head start right from the get go, I'll do it. Lord knows I've spent years laying the ground work and clearly articulating my wishes to them.

No extraordinary measures. If my brain or body is shot, pull the plugs. Cremate me as quickly as possible, before notice to the rest of the world. Agree on some really cool place to take a vacation. Figure out how to get my ashes there (cardboard box, no urn for me), scatter my sorry ass to the 4 winds, and have a great time on my nickle and for me.

GSF can have the quiet chamber music. I want rock and roll.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185015 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 1:12 PM
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<<
No wake until after I'm dead.

Just seems so cold. I was hoping for a party
>>

I like the idea in principle .... but if I am doing poorly enough that I would seek to off myself, ain't that likely that I would enjoy a party?

Now if I was diagnosed with something that was going to take me out soon, I think a pre-incapacitation wake would be an excellent idea!

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185016 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 1:20 PM
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Did you ever see the original movie MASH, Nigel? There's nothing wrong with partying, or whatever, and ending the party with a "black capsule". You don't have to cause havoc in the process.

It's actually an interesting idea...you know you're terminal, you have everyone over for a nice party, then you go upstairs and take your capsule. Done. Friends and family can be bedside, or not, as you wish.

Seems pretty civilized to me. Beats the heck out of a brawl also. (IMO)

1poorguy

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185017 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 5:01 PM
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Did you ever see the original movie MASH, Nigel?

Of course. When it was originally released in the theater.

There's nothing wrong with partying, or whatever, and ending the party with a "black capsule". You don't have to cause havoc in the process.

You guys are killing me. Who needs assisted suicide with folks like you and GSF around?

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Author: GardenStateFool Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185018 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 7:54 PM
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You guys are killing me. Who needs assisted suicide with folks like you and GSF around?

I was actually thinking that the barroom brawl would, well, be the cause of your demise, not a prelude.

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Author: Wradical Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185019 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/17/2013 10:06 PM
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You guys are killing me. Who needs assisted suicide with folks like you and GSF around?
==============================
(GSF:)I was actually thinking that the barroom brawl would, well, be the cause of your demise, not a prelude.

==============================
That's basically what John Wayne did, with the final gunfight he arranged for himself on his birthday, in "The Shootist."

Bill

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Author: feedmeNOWhuman Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185027 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/18/2013 11:47 PM
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washed down with some Jameson's Irish Whiskey

I'm a Scotch guy. I find that Irish whiskey tastes like potato famine.




Oban is my new favorite.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185028 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/19/2013 12:04 AM
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Oban is my new favorite.

Pricey but delicious.

If you like Oban, you should like Aberlour, if you haven't tasted it yet.

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185032 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 2:06 PM
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you should have the right to kill yourself
but not make a mess ..


Or take others with you.

I agree that a person should be allowed to end their own life if, and being of right mind, they choose to do so.

Surely there has to be some government oversight if we allow others to do it for you? There is in Belgium, of course.

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185034 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 3:29 PM
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you should have the right to kill yourself
but not make a mess ..

Or take others with you.


absolutely


I agree that a person should be allowed to end their own life if, and being of right mind, they choose to do so.

Surely there has to be some government oversight if we allow others to do it for you? There is in Belgium, of course.



if only to make sure it's your decision

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185036 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 9:48 PM
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<<
Surely there has to be some government oversight if we allow others to do it for you?
>>

I do not think so.
The government should not be involved at all in this decision.....

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Author: jrdown Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185037 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 9:58 PM
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lhaselden ~

<<
Surely there has to be some government oversight if we allow others to do it for you?
>>


I do not think so.
The government should not be involved at all in this decision.....


As much as I hate the thought of suicide I see this suggestion and the nail in the coffin that the government is involved from cradle to grave. The government is already way too involved in deciding birth locations, attendees, forced vaccinations and way more throughout your life. I do not want any government agency or person involved in controlling suicide.


Robyn

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185038 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 10:44 PM
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As much as I hate the thought of suicide I see this suggestion and the nail in the coffin that the government is involved from cradle to grave. The government is already way too involved in deciding birth locations, attendees, forced vaccinations and way more throughout your life. I do not want any government agency or person involved in controlling suicide.



maybe just me... but i'd rather not leave it entirely to the discretion of the doctor...

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Author: AdrianC Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185040 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 11:00 PM
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maybe just me... but i'd rather not leave it entirely to the discretion of the doctor...

Not just you.

I'm amazed at some of the responses here.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185041 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 11:04 PM
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forced vaccinations

Nothing like a good outbreak of small pox, mumps, measles, tuberculosis etc. etc. etc. Small price to pay for your right to opt out.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185042 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/20/2013 11:09 PM
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maybe just me... but i'd rather not leave it entirely to the discretion of the doctor...

Not just you.

I'm amazed at some of the responses here.


Doctors, family members, and patient (if of clear mind) can do the job best. Who would over see that?

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185043 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 1:15 AM
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Doctors, family members, and patient (if of clear mind) can do the job best. Who would over see that?



who determines "of clear mind"?

who decides disagreements?





maybe i watch too much TV .. i just imagine being put down in my sleep at the hospital ..and Dr telling my family i asked for it.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185044 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 1:34 AM
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Doctors, family members, and patient (if of clear mind) can do the job best. Who would over see that?

Sometimes family members have grudges or inheritances to go after. Sometimes doctors can be deep in student loan debt and bribed or overworked and careless. Etc.

*shrug*

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185045 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 6:33 AM
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<<
maybe just me... but i'd rather not leave it entirely to the discretion of the doctor...
>>

If it is at the discretion of the doctor it is murder! If the person is not brain dead they cannot turn off life support now without a court order or possibly with the patients prior consent sometimes verbally from family members.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185047 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 6:41 AM
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<<
maybe i watch too much TV .. i just imagine being put down in my sleep at the hospital ..and Dr telling my family i asked for it.
>>
Then in most states the doctor would be charged with manslaughter or more and the family would have a hell of a malpractice case.... of course you would still be dead... but your family and their lawyers might benefit.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185048 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 8:17 AM
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maybe i watch too much TV .. i just imagine being put down in my sleep at the hospital ..and Dr telling my family i asked for it.

I don't think any system prevents those killer angels you see on TV. You need a living will that spells out your wishes clearly for a number of different scenarios. No matter how close a family may be, the articulated desires of the patient relieve a lot of stress, and changes the family's role from decision maker to supporter. It also clearly spells out to doctors, administrators, and judges what you want.

Everyone should have one and update it every 5 years. Your life, your body, your right.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185049 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 8:24 AM
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Sometimes family members have grudges or inheritances to go after. Sometimes doctors can be deep in student loan debt and bribed or overworked and careless. Etc.

I don't live on the same planet as you an ox, apparently. I've been faced with ending the life of a family member twice. The only intrigue was executing the wishes of the loved one lying there with no viable functioning brain. Family initiated the decision, doctors carried it out.

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185050 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 9:22 AM
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<<
Everyone should have one and update it every 5 years.
>>
i need to get that done!

<<
Your life, your body, your right.
>>

except if I do not get it done.... my life, my body, someone else's decision.....

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185051 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 12:02 PM
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maybe just me... but i'd rather not leave it entirely to the discretion of the doctor...

Of course not. It should the the individual's choice, and theirs alone. The doctor might provide the information (e.g. terminal brain cancer), but the patient decides.

And government should have zero to say about it. It's none of their business whether or not I choose to end my life.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185053 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 12:08 PM
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...the articulated desires of the patient relieve a lot of stress,...

It can. It can also add more stress. Depends what's happening. Consider a family member who doesn't want blood (JW). Spouse or offspring thinks that's stupid, but when that family member is lying in the ICU needing blood...do you let them die or sign the approval?

I don't like this word, but "morally" you should follow their wishes, IMO. Actually doing it knowing they will die from something preventable would be agonizing, IMO.

1poorguy

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185054 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 12:36 PM
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I don't like this word, but "morally" you should follow their wishes, IMO. Actually doing it knowing they will die from something preventable would be agonizing, IMO.

I'm not sure how a medical directive works in your state, but I don't think a directive as you suggest is legally binding here in Jersey. The directives we've executed spell out our wishes to use the most aggressive treatment, no matter what the risk, if the condition will result in permanent impairment if treatment is not rendered, and to cease life support and all other drugs other than pain relief in the event that the brain and body are so injured that we can't sustain life on our own (with little or no hope that we ever will again).

I've been very explicit to my wife and kids that I don't want to be a living shrine to anyone. We all accept that death is just as natural a part of life as birth is.

In the end, we should all want our loved ones to be happy. If their happiness is in opposition to our own, so what?

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185055 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 12:46 PM
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I don't think any system prevents those killer angels you see on TV


true. govt involvement might constrain them

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185056 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 12:50 PM
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And government should have zero to say about it. It's none of their business whether or not I choose to end my life.


guess it is just me (& Ben?) that thinks there might be
rogue doctors out there

o well

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185057 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 1:17 PM
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<<
true. govt involvement might constrain them
>>

or
govt involvement might encourage them.....

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Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185058 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 1:19 PM
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<<0
guess it is just me (& Ben?) that thinks there might be
rogue doctors out there

o well
>>

governments sux too!

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185059 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 1:24 PM
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guess it is just me (& Ben?) that thinks there might be
rogue doctors out there


Isn't that process already in place? We have a criminal system and courts. The criminal system prosecutes rogue doctors and nurses already, and courts adjudicate in the event that family members disagree.

I think I'm missing something. How does government oversight or involvement stop rogues or disputes?

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185062 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 2:48 PM
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Isn't that process already in place? We have a criminal system and courts. The criminal system prosecutes rogue doctors and nurses already, and courts adjudicate in the event that family members disagree.

I think I'm missing something. How does government oversight or involvement stop rogues or disputes?


By setting up rules that have to be followed about how you establish what the individual wants, or how you know if the individual isn't competent to decide on their own and how that works, etc. Without those kinds of rules you'll end up with doctors afraid of facing charges for helping. Or clever people finding ways to get away with murder. Or both.

I'm probably mis-understanding what you mean by 'no government involvement'...since you just listed a bunch of government involvement at the beginning of your post above.

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185064 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 3:56 PM
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guess it is just me (& Ben?) that thinks there might be
rogue doctors out there


There is corruption (and incompetence) in medicine just like any other field. But, as pointed out, we have systems in place to punish wrong-doers. Though, yes, I could see having rules or guidelines to help prevent abuse.

Presently, however, suicide technically is a crime in many places. Assisting suicide is murder everywhere (that I'm aware of in the US). If you fail you're tossed in a mental institution (which may or may not be appropriate, but we're talking disability and terminal illness here, not "my girlfriend slept with my dad" - which is nearly always a temporary "funk").

If I'm old, bed-ridden, in pain...I should have the right to end my life, or if I can't do it myself have someone help me do it (without that person fearing jail time).

1poorguy

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Author: 1poorguy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185066 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 4:11 PM
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I'm not sure how a medical directive works in your state,...

Actually, neither am I. Putting them into a will is pointless because a will isn't read until after death. Mostly, to the best of my knowledge, family is relied upon to relay the desires of the patient if they are unable to do so.

That JWs don't want procedures involving blood is not a secret, though family would be required to inform a provider of this if the patient could not. So, let's suppose your wife was JW and she was in an auto accident. You go the hospital, they want you to sign the approval forms for surgery (that will involve blood or blood plasma)...do you tell them knowing she could die without the blood products?

I know that is a bit tangential to the original topic of death with dignity, and choosing to end your life when quality of that life has declined too much. I was just responding to the idea that medical directives remove a lot of stress from family. They can, but in my scenario I think they would add more. After all, if the blood is used there is an excellent chance for a full recovery (and restoration of quality of life). If not, death is nearly certain. It's not as clear-cut as terminal Huntington's, for example.

1poorguy

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Author: 0x6a74 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185067 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 4:40 PM
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I'm probably mis-understanding what you mean by 'no government involvement'...since you just listed a bunch of government involvement at the beginning of your post above.



i think we were reading "no govt involvement" as "NO govt involvement",
where they meant "govt shouldn't stop me"




.. the thing about vaccines had me confused.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185068 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 5:04 PM
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By setting up rules that have to be followed about how you establish what the individual wants, or how you know if the individual isn't competent to decide on their own and how that works, etc. Without those kinds of rules you'll end up with doctors afraid of facing charges for helping. Or clever people finding ways to get away with murder. Or both.

Minimal rules. That's what 1pg and I are saying. There are too many individual situations compounded by individual wants, needs, and wishes. But we should have a legal system that recognizes medical directives/living wills in all states that have force and effect.

There are restrictions imposed upon your estate under state and federal law, but imagine if they were onerous. The laws are tax based and dependent upon the relationship to the inheritor to the deceased (closer = better, farther = more to the government). Doctors can't and shouldn't be able to end a life without family consent or a clear medical directive. Neither available? A court must be involved. Hospitals should have a system in place so that no one doctor makes the decision. My experience? Already in place.

I'm probably mis-understanding what you mean by 'no government involvement'...since you just listed a bunch of government involvement at the beginning of your post above.

I mean we already have an adequate amount of government involvement in place. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding because it seems that you and ox are arguing a need for more. I don't see what more accomplishes.

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Author: NigelGlitter Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185069 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 5:29 PM
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Putting them into a will is pointless because a will isn't read until after death. Mostly, to the best of my knowledge, family is relied upon to relay the desires of the patient if they are unable to do so.

Here, medical directives accompanied with an appointment of an attorney-in-fact are recognized. The directive spells out wishes in the case of severe medical circumstances and appoints another (generally a family member, but can be anyone) to speak with the same force and effect as the person who signed it. This means no one has to take anyone's word for anything. Here is what I want, and if it needs interpretation, I trust this person to answer the same as me. Do what they say.

That JWs don't want procedures involving blood is not a secret, though family would be required to inform a provider of this if the patient could not. So, let's suppose your wife was JW and she was in an auto accident. You go the hospital, they want you to sign the approval forms for surgery (that will involve blood or blood plasma)...do you tell them knowing she could die without the blood products?

Okay, real life scenario. My dad was run over by a van and was a mess. He clearly articulated his wishes, and appointed me as his attorney-in-fact.

Mom blinked and was willing to accept dad in any condition. I knew dad wasn't. Took a little bit of talking and a lot of "I have to do what he wanted, and like it or not, that's why he asked me and not you" and we went with the high risk surgery.

was just responding to the idea that medical directives remove a lot of stress from family. They can, but in my scenario I think they would add more. After all, if the blood is used there is an excellent chance for a full recovery (and restoration of quality of life).

You're addressing people who are not fully engaged. I don't live in that world. Obviously the law would have to address both. But speaking from this side of the fence, I don't need nor want anyone else involved beyond those I trust to act on my behalf. I wouldn't marry someone who didn't accept me just as I come, and who I didn't accept just as they come. And when the time comes, if I outlive my wife which no man ever does, I'll have to respect her wishes, and not let doctors stick her full of needles, which she hates, unless I know she'll come out the other side fine.

It's not just about religious beliefs, it's about understanding someone else and being able to wear their shoes when the brown stuff hits the fan, and having the faith in another person to wear yours.

I recognize many people either have no one to depend on at that level, or avoid the ugly discussion of death. I would hope that the law, in trying to provide for them, doesn't get involved with me and mine.

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Author: benjd25 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 185070 of 196103
Subject: Re: Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized Date: 1/21/2013 8:31 PM
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I mean we already have an adequate amount of government involvement in place. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding because it seems that you and ox are arguing a need for more. I don't see what more accomplishes.

I thought you were arguing for less.

*grin*

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