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Author: GrumpyOldGuy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1932974  
Subject: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 1:06 PM
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WASHINGTON (AP) — Recalling the shooting rampage that killed 20 first graders as the worst day of his presidency, President Barack Obama on Sunday pledged to put his "full weight" behind legislation aimed at preventing gun violence.

Obama voiced skepticism about the National Rifle Association's proposal to put armed guards in schools following the Dec. 14 tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. The president made his comments in an interview with NBC's "Meet the Press."

Instead, the president vowed to rally the American people around an agenda to limit gun violence, adding that he still supports increased background checks and bans on assault weapons and high-capacity bullet magazines. He left no doubt it will be one of his top priorities next year.


And when you have done that and screamed for an assault weapon ban, read
this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
The massacre is the deadliest shooting incident by a single gunman in U.S. history.
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Author: WuLong Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849672 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 1:10 PM
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It's all just window dressing.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849673 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 1:12 PM
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Instead, the president vowed to rally the American people around an agenda to limit gun violence, adding that he still supports increased background checks and bans on assault weapons and high-capacity bullet magazines. He left no doubt it will be one of his top priorities next year.

That's nice. He can ram his ban. I very much doubt he knows what an "Assault rifle" is.

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849676 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 2:00 PM
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That's nice. He can ram his ban. I very much doubt he knows what an "Assault rifle" is.

According to the NRA, nobody knows what an assault rifle is.

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Author: schvitzing Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849679 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 2:26 PM
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According to the NRA, nobody knows what an assault rifle is.

Or, as Justice Potter Stewart wrote in a concurring opinion on a pornography case, that while he could he could not define pornography, "...I know it when I see it."

His statement also applies to assault weapons, I think.

"http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0378...

Schvitz

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Author: wittgenstein Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849681 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 2:29 PM
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According to the NRA, nobody knows what an assault rifle is.

Bill, that's as I would expect. But we have a marvelously intelligent legislative branch in DC. (well you do, I don't have one in Harbour Island) And they will be able to come up with a definition.

I used to carry Holland and Holland 20 and 12 Gauge shotguns in Manhattan when I was on my back from duck shooting, closed up in cases and there was no problem. If they were considered assault weapons I'd disagree, but guess I'd have had to leave them back at the lake. But even having witnessed the deliberations of Congress, I'm still optimistic they could give us a definition. (I'm not expecting a solution from Obama, because he's busy averting cliffs and doing tax stuff I think.)

Semi-automatic 100 shot a minute things that do what they did at Sandy Hook somehow seem different to me. If our leaders and experts can't agree on a solution I'll still feel safe where I am and the weather's nice

jz

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849683 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 2:32 PM
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I think the point is that at Sandy Hook the weapon was, what is being called, an assault rifle ..... at Va Tech, it was a 22 and 9mm hand gun.

Seems for high volume homicide, the type of weapon is not the real factor ..... it's the determination of the gunman ....

or fire bomber, or truck bomb assembler, or auto driver, or swordsman, or the food contaminator, or infected invidual


Bears

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849686 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 2:40 PM
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According to the NRA, nobody knows what an assault rifle is.

I'd suggest that in the last month of 2012 alone the parents and families of 20 children and 4 firefighters know what an assault rifle is.

Poz

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849687 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 2:43 PM
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Seems for high volume homicide, the type of weapon is not the real factor ..... it's the determination of the gunman ....

And the ability to put a large volume of bullets in the air in a short amount of time.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849690 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 3:03 PM
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Seems for high volume homicide, the type of weapon is not the real factor ..... it's the determination of the gunman ....

And the ability to put a large volume of bullets in the air in a short amount of time.


VA tech was pulled off with pistols ... little ones at that

Bears

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Author: wzambon Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849692 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 3:21 PM
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VA tech was pulled off with pistols ... little ones at that


And a vest-full of high capacity magazines.

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849694 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 3:28 PM
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VA tech was pulled off with pistols ... little ones at that

Mag size is such a huge non-sequitur. An experienced shooter can carry a lot of little magazines and load them very quickly - in under a second - and keep shooting with little or no pause.

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849695 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 3:34 PM
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"Mag size is such a huge non-sequitur. An experienced shooter can carry a lot of little magazines and load them very quickly - in under a second - and keep shooting with little or no pause. "

Because, you know, all of these mass killers are actually Stallone clones.

Ken

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Author: FKJacobs Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849700 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 3:51 PM
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""Mag size is such a huge non-sequitur. An experienced shooter can carry a lot of little magazines and load them very quickly - in under a second - and keep shooting with little or no pause. "

This is a red herring....

As someone who has been through training in combat shooting I can tell you that there are few that can pull it off without a significant investment of money and time in hands on training.

Think of the pressure of swapping out a magazine in a room full of screaming people... One or more of whom may actually be running at you intending to disarm you....

Thankfully, most Wac-jobs are just not Navy Seals nor Delta-Force Commandos... Nor even trained to the level of local police...

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849702 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 4:02 PM
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Because, you know, all of these mass killers are actually Stallone clones.

Evidently you've never heard of these things called "pockets". Why don't you and Obama try and ban those, too? I hear fishing vests are really scary.

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849707 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 4:32 PM
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This is a red herring....

As someone who has been through training in combat shooting I can tell you that there are few that can pull it off without a significant investment of money and time in hands on training.



In the Va tech shootings, type of weapon, size of magazine, hours of training were the red herring, they had little to do with the outcome of 32 killed and 17 wounded

(1) When you are the only one in the area, you have all the time in the world to reload when necessary

(2) Cho did have all the time in the world

He killed the first two students

Returned to his room, changed his cloths, checked his computer, delete his e-mail, removed the hard drive, mailed a package to NBC

Two hours after the first shootings, he went to the Eng building and chained and locked the doors. He went to the second floor and started shooting

The police were called within one or two minutes of those shots.

Cho moved between 4 classrooms, shooting students and teachers, then reloaded and revisited several of the classrooms .... Approximately 10–12 minutes after the second attack began, Cho shot himself in the head

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Author: BlueGrits Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849720 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 5:07 PM
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GOG, have you heard of Google?

The legal term "Assault Weapon" was most notably used first in the language of the now-expired Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, more commonly known as the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004. The federal assault weapons ban specifically prohibited 19 guns considered to be assault weapons. These were all semi-automatic firearms, meaning that they can eject spent shell casings and chamber the next round without additional human action, but (as opposed to automatic firearms) only one round is fired per pull of the trigger.[8] In addition to the 19 weapons specifically prohibited, the federal assault weapons ban also defined as a prohibited assault weapon any semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine and at least two of the following five items: a folding or telescopic stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel (a barrel that can accommodate a flash suppressor); or a grenade launcher. The act also defined as a prohibited assault weapon semi-automatic pistols that weighed more than 50 ounces when unloaded or included a barrel shroud, and barred the manufacture of magazines for both pistols and rifles capable of carrying more than 10 rounds.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849729 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 5:14 PM
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"Mag size is such a huge non-sequitur. An experienced shooter can carry a lot of little magazines and load them very quickly - in under a second - and keep shooting with little or no pause."

a) most mass shootings are not done by 'experienced shooters' that would have that kind of ability, training, and expertise
b) very few 'experienced shooters' could actually do this even once or twice, much less do so in a chaotic situation
c) would not ANY delay be a good thing?
d) why does anyone need anything other than "little" magazines?

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849735 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 5:30 PM
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Well, almost more than one line. 8-)

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Author: JediGALT Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849740 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 5:46 PM
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The kind of weapons most commonly referred to in a certain segment of pop culture.

The kind of weapons used in America's most violent cities.

Oakland, St Louis, Detroit, LA, and other cities that voted obama by around 90%.

JediG

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Author: TheDope1 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849749 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 6:03 PM
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As someone who has been through training in combat shooting I can tell you that there are few that can pull it off without a significant investment of money and time in hands on training.

Think of the pressure of swapping out a magazine in a room full of screaming people... One or more of whom may actually be running at you intending to disarm you....

Thankfully, most Wac-jobs are just not Navy Seals nor Delta-Force Commandos... Nor even trained to the level of local police...


You just made my point for me. Most of these guys ARE whack jobs and they DON'T CARE who does what when.

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Author: GrumpyOldGuy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849772 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 8:12 PM
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GOG, have you heard of Google?

Grits, yes I have and by your "legal definition" if it looks scary it is an assault rifle, if it looks benign but functions exactly like an assault rifle then it is merely a varmit plunker.
But it's nice to know I can put a grenade launcher on my Ruger 10/22 and people would say "Wow, where can I get one of those?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_10/22

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Author: WuLong Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849800 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/30/2012 10:19 PM
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Poz:
If you are referring to the Newtown massacre, no rifle of any sort was used.
Demagogue much?

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849890 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 11:29 AM
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the weapon used WAS an AR15 Bushmaster assault rifle.

the initial news reports that the shooter used the two handguns that were found with him were incorrect. This was documented by the chief medical examiner.

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849931 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 1:07 PM
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WuLong

Poz:
If you are referring to the Newtown massacre, no rifle of any sort was used.
Demagogue much?


Who's demagoguing, the one with the facts or the one with an inaccurate drive by snipe?

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/East-Winsdor-Gun-Sh...

Police sources told the Hartford Courant that the store sold Nancy Lanza the Bushmaster AR-15 assault rifle that was used by her son, Adam Lanza, in last Friday's Sandy Hook School shooting.

Do you know more than the investigating police department?

Poz

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Author: WuLong Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849933 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 1:19 PM
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Who's demagoguing, the one with the facts or the one with an inaccurate drive by snipe?
As a guess, the one with the facts. That tends not to be you.

Police also found a semi-automatic Bushmaster .223 caliber rifle inside the car her drove to the school
(emphasis mine)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559336/conn-school-sho...

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Author: WuLong Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849935 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 1:20 PM
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This was documented by the chief medical examiner.
Link? Every report I've seen said the rifle was in the car, not the school.

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Author: WuLong Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849937 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 1:27 PM
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BTW, haven't seen you in a while.
Good to have you back.

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849938 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 1:28 PM
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WuLong

Your cited story was dated 12/16/12, mine (in which the police stated the bushmaster was used in the shooting) was dated 12/21/12.

Are you intentionally not seeing that which refutes your opinion?

Poz

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849942 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 1:36 PM
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Link? Every report I've seen said the rifle was in the car, not the school.

Just search "weapons used in Newtown shooting"
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGdV532eFQ0BEAPu5XNyoA...

You will get the following links:
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/12/19/bushmaster-223-weapon-us...

or this quote from the link that follows it:
The primary weapon used in the attack was a "Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type weapon," said Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance. The rifle is a Bushmaster version of a widely made AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 rifle used by the U.S. military. The original M-16 patent ran out years ago, and now the AR-15 is manufactured by several gunmakers. Unlike the military version, the AR-15 is a semiautomatic, firing one bullet per squeeze of the trigger. But like the M-16, ammunition is loaded through a magazine. In the school shooting, police say Lanza's rifle used numerous 30-round magazines.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/connecticut-lanza-guns/inde...

There are so many links that refute your position that one less kind might infer you were willfully not looking for facts, just cites to prove your pre-existing notions.

Since I'm not so inclined, I'll just say that I'm glad to help you become better informed.

Poz

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Author: WuLong Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849950 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 2:04 PM
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Are you intentionally not seeing that which refutes your opinion?
I do not have an "opinion". I have information, and frankly until now nothing you have linked seems to contradict that info.

Otoh, having seen dov's response, I did some googling and found the med examiner data he referred to, which does contradict that info.

And this leads to a bit of a conundrum - how could people be shot with a weapon which appears to have been elsewhere. The answer seems to be that the weapon in the car was actually a shotgun, not a rifle. Hence there was an additional weapon involved.

Had you actually said that, instead of ranting, thing could proceed more smoothly.

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Author: PosFCF Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849952 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 2:14 PM
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Had you actually said that, instead of ranting, thing could proceed more smoothly.

Take responsibility for your own actions, and do not blame someone else for your own ignorance.

Had you bothered to keep yourself informed with something approaching factual data as it was updated and released, you wouldn't have put yourself in a position to look so foolish.

You were the one who accused me of being misinformed. No one forced you to do it. I wasn't ranting in my original post, I was merely stating, in response to the title of the thread that there were, just in the last month, many families that definitely could define "assault rifle".

Poz

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849964 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 2:28 PM
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WuLong says

I do not have an "opinion". I have information, and frankly until now nothing you have linked seems to contradict that info.

Otoh, having seen dov's response, I did some googling and found the med examiner data he referred to, which does contradict that info.

And this leads to a bit of a conundrum - how could people be shot with a weapon which appears to have been elsewhere. The answer seems to be that the weapon in the car was actually a shotgun, not a rifle. Hence there was an additional weapon involved.

Had you actually said that, instead of ranting, thing could proceed more smoothly.

Not everyone can be that pompous when admitting to being dead wrong.

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Author: WuLong Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849970 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 2:37 PM
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Not everyone can be that pompous when admitting to being dead wrong.
I was not wrong about his demagoguery.
Everything that happened in that school could have occurred with the pistols. Hence, an assault weapon ban would likely have had no effect and such ban is nothing more than window dressing.

Additionally, there is a difference between "wrong" and "misinformed".
It is curious that you are able to confuse "analysis" and "pomposity". Not surprising, but curious.

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Author: dovbaer6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1849976 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 2:51 PM
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thx ....

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1850056 of 1932974
Subject: Re: Define "Assault Rifle" for me. Date: 12/31/2012 7:29 PM
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WuLong says

"Not everyone can be that pompous when admitting to being dead wrong."
I was not wrong about his demagoguery.
Everything that happened in that school could have occurred with the pistols. Hence, an assault weapon ban would likely have had no effect and such ban is nothing more than window dressing.

Additionally, there is a difference between "wrong" and "misinformed".
It is curious that you are able to confuse "analysis" and "pomposity". Not surprising, but curious.

Oh, sir, with the utmost respect, I am not the one who confuses pomposity with analysis.

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