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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 1949420  
Subject: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 11:58 AM
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These people are absolutely delusional:

http://www.nationalmemo.com/paul-ryan-blames-loss-on-urban-p...

Republicans just don't have a clue why they really lost this election.
They are completely delusional.


AM
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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836975 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:25 PM
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Apparently Janesville Wisconsin is urban. Ryan lost Janesville, his own hometown. Romney lost his hometown too, all of them.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836978 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:30 PM
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1. They lost for being to moderate
(McCain = moderate)
(Romney = moderate)

2. They lost because they tell people you have to work for things, while the other party tells them they don't have to.

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836979 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:33 PM
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1. They lost for being to moderate
(McCain = moderate)
(Romney = moderate)

2. They lost because they tell people you have to work for things, while the other party tells them they don't have to.

----------------


As I said, they are completely delusional.

AM

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836980 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:35 PM
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"As I said, they are completely delusional.

AM "

lol.. funny someone so clueless thinks they can call others clueless, that's priceless!

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Author: DufusGoneSplat Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836981 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:40 PM
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1. They lost for being to moderate
(McCain = moderate)
(Romney = moderate)


If the GOP can't nominate a candidate that's conservative enough, and a "moderate right" candidate can't win, what makes you believe a conservative (far-right) candidate is what Americans really want?

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836985 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:46 PM
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"If the GOP can't nominate a candidate that's conservative enough, and a "moderate right" candidate can't win, what makes you believe a conservative (far-right) candidate is what Americans really want? "

Conservative = far right?

No wonder you're confused, you don't even understand what a conservative is.

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Author: DufusGoneSplat Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836990 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:52 PM
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"If the GOP can't nominate a candidate that's conservative enough, and a "moderate right" candidate can't win, what makes you believe a conservative (far-right) candidate is what Americans really want? "

Conservative = far right?

No wonder you're confused, you don't even understand what a conservative is.


OK - Let me re-phrase the question to a format you might be able to answer rather than dodge;

If the GOP can't nominate a candidate that's conservative enough, and a moderate candidate can't win, what makes you believe a conservative candidate is what Americans really want?

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836993 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 12:56 PM
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If the GOP can't nominate a candidate that's conservative enough, and a moderate candidate can't win, what makes you believe a conservative candidate is what Americans really want?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The majority of Americans reject conservatism. They want Keynesian socialism. They want entitlements. They are lazy.

Mark

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1836997 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 1:03 PM
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If the GOP can't nominate a candidate that's conservative enough, and a moderate candidate can't win, what makes you believe a conservative candidate is what Americans really want?

__________

Because the last two GOP candidates who ran as actual conservatives both won...Reagan and W. Bush. (Whether they were actually conservative you can discuss)...the problem is when the GOP nominates moderates who try to be conservative they end up tripping themselves up...McCain, Dole and Romney.

BTW, I agree the Romney camp is delusional about why they lost, but the Obama camp is just as far in explaining why they won.

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Author: TheSmay Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837002 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 1:17 PM
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Traditional conservatism in this country is dead. Republicans are conservative on social issues only...they spend like democrats, or in other words, sailors on leave!

As for McCain and Romney being moderates who pandered to the conservative arm of the electorate...that was a big mistake. The reason many democrats liked McCain in the first place was his willing to cross the aisle to get things done. He was also a straight shooter. When he decided to pander, then chose Palin as his running mate, he lost any chance of garnering the independent and leaning votes.

Romney did the same, although he couldn't make up his mind for more than a day at a time. With a stalled economy and a president with low approval ratings, he could have won this election had he stayed moderate, instead tripping himself up numerous times while pandering. The 47% remark might have single handedly done him in.

My guess is that we won't see this mistake for the third time. With Christie's recent actions, and Jindal's recent comments, the right has to catch up with the times, or risk becoming modern day dinosaurs.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837004 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 1:19 PM
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"the right has to catch up with the times"

and what exactly is that? give away goodies to get votes?

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837012 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 1:29 PM
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McCain did more than select palin to assuage the tin foil hat crowd.

He went back on every moderate position he ever held.

The whole party is being held captive by the tinfoil hats.

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Author: SGIZ1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837025 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 1:38 PM
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"The whole party is being held captive by the tinfoil hats. "

Which are the establishment moderate Republicans

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Author: DufusGoneSplat Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837028 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 1:43 PM
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If the GOP can't nominate a candidate that's conservative enough, and a moderate candidate can't win, what makes you believe a conservative candidate is what Americans really want?
__________
Because the last two GOP candidates who ran as actual conservatives both won...Reagan and W. Bush. (Whether they were actually conservative you can discuss)


I appreciate the response, but I reject the logic.

First, growth in government spending, deficits and the national debt exploded under both Reagan and Bush-II. I understand limited government and balanced budgets as primary conservative values, so how could they win second terms as conservatives?

Second, simply stating that candidates won on a conservative platform both 32 years ago and 12 years ago hardly validates that a conservative platform is desirable today.

The GOP runs on their own platform, not necessarily a conservative platform. It appears that conservatives, by themselves, do not have a sufficient following to form their own party.

So perhaps the better question is "How can conservatives factually state that they can win an election, especially a presidential election, on their platform when they can't even form their own party?"

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837032 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 1:47 PM
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Republicans just don't have a clue why they really lost this election.

They are completely delusional


When you lose an election by a few points (rather than a 1984/1996-style blowout), almost anything can be a meaningful proximate cause. I don't think that Ryan is delusional in noting that a more urban electorate (ie. one where turnout in the urban areas is higher than expected) hurt the GOP. Of course, in almost any election, it is a truism (and something of a useless one) that the rason you lost is because more of the other guy's supporters showed up at the polls. But Ryan's not wrong in observing that urban voters tend to be overwhelmingly Democratic.

The urban/rural split between conservatives and progressivs is far more pronounced than the more generaliazed red-state/blue-state split. The GOP has a problem with density, put succinctly:

"There are certain things in which the physical nature of a city, the fact the people are piled on top of each other, requires some notion of the public good," [Princeton Historian Kevin Kruse] said. “Conservative ideology works beautifully in the suburbs, because it makes sense spatially."

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2012/11/political-...
http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/110074/the-gop-can%E2%80%99t-a...

Albaby

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837040 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 2:11 PM
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so how could they win second terms as conservatives?

__________

One reason for Reagan is he had to deal with a Democrat Congress. There was no choice but to compromise. With Bush, I agree he wasn't fiscal conservative, but a social one...but if you campaign with convictions, you can convince alot of people of anything.

Because the large portion of voters are F&@#%^ Idiots as we've seen in the past election. Obama's re-election proved that, no person with a job or who wants a job should have voted for Obama. No person with an IQ over 50 should have voted for him. Now the Lefties will reverse that and say the same thing about the Bush re-election. (Seriously, I feel like a Liberal in Nov 2004).

So the only explanation I can come up with is that too many voters are F-ing Idiots. Heck, look at the primaries. How did Obama beat Hillary and other more qualified Democrats in 2008? How did Romney the "father of ObamaKare" get through a GOP primary this year?

Voters are F*&^%$ Idiots and Romney should have run a campaign realizing that.

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Author: DufusGoneSplat Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837046 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 2:23 PM
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Voters are F*&^%$ Idiots and Romney should have run a campaign realizing that.

I have long held the belief that voters vote for the more handsome and charismatic candidate, acknowledging the advantage goes to the incumbent.

The debates aren't about voicing platforms - they are charm contests. We all got to see the polls sway to the better performance. Did you learn anything from the debates that you didn't already know?

When I originally told my mom this theory, she said "What about Nixon?" I responded "He ran against Hubert Humphrey." (Younger persons might want to look at their photos) Of course looks and charisma are subject to interpretation.

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Author: cjb44 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837056 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 3:05 PM
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I have long held the belief that voters vote for the more handsome and charismatic candidate, acknowledging the advantage goes to the incumbent.

____________

That doesn't explain this election to me. Obama looked tired next to Romney. And Romney had perfect hair...and frankly I don't find him charismatic. Basically Obama was a better liar because he's such an awful person, he doesn't care what it takes to win. I don't get the "he's the person you'd want a beer with"...I wouldn't want to spend time socially with either. Although I wouldn't mind getting stock tips from Romney.

Romney brought a plastic knife to a gun fight.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837057 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 3:09 PM
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Romney brought a plastic knife to a gun fight.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Romney brought a calculator and a shovel. Obama brought a recliner and sandwiches. America chose.

Mark

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Author: mbarr Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837065 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 3:20 PM
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When you lose an election by a few points (rather than a 1984/1996-style blowout), almost anything can be a meaningful proximate cause. I don't think that Ryan is delusional in noting that a more urban electorate (ie. one where turnout in the urban areas is higher than expected) hurt the GOP. Of course, in almost any election, it is a truism (and something of a useless one) that the rason you lost is because more of the other guy's supporters showed up at the polls. But Ryan's not wrong in observing that urban voters tend to be overwhelmingly Democratic.

Common sense and logic have no place on this board. Please take this nonsense elsewhere.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837068 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 3:22 PM
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I have long held the belief that voters vote for the more handsome and charismatic candidate, acknowledging the advantage goes to the incumbent.

____________

That doesn't explain this election to me. Obama looked tired next to Romney. And Romney had perfect hair...and frankly I don't find him charismatic. Basically Obama was a better liar because he's such an awful person, he doesn't care what it takes to win. I don't get the "he's the person you'd want a beer with"...I wouldn't want to spend time socially with either. Although I wouldn't mind getting stock tips from Romney.

Romney brought a plastic knife to a gun fight.

______________________________________

Let's be fair to Obama, though he may or may not be a better liar.

There really was no proof in this election that he was the better liar

Obama never had to defend his lies. In fact the one time he was the press stepped in and said that he was not lying and that they had the proof with them

On the other hand, Romney was called a liar many times, when in fact he was not lying -- kind of hard to defend against that

Now this is not to say Romney was not a better liar or that Obama was not a more skilled liar, just there was no meaningful way to make a comparison the field that the two played on had absolutely nothing in common

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Author: rubberthinking Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837070 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 3:24 PM
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LowS,

what on earth are you babbling about?

Dave

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837077 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 3:33 PM
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"Romney brought a broken calculator and a shovel."

Fixed that for you. The numbers guy's numbers didn't work - especially leading up to the election. The shovel? For all the BS.

I suspect he's still shocked that he lost.

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Author: FoolYap Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837081 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 3:35 PM
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1. They lost for being to moderate
(McCain = moderate)
(Romney = moderate)


Dear GOP,

I agree. So, please nominate a "true" conservative in 2016.

Your friends, the Democratic Party and sane people everywhere

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837123 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 4:40 PM
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The urban/rural split between conservatives and progressivs is far more pronounced than the more generaliazed red-state/blue-state split. The GOP has a problem with density, put succinctly:

"There are certain things in which the physical nature of a city, the fact the people are piled on top of each other, requires some notion of the public good," [Princeton Historian Kevin Kruse] said. “Conservative ideology works beautifully in the suburbs, because it makes sense spatially."





I live in the 'burbs and there's no way I'm voting for a Republican. Ever.

Further, I feel that this election wouldn't have been nearly as close as it was if Obama had been 100% white instead of black. There is a lot of racial hatred and bigotry out there pushing votes against people's own best interests. But they can't see beyond their blind racial hatred.

I'm not saying this is true of all Republicans. Just some of them. The rest are suffering from blind greed. :)

AM

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837128 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 4:43 PM
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.I wouldn't want to spend time socially with either. Although I wouldn't mind getting stock tips from Romney.


You've got to be kidding me.

AM

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837130 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 4:45 PM
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I'm not saying this is true of all Republicans. Just some of them. The rest are suffering from blind greed. :)

AM
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which sounds more greedy:

Wanting to keep your own money

OR

Wanting the government to take other peoples money from them so they can give it to you.


Mark

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837133 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 4:49 PM
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I live in the 'burbs and there's no way I'm voting for a Republican. Ever.

Further, I feel that this election wouldn't have been nearly as close as it was if Obama had been 100% white instead of black. There is a lot of racial hatred and bigotry out there pushing votes against people's own best interests. But they can't see beyond their blind racial hatred.


There are bedrock conservatives in the cities and committed liberals in the countryside, of course - this is just speaking to trends. By and large, ideological and political affiliation has a strong correlation to geography and population density.

As for the latter, I think you're overestimating the degree to which racists would be willing to forgive a Democratic candidate for being on the "side" of black folks if they were themselves white. I think that's naive. I think that folks who suffer from the racial hatred and bigotry that you describe have almost as much (or more) loathing for epithet-lovers as they do for epithets. There's no way a Democratic candidate avoids being tagged as an epithet-lover, and thus losing the racist vote, no matter the color of their own skin personally.

Albaby

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837135 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 4:50 PM
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Which sounds more greedy:

Wanting to keep your own money

OR

Wanting the government to take other peoples money from them so they can give it to you.


Mark
___________________

But is is not for Her! It is for other people, if She happens to get something from it, well couldn't help that. IN fact it was for the children, yea and grandma

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Author: FoolishWaldo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837144 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:14 PM
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1. They lost for being to moderate
(McCain = moderate)
(Romney = moderate)

2. They lost because they tell people you have to work for things, while the other party tells them they don't have to.


Actually they lost because they don't know the difference between "to" and "too," probably also "two."

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837147 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:23 PM
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Actually they lost because they don't know the difference between "to" and "too," probably also "two."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
And you lose for correcting grammar/pointing out typos in a chatroom.

Mark

PS eagerly awaiting response explaining how you can't start sentences with 'and'

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Author: FoolishWaldo Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837149 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:33 PM
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Actually they lost because they don't know the difference between "to" and "too," probably also "two."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
And you lose for correcting grammar/pointing out typos in a chatroom.

Mark

PS eagerly awaiting response explaining how you can't start sentences with 'and'


You're so sad.

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837151 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:34 PM
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"Wanting the government to take other peoples money from them so they can give it to you."

Did someone propose that?

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837153 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:36 PM
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Actually they lost because they don't know the difference between "to" and "too," probably also "two."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
And you lose for correcting grammar/pointing out typos in a chatroom.

Mark

PS eagerly awaiting response explaining how you can't start sentences with 'and'


You're so sad.
____________________

Oh my Gawd, a contraction, you've done it now, my fifth grade teacher would have a melt down, how dare you

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837154 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:39 PM
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"Wanting the government to take other peoples money from them so they can give it to you."
--
Did someone propose that?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. No one has proposed that. No one is a net contributor to the government and no one is a net recipient. Doesn't happen. The government doesn't exist. It is a myth.

Mark

PS "Rich folks paying a little bit more" is referring to the amount they pay for their children's water polo lessons.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837155 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:42 PM
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And you lose for correcting grammar/pointing out typos in a chatroom.

Mark

PS eagerly awaiting response explaining how you can't start sentences with 'and'
---

You're so sad.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
No. YOUR so sad........(waiting).........Oh crap I have to click 'Submit Message' before you provide proof-reading services. (laugh laugh laugh)

Mark

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Author: nigelwhalmsley Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837162 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:52 PM
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"Wanting the government to take other peoples money from them so they can give it to you."
--

Did someone propose that?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"No. No one has proposed that."

Thought so.

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Author: markand4504 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837165 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 5:57 PM
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"No. No one has proposed that."

Thought so.
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Is there a federal sarcasm up-take program? If so, enter.

Mark

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837171 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/15/2012 6:04 PM
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Of course, in almost any election, it is a truism (and something of a useless one) that the rason you lost is because more of the other guy's supporters showed up at the polls.

As many bloggers atttest, they would not necessarily be 'the other guys supporters.'

Lots of Republican and independent voters only voted for Obama because of Romneys stream of insults and 'let them eat cake' indifference.

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Author: Goofyhoofy Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837306 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/16/2012 9:36 AM
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When you lose an election by a few points (rather than a 1984/1996-style blowout), almost anything can be a meaningful proximate cause. I don't think that Ryan is delusional in noting that a more urban electorate (ie. one where turnout in the urban areas is higher than expected) hurt the GOP. Of course, in almost any election, it is a truism (and something of a useless one) that the rason you lost is because more of the other guy's supporters showed up at the polls. But Ryan's not wrong in observing that urban voters tend to be overwhelmingly Democratic.

The urban/rural split between conservatives and progressivs is far more pronounced than the more generaliazed red-state/blue-state split. The GOP has a problem with density, put succinctly:


Ryan is attributing his loss to a cause which bears only slight correlation to the actual reason. He lost his hometown of Janesville. Is that "urban"? He lost his home state. Is that what you'd call an urban state? Romney lost Massachusetts, which regularly installs Republicans in the Governor's mansion. They lost Florida. They lost Virginia. The almost lost North Carolina, fer cryin' out loud.

Ryan spoke true, but irrelevant words. He might as well have said "We lost because the sky was blue on Election Day."

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Author: eatenbybears Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837309 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/16/2012 9:45 AM
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Ryan spoke true, but irrelevant words. He might as well have said "We lost because the sky was blue on Election Day."

They lost because Romney opened his mouth to often, especially on hot button topics .... cant pit religious beliefs against public opinion.

Bears

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Author: albaby1 Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837312 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/16/2012 10:03 AM
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Ryan is attributing his loss to a cause which bears only slight correlation to the actual reason. He lost his hometown of Janesville. Is that "urban"? He lost his home state. Is that what you'd call an urban state? Romney lost Massachusetts, which regularly installs Republicans in the Governor's mansion. They lost Florida. They lost Virginia. The almost lost North Carolina, fer cryin' out loud.

The density of the state isn't really what's relevant here. All of the swing states have heavily urban areas and deeply rural areas. That was the whole point of the article that I linked to - looking at red or blue states doesn't tell you much, since political leanings more closely align to the geography of cities vs. rural areas. What can affect the outcome is how much the different areas turn out relative to each other.

Turnout was higher than they hoped for in urban areas of swing states. Here in Florida, turnout in the three urbanized southeastern counties (Dade, Broward, Palm Beach) and the more urban area surrounding Orlando (Orange County) was vastly higher than the GOP projected, so their expected running up the vote totals in less urban areas (southwest Florida and the panhandle) wasn't sufficient to carry the state. It is a very real fact that they lost Florida because urban voters - who are vastly more Democratic in political leanings - came out to vote in very high numbers, irrespective of whether you think Florida as a whole is "urban" or "rural.":

A similar dynamic played out in Wisconsin, where D's were better at turning out voters in urban areas surrounding Milwaukee and Madison than R's were better at turning out the rural areas. So too with Virginia, where heavy turnout in the urban areas in the northeast (near DC and Maryland) outweighed the more rural areas in the rest of the state. In North Carolina, Obama was able to get more turnout in Mecklenburg County (area surrounding Charlotte) than in 2008, which gave him a huge 100K voter suprlus to cover losses elsewhere in the state.

This occasional potshot at winning 'hometowns' is a little foolish. Ryan lost Janesville, but won the Congressional district that Janesville is in (hence, he was re-elected to Congress), but lost the state. And no one thought Romney would win Massachussetts, simply because Massachussetts is a deeply blue state and Romney is a Republican - that doesn't offer much insight into whether Romney is a good or bad candidate. A Democratic Presidential nominee from South Dakota would lose South Dakota - no matter what their skills - because the party is simply not going to campaign in South Dakota.

There are lots of reasons why the GOP lost the Presidential election - again, in a close race, many factors can be significant. But this is not a "sky is blue" statement - the urban/rural split in party and ideological affiliation is very real, and relative turnout is hugely important in state and federal races.

Albaby

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Author: kenm47 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837315 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/16/2012 10:08 AM
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They lost because the other guys got more votes.

Ken

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Author: AngelMay Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837342 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/16/2012 11:24 AM
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They lost because the other guys got more votes.

Ken

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They lost because America DOESN'T WANT THEM.

AM

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Author: rinjr715 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837607 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/16/2012 6:54 PM
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There is not one single reason the Pubs lost. When you lose that close of an election, you lose it for multiple reasons, because there are always multiple reasons you lose votes in an election in which millions of voters vote. The way to win close elections is to limit the number of times and the number of ways you lose votes to the lowest amount possible, and Obama did a hell of a lot better job of that than Romney did while Romney committed some highly publicized gaffes and had a record that he didn't do a good enough job of defending/explaining, meanwhile being far too much of a gentleman in his campaign tactics. Romney lost because he deserved to lose more than Obama did by virtue of a wimpy, low quality campaign. That campaign should have been easily winnable, and Romney butchered the job.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837615 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/16/2012 7:12 PM
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There is not one single reason the Pubs lost. When you lose that close of an election, you lose it for multiple reasons, because there are always multiple reasons you lose votes in an election in which millions of voters vote. The way to win close elections is to limit the number of times and the number of ways you lose votes to the lowest amount possible, and Obama did a hell of a lot better job of that than Romney did while Romney committed some highly publicized gaffes and had a record that he didn't do a good enough job of defending/explaining, meanwhile being far too much of a gentleman in his campaign tactics. Romney lost because he deserved to lose more than Obama did by virtue of a wimpy, low quality campaign. That campaign should have been easily winnable, and Romney butchered the job.
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I have given this some thought, it doesn't much matter so not too much.

But I do agree there are many factors and many individual factors each of which may have been enough to win the elections.

Romney obviously did do a botch job on getting elected, so far we agree

What I question is the why, and this is the part I actual gave a little thought to. Was it a matter of being too nice -- or was it a matter of a combination of misreading the polling data and wanting to position himself in a place where he could actually govern in a meaningful way?

My view is had he gone brutally negative he could have won. Obama had too much baggage to win a mud fight. So why did Romney not go that way? Well if you wanted a shot at governing as opposed to ruling, you had to start to heal the divide, Romney's team misreading the polls might have thought they had a chance to start the healing in the only place it would be meaningful -- when there was still something to gain. If you are willing to not be a complete creep then --- you are ready to work across the aisle. Could not have made that case better IMO

So was it nice, or was it tactical, and just flat out wrong?

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Author: rinjr715 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 1837956 of 1949420
Subject: Re: Delusional Date: 11/17/2012 11:43 PM
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If going brutally negative would have gotten Obama out of the White House, Romney should have done so. You cannot worry about governing till you get elected, and if being too nice got Romney beat, then it was the wrong thing to do. You're a lot better off having to mend fences than never having any fences to mend because you lost, and there is no depth that is too low to sink to in something as important as a presidential election.

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