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Author: tjscott0 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 753832  
Subject: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 11:37 AM
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Tea partiers kicked of off budget committee by GOP.
http://news.yahoo.com/two-conservative-republicans-booted-ho...

I imagine he is tired of fighting both democrats & spendy republicans.

He'll still have a platform to espouse his views. And will be associating with like minded people.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/271411-jim-demint-resigns...

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), a leading Senate conservative and founding member of the Senate Tea Party Caucus, will resign from office in January to become president of The Heritage Foundation.

DeMint, who frequently clashed with the Senate Republican leadership during his career over taxes, spending and political tactics, said he will continue to push his conservative vision from outside Congress.

DeMint's decision to leave the Senate after only eight years shocked Washington.
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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658549 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 12:28 PM
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“I’m leaving the Senate now, but I’m not leaving the fight. I’ve decided to join The Heritage Foundation at a time when the conservative movement needs strong leadership in the battle of ideas,” DeMint said in a statement.

Senator, with all due respect, the problem is not one of ideas, but the fact that we've been outflanked in the marketplace by the libs. We have been successfully painted as racist, homophobia, and whatevers by the other side.

We don't have their ground game. We've lost control of the schools, the media, and everything else, except our little enclave of talk radio and Fox News.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658550 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 12:37 PM
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Senator, with all due respect, the problem is not one of ideas, but the fact that we've been outflanked in the marketplace by the libs. We have been successfully painted as racist, homophobia, and whatevers by the other side.

We don't have their ground game. We've lost control of the schools, the media, and everything else, except our little enclave of talk radio and Fox News.
_________________________

Which is why being in the Senate does not do much

The best way to battle someone who holds too many of the lever of power, is and always will be. Blind obedience.

This is why I continue to advocate letting libs have their way. Not improving what they are trying to do, just saying what you want to do and why, but letting things go as libs see fit.

If there is any hope of folks seeing the truth of where we are headed it will be made clear faster in allowing libs to take 100 percent of credit for the results of implementing their ideas and ignoring those of conservatives.

Last thing we need is folks like Boehner trying to make things a little less bad, and getting credit for all that goes wrong.

do not without ideas. Running the House is great, pass every idea you have. Just do not participate, at all, in what the Dems put in place. If you have something to add, add it whole or not at all.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658551 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 12:40 PM
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If there is any hope of folks seeing the truth of where we are headed it will be made clear faster in allowing libs to take 100 percent of credit for the results of implementing their ideas and ignoring those of conservatives

I am not that optimistic. Socialism is not a new thng. It has been implemented in various forms the world over and its results are uniformily bad. Yet, mankind keeps returning to the same old failed ideology.

If libs could learn from mistakes, they wouldn't be libs.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658553 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 12:47 PM
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I am not that optimistic. Socialism is not a new thng. It has been implemented in various forms the world over and its results are uniformily bad. Yet, mankind keeps returning to the same old failed ideology.

If libs could learn from mistakes, they wouldn't be libs.
-_________________________

But it is never implemented piecemeal, with display of its' failure and a large enough to be heard opposition doing nothing but pointing out how it fails at each step along the way.

I am not worried about libs learning from their mistakes, but rather about others being convinced libs are in fact not wrong, because 'conservatives' are a part o everything bad that happens, they just do bad a little better -- like Bush's Medicare Part D -- do even you remember he did that because he wanted something less harmful done than what the Dems were advocating and thought he could head them off at the pass?

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658560 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 1:31 PM
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lowstudent wrote: This is why I continue to advocate letting libs have their way. Not improving what they are trying to do, just saying what you want to do and why, but letting things go as libs see fit. If there is any hope of folks seeing the truth of where we are headed it will be made clear faster in allowing libs to take 100 percent of credit for the results of implementing their ideas and ignoring those of conservatives.

One would think this may be a solution, but I don't know if--even as the rich become poor and the poor become poorer, as Thomas Peterffy explained during the campaign--that would help libruls to think clearly.

Clear and critical thinking is a skill that requires that one WANT to think clearly and critically. Here's a blog article about Peterffy's attempt to assist voters to think clearly and critically. Note the comments on the blog.

http://onconservatism.blogspot.com/2012/10/on-thomas-peterff...

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658562 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 1:44 PM
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One would think this may be a solution, but I don't know if--even as the rich become poor and the poor become poorer, as Thomas Peterffy explained during the campaign--that would help libruls to think clearly.
____________________________
As I said before, it is not about making liberals think clearly. It is about letting the large number of folks not looking to be forced to take a look at liberalism rather than just accept the fodder they are fed

when you are battling con men, you expose the con, you do not try to set the conmen straight.

Conservatives have gotten beaten and beaten badly because they refuse to acknowledge liberals are not people of good will. I do not even ask conservative to battle them, just to expose what they want and the results of that. What they do now, is try to limit the harm they do, and then claim liberals are just a little wrong. Every time they make things less bad, liberals lay the blame on them for liberal ideas being implemented.

THEY ARE BEING PLAYED, THE LIBS ARE CONMEN AND HAVE A PERFECT CON FOR SUCKERS WHO REFUSE TO ADMIT THEY HAVE BEEN WRONG FOR SO LONG.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658563 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 1:58 PM
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Conservatives have gotten beaten and beaten badly because they refuse to acknowledge liberals are not people of good will.

Not all of them. There's a reason why Jesus called us sheep... and he wasn't paying us a compliment either. Most people just go with the flow, which explains why people just conform to the norm because sticking out makes you unpopular.

The popular cultures rewards liberal rants by telling them how smart they are, socially aware, etc... and folks just like the approval.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658565 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 2:07 PM
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Not all of them. There's a reason why Jesus called us sheep... and he wasn't paying us a compliment either. Most people just go with the flow, which explains why people just conform to the norm because sticking out makes you unpopular.
_____________________________

Sorry Wolvie, I know you disagree, but all of them

It is one thing to go with the flow, it is another to know you are being lied to and perpetuating lies.

There is simply no way anyone claiming to be a lib does not actively know they were lied to on a number of occasions and still maintains their identity? That makes them not good people.

You can vote with the libs and not self identify as one, You can be a democrat and a good person, you can vote for Obama and be a good person

But being a liberal you are an active part of a credo that requires lying to maintain itself

There are a number of issues that would cause folks of good will to step away

Candy Crowley's active lying in the debate
Susan Rice's active lying regarding Benghazi
Harry Reid's active lying regarding Romney's tax returns
You want to take it back to the behaviour regarding Bush? The lies endorsed, accepted and repeated ? It went past disagreement to abject dishonesty.
Heck in almost all cases they have redefined Reagan as well as Carter

there is a required active component to being a liberal that does not ad can not coexist with being a person of good will

This ignore small political things like trashing Romney's wife and the unbelievable double standard one must not only accept but endorse and live by to be actively liberal

I can accept folks being wrong and being of good will. I can accept people being ill informed and being of good will. The above were outright and outrageous lies, and allowing them in any way takes you past a point where you can do it and be a good person.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658569 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 2:20 PM
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I know only one librul deeply: my son.

He has been brainwashed. He's a good guy but he's been brainwashed, pure and simple.

He really thinks liberalism is just making the playing field even and that the people "helped" by liberal policies have no other way to live decent lives.

Is enabling Democrats (by submitting alternative policies while voting present on librul policies) until they ruin the country a valid strategy? I don't know, because ruining the country will occur so imperceptably at first that the brainwashed won't even realize the country is being ruined.

In the meantime...

Own it: unemployment back above 8% (the new normal)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159104/unadjusted-unemployment-sh...

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Author: telegraph Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658571 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 2:25 PM
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"He really thinks liberalism is just making the playing field even and that the people "helped" by liberal policies have no other way to live decent lives."

Wait until that 'fairness' kicks in, and he sees more than half his paycheck going to pay for the welfare weenies, and they are living better than he is.


It's a slippery slope....like Atlas Shrugged..and as things get worse and worse,the libs confiscate more and more, take over companies 'for the social welfare'.....extort raises for 'workers' ......give themselves more benefits and freebies...till it all collapses and the producers simply stop producing (or at least here)......



t.

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658572 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 2:29 PM
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I can accept folks being wrong and being of good will. I can accept people being ill informed and being of good will. The above were outright and outrageous lies, and allowing them in any way takes you past a point where you can do it and be a good person.

We're talking about two different things. I'm not referring to the brain-dead rabble that inhabit these boards. I'm referring to those whose default setting is liberal becuase they just want to get along.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658577 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 2:55 PM
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We're talking about two different things. I'm not referring to the brain-dead rabble that inhabit these boards. I'm referring to those whose default setting is liberal becuase they just want to get along.
______________________________

Oh yes, I am talking politically liberal, not socially.

I am in NY, I find most folks to be of good will, and most vote the liberal agenda.

The folks who have no idea and blindly stumble along, they are all honestly 'in play'.

That's is why I argue so vehemently against the doomsday whoa all it lost scenario.

I think we need nothing more than a very bright light, and the ability to grab folks by the hair and prop their eyes open making them look at what liberalism is, not just see what liberals claim.

Folks do not want what is being done. They think there is no choice. It ain't so. But they have no idea of the choice they are making

those actively liberal are making that so. Some of them appear to be OK, say Rev Bill, but they are not, because they actively support stuff they know to be lies. That is essentially my point. And there are many Rev Bill's willing to know they are lying but who get something out of it, so are willing to sacrifice others for what they want.

I think many are willing to just get what they want or which accept which side is better for them, because both sides are equal. That is just not the truth, though what actively lying libs want all to believe, and again, being an active liar and a good person are mutually exclusive.

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Author: twopairfullhouse Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658582 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 3:40 PM
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If libs could learn from mistakes, they wouldn't be libs.

Truer words were never spoken.

Obama won an election on the premise of taking more stuff from some Americans to make sure he can keep giving stuff to other Americans. He ignored the fact that he's giving away stuff at a rate that will bankrupt the country; the only question is a matter of timing. The media, in his back pocket for the whole campaign, not only never asked him to explain how the numbers don't add up, but actively supported the suppression of the truth.

It's been quipped that 'He who robs from Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.' That is an accurate summary of the 2012 Presidential election, and just because it's simple doesn't mean it's not true.

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Author: twopairfullhouse Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658584 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 3:48 PM
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I do not even ask conservative to battle them, just to expose what they want and the results of that. What they do now, is try to limit the harm they do, and then claim liberals are just a little wrong. Every time they make things less bad, liberals lay the blame on them for liberal ideas being implemented.

That's all fine, well and good, but it's hard for conservatives to get the message out when the media is actively and unashamedly campaigning for the other side. Millions of people still watch CBS, ABC and NBC, and believe them to be relatively unbiased, when it's clear that they overwhelmingly support the liberal agenda. Obama will always be asked strawman questions, and portrayed as a success. Conservatives will always be portrayed as the b@stard offspring of Ebenezer Scrooge and the Grinch.

This same thinking is espoused every day in classrooms across America, from kindergarten through graduate school. That's not an insignificant burden to have to overcome. I'm not saying this to whine, but rather to point out that it's one thing to have a clear message, it's another thing entirely to get that message heard unadulterated, when many intermediaries are sure to warp it.

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Author: CCinOC Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658588 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 4:08 PM
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TPFH wrote: This same thinking is espoused every day in classrooms across America, from kindergarten through graduate school. That's not an insignificant burden to have to overcome. I'm not saying this to whine, but rather to point out that it's one thing to have a clear message, it's another thing entirely to get that message heard unadulterated, when many intermediaries are sure to warp it.

Conservatives need to go straight to the people by buying airtime to fully explain their views.


Yes, media outlets will broadcast Republican views as long as Republicans pay for it.

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658590 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 4:33 PM
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That's all fine, well and good, but it's hard for conservatives to get the message out when the media is actively and unashamedly campaigning for the other side. Millions of people still watch CBS, ABC and NBC, and believe them to be relatively unbiased, when it's clear that they overwhelmingly support the liberal agenda. Obama will always be asked strawman questions, and portrayed as a success. Conservatives will always be portrayed as the b@stard offspring of Ebenezer Scrooge and the Grinch.
__________________________________

That is all just fine.

That can and will be seen through, the heart of any good lie, is a kernal of truth

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Author: lowstudent Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658599 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 6:10 PM
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Conservatives need to go straight to the people by buying airtime to fully explain their views.


Yes, media outlets will broadcast Republican views as long as Republicans pay for it.
----------------------------

Actually, if you are going to take that track, then they need to buy more stations.

there need to be shows that lean conservative and constantly nail liberals as do many of the shows that are on TV now nail Republicans.

It is not just message, but a constant drumbeat from every angle, a few commercials frankly will not mean a thing.

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658651 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/6/2012 9:36 PM
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I do not even ask conservative to battle them, just to expose what they want and the results of that. What they do now, is try to limit the harm they do, and then claim liberals are just a little wrong. Every time they make things less bad, liberals lay the blame on them for liberal ideas being implemented.

That's all fine, well and good, but it's hard for conservatives to get the message out when the media is actively and unashamedly campaigning for the other side. Millions of people still watch CBS, ABC and NBC, and believe them to be relatively unbiased, when it's clear that they overwhelmingly support the liberal agenda. Obama will always be asked strawman questions, and portrayed as a success. Conservatives will always be portrayed as the b@stard offspring of Ebenezer Scrooge and the Grinch.


Maybe Jedi has the right idea but isn't going far enough.

Maybe we need a rich white guy to stand up and say he's been convinced. He signs up as a Democrat, schmoozes a bit, spreads some money around, gets himself elected to Congress or a governorship, and goes on the speaking/media tour.

And promotes the Democrat legislative agenda, down the line, as a way of
* Keeping the poor in line
* Fomenting race war
* Punishing anyone who dares to be productive
* Protecting genital mutilation in the third world and immigrant-dominated areas
* Enriching politicians, bureaucrats, and politically-connected bankers
* etc

EXPLICITLY.

These are the VIRTUES he lists.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658679 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 12:25 AM
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wvr Senator, with all due respect, the problem is not one of ideas, but the fact that we've been outflanked in the marketplace by the libs. We have been successfully painted as racist, homophobia, and whatevers by the other side.

We don't have their ground game. We've lost control of the schools, the media, and everything else, except our little enclave of talk radio and Fox News.


Because you are identified as social conservatives. Because you are on the wrong side of history and have been for at least 40 years.

Is it possible to let go of that? To embrace same-sex marriage because it encourages commitment? To accept that a little clump of human cells floating down a Fallopian tube or in a Petri dish is not a human being? To applaud undocumented workers for being eager to do hard work for low pay? To let your libertarian members lead you out of the hell of marijuana prohibition?

How does your current stand on these issues benefit the nation?

Republicans will not be a majority party again until they can ditch their current dead-end stands on social issues.

Peter

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Author: warrl Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658681 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 1:07 AM
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To applaud undocumented workers for being eager to do hard work for low pay?

I might applaud a criminal if their crime can plausibly contribute to the overthrow of tyranny.

Being an "undocumented worker" is not that sort of crime, so no applause from me.

Our immigration laws are really a mess, but the "undocumented worker" is not the person with standing to protest them and demand they be fixed. He's committing a crime for the purpose of enriching himself.

Nor should the fixing of those laws START with granting him amnesty; that should be the LAST step, if it happens at all.

(Narrow exception: those who were brought here as minor children by a parent or guardian, have lived here for an extended period as responsible adults and adhered to good behavior without being a burden on the taxpayer, and effectively have no home in their so-called home country. I'd give individuals who each meet all of these conditions amnesty earlier. Also I'd have a look at those who *through no fault of their own* have become severely disabled while in the US.)

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 1:20 AM
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PR wrote: To accept that a little clump of human cells floating down a Fallopian tube or in a Petri dish is not a human being.

Tell that to these survivors of abortion.

The Abortion Survivors Network
http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com

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Author: wolverine307 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658706 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 9:38 AM
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Because you are identified as social conservatives.

I get that you haven't read everything I have posted on this forum (or the CF) over the years, but I DO NOT identify myself with the majority of the issues typically associated with social conservatives. Regular readers of this forum know me to be mostly libertarian on social issues, except for a select few items.


Because you are on the wrong side of history and have been for at least 40 years.

Ronald Reagan says "Hi."


Is it possible to let go of that? To embrace same-sex marriage because it encourages commitment?

You are not referring to me on this issue. I do not care about it. I see both sides of the argument. The only dog I have in this fight is the fact that my sister is lesbian. I have no concern what consenting adults do behind closed doors. If the majority wants to legalize same-sex marriage, I'm fine with it.


To accept that a little clump of human cells floating down a Fallopian tube or in a Petri dish is not a human being?

Let me ask you this: if a person believes that human life begins at conception, what other stance is possible other than to equate abortion with murder?


To applaud undocumented workers for being eager to do hard work for low pay?

This could take another lengthy post all by itself. Let it be enough to say for now that this statement completely misstates my views on the matter.

To let your libertarian members lead you out of the hell of marijuana prohibition?

My previous postings on this forum about this matter indicate that I am in favor of decriminalization at a minimum. Wasting taxpayer money busting pot smokers is stupid. If those same pot smokers get behind the wheel, now we have a public safety issue that must be dealt with harshly.

Republicans will not be a majority party again until they can ditch their current dead-end stands on social issues.

Again, you have not read everything I have posted over the years on this topic, but I have long had an uneasy relationship with the neocons (jingoistic liberals) and the Religious Right. Politics makes for strange bedfellows.

I am becoming more and more convinced that I cannot peacefully coexist with such people any longer. I AM NOT a Republican. I side with them more often than not because the alternative (the Dems) is much, much worse.

However, since it is obvious to me now that the GOP is forever dominated by neocons and Country Club Republicans that offer up nothing but Dem Lite candidates, take my vote/support for granted, and blame us (I'm looking at you Bill Kristol) when their chosen candidate loses, I am a political free agent.

Ronald Reagan made me a Republican. Bush43 killed it for me. If Obama wasn't so off-the-charts terrible I never would have voted McCain and Romney.

While Bush43 did many things I applaud like wanting to privatize SS and banning stem cell research (it's not a function of the federal government to get involved with such things, if the states want to do it - fine), he did many things I abhor (NCLB and Part D expansion) that go totally against my beliefs as a limited government type.

Having said all of that I feel that the time is right for a new major political party that basically is the Libertarian Party. The majority of the social issues are actually the province of the states, as per the 10th Amendment, so they need not be national issues.

And don't get too smug either about the Dem Party. Look at what it happening right now in Rhode Island. One group of liberals (labor unions) are fighting other liberals (welfare types) over the shrinking government revenue pie.

Next up, labor unions versus the eco-whacks. The Dems are a diverse coalition of folks wanting freebies. Well, the cookie jar is empty.

And when the Hispanic libs start fighting the black libs over the economic scraps left to them by following liberal economic policies, the Dems are looking at a major realignment themselves.

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Author: PeterRabit Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658748 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 4:21 PM
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I get that you haven't read everything I have posted on this forum (or the CF) over the years, but I DO NOT identify myself with the majority of the issues typically associated with social conservatives.

Wolverine, my remarks were not directed at you personally. I do have the sense that you lean towards the libertarian side.

Again, you have not read everything I have posted over the years on this topic, but I have long had an uneasy relationship with the neocons (jingoistic liberals) and the Religious Right. Politics makes for strange bedfellows.

I would abandon the Democrats in a heart beat for a party which was socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Currently the two parties have a stranglehold on the election process. That will have to change first.

You should understand that I believe there are some things that government does very well. Insuring a minimum retirement income is one. Running a single-payer healthcare system is another.

What ever responsibilities government has at all levels, it must balance the books.

BTW, I can't support Libertarians in general because so many of them believe taxation is theft.

Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.


Peter

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Author: 2828 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658750 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 4:29 PM
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You should understand that I believe there are some things that government does very well.Insuring a minimum retirement income is one. Running a single-payer healthcare system is another.
--------------------------------------------------------
Social Security is broke, Medicare is broke, both have about 80 trillion in unfunded liabilities. In the UK, the model Obamacare was built on, "the crown jewel" patients are drinking out of vases and giving birth in supply closets the care is so bad.
--------------------------------------------------------
I would abandon the Democrats in a heart beat for a party which was socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Currently the two parties have a stranglehold on the election process. That will have to change first.
----------------------------------------------------------
Yada, yada, yada, if it wasn't for republicans war on women i'd be a republican. Yawn. If you're voting on social issues when we're in this bad of financial shape you'll be a democrat until you die, and any claims to the contrary insults the intelligence of everyone here.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 4:30 PM
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wvr Let me ask you this: if a person believes that human life begins at conception, what other stance is possible other than to equate abortion with murder?

They will convince me that they hold that belief when I see them picketing outside fertility clinics where frozen "human beings" are routinely discarded.

Peter

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Author: MadCapitalist Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658755 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 4:45 PM
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BTW, I can't support Libertarians in general because so many of them believe taxation is theft.

Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

Peter


He lived at a time when taxes were a small fraction of what they are now.

It's one thing to have to pay taxes in order to have a government to protect our rights. You can do that easily by paying less than 10% of GDP in combined federal, state, and local spending (like we did up until World War I). It's quite another to have a government that actively violates our rights and consumes nearly 40% of our GDP and *still* accumulates massive amounts of debt.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 5:09 PM
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PR wrote: Insuring a minimum retirement income is one.

Ensure. Ensuring a minimum retirement income is one.

The only way you can insure a retirement income is through insurance products designed for this purpose. And there are many of them. And they're better than Social Security. For obvious reasons.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 5:37 PM
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MC It's one thing to have to pay taxes in order to have a government to protect our rights. You can do that easily by paying less than 10% of GDP in combined federal, state, and local spending (like we did up until World War I). It's quite another to have a government that actively violates our rights and consumes nearly 40% of our GDP and *still* accumulates massive amounts of debt.

So if the government takes less than 10% of the national wealth, then it is not theft.

Check.

Peter

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 5:40 PM
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CC Ensure. Ensuring a minimum retirement income is one.

Noted. Thanks.

BTW, I favor a minimum government retirement payment which is the same for all persons. This is to keep people from starving or living on the sidewalk. It should not be confused with a private retirement plan.

Peter

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 6:58 PM
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MC It's one thing to have to pay taxes in order to have a government to protect our rights. You can do that easily by paying less than 10% of GDP in combined federal, state, and local spending (like we did up until World War I). It's quite another to have a government that actively violates our rights and consumes nearly 40% of our GDP and *still* accumulates massive amounts of debt.

So if the government takes less than 10% of the national wealth, then it is not theft.

Check.

Peter


GDP is not national wealth, not that I expect you to understand that based on your history of ignoring reality.

Also, that's not the point. The point is that I don't think we can ever get away without government to protect our rights, but this doesn't mean that anything goes and that government is justified in doing anything that a majority says it should do. We should limit taxation to that necessary to protect our rights, which is the proper function of government. Forcefully transferring property from one person to another is not a proper function of government. *Preventing* the forceful transfer of property from happening is a proper function of government.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 7:03 PM
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I can't believe all the libruls clamoring for the government to take their money. Unbelievable! Why don't they just voluntarily send a check to the Treasury?

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 7:04 PM
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PR wrote: BTW, I favor a minimum government retirement payment which is the same for all persons.

Where do you think a good place in the U.S. would be to develop old age retirement ghettos?

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 7:36 PM
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MC We should limit taxation to that necessary to protect our rights, which is the proper function of government. Forcefully transferring property from one person to another is not a proper function of government.

Either the government has the right to tax (forcefully transfer property from one person to the government) or it doesn't.

You can't have it both ways.

Now you may not like the way your taxes get spent, but unless you can convince Congress or the Supreme Court to see it your way, it doesn't matter what you think.

Peter

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 7:37 PM
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CC Why don't they just voluntarily send a check to the Treasury?

Because then we libs would not have the pleasure of hearing the cons scream.

Peter

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 8:45 PM
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MC We should limit taxation to that necessary to protect our rights, which is the proper function of government. Forcefully transferring property from one person to another is not a proper function of government.

Either the government has the right to tax (forcefully transfer property from one person to the government) or it doesn't.

You can't have it both ways.

Now you may not like the way your taxes get spent, but unless you can convince Congress or the Supreme Court to see it your way, it doesn't matter what you think.

Peter


You don't have any more power over how the government acts than I do, so by your logic, it doesn't matter what *you* think either.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 9:16 PM
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MC You don't have any more power over how the government acts than I do, so by your logic, it doesn't matter what *you* think either.

Oh, quite right.

But this discussion arises from the question of whether taxation is theft. I would be quite interested in a convincing argument for that principle. What I find amusing is the argument:

Taxation is theft when I don't agree with how the taxes get spent.

I think you can see that statement is a rather weak principle considering that every taxpayer will have a different opinion on how the taxes get spent.

Now this principle:

Taxation is theft when it is unconstitutional.

is certainly a reasonable assertion. Or more to the point:

Government spending is theft when it is unconstitutional.

Is the Social Security system unconstitutional?

http://www.ssa.gov/history/court.html

Perhaps. But the most recent SCOTUS decision on that question says not.

As far as the principle:

Government spending is theft when there is too much of it.

I think you can see that is fairly laughable as a fundamental principle.

What is my point? We can and should argue about what government, and the federal government in particular, should be doing. A question that can be decided by the voters and/or the courts. But to argue that certain activities which have been going on for decades are fundamentally wrong is silly.

Peter

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Author: crassfool Big funky green star, 20000 posts Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 658797 of 753832
Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:00 PM
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warrl says

Our immigration laws are really a mess, but the "undocumented worker" is not the person with standing to protest them and demand they be fixed. He's committing a crime for the purpose of enriching himself.

It is not a criminal offense to be an undocumented worker. Really, you should look it up and become legally literate about this issue.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:16 PM
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MadCapitalist says

>>Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.
>>-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

It's one thing to have to pay taxes in order to have a government to protect our rights. You can do that easily by paying less than 10% of GDP in combined federal, state, and local spending (like we did up until World War I). It's quite another to have a government that actively violates our rights and consumes nearly 40% of our GDP and *still* accumulates massive amounts of debt.

Trust me, the U.S. government in the 19th century actively violated rights at least as much as the present one, and probably more.

What's fascinating is that it's the amount of taxation that determines whether or not it is "theft." The red line is somewhere between 10% and 40%, apparently. My own taxes hover somewhere around 33%, so maybe I'm being robbed and maybe I'm not.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:22 PM
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wolverine says

Having said all of that I feel that the time is right for a new major political party that basically is the Libertarian Party. The majority of the social issues are actually the province of the states, as per the 10th Amendment, so they need not be national issues.

If you actually moved out of the GOP, you and I could have much better conversations. And if enough others like you moved in the libertarian direction, I would start having more respect for libertarians.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:35 PM
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Quoted: Government spending is theft when there is too much of it.

PR: I think you can see that is fairly laughable as a fundamental principle.


I guess you've forgotten the premise on which the United States of America was founded. While no one event can be pointed to as the actual cause of the revolution, the war began as a disagreement over the way in which Great Britain treated the colonies versus the way the colonies felt they should be treated. Americans felt they deserved all the rights of Englishmen. The British, on the other hand, felt that the colonies were created to be used in the way that best suited the crown and parliament. This conflict is embodied in one of the rallying cries of the American Revolution: "No taxation without representation!"

One interesting side note: It is estimated that only one-third of the colonists were in favor of rebellion. One-third continued to side with the British. The last third were neutral concerning the rebellion and break from Great Britain.

So take your "50.47% of the vote is a mandate" and stick it where the sun don't shine.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:38 PM
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crassfool wrote: It is not a criminal offense to be an undocumented worker.

If by "undocumented" you mean a person is in this country illegally, then...

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.

***

Indeed, I know someone whose husband is now in prison for being "undocumented."

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:40 PM
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crassfool wrote: If you actually moved out of the GOP, you and I could have much better conversations.

Keep an eye on Rand Paul. By the time he's ready to run for President, the country may be ready to hear his message.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:46 PM
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crassfool wrote: If you actually moved out of the GOP, you and I could have much better conversations.

Keep an eye on Rand Paul. By the time he's ready to run for President, the country may be ready to hear his message.
-----------------------------------------------------
Trust me, if wolva and you supported Rand Paul and he ran as a libertarian, crassfool and Peterrabit would find a reason he was "too extreme", like not supporting free contraception. I'd go so far as to say if Rand Paul ran against Bernie Sanders they'd support Bernie Sanders, no doubt whatsoever.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 10:58 PM
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You should understand that I believe there are some things that government does very well. Insuring a minimum retirement income is one. Running a single-payer healthcare system is another

Look around you. Everything the government touches turns to carp. Our current economic problems stem from government promises that can not be kept and from the government attempting to do for people what they should be doing for themselves.

Who cares more about you than you? Who knows what you need more than you? Government only has what it taken from others. Why should your neighbor be doing for you what you should be doing for yourself? What responsibilty does the individual have for his/her own well-being?

Leaving aside the philosophical side for a second, I find it hard to beleive that you can possibly believe that government is better able to do for others than they can do for themselves.

SS- bankrupt, Medicare - bankrupt, We're about to bail out the FHA, if you've been following the news. EVERYTHING they touch turns to garbage. It's on the news every day. It is not the free market that is failing us, it is government. How much more clear does it have to be?

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 11:11 PM
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wolverine wrote: We're about to bail out the FHA, if you've been following the news.

Well, to be fair, if FHA gets bailed out, it'll be the first time in its 78 year history.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/15/Report-Fe...

FHA is one of only two government entities--the post office being the other--that receives its revenues solely from the sale of what is essentially private mortgage insurance.

The agency's independent audit will be released Friday (November 15, 2012), conveniently after President Barack Obama's reelection, and it will show that the FHA does not have enough money to pay for expected losses of $1.1 trillion in loans the agency has guaranteed.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/7/2012 11:21 PM
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wvr SS- bankrupt,

It's not. In the worst case scenario (no sensible changes, no tax increases, etc.) after 20-30 years, SS will be able to pay out 75% of projected revenues.

Of course, we should make those sensible changes like raising the retirement age.

It is hard to have a discussion with people who believe the federal government can do no good. Fortunately I don't need to because only a small minority of voters believe this.

Peter

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 2:38 AM
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What I find amusing is the argument:

Taxation is theft when I don't agree with how the taxes get spent.


I find that amusing too, particularly when leftists complain about defense spending.

My position is much simpler: taxation is theft. It's morally and ethically wrong, period, end of discussion. It is pragmatically excusable only when it is evenly and predictably spread, used to prevent even greater theft, and kept to the minimum necessary to that purpose.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 7:40 AM
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You should understand that I believe there are some things that government does very well.Insuring a minimum retirement income is one. Running a single-payer healthcare system is another.
--------------------------------------------------------
Social Security is broke, Medicare is broke, both have about 80 trillion in unfunded liabilities. In the UK, the model Obamacare was built on, "the crown jewel" patients are drinking out of vases and giving birth in supply closets the care is so bad.
--------------------------------------------------------
I would abandon the Democrats in a heart beat for a party which was socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Currently the two parties have a stranglehold on the election process. That will have to change first.
----------------------------------------------------------
Yada, yada, yada, if it wasn't for republicans war on women i'd be a republican. Yawn. If you're voting on social issues when we're in this bad of financial shape you'll be a democrat until you die, and any claims to the contrary insults the intelligence of everyone here.
_________________________________________________________________

The inconsistency of what the clown you are speaking with says is awe inspiring

However, I can agree. If the government could be fiscally responsible while providing health care for everyone and a retirement for everyone I would be more pro big government.

This is a little like Tele saying if God came down every few weeks and balanced my checkbook and made regular deposits to my bank account I would believe in him, as long as he didn't expect any of that faith jazz.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 7:54 AM
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Trust me, if wolva and you supported Rand Paul and he ran as a libertarian, crassfool and Peterrabit would find a reason he was "too extreme", like not supporting free contraception. I'd go so far as to say if Rand Paul ran against Bernie Sanders they'd support Bernie Sanders, no doubt whatsoever.
______________________________________-

It does get tiresome to hear the dishonest try to act otherwise. But to be honest, Rand Paul used to be someone I could support then he bacame a radical.

How many times can you say the same utter garbage and believe you are honest? Then again, although I gave up reading all crass a while ago, the level of dishonesty that Peter maintains with himself is pretty awe inspiring.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 10:34 AM
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It is hard to have a discussion with people who believe the federal government can do no good.

Straw man. I said no such thing.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 12:06 PM
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wrl taxation is theft. It's morally and ethically wrong, period, end of discussion. It is pragmatically excusable only ...

Absolutely wrong (period, end of discussion) but OK when we continue the discussion...

LMFAO.

Peter

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 12:08 PM
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wvr Everything the government touches turns to carp

PR It is hard to have a discussion with people who believe the federal government can do no good.

wvr Straw man. I said no such thing.

Excuse me. I was making the assumption that "carp" is not a good thing.

Peter

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 12:58 PM
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It is hard to have a discussion with people who believe the federal government can do no good.

Straw man. I said no such thing.
__________________________

So you are just being argumentative.

you agree it is hard to have a good discussion with a strawman

However as a lib, he was not looking for a good discussion, he was looking to win an argument. it is really easy to win an argument against a strawman. Most importantly though as a lib, it is key to set up all arguments so you never, and i mean NEVER have to look at your own position.

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Subject: Re: DeMinty Sees Hand Writing on the Wall. Date: 12/8/2012 3:04 PM
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I am not that optimistic. Socialism is not a new thng. It has been implemented in various forms the world over and its results are uniformily bad. Yet, mankind keeps returning to the same old failed ideology.

I think you are wrong. The USA is the best example of success of socialism. If you call USA is not socialist country you are kidding yourself.

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