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Author: LorenCobb Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Top Recommended Fools Feste Award Nominee! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 445502  
Subject: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 1:16 PM
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"Desiring with Supreme Ardor" (Summis desiderantes affectibus) was the title of a papal bull issued by Pope Innocent VIII on this day in 1484. It dealt with the activity of witches, and gave explicit papal approval for the torture of women accused of witchcraft. Here is the heart of his message, in one gigantic sentence:

Many persons of both sexes, unmindful of their own salvation and straying from the Catholic Faith, have abandoned themselves to devils, incubi and succubi, and by their incantations, spells, conjurations, and other accursed charms and crafts, enormities and horrid offences, have slain infants yet in the mother's womb, as also the offspring of cattle, have blasted the produce of the earth, the grapes of the vine, the fruits of the trees, nay, men and women, beasts of burthen, herd-beasts, as well as animals of other kinds, vineyards, orchards, meadows, pasture-land, corn, wheat, and all other cereals; these wretches furthermore afflict and torment men and women, beasts of burthen, herd-beasts, as well as animals of other kinds, with terrible and piteous pains and sore diseases, both internal and external; they hinder men from performing the sexual act and women from conceiving, whence husbands cannot know their wives nor wives receive their husbands; over and above this, they blasphemously renounce that Faith which is theirs by the Sacrament of Baptism, and at the instigation of the Enemy of Mankind they do not shrink from committing and perpetrating the foulest abominations and filthiest excesses to the deadly peril of their own souls, whereby they outrage the Divine Majesty and are a cause of scandal and danger to very many [...] the abominations and enormities in question remain unpunished not without open danger to the souls of many and peril of eternal damnation.

Despite this papal stamp of approval, the top inquisitor for witchcraft (one Heinrich Kramer) found he could not torture and execute enough witches to rid Europe of its troubles. Local authorities kept getting in his way, annoyingly protecting individual women that he wanted to put to the rack, or burn at the stake.

In response, Kramer retired from his inquisitorial position and wrote his masterwork, The Hammer of Witches (in Latin: Malleus Maleficarum). This book was single-handedly responsible for the centuries-long return of the torture and persecution of innocent women on trumped-up charges of witchcraft. It was reprinted 29 times between 1487 and 1669, and is still in print in English today. I bought a copy while in college; my nauseated horror at the contents of that book was the primary cause for my conversion to atheism.

5 Dec 1484 was among the blackest days in the entire history of religion.

Loren
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Author: NailThatJello Big gold star, 5000 posts Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414325 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 3:09 PM
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"Desiring with Supreme Ardor" (Summis desiderantes affectibus) was the title of a papal bull issued by Pope Innocent VIII on this day in 1484... Despite this papal stamp of approval, Heinrich Kramer found he could not torture and execute enough witches to rid Europe of its troubles. Local authorities kept getting in his way, annoyingly protecting individual women that he wanted to put to the rack, or burn at the stake.

McCarthy against the Reds, Wallace against the Negroes, George Bush against the Muslims, Rick Perry against coyotes, children trying to fall asleep against the imaginary snake under the bed...

Read "Dragons of Eden" by Carl Sagan, and hear "Devils and Dust" by Bruce Springsteen. Fear's a powerful thing for the human brain.

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Author: goofnoff Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414330 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 4:50 PM
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I think Bill O'Reilly was seriously discussing exorcism a couple of nights ago.


Mankind is less superstitious then it was in the 15th and 16th century.

The fact that it is superstitious at all in the 21st century is apalling.

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Author: discurro Big gold star, 5000 posts 10+ Year Anniversary! Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414331 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 5:19 PM
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Mankind is less superstitious then it was in the 15th and 16th century.

The fact that it is superstitious at all in the 21st century is apalling.


I think it is bad luck to misuse 'then' and 'than'...and it is downright sacrilegious to misspell 'appalling'.

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Author: Adenovir Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414334 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 6:29 PM
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"Desiring with Supreme Ardor" (Summis desiderantes affectibus) was the title of a papal bull issued by Pope Innocent VIII on this day in 1484. It dealt with the activity of witches, and gave explicit papal approval for the torture of women accused of witchcraft.

Many parallels to the current "war on drugs". Can we put that behind us too?

Adenovir

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Author: namkato Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414339 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 9:22 PM
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5 Dec 1484 was among the blackest days in the entire history of religion.

Loren
=================================================

Your information pales in comparison to centuries of female genital mutilation and the punishment of stoning women for either real or imagined adultery which is still common practice in many cultures.

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414341 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 9:51 PM
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i>5 Dec 1484 was among the blackest days in the entire history of religion.

Yeah, it was horrible.

How is the current non-stop parade of muslim violence any less horrid?

...... It's sad but true that Muslims still subject men women and children to medieval horrors, endorsed by their communities and imams.... 529 years later.

Amputations for crimes, genital mutilation, flogging, stoning, beheading, acid attacks, suicide bombing of businesses, churches, public places, massive abuse of foreign workers,

529 years later.

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Author: MacNugget Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414342 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 10:22 PM
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How is the current non-stop parade of muslim violence any less horrid?

Did someone say it was?

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Author: alstroemeria Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Recommended Fools Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414343 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/5/2012 10:48 PM
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Yawn. Out of context, liberal Catholic-hating tripe.

Well then, do provide a context in which the torture of women accused of witchcraft is a good thing.

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Author: kenora Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414346 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 6:58 AM
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And don't forget - He's a loving God...

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Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414347 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 8:08 AM
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Josh:

Yawn. Out of context, liberal Catholic-hating tripe.

From OP:
<<< I bought a copy while in college; my nauseated horror at the contents of that book was the primary cause for my conversion to atheism.>>>



The fact that the inquisition happened at all undermines the core authority of the church, namely that it is the bride of Christ and that the pontiff is the vicar of Christ on earth. If these things were true (even in the 15th century), how then can we explain such murderous wickedness sponsored by the church?

The explanation typically given is that men are flawed and these atrocities were the actions of misguided men. Then this confirms that we cannot trust these men because they are susceptible to grievous error. Then on what basis am I to have a faith in this church or in god? The only evidence presented is the testimony of such men. God himself is silent and absent. If ordained men can be so profoundly misguided about witches, what else might they be misguided about? How are we to accept anything that they proclaim? Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits, a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit. What does this say about the catholic church?

This is the reason for my atheism, that men clearly cannot be trusted and independent of them there is no evidence of a god. Let's not also forget that the inquisition is not an isolated incident, history is replete with horrors committed in the name of religion.

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Author: 10talents Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414350 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 10:36 AM
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Well then, do provide a context in which the torture of women accused of witchcraft is a good thing.

That's easy. When the Catholic Church does it. Plus, all the witches they killed were liberals anyway.

JoshRandall

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Author: n8larson Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Ticker Guide Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414357 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 12:11 PM
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Beridian,
Love, LOVE the way you phrased this response, and the concept is one I'd only thought around the edges of until I read what you wrote. Especially the beginning and the end of it... right on point. However, I think this piece (and this piece alone) as it applies to your argument is not a good one:

what else might they be misguided about? How are we to accept anything that they proclaim? ... a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit

Regardless of whether the last bit's true agriculturally, I completely disagree with this line of thinking as applied to people. The use of "what else might they be misguided about?" might seem to apply specifically for Catholics as it relates the crusades/witchcraft to the question of whether a supreme being exists at all, but stated as it is (as a generalization) I think it's drastically irresponsible. I see it used in political smear ads by both sides every two years. In fact, I'd contend that if this were the reasoning, then the simple idea that nobody's perfect would have to mean that nobody can ever be trusted about anything. After all, if <insert trusted scientist here> was wrong about what time the bus was going to arrive this morning, "what else could they be wrong about?" It's weak, improper, and out of place.

I appreciate the overall idea that men cannot be trusted on the question of the existence of a god, but being wrong about any specific things, even big things, does not by any means render anyone untrustworthy in all things.

-n8 (sadly, separated from the wagon a little bit today)

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Author: sofaking6 Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414358 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 12:17 PM
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Amputations for crimes, genital mutilation, flogging, stoning, beheading, acid attacks, suicide bombing of businesses, churches, public places, massive abuse of foreign workers,

We do most of these same things in the name of nationalism.

6

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Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414365 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 12:57 PM
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I appreciate the overall idea that men cannot be trusted on the question of the existence of a god, but being wrong about any specific things, even big things, does not by any means render anyone untrustworthy in all things.

I share your concern. Very few things are black and white, there are infinite shades of grey. I also hate it when this logic is applied to politics, for example the old "we tried welfare reform public transit, clean energy, (whatever) before and it failed".

But in the context of religion, it is a valid argument because the religious figure head claims to be divinely led and inspired. To paraphrase the process is something like this:

Religious Leader: Follow my doctrine because I have been sent by god!

Prospective indoctrinee: How do I know you are not just making this stuff up?

Religious Leader: Because god said it and he told me to tell you, and god cannot lie! And we have all these old books written by people like me who were also led by god so they cannot lie, therefore what I say is true!

Prospective indoctrinee: Then how come you excommunicated Galileo for saying the earth revolves around the sun, when clearly this has been shown to be true?

Religious Leader: Well, um, that was some other guy, and he was messed up and was not following god's will.

Prospective indoctrinee: But that other guy said he was led by god just like you, so if he was messed up how can I be sure you are not messed up?


Also I like to quote scripture as much as possible when I try to show religious folk how messed up their beliefs are. I do not believe in a divine Jesus, I also know that agriculturally speaking a tree can bear good and bad fruit. The whole thing comes down to the claim of having a divine right and being infallible. When you make such a claim, as does the catholic church, you are setting a pretty high standard. If you claim god is your foundation, and you are full of crap, then either god is full of crap, doesn't exits, or you are a liar.

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Author: PSUEngineer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414376 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 4:07 PM
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If ordained men can be so profoundly misguided about witches, what else might they be misguided about?

The Bible?

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Author: FoolishVintner Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414378 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 6:59 PM
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How is the current non-stop parade of muslim violence any less horrid?

Gotta love the tu quoque argument: "The history of the Christian church isn't riddled with violence, corruption, hatred, misogyny, and opposition to scientific advancement...because Islam is too!"

A pox on both their houses.

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Author: FoolishVintner Three stars, 500 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414379 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/6/2012 7:09 PM
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...being wrong about any specific things, even big things, does not by any means render anyone untrustworthy in all things.

Perhaps not, but it certainly renders the Catholic church untrustworthy in regards to its own claims of being inerrant in its teachings. And when their own pope issues such a callous, hateful, and frankly stupid plee for violence against women, it does render the claim that the pope is the vicar of Christ on Earth to be untrustworthy, to put it mildly. Add this to the papal bulls that encouraged the taking of slaves (Dum diversas and Romanus Pontifex, for starters), the Crusades, the use of torture, and at some point the evidence is just overwhelming. The pope ain't the vicar of Christ, and the Catholic church is just as evil and as fallible as its members, if not moreso.

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Author: sandyleelee Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414383 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/7/2012 12:20 AM
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Amputations for crimes, genital mutilation, flogging, stoning, beheading, acid attacks, suicide bombing of businesses, churches, public places, massive abuse of foreign workers,

And in many Christian communities in Africa, genital mutilation is still practiced.

Many of the violent practices in modern day Islam are actually more cultural than religious, though religion informs their culture in the same way that religion informs the culture of many areas of modern America. There are millions of Christians in the U.S. who are perfectly comfortable with the murder of abortion providers. And there are many Christians in America who would be perfectly comfortable with the murder of atheist (not to mention American Muslims), were it not actually against the law.

Religion and culture inform one another, with ignorance as their catalyst.

SLL

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Author: cevera1 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414385 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/7/2012 9:25 AM
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Many of the violent practices in modern day Islam are actually more cultural than religious, though religion informs their culture in the same way that religion informs the culture of many areas of modern America.

Sandy,

When I first starting reading this board you made a statement that I have never forgotten - and it is uncanny how accurate it has been in my own experience. In essence, you stated that one could infer the beliefs, insecurities, values and actions of a person by the type of 'God' or 'Deity' that they worship. Authoritarian? Loving? Hateful? One projects their beliefs to the supernatural. One picks and chooses from Religious texts based on preconceptions.

Just wanted to throw that out there........

cliff

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Author: dlbuffy Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414387 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/7/2012 9:37 AM
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If ordained men can be so profoundly misguided about witches, what else might they be misguided about?

The Bible?


Haven't seen anyone mention that the Catholics believe that the Pope is ACTUALLY in communication with God. As in he is the one person holy enough to converse with the Almighty and then he tells the ordained what to do.
So, this witches thing can only come from He in Heaven if it came from the mouth of a Pope.

Just sayin' ya'll.

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Author: Beridian Big red star, 1000 posts Top Recommended Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414388 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/7/2012 9:57 AM
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Haven't seen anyone mention that the Catholics believe that the Pope is ACTUALLY in communication with God. As in he is the one person holy enough to converse with the Almighty and then he tells the ordained what to do.
So, this witches thing can only come from He in Heaven if it came from the mouth of a Pope.



Along the same lines, and so far as we can tell, the supreme sky captain never lifted a finger to stop his anointed minions from executing their sadistic mayhem or to protect the innocent suffering torture at their hands.

Further evidence that there is no god, or certainly not one as described by the catholic church.

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Author: sandyleelee Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414392 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/7/2012 11:17 AM
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Sandy,

When I first starting reading this board you made a statement that I have never forgotten - and it is uncanny how accurate it has been in my own experience. In essence, you stated that one could infer the beliefs, insecurities, values and actions of a person by the type of 'God' or 'Deity' that they worship. Authoritarian? Loving? Hateful? One projects their beliefs to the supernatural. One picks and chooses from Religious texts based on preconceptions.

Just wanted to throw that out there........


Cliff,

Thanks for the compliment of remembering something I said so long ago.

I don't think my observation was particularly novel or original, but I think it's true. Much of what we are is a feature of what we've been taught from childhood. It takes effort to go beyond that, and most people don't put in that effort -- or else have little opportunity to do so. As a consequence, their "spiritual" lives reflect their personal and cultural biases as much as, if not more than, any other of their behaviors and attitudes.

Mankind often congratulates itself on being curious and creative, but I think that the greater proportion of human beings either lack the will or the opportunity to exercise those traits. And I think, as well, that curiosity and creativity are as easily turned into vices as into virtues. Hence, superstition as a creative -- if lazy -- construct and curiosity as a temptation to grasp at the first plausible explanation.

Progress is generally achieved by remarkable individuals, rather than by the masses -- again, either because of lack of effort or opportunity on the part of the majority of people. In the struggle for survival, it's difficult to find the time, energy and resources to enable curiosity and creativity to lead to truth. More often, they lead back to what people already have been taught to believe. By very short roads, indeed. And on wheels invented by others.

SLL

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Author: sano Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 414418 of 445502
Subject: Re: Desiring with Supreme Ardor Date: 12/7/2012 5:17 PM
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Many of the violent practices in modern day Islam are actually more cultural than religious, though religion informs their culture

Whether you want to blame culture, religion, or some combo of the 2, the deeds are horrendous, current, and widespread.

Witch-burning, not so much. Come to think of it, I can't recall any wiccans complaining of mistreatment by Christians during my lifetime.

There are millions of Christians in the U.S. who are perfectly comfortable with the murder of abortion providers.

They're pretty lazy about doin' it. Incidents are kinda sparse, wouldn't you say. Muslims don't seem to mind the "were it not actually against the law" issue. Courage of convictions?

Witches, wives, the folllowing link takes a look at honor killing considering cultural and religious influences.

http://www.meforum.org/3287/hindu-muslim-honor-killings

"Over the last few years, however, the media has published a flurry of articles about Hindu honor killings in India, the only non-Muslim-majority country where these murders are still rampant.[2] Apologists for Muslim culture and civilization rushed to herald the upsurge in Hindu (and Sikh) honor killings as evidence that the practice is "a universal problem, not an Islamic issue."[3]

While India is indeed a striking exception to Islam's near monopoly on contemporary honor killings, the following preliminary statistical survey shows Hindu honor killings in India to be different in form and commission from those of Muslims in neighboring Pakistan. Though no less gruesome, the Hindu honor killings seem largely confined to the north of India and are perpetuated by sociocultural factors largely specific to India. The millions of Indian Hindus who have immigrated to the West do not bring the practice along with them.


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