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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 308881  
Subject: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 3:38 PM
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Hello all,

Those of you who have been around for a while may remember me on this board. I paid off about 26K in credit card debt between 2002 and 2005. I'm back because....I'm going to be doing it again to the tune of 34K.

Here are the numbers: (Debts are listed in current snowball order)

Debt Rate Min Pymt 4/30/07 Balance
BOA MC 18.99% $15 $124.11
Commerce 16.50% $15 $550.32
Discover #1 20.99% $54 $2823.03
Discover #2 17.24% $100 $4774.90
Chase 1.99%* $50 $2530.93
ATT #1 5.99% $91 $6118.40
ATT #2 5.99% $113 $7564.74
Amex 3.99% $196 $9781.93
===============================================
8.14% $634 $34,298.36
(blended)


Insert Foolish Gasps here

Now, before you all have heart attacks, I did NOT run up 34K in debt over the past 2 years. I am embarking on another debt payoff because I recently got married and my DH came with a wad of credit card debt. There is some of the debt that I ran up (around $5500), and the rest (about $28,800) was incurred by DH over a few years. The main contributors to the $5500 I incurred were medical bills from a surgery I had last fall (I BT'd this part to a 1.99% card) and some wedding/honeymoon expenses. My DF's bills are primarily from honeymoon, a significant amount of medical bills, and general LAHM of a couple of years ago.

The good news is....we have BOTH been discussing budgeting, money, debt paydown, and so forth extensively for quite some time - in the abstract for months and in detail for weeks. We have drafted a budget and we have collected ALL of our credit card bills and documented balances, min payments, etc so we could formulate our snowball order. We also have opened our joint checking account and spent time the past couple of days preparing direct deposit changes for our paychecks and moving our joint money (as opposed to what will be our personal allowance) into that account. We are TOTALLY set to pay bills out of the joint account starting with the next paycheck that comes in on 5/7.

The even better news is....we are both on board with the fact that this is OUR debt and OUR money will pay the debt. In all of our discussions, the person who ran up the debt has barely entered the conversation. We are running are finances almost entirely as a JOINT operation, with each of us having some funny money that we are not accountable for. While we don't have much of a track record of executing on our joint plan since we have only been married 9 days, we are both understand what the plan is which is more than a lot of folks can say.

There are some significant challenges that we will be dealing with. For starters, we have a house to prep for sale since both of us owned homes at the time we got engaged. The market is cooling off, but fortunately other than some VERY minor repairs, some painting and the mother of all housecleaning jobs, my house should not require much work prior to the sale. Once the house is unloaded, we will be looking at $1200 in positive cashflow per month which will be a great help in our paydown.

Our other challenge is that there are several parts of our budget that are a big, fat guess. We are going to have to watch them carefully to see if we are planning on the right amount. The biggest areas we just aren't sure about is food - both eaten at home at eaten away from home. We picked a number for those areas that was larger than we remember spending lately, and will see how it goes. We are hoping to be able to trim back on that area a good bit.

At this point, I can't say that we are a well oiled machine since we just build the machine, but we at least know what CC debts we are up against and have balanced the budget on paper. All we can do now is work it...and do the best we can while tweaking things to improve our performance in the financial front.

Hope everyone is doing great, and I am looking forward to having my Foolish friends help us out as we pay off this wad of debt!

d

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Author: Patzer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252400 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 3:49 PM
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I am looking forward to having my Foolish friends help us out as we pay off this wad of debt!

I don't think you need all that much help; you've been there, and you know how to do that. Of course, the board will be delighted to see your weekly or bi-weekly updates!

Patzer

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Author: 6Bitsadollar Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252401 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 3:59 PM
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Well, I wasn't here when you paid off the $26k, but I think you have a good plan for attacking this. It looks like the first two cards you list can be paid off quite quickly which is good as they have high rates. Will you be able to BT the two Discover cards? I just shredded an offer from Citi for 3.99%

Fool on!
Molly--who congratulates you on your marriage

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Author: DEGbookworm Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252402 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 4:09 PM
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Congratulations on your marriage, and on being so on top of the financial changes that come along with that. It sounds like you are on the right path and well equipped to deal with any adjustments that need to be made along the way.

Keep us posted.

DEG

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Author: Fuskie Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Ticker Guide SC1 Red Winner of the 2010 Rule Breakers Challenge Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252404 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 4:54 PM
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A wife loves to make a project out of her husband, or so I am told with tongue in cheek, but let me make a suggestion. Have DH post here instead. Otherwise, he may miss out on the benefits you derived from the board. Even though much of the debt is from wedding and medical bills, he will not really learn the lessons you have learned as well if you just dictate to him what he should do. Instead make him an active partner in the board discussions so that he can soon be as Foolish as you.

Fuskie
Who has to remember to pay off his True Earnings promotional balance by Wednesday...

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252406 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 5:07 PM
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<<The even better news is....we are both on board with the fact that this is OUR debt and OUR money will pay the debt. In all of our discussions, the person who ran up the debt has barely entered the conversation.>>



You are entitled to do as you wish, so the following should be considered general editorial content, not a crticism of what you are choosing to do.


Personally, I consider it really rude and bad behavior to bring a large dowery of debt into a marriage. The idea that a wife should bring a large amount of CASH into a marriage is considered hopelessly retro, but few people seem to blink at the idea of bringing a dowery of debt into a marriage.

And the idea that such debt immedietely becomes the joint property of both to pay off is also an obnoxious idea. Strictly speaking, a person who brings assets like stocks and bonds into a marriage retains their title to such property ----at a minimum, debt should be recorded as the property of the person bringing it into the marriage, and they should keep "title" to the debt themselves.


If more people discovered their debting made them unmarriageable and that they would have to pay it off before getting married, perhaps people would think more before running up the credit cards.


This view would tend not to apply to assets like a house purchased with a mortgage or a marketable degree paid for with student loans and such.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252413 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 10:33 PM
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I am looking forward to having my Foolish friends help us out as we pay off this wad of debt!

I don't think you need all that much help; you've been there, and you know how to do that. Of course, the board will be delighted to see your weekly or bi-weekly updates!

Patzer


Hi Patzer!

Thanks for your kind words. We know that we know how to get out of this debt, but that doesn't mean we don't need some support and "attaboys" along the way. Both of us are a bit spendy by nature, and we are having to clamp way back on some types of spending quickly to work on this debt so it's going to be an adjustment.

For what it's worth....

Today we did NOT spend a single solitary cent on food away from home. This is a big area for us to work on, since we both work outside the home. This was my last day of my wedding/honeymoon vacation and it would have been very easy for us to say "let's go out to lunch" or "Let's grab thai for dinner". Instead we COOKED up a storm and ate very well on the groceries we bought a couple of days ago.

d

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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252414 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 10:35 PM
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Well, I wasn't here when you paid off the $26k, but I think you have a good plan for attacking this. It looks like the first two cards you list can be paid off quite quickly which is good as they have high rates. Will you be able to BT the two Discover cards? I just shredded an offer from Citi for 3.99%

Fool on!
Molly--who congratulates you on your marriage


Thanks for your support, Molly!

I am hoping that we can pay off the first two cards by the middle of the month...we should be able to but I am waiting until I see how the bills and paychecks line out before I say for sure. We are also having dishwasher issues and may end up having to figure out how to get a replacement. I'm voting for the scratch-and-dent route if we need to buy another one.

d


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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252415 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 10:38 PM
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A wife loves to make a project out of her husband, or so I am told with tongue in cheek, but let me make a suggestion. Have DH post here instead. Otherwise, he may miss out on the benefits you derived from the board. Even though much of the debt is from wedding and medical bills, he will not really learn the lessons you have learned as well if you just dictate to him what he should do. Instead make him an active partner in the board discussions so that he can soon be as Foolish as you.

Fuskie,

Interesting suggestion. I will see if DH is interested in posting....he may not be.

Funnily enough, he actually knows more than some TMF folks might want to give him credit for about digging out of a CC hole - we have discussed it extensively and he has contributed to the plan - not just gone with what I've said. We actually traded the snowball order a bit from what I originally thought in order to meet a couple of objectives he raised...and with very sound reason.

Thanks!
d


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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252416 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 10:41 PM
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Well, I wasn't here when you paid off the $26k, but I think you have a good plan for attacking this. It looks like the first two cards you list can be paid off quite quickly which is good as they have high rates. Will you be able to BT the two Discover cards? I just shredded an offer from Citi for 3.99%

Molly, I forgot to address one of your questions. Regarding the discover cards, we may BT one or more of them, but first we're going to try and see if we can get them to lower the rates. We do NOT want to open any more lines of credit unless we just absolutely have to. In going through all of our finances we discovered that we have - wait for it - 169K in available credit between all of our credit cards (we have a few empty ones). The hope is that we can work BTs on our existing lines of credit.

So far we haven't found any BT's that are compelling - the current ones on our accounts are 3% no-cap on fees and only 5 or so months of low rate. Not good enough to juggle around just yet.





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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252417 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 10:46 PM
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You are entitled to do as you wish, so the following should be considered general editorial content, not a crticism of what you are choosing to do.

Personally, I consider it really rude and bad behavior to bring a large dowery of debt into a marriage. The idea that a wife should bring a large amount of CASH into a marriage is considered hopelessly retro, but few people seem to blink at the idea of bringing a dowery of debt into a marriage.

And the idea that such debt immedietely becomes the joint property of both to pay off is also an obnoxious idea. Strictly speaking, a person who brings assets like stocks and bonds into a marriage retains their title to such property ----at a minimum, debt should be recorded as the property of the person bringing it into the marriage, and they should keep "title" to the debt themselves.

If more people discovered their debting made them unmarriageable and that they would have to pay it off before getting married, perhaps people would think more before running up the credit cards.


SP, you may be surprised to hear this but I can understand where your POV comes from. This is something that I thought a lot about during my dating period and engagement to DF. Were it not for the fact that DF is on board with paying off debt and we agree on most other principles of wealth building and financial management it is possible I would not have married him - or that I would have waited until things were paid down. It does suck in many ways to have to go through this again - but I know how to it from prior experience and at least the first draft of the plan is in place and supported by both of us so I feel OK about my decision.

I once dated a guy who was in LESS debt than DF and would likely not have married him. Despite the fact that he had less debt, he didn't understand that it was important to pay it off and continued to spend and juggle just to make minimums and to this day (7 years after our romantic relationship ended) he is still in debt.


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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252420 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 4/30/2007 11:19 PM
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<<SP, you may be surprised to hear this but I can understand where your POV comes from. This is something that I thought a lot about during my dating period and engagement to DF.>>


Thanks for not biting my head off.


I seem to recall a thread from a few months ago which discussed women's reactions to men who didn't use deoderant. The reaction was decidedly negative, with many women saying they would say "No, thanks."


I would personally like to establish a norm that had a similar reaction to people who have significant amounts of debt without good reason, or perhaps regardless of the reason.


But we don't have such a norm now, and I hope you and your husband work make it work.



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: BklynBorn Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252423 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 1:34 AM
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DF....fact that DF is on board...in LESS debt than DF

yoo hoo!

DH

it takes some getting used to...

8-)

mazel tov.

BB

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Author: Ahote Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252424 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 2:34 AM
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Personally, I consider it really rude and bad behavior to bring a large dowery of debt into a marriage. The idea that a wife should bring a large amount of CASH into a marriage is considered hopelessly retro, but few people seem to blink at the idea of bringing a dowery of debt into a marriage.

And the idea that such debt immedietely becomes the joint property of both to pay off is also an obnoxious idea. Strictly speaking, a person who brings assets like stocks and bonds into a marriage retains their title to such property ----at a minimum, debt should be recorded as the property of the person bringing it into the marriage, and they should keep "title" to the debt themselves.


I don't really know what your life situation is, married, single or what, but being married is different to having a casual relationship. When I married my wife, she had about $40,000 in student loan debt and some credit card debt racked up. I didn't hesitate for a second in taking that on as "our" debt. We were getting married and that meant that in that moment, you commit to someone for life - with everything. It doesn't help a relationship if one of you has assets and a nest egg and the other is struggling with debt they incurred earlier in life.

Everyone learns their lessons in different ways and one of the things that changed my life was seeing this community here and getting a grasp of what debt meant. My wife was not so fortunate and took on debt as a student and incurred debts on a couple of credit cards later on. I cannot fault her for that - it's the way life is. I find it a little harsh to judge people in terms of "bad behaviour" and "obnoxious" when all they did was do what 80% of everyone around them was doing.

It is perhaps bad behaviour to bring in an enormous chunk of debt into any kind of relationship, business or private without disclosing it but when you get married, and disclose all your skeletons, you are basically fulfilling your part of the deal. Each person should know what they are getting into when they get married and if, as Diana evidently did, one does, then it is perfectly reasonable for anyone to bring anything into a relationship, debt or riches. It's actually a marriage of honesty and trust and you work together to deal with each person's issues. Saying it's bad behaviour to bring debt into a marriage is like saying it's bad behaviour to bring in diabetes. It's something one has and if one is up front about it I don't see an issue.

In German, the word for partner (as in wife or husband) is Lebensgefaehrte. It means "life traveller" and I find it, like most German words, singularly appropriate. When you travel life TOGETHER, you take on the other person's difficulties and share their easy moments. My wife will soon be getting a payout of a small inheritance that has been entangled in legal stuff for a few years and she wouldn't dream of socking it away for herself - it will go towards our future and building up our wealth.

As I said, honesty and trust.

I find it sad that you appear to have such a distanced, cold and business-like approach to relationships but then, it takes all sorts.



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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252440 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 10:23 AM
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Call me a bstard but I don't think I'd want to marry someone with a bunch of debt.

silencer

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252461 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 2:16 PM
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diana,
Congratulations on your marriage! I wish you and your husband a lifetime of happiness together!

That being said...and despite the fact that I seldom agree with Seattle Pioneer, on the subject of marriage <g>, I advise caution, in taking on your husband's debts.

I have seen too many bad things happen, in other people's relationships, to believe that true love always works out well, for an entire lifetime. I apologize, for sharing downer experiences, at what should be a perfectly happy time.

The point is, love your husband, but protect yourself. People are unpredictable.

I agree completely with the suggestion that your husband become an active member of the CCCD board.

It's hard to change anyone. It's particularly hard for a new wife to change her husband's ingrained habits, without seeming like a nag. It's hard to change a lifetime of living above one's means. Having a neutral community, such as the CCCD board, will take some of the pressure off you, to reinforce this message.

If you do NOT live in a community property state (most states are not community property), your income, debts, and assets can be titled separately. I advise you to set up a joint account, into which you will both contribute. Keep some of your own, individually titled accounts. When you help DH pay off his debts, keep track of your expenditures (set up a spreadsheet). Don't just mush everything together.

There are some who will say that it's horribly unromantic, and will risk the true love marriage of "life travelers" to protect your own finances. That may be true. I say that you can deeply love your husband, and still protect yourself. If he remains true to you, and time shows that he is a "giver," not a "taker," you will be very good to him. However, life is long. If he changes, make sure that he will not take your security with him. I have seen that happen, more than once.

Again, best wishes for a lifetime of happiness.

Wendy

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Author: WendyBG Big gold star, 5000 posts Top Favorite Fools Feste Award Winner! Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252465 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 2:30 PM
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<And the idea that such debt immedietely becomes the joint property of both to pay off is also an obnoxious idea. Strictly speaking, a person who brings assets like stocks and bonds into a marriage retains their title to such property ----at a minimum, debt should be recorded as the property of the person bringing it into the marriage, and they should keep "title" to the debt themselves. >

I agree with you, 100%.

<This view would tend not to apply to assets like a house purchased with a mortgage or a marketable degree paid for with student loans and such. >

That's true. However, many a woman has slaved, to pay her husband's way through college, medical or law school...only to see him dump her, once he has the degree. The husband graduates without debt, and the wife sees years of efforts drained, with no security for herself.

Wendy



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Author: Silencer2480 Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252473 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 4:07 PM
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It's hard to change anyone

Someone once said: A woman marries a man expecting him to change, and he doesn't. A man marries a woman expecting her not to change, and she does.

silencer

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Author: ROTJob Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252474 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 4:11 PM
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I seem to recall a thread from a few months ago which discussed women's reactions to men who didn't use deoderant. The reaction was decidedly negative, with many women saying they would say "No, thanks."

I would personally like to establish a norm that had a similar reaction to people who have significant amounts of debt without good reason, or perhaps regardless of the reason.



For once you and I are in complete agreement.


RJ

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Author: MaestroCindi Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252475 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 4:53 PM
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I didn't hesitate for a second in taking that on as "our" debt.

What if instead of $40K in debt she had had $40K in assets -- would you automatically assume it's "our" assets? What one accummulates, debt and assets, before getting married they have a choice whether or not to share it with their new spouse. Now if your spouse is willing to share their debt, and you're willing to take it on, that's a choice you're free to make. Personally, I have $18K in student loan debt and would never expect anyone to pay it off except myself. I decided to take it on to help my career, therefore I think I should work for at least as long as it would take to pay it off.

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Author: ROTJob Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252476 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 4:58 PM
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What if instead of $40K in debt she had had $40K in assets -- would you automatically assume it's "our" assets?


I think some sort of buy-in by the non-assetted spouse would be appropriate. But then since it all goes in the same bucket anyway, who cares?

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Author: dianakalt Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252479 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 6:50 PM
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Wendy, thanks for your post! Let me address a few things....

Congratulations on your marriage! I wish you and your husband a lifetime of happiness together!

Thanks!

That being said...and despite the fact that I seldom agree with Seattle Pioneer, on the subject of marriage <g>, I advise caution, in taking on your husband's debts.

I have seen too many bad things happen, in other people's relationships, to believe that true love always works out well, for an entire lifetime. I apologize, for sharing downer experiences, at what should be a perfectly happy time.

The point is, love your husband, but protect yourself. People are unpredictable.


I see from this and several other posts that I might not have been clear enough about our debt paydown project. Currently all of our assets and debts except a joint checking account are titled separately. This includes cars, credit cards, houses etc. The only thing we are talking about changing in the immediate future is the mortgage/deed to his house since that's the one we'll be living in. (Mine is going on the market in the next couple of months...as soon as we get it ready.) So, while joint money is going towards paying off CCs they are currently titled separately. Unless we determine that we need to BT one of his cards to one of my cards or vice versa, this is how it will stay.

I agree completely with the suggestion that your husband become an active member of the CCCD board.

It's hard to change anyone. It's particularly hard for a new wife to change her husband's ingrained habits, without seeming like a nag. It's hard to change a lifetime of living above one's means. Having a neutral community, such as the CCCD board, will take some of the pressure off you, to reinforce this message.


Noted. Like I said, I will ask him if he's interested and let him make the choice.

If you do NOT live in a community property state (most states are not community property), your income, debts, and assets can be titled separately. I advise you to set up a joint account, into which you will both contribute. Keep some of your own, individually titled accounts. When you help DH pay off his debts, keep track of your expenditures (set up a spreadsheet). Don't just mush everything together.


We are not in a community property state. At this time we have a joint checking account that our paychecks will go into and most household bills will be paid from, another joint account for our Freedom Fund, and each of has individual checking which is where our allowance/funny money will go.

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Author: Zvolen Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252480 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/1/2007 7:08 PM
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I initially was not going to get involved in this, but my emotions took over and I decided to express my opinion which is just that my own personal opinion.

First off, let me say congratulations on the marriage, I wish you both the best. I too just recently was married and the DW brought in some debt into the marriage, I did too as well but hers was much more significant. With that being said I wouldn't even begin to think that “her” debt is not our debt, when I married her I married everything about her, the preacher said now you are a joint venture not now you are a joint venture except your finances. I take the opportunity to help the DW learn about money and how to spend, not punish her because she didn't receive education about the subject.

In each marriage one person is better at certain things then the other, for obvious reason, to help the other. I can't imagine abandoning my wife as she struggles with debt. We have to pay OUR bills including debts of hers and mine with OUR income what she makes and what I make regardless of who makes more we each have equal say.

I would feel the same way if she brought substantial assests into the relationship, I would picture those as ours. If I loved my money more than I loved my wife I would have not gotten married. Everything in our household is OURS with our names and we each no what to do and how to do it since we have a plan that we do together.

I just don't see separating expenses/income between partners being an option, obviously it works for some people but I am not one of them.


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Author: johnmoni Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252501 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/2/2007 10:39 AM
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"I find it sad that you appear to have such a distanced, cold and business-like approach to relationships but then, it takes all sorts."

I don't think it is cold at all - my wife and I are a perfect fit, because neither brought any debt (other than a mortgage) into our marriage. I think it is a perfectly legitimate view, to not want to marry someone with "mega-debt." before I met my wife, I met and dated a number of women who had a cavalier attitude about financial planning, money management, etc. I knew from the first date that I could never marry them. I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

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Author: BirkChick One star, 50 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252509 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/2/2007 11:53 AM
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However, many a woman has slaved, to pay her husband's way through college, medical or law school...only to see him dump her, once he has the degree. The husband graduates without debt, and the wife sees years of efforts drained, with no security for herself.

Women aren't always the 'victims' -- the same can be said with the gender rolls reversed!

Women are entering medical school at higher rates than men nowadays and I'm sure that there are plenty of men out there supporting their wife's educational pursuits (my DH is soon to be one of them). I would say that women are just as likely to 'dump' their husbands after graduation as men are to dump their wives.

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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252514 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/2/2007 1:07 PM
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<<Women are entering medical school at higher rates than men nowadays and I'm sure that there are plenty of men out there supporting their wife's educational pursuits (my DH is soon to be one of them). I would say that women are just as likely to 'dump' their husbands after graduation as men are to dump their wives.
>>



I'm sure that we can all be cheered that women are acquiring equality in yet another area, being a rat!



Seattle Pioneer

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Author: NewPenny Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252518 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/2/2007 2:15 PM
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>> I'm sure that we can all be cheered that women are acquiring equality in yet another area, being a rat!

===


Now if we could just arrange for these rats to marry each other ...


Penny

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Author: Patzer Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252519 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/2/2007 2:17 PM
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>> I'm sure that we can all be cheered that women are acquiring equality in yet another area, being a rat!

===

Now if we could just arrange for these rats to marry each other ...


. . . their kids would all end up going into law or politics.

Patzer


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Author: bdgf06 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool CAPS All Star Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252546 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/3/2007 10:15 AM
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d,

Congrats on the new marraige, and the both of you for so willingly cooperating on your joint financial plans and goals so quickly and with conviction... I'm sure many couples take years or sometimes never get to that point and you got there in 10 days or less. I look forward to your super duper happy dance after the debt is gone.

bdgf06

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Author: foolazis Big red star, 1000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252553 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/3/2007 2:13 PM
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Now if we could just arrange for these rats to marry each other ..

.. their kids would all end up going into law or politics.


I think they are already there.

foolazis

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Author: vkg Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252576 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/4/2007 12:10 AM
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I hope all goes well. In a marriage, attempting to separate the finances of one spouse is rarely successful. You have made the commitment to marry, therefore, assuming the debt as a joint responsibility to be paid off is a reasonable. Assuing joint responsibility for paying off the debt does not mean that you need to transfer the debt to your name. If things don't work out, debt that preceded the marriage should remain in the responsible persons name.

Debra

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Author: mw5280 Two stars, 250 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252769 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/8/2007 11:21 AM
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I just want to add my two cents here on the issue of who has what in a marriage.

I believe as SP and others have stated, that debt should stay with the debtor if incurred before the marriage or without the knowledge of the spouse while in a marriage.

I am in my second (and final!) marriage. In my first marriage, my fiance and I decided to remove our debt before we tied the knot. At the time, I had about $3000 and he had prestigious business school loans of who knows how much, I can't remember the figure now (at least 30K) but within our 9 month engagement period, we both paid off that debt so we were without debt when we got married. He had a very nice b-school degree and made 6 figures at the age of 26 in 1992 and he lived without a car for several years in a small studio apartment, etc.,etc. to pay off his school loans. Very admirable. Sadly, I did not realize how admirable this was as I came from a background where I did not really know the value of money. I thought money was to spend.

Fast forward to now. Three years ago I married someone who came to the US from a socialist country. I had had a few years of on and off unemployment and was in complete denial of my financial situation, having been pretty well off before 2001. When I actually looked at my credit card debt (and a lot of that came from an overdraft account at my bank, it was just too easy, when I didn't have money, the bank just slipped it into my account, charging me a fee each time and a whopping 26% interest). One day after getting married, I sat down and added up my 8-10 credit cards and almost fell over. It was around $36,000. My new husband had no idea. He was starting over in a new country with 10 solid years of experience in his field, he had to start here making very little money. I was and am the main breadwinner.

The pain it has caused us is unbelievable. I had no idea it would matter so much to him. I know, I am spoiled, having been born and raised in the United States, a college education, things that I took for granted.

Where we are today, we have completely split our finances. DH is extremely good with money. He never had it so he values it highly. Our bank accounts are separate and he has started a 401K and has a nice chunk of change in the bank that he does not touch. I live paycheck to paycheck as I'm whittling away at what is now $30,000 of debt.

To me, this is not the picture of what I imagined marriage to be BUT I would not want him to pay even a penny toward the debt that I acquired before him. He also has a daughter and a mother that he helps to support.

I have also agreed to some sort of document that would express that in the event that anything should happen to me, he would not be liable to my debt. We haven't done that yet and I have equity in my house that would pay that off but I have agreed to do it.

The good news is that I think I am FINALLY learning the value of money.



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Author: SeattlePioneer Big funky green star, 20000 posts Top Favorite Fools Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 252771 of 308881
Subject: Re: dianakalt Starting Over Date: 5/8/2007 11:38 AM
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<<I believe as SP and others have stated, that debt should stay with the debtor if incurred before the marriage or without the knowledge of the spouse while in a marriage.
>>



<< One day after getting married, I sat down and added up my 8-10 credit cards and almost fell over. It was around $36,000. My new husband had no idea. He was starting over in a new country with 10 solid years of experience in his field, he had to start here making very little money. I was and am the main breadwinner.

The pain it has caused us is unbelievable. I had no idea it would matter so much to him. I know, I am spoiled, having been born and raised in the United States, a college education, things that I took for granted.

Where we are today, we have completely split our finances. DH is extremely good with money. He never had it so he values it highly. Our bank accounts are separate and he has started a 401K and has a nice chunk of change in the bank that he does not touch. I live paycheck to paycheck as I'm whittling away at what is now $30,000 of debt.
>>



Sorry to hear about how your finances have been wounding you.


I have to say that I think your effort to assume responsibility for paying off your own debt is loving, responsible and mature.



Good luck. It sounds like you will be able to deal with this problem over time.




Seattle Pioneer

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