Message Font: Serif | Sans-Serif
 
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (23) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Author: FULLERKZ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: of 195750  
Subject: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 5/31/2002 6:23 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
I thought this highly offensive and perhaps suprised to see so many rec's. From the PA board with a post of the same title.





http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=17294885


Is it me or something wrong with this picture.



Print the post Back To Top
Author: mapletree3 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82429 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 5/31/2002 6:35 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
I recced it. Are you sure you are pointing to the right post?

-mapletree

Print the post Back To Top
Author: FULLERKZ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82431 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 5/31/2002 7:33 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
I am pretty sure. I like the part about not incriminating most for the actions of a few. This needs repeating. I suppose he was being cynical, still I would never state "Christians killed 6 million Jews" because it is blatantly false and I doubt many Jews would rec it. Must be a sensitivity thing.

Ironically Hitler patterned the Brown Shirts which evolved into the horrendous SS after a Jesuit order. Only in form mind you. The association of Christianity despite some sympathizers amongst them is so far removed from the faith and serves to divide rather than unite.

Why is this critical? Because there is so much misinformation amongs Jews less enlightened. Many have no concept of the precepts of Christianity.

regards fuller

Print the post Back To Top
Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82432 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 5/31/2002 9:51 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
still I would never state "Christians killed 6 million Jews" because it is blatantly false

Why do you think it is blatantly false? Hitler and most if not all of his followers were raised as Christian.

David

Print the post Back To Top
Author: FULLERKZ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82436 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/1/2002 2:13 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 6
"Why do you think it is blatantly false? Hitler and most if not all of his followers were raised as Christian."


Because what you are raised as and what you are can be two different things. Within Mein Kamp is the whole concept of Aryan superiority which Hitler was into at a very young age. True Christians believe in salvation for the Jew.



Print the post Back To Top
Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82439 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/1/2002 7:39 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 3
<<I am pretty sure. I like the part about not incriminating most for the actions of a few. This needs repeating. I suppose he was being cynical, still I would never state "Christians killed 6 million Jews" because it is blatantly false and I doubt many Jews would rec it. Must be a sensitivity thing.
>>

I would agree that Christians did not kill 6 million jews, however I would bet that 80% of the Nazis were also members of a church. Probably 80% of the guards at the death camps were also members of a church.
So if we want to blame mideast terrorism or 9/11 on the moslem religion because most of the perpetrators attended a mosque at some point then it is just as valid to blame the holocaust on Christians.

If "christian" nations had went on a crusade to save the jews it may have been different. I read in one place the reason the holocaust did not get more publicity during the war is that the American government did not want any pro German sentiment. The anti jewish propaganda was strong in this country too especially before WW2. Groups like the KKK in the south and midwest.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82443 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/1/2002 10:27 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
Because what you are raised as and what you are can be two different things. ...True Christians believe in salvation for the Jew.

Yes, the 'True Scotsman' argument. I'll accept it as valid in this case. Now, can you not also see that the Muslims creating the problems are not 'True Muslims'?

David

Print the post Back To Top
Author: FULLERKZ Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82446 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/1/2002 11:11 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
"Now, can you not also see that the Muslims creating the problems are not 'True Muslims'?"

Okay.



Print the post Back To Top
Author: Urban123 Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82447 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/1/2002 11:18 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5
Can't we consider the fact that the regime (i.e., the Allies) that did the most to topple Hitler's Nazi Germany was predominately comprised of Christians as well? At least, I would assume that in the late 1930s-early 1940s, most in the US would have identified themselves as believers in Jesus Christ. Therefore, Christians defended, fought and died to protect and liberate Jews.

So most Moslems are not anti-Christian terrorists. I can certainly agree with that statement. The thing that I can't fathom is how weak the anti-terrorism activity and rhetoric is from the Moslem community. If we want to infiltrate and destroy terrorism cells around the globe, it seems the most effective way to do the infiltrating would be to use other Moslems: not blonde haired/ blue eyed boys from Kansas. (Rant, rant, rant. Sorry. Please keep your flames to a minimum!)

An additional point: we could no doubt find hundreds of categories and/ or groups that the perpetrators fit neatly into, and then paint everyone within that group with the same taint:
- The Nazi movement was German in origin and composition. Germans killed 6M Jews. Therefore, all Germans are evil.
- The German Army was predominately male. Men killed 6M Jews. Therefore, all men are evil... wait a minute... all men ARE evil! But then, so are women. Humans are evil... without Christ anyway. Oh, well. {;~ )




Print the post Back To Top
Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82449 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/1/2002 3:59 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 6
<<At least, I would assume that in the late 1930s-early 1940s, most in the US would have identified themselves as believers in Jesus Christ. Therefore, Christians defended, fought and died to protect and liberate Jews.>>

Sorry this is revisionist history I think?

I know of no special effort made my England or US to save the Jews. They were trying to defeat hitler and the Nazis. The few jews whom survived were barely alive when liberated. But the war was not fought for the purpose of liberating the jews. Hitler at one time tried to get them to emigrate but the US and England would not give visas or any other country. So the Nazis developed another solution to the Jewish problem!

So no the only Christian nations that I am aware of that made a special effort to save the Jews were Denmark and Sweden. Read the story of the Danish Jews sometime. Only a few went to the death camps. The Danes made the effrot to get them to Sweden and from what I understand all got their property back after the war. No the US and England have no honor when it comes to the holocaust. The Danes and Swedes do. I have forgotten the name of the Swedish diplomat who save so many in eastern Europe. He disappeared near the end of the war? Raoul Wallenberg -- Swedish diplomat




Print the post Back To Top
Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82456 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/1/2002 9:20 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 6
"So if we want to blame mideast terrorism or 9/11 on the moslem religion because most of the perpetrators attended a mosque at some point then it is just as valid to blame the holocaust on Christians."

This whole analogy is completely inapt. When the truth about what was happening in the death camps was revealed to the world the reaction throughout Christendom was shock and horror. Religious leaders in the Christian community were virtually unanimous in condemning the holocaust atrocities.

When the truth about the 9/11 terrorism was revealed to the world much of the Moslem world celebrated. I didn't hear very much in the way of Moslem religious leaders condemning the actions of the terrorists. People were dancing in the street with joy.

The contrast between the reaction of the worldwide Christian community to the holocaust outrage and the reaction of the worldwide Muslim community is stark. In neither case was the reaction unanimous, but the portion of the Moslem community that greeted the 9/11 atrocity with approval was far more significant that the portion of the Christian community that greeted the holocaust with approval. And in the Christian community, those who showed any approval of the holocaust were quickly made into pariahs and outcasts. That cannot be said of those in the Moslem community who viewed the 9/11 atrocity with approval.

God bless,

Rich

Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: lhaselden Big funky green star, 20000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82459 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/2/2002 12:03 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 7
<<When the truth about the 9/11 terrorism was revealed to the world much of the Moslem world celebrated. I didn't hear very much in the way of Moslem religious leaders condemning the actions of the terrorists. People were dancing in the street with joy.
>>
In the 3 largest moslem countries on this planet the leaders of the nation condemned it and flowers were ut at the gate of the US embassy.

None of these are arab nations. Indonesia, India, and Pakistan. The leaders of Iran, Egypt, Morroco and Turkey all condemned it. You are confusing Islam with Arab. That is like confusing Christianity with the race of Jew. You forget that several Moslem nations supported our efforts in Afghanistan. All the nations bordering afghanistan are Moslem except for a small border with China but even that part of China is predominately Moslem. All of these countries lent some support for our efforts even Iran. Iran gave permission for air rescue of downed flyers.

<<
When the truth about what was happening in the death camps was revealed to the world the reaction throughout Christendom was shock and horror. Religious leaders in the Christian community were virtually unanimous in condemning the holocaust atrocities.
>>
And since both the US, England, and Russia knew about the death camps in 1940 or 1941. Why did they not make it public until 1945? When the war was over and the pictures could be shown of the horrors that had occurred. But even then much of that footage was just of the death camps and did not single out the Jews. And to be honest the Nazis killed a lot of people not just Jews. And by then anyone who had spoken up in favor of anything the Nazis did would have have been kicked out of town or lynched.
Some people still deny the holocaust happened however!



Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Print the post Back To Top
Author: cyberisme Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82463 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/2/2002 1:01 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
Some people still deny the holocaust happened however!

Oh yes - and one of those people is alive and well and living in my home town and was a huge topic of discussion during english lit debates on WW2 while in high school and college.

C.


Print the post Back To Top
Author: jrdown Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82464 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/2/2002 1:08 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
C ~

Oh yes - and one of those people is alive and well and living in my home town and was a huge topic of discussion during english lit debates on WW2 while in high school and college.

Mr. Duke, Grand Master of the KKK, used to live in the town of Fallbrook, California ........ not 6 miles from my town. Fortunately he moved about 5 years ago.


Robyn



Print the post Back To Top
Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82470 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/2/2002 11:22 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 17
People were dancing
in the street with joy.


This is really overblown. Footage that was shown on CNN (I think) was set up; much of it was not shot after 9/11, but was footage from a previous celebration.

In Patterson, NJ, a town with a large Muslim population, there were widespread stories about the Muslims celbrating after the attacks, going wild in the streets. There were even retaliations against Muslim businessmen in the next few days. But according to the police chief, there were no widespread celebrations; there were no pictures in the newspaper, nor any news accounts. It was never mentioned on the news. In fact, no witnesses can be found; everyone was told by a friend.

I'm sure there was some celebration among many Muslims when they heard of the attacks. In many cases, I suspect that they were not aware of the enormity of the event. (Heck, it took a while for it to sink in to me, and I could see it from my house). Many of these people probably thought that the US was given a bloody nose; they didn't think of all the innocent (including Muslim) deaths until later. The same thing is common in the US; I remember people cheering when we bombed Iraq; I also saw people that were happy about bombing Afghanistan. It's not a pretty thought, but we (as a society) are as guilty as they.

David

Print the post Back To Top
Author: mapletree3 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82472 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/2/2002 1:21 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 4
This is really overblown. Footage that was shown on CNN (I think) was set up; much of it was not shot after 9/11, but was footage from a previous celebration.

I wish this were true, but it was not.

I followed the rumors as they unfolded eright after the attacks. The allegation that the footage was filmed previously came from a single source who later retracted his allegation when confronted with contraindicatory evidence. One of the people in the footage he was talking about was wearing a World Cup shirt that was made after the event he thought he recognized (don't know how to say this, but I'm sure you'll get it) people celebrating for). By that time, the allegation had already spread all over the internet of course. Too late.

Here's a debunker page:

http://www.snopes2.com/

-mapletree




Print the post Back To Top
Author: rbednarski Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82480 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/2/2002 6:14 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 2
"Footage that was shown on CNN (I think) was set up; much of it was not shot after 9/11, but was footage from a previous celebration. "

Cite, please.

God bless,

Rich


Print the post Back To Top
Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82484 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/2/2002 10:54 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1
The allegation that the footage was filmed previously
came from a single source who later retracted his allegation when confronted with contraindicatory evidence.


Thanks mapletree. I guess there were just too many twists to this story; I thought I had heard the end of it. I guess not.

BTW, the link to get directly to the story in question is:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

David

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82494 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/3/2002 9:41 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 5

Why do you think it is blatantly false? Hitler and most if not all of his followers were raised as Christian.

David, there is a big difference in being raised as Christians and being a Christian

To be a Christian three things must be present: submitting to Jesus as Lord, trusting Jesus as Lord, and obeying Jesus as Lord. If you do not have love you cannot be doing any of these three.
EJ


Print the post Back To Top
Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82495 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/3/2002 9:56 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 8
David, there is a big difference in being raised as Christians and being a Christian

Just as there is a big difference between being raised a Muslim and actually following the basic tenets of the religion.

My point is that the Muslims in question no better representation of Islam than the Nazis are a representation of Christianity.

David

Print the post Back To Top
Author: ericjh Big red star, 1000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82496 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/3/2002 10:07 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 1

My point is that the Muslims in question no better representation of Islam than the Nazis are a representation of Christianity.

However, areas like the Philippines seem to testify to the negative.
Only time will tell. My hope is that you are correct.
EJ



Print the post Back To Top
Author: dcarper Big gold star, 5000 posts Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82499 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/3/2002 10:40 AM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
However, areas like the Philippines seem to testify to the negative.


Keep in mind that the stories that make the news are the exciting ones. No one ever reports on a man going to the mosque to pray; but let him do something out of the ordinary, and it gets attention.

There are certainly enough people supporting Bin Laden and other terrorists to be concerned about. But I don't think that it is proper to paint all Muslims or their religion with the same broad brush.

My hope is that you are correct.

Yeah, me too. Times like this are scary.

David



Print the post Back To Top
Author: mapletree3 Big gold star, 5000 posts Old School Fool Add to my Favorite Fools Ignore this person (you won't see their posts anymore) Number: 82501 of 195750
Subject: Re: Don't Shoot, I'm only the Messenger! Date: 6/3/2002 12:30 PM
Post New | Post Reply | Reply Later | Create Poll . Report this Post | Recommend it!
Recommendations: 0
BTW, the link to get directly to the story in question is:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm


Thanks, I thought I had posted it but I copied the wrong URL, I guess!

-mapletree, needs to proofread better

Print the post Back To Top
UnThreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (23) | Ignore Thread Prev Thread | Next Thread
Advertisement